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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/28/2006 7:46:10 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

Overall the map looks very good. Somewhere way back someone suggested dropping "Glacier" hexes as a new terrain type and representing them by ringing the entire hex with Alpine hexsides; (and maybe desert mountain inside?). I really liked that idea; adding a new terrain type for so few hexes doesn't seem worthwhile.

The new "Tundra" hexes are a tough consideration. In my limited readings about the Axis campaign for Murmansk (one of the "Forgotten Axis" issues of Strategy & Tactics from the mid-90s) it is clear that the hex in between Petsamo and Murmansk was one of the most unique terrains covered in WWII - a not quite flat but not hilly plain of pure rock almost. I can't recall the new definition for "Tundra" but giving it Desert effects for supply, swamp movement costs, and becoming clear in snow/blizzard would be a good start; it is good to keep it separate from how air factors affect regular woods hexes.

In current paper WiF using the Scandinavian map is somewhat pro-Axis as the Russians must commit forces up here if they wish to maintain the rail link to Murmansk but that is historical...the Finns cut it on occasion in the war; and anything that helps the Axis is good for the game. Moving to this scale on the "Scandinavian" map will make the Finnish ski divisions that much more potent as they will be more frequently in supply. This alone should lead more Russian players to demand the Borderlands. I'm not sure I quite follow giving city status to Tampere but not to Vyborg? (I thought Vyborg was the second largest Finnish city in 1939?) Making Vyborg a city again (it has been in previous editions of WiF) will further increase the vaule of the Borderlands to the Axis and make historical Russian activity here more likely.

The discussion on cities has Helsinki 1st, Turku 2nd, and Tampere 3rd in size. After Helsinki, every city in Finland is quite small to be considered a city in comparison to other cities on the European map.

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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/28/2006 8:23:42 PM

Ballista

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I have a good book on operations in the Far North (If I recall its called "Operations in the Far North 1940-1944") well as the Norway campaign, it also detailed the fighting around Murmansk and the Russian counter offenses to keep the area clear.

The supply line was very crucial- there was a very important bridge the Soviets kept bombing but missing. Eventually the embankment, weakened by the bombing slid down in the river taking the bridge and 300 yards of road with it....

It is a good read....

(in reply to trees trees)

Post #: 272

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/28/2006 8:35:44 PM

trees trees

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The discussion on cities has Helsinki 1st, Turku 2nd, and Tampere 3rd in size. After Helsinki, every city in Finland is quite small to be considered a city in comparison to other cities on the European map.

Maybe that list ranked them _after_ the loss of Viipurri / Vyborg? I thought I saw a passing reference to it as second largest in an otherwise brief discussion on the Winter War but my brain cells may be faulty here. Anyway probably only Helsinki rates city status.

But parking the Mannerheim HQ on the north shore of Lake Ladoga with the new scale should threaten the Murmansk rail line enough to make Russian demands on the Borderlands more common.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 273

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/29/2006 12:20:30 AM

Peter Stauffenberg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The discussion on cities has Helsinki 1st, Turku 2nd, and Tampere 3rd in size. After Helsinki, every city in Finland is quite small to be considered a city in comparison to other cities on the European map.

Maybe that list ranked them _after_ the loss of Viipurri / Vyborg? I thought I saw a passing reference to it as second largest in an otherwise brief discussion on the Winter War but my brain cells may be faulty here. Anyway probably only Helsinki rates city status.

But parking the Mannerheim HQ on the north shore of Lake Ladoga with the new scale should threaten the Murmansk rail line enough to make Russian demands on the Borderlands more common.

Look here for info about Viipuri:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyborg

You were right that Viipuri used to be Finland's second largest city until the war with Russia in 1940. In 1939 Viipuri had 80.000 inhabitants. During the Winter War about 70.000 of Viipuri's population was evacuated and the city has not even today regained it's former size. In 2002 79.000 inhabitants were living in Russian Vyborg.

So I think it's possible to place a city in Vyborg. How will this affect game play after Russia demands the borderlands? And how does it affect the likelihood of Russia starting the Winter War?

(in reply to trees trees)

Post #: 274

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/29/2006 12:35:37 AM

Froonp

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quote:

So I think it's possible to place a city in Vyborg. How will this affect game play after Russia demands the borderlands? And how does it affect the likelihood of Russia starting the Winter War?

No it's not possible.
A city must have about 100,000 inhabitants to appear on the WiF FE map. This is the rule of thumb that ADG used on the WiF FE Map.

So Vyborg is too small.

Tampere is too small too I believe to appear on the map, and Tampere should not be on the map.
It is on the map because of a designer's (Steve's) decision only.
It was voted 50% YES / 50% NO (6 voters), and Steve decided it would be on the map so that Finland had more than 1 city (1 city only is awkward for reinforcements placement). I was against.

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)

Post #: 275

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/29/2006 5:33:26 AM

composer99

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

[...]

The new "Tundra" hexes are a tough consideration. In my limited readings about the Axis campaign for Murmansk (one of the "Forgotten Axis" issues of Strategy & Tactics from the mid-90s) it is clear that the hex in between Petsamo and Murmansk was one of the most unique terrains covered in WWII - a not quite flat but not hilly plain of pure rock almost. I can't recall the new definition for "Tundra" but giving it Desert effects for supply, swamp movement costs, and becoming clear in snow/blizzard would be a good start; it is good to keep it separate from how air factors affect regular woods hexes.

[...]

That makes sense for Tundra. It's a nasty mess. Good thing that operating in Tundra, except maybe for some movement and combat in Karelia/Lapland, is such an unlikely event. And yes, air units should have normal factors bombing tundra - there's not much in the way of tree cover there.

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Post #: 276

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/21/2006 1:02:33 PM

Norden_slith

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It is incredibly to the the details worked on here and seeing Denmark beeing - once again - beeing butchered beyond recognition. Denmark is part of Scandinavia and I have yet to see a game where Denmark looks like Denmark.

The problem here is of course the Belts (straits), the Sound (between Sweden and Denmark) and Limfjorden (the waterway dividing northern Jutland from the rest). I can see, its the Hex requirements that are responsibel for the butchering. But Jutland at least could look more real. Make Limfjorden a river, even if it is not, for practical purposes it is.

The islands? Well, guess it cant be helped really.

Norden

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Post #: 277

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/21/2006 4:43:59 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norden
It is incredibly to the the details worked on here and seeing Denmark beeing - once again -�beeing butchered beyond recognition. Denmark is part of�Scandinavia and I have yet to see a game where Denmark looks like Denmark.

The problem here is of course the Belts (straits), the Sound (between Sweden and Denmark) �and Limfjorden (the waterway dividing northern Jutland from the rest). �I can see, its the Hex requirements that are responsibel for the butchering. But Jutland at least could look more real. Make Limfjorden a river, even if it is not, for practical purposes it is.�

Well, I'm sorry about Denmark, but Denmark was already part of the WiF FE European map, so it was taken as is. The parts under revision in the other threads are only the parts that did not exist at European Scale in the WiF FE game.

(in reply to Norden_slith)

Post #: 278

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/21/2006 8:48:55 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norden
It is incredibly to the the details worked on here and seeing Denmark beeing - once again -�beeing butchered beyond recognition. Denmark is part of�Scandinavia and I have yet to see a game where Denmark looks like Denmark.

The problem here is of course the Belts (straits), the Sound (between Sweden and Denmark) �and Limfjorden (the waterway dividing northern Jutland from the rest). �I can see, its the Hex requirements that are responsibel for the butchering. But Jutland at least could look more real. Make Limfjorden a river, even if it is not, for practical purposes it is.�

The islands? Well, guess it cant be helped really.

Norden

Most of the differences here (but not all) are due to having to place terrain within the given hex grid size. A lot of the details concerning Denmark's islands really require a smaller hex grid (or no grid whatsoever) to model them well.

I am willing to make small changes here, but I am sensitive to Patrice's concern that we do not mess with the European map. It raises the spectre of hundreds of other (reasonable) changes being requested.

So ... how about these changes:
1 - Remove the land from the hex beneath the N in DENMARK; making it an all-sea hex.
2 - Reduce the size of the island that Frederickshaven occupies to two hexes, making the third hex (the SW one) part of the larger land mass.
3 - Make both hexes of Fred's island connect via straits to the same hex (SE and SW respectively).
4 - Make the hex where the Cop from Copenhagen sits part of the larger land mass - directly attached due west and connected via straits to the east and SE (the later is already true).

I am being careful here that a German leg infantry with a movement allowance of 4 and starting ni Germany can still move into Copenhagen without becoming disorganized - if all the hexes are empty.

This does not address your real problem (I expect) which is the placement of Copenhagen. Here the hex that C. truly sits in is shared with Sweden and Sweden has more of the land mass ni that hex. Hence the difficulty. The ADG geographer/artist/game designer trimmed Cop.'s island by about 25%, giving the entire hex to Sweden. I am sure that war's have been fought over less. If so, please invade Australia - not Hawaii or Marseilles.

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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/21/2006 9:57:42 PM

Froonp

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I don't think that modifying Denmark in any way will be welcomed by any WiF FE player.

This is a very bad idea, as Denmark sees a lot of action (mainly allies trying to open a new front in Europe by the side door), and crowded as it is already it will not be seen with a good eye if it is modified.
I for one, hate this.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 280

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 12:49:41 AM

Greyshaft

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I don't think that modifying Denmark in any way will be welcomed by any WiF FE player.
This is a very bad idea, as Denmark sees a lot of action (mainly allies trying to open a new front in Europe by the side door), and crowded as it is already it will not be seen with a good eye if it is modified. I for one, hate this.

I agree with Froonp on this point. Every WiF player has their favorite strategies and (IMHO) their first half dozen games of MWiF will be spent in trying out those strategies. Makes sense that when you are trying out a new environment (MWiF) you use the Test Plans that have worked so well for you in the past. If there are changes to the map then someone's Test plans will not work and they'll badmouth the game on that basis. I know the Pacific needed to be significantly changed because of map scale but I think Europe should stay the same as cardboard WiF.

... unless it is essential for some coding reason

... or unless it is to fix a previously acknowledged error which has broad community approval

... or unless I personally request the change

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Post #: 281

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 1:08:45 AM

Froonp

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To tell you the truth Greyshaft (welcome back

), a couple of bordermap European Map areas (at least 3 that I remember without thinking) were twicked a bit during my review, during your absence, we'll see if you find them

But these were really unimportant places that were badly done in the first place on the paper map to be able to be packed in the map.

Having MWiF was a chance to make these area more real.

(in reply to Greyshaft)

Post #: 282

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 2:47:08 AM

coregames

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I don't think that modifying Denmark in any way will be welcomed by any WiF FE player.

I agree; parts of the map already at the European scale should not be changed, even for increased realism. The market for this game will at first be veteran WiF players, and their reaction will be the impetus for further success with a wider customer base.

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Post #: 283

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 2:59:18 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: coregames

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I don't think that modifying Denmark in any way will be welcomed by any WiF FE player.

I agree; parts of the map already at the European scale should not be changed, even for increased realism. The market for this game will at first be veteran WiF players, and their reaction will be the impetus for further success with a wider customer base.

Ok. We'll stick with the status quo.

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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 5:26:33 AM

composer99

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Although I am more sympathetic to Norden's desire to see Denmark more accurately portrayed than perhaps Patrice is

, from the perspective of gameplay I would be inclined to agree that no changes should be made to Denmark.

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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 10:05:51 AM

Norden_slith

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Well, it hurts the Eye, these ADG people must have used a Mercator centered around Australia to produce this Denmark.

Sooo, we have a game that has changed a 100 times in order to get it more realistic, but the map is holy script? Yes, people have favored tactics, sure, until the next rule-change comes along, that is.

I'm living in Kopenhagen and come from Flensburg, a mile south of Denmark. What Im trying to say is: I hope they butcher your home too!

Look at Jutland, it looks like the waterlevel raised 10 meters!

Norden

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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 10:26:21 AM

Neilster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norden
Look at Jutland, it looks like the waterlevel raised�10 meters!

At the rate the Greenland and Antarctic icecaps are melting, this may well be an accurate depiction of Denmark soon.

Cheers, Neilster

(in reply to Norden_slith)

Post #: 287

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 10:47:09 AM

Norden_slith

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True, but in 1940 theres still some 65 years at least.

Norden

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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 11:43:43 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norden

True, but in 1940 theres still some 65 years at least.

Norden

My main problem with changes is that it is difficult to build a house on shifting sands. I have solidified as much as possible in regard to map, units, and rules. Indeed, that was the very first thing I did before signing a contract with Matrix to honcho this project. Now, there were some open issues: PBEM for instance. And the map.

It's the transition from the 5 maps in WIF FE at different scales to the unified world map at European scale that has been my biggest headache. Or you can say that problems are opportunities, and therefore this has been my biggest delight (though you would be wrong about that

).

So, with Patrice taking the lead, we have been reviewing the entire map - except the European portion which was transferred over intact from WIF FE. The sole except has been a couple of hexes in Sweden and Norway that warranted correction when the rest of those countries were linked up at the European scale.

I would say that the changes to Sweden, Norway, and Finland have consumed as much time and effort as the complete revamping of China - which grew in size times 6. At all times, we have been especially paranoid about distorting the game play from WIF FE. We check and recheck and ask for opinions of all the forum members. I doubt that we will get it perfectly correct, but that won't be from lack of honest effort on the part of numerous serious players.

There is also this desire to finish the game before most of us die from natural causes. At many points along the trail I have simply said 'No' and moved on. I am sure that everyone has at least one place where they are convinced I have made a bad decision. That can't be helped, so I do not lose any sleep over it. The analogy I maintain about the project is moving a reluctant and often stubborn elephant down a path that he does not want to take - trying to avoid the droppings as I go.

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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 12:01:18 PM

Norden_slith

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Hi Steve,
say what time is it, where you are right now?

I hear you and you are right, of course. Simple fact is, I'd love to say to my fellow gamers some day (in Denmark) "look what I did", you know how it is...

So, yes, finish it and never mind the many, many differing oppinions. Starting to correct Europe would be a pandoras box...
as has been said before.

Come to think of it, maybe it is because Im a geographer looking at his home btw...

Norden

< Message edited by Norden -- 9/22/2006 12:23:12 PM >

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Post #: 290

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 12:44:09 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norden
Hi Steve,
say what time is it, where you are right now?

I hear you and you are right, of course. Simple fact is, I'd love to say to my fellow gamers some day (in Denmark) "look what I did", you know how it is...

So, yes, finish it and never mind the many, many differing oppinions. Starting to correct Europe would be a pandoras box...
as has been said before.

Come to think of it, maybe it is because Im a geographer looking at his home btw...

Norden

I believe that Hawaii is either 11 or 12 hours earlier than Paris, depending on Day Lights Saving Time (which Hawaii doesn't observe). Europe's evening is Hawaii's morning of the same day.

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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/22/2006 8:38:51 PM

Plainian

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Norden I wouldn't feel too bad about Denmark. Scotland in WIF FE is pretty awful as well! Maybe there is a conspiracy against small countries! <g>
However best keep the lid on Mrs P's box.

Ian from 'bonnie' Dundee...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 292

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/25/2006 9:51:15 AM

Norden_slith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

Norden I wouldn't feel too bad about Denmark.�Scotland in WIF FE is pretty awful as well! Maybe there is a conspiracy against small countries! <g>
However best keep the lid on Mrs P's box.

Ian from 'bonnie' Dundee...

Hi Ian,
maybe we should make a club the "COGCMEC" or "club of geographically challenged minor European countries".

Cant remember the map, but I guess Greece is a candidate for membership. Also countries with no coastlines like Luxenburg (probably a single hex) might be interested!

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Post #: 293

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 9/27/2006 1:31:32 AM

Plainian

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I think the COGCMEC Club would be a pretty small club.....2 members. Plus since there is an obvious conspiracy nobody would like us! <BG> By the way I had a go at making up a better map of Scotland in PS Pro. It was actually harder than I thought. I do not envy Froonp's job of converting the other maps!

After my attempt I then realised that the WIF FE map wasn't too bad after all! Will post my map when I find out how you do this. If there are any more Scottish lurkers then they can criticise.

Apologies for side tracking the discussion on Scandanavia.

(in reply to Norden_slith)

Post #: 294

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/5/2006 10:59:36 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here is a tease. The new coastal bitmaps for Scandinavia have arrived.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 295

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/5/2006 11:01:30 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Ok. Here is the real deal. This is still a little rough around the edges. But not bad for a first pass.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 296

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/5/2006 11:06:43 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Narvik to Lulea to Petsamo. I am testing a new color for the rivers. It is darker and matches the swamp color more closely. The river names are still using the old color (a brighter blue). If you look closely you will see that some of the tips of the lakes are missing. That is my fault. I need to add to list of the hexes that have river/lake graphics, even though they do not have rivers or lakes are far as game play is concerned.

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Post #: 297

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/5/2006 11:10:42 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Murmansk to Archangel with the Kola Peninsula and most of Karelia.

I need to fix the join between the coastal hexes and the all sea hexes. There is a black edge being given to the coastal hexes. It shouldn't be there, instead the coastal hex color should blend smoothly into the all sea hexes.

Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 298

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/5/2006 11:13:48 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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The Baltic (I guess we should add the name a second time for the northern portion) and the lakes of Finland.

Lakes Lagoda and Onega need work. There is also the problem around Aland and Turku.

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Post #: 299

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/5/2006 11:20:09 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Last in the series. We are having a problem where the European map joins the Scandinavian map. This area received a lot of discussion in the forum and we will straigten it out. The problem is merely one of getting the graphics to look right - we already are completely decided on what the terrain features will be for game play.

We have some of the old river hexes still being drawn though the river bitmaps are in place (Dalalven). That is almost certainly a data problem.

If you look closely at Lake Vattern, you can see the two colors for the river/lake outlines. I think I prefer the new one (darker blue) that Rob suggested.