RE: AAR swift vs fochinell

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich >> RE: AAR swift vs fochinell

Page: << < prev 4 5 [6] 7 8 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/6/2007 9:23:08 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

10th November 1943. A: 119/2662 (30aa), X: 113/1177 (1 grd). A day of monster attrition from a relatively medium-sized allied effort

MTO: Sees most of the action, centering around the 15th AF raid to Bolzano RR which attracts the major LW response as it approaches the northern Adriatic coast east of Venice. The LW go for the bombers, in one attack taking 5 B-24J down in one pass

but ignore the fighters and the undistracted P-38L's go to work; 3/238 f, 31/96 b, 78 e/a claimed. Bombing results are nil, but the attrition makes it all workwhile. Several P-38H groups in the 12th AF do some supporting sweeps, and the 33rd FG hits paydirt, claiming 34 109's landing at Aviano AF

Oh yeah, baby! On the other hand, the tactical forces miss most of the action and lose several bombers to flak, although the MAC Corsican Spit IX wings escorting Mitchells pick off some straggling 109's returning to base at Reggio Emilia.

ETO: The tables are reversed; two 8th AF B-17G raids to RUBBER sites around Cologne attract almost no opposition; 0/238 f, 19/328 b, 10 e/a. The 9th AF Marauders supporting are ignored, while the 2TAF Mitchells attacking the Philips ARM factory next to Eindhoven hit major resistance; 33/122 f, 7/72b, 21 e/a. 22 Spit Vb and 14 Spit IX lost, although a couple of supporting sweeps are cancelled due to weather.

BC have 4 Group hitting Koblenz for a reasonably concentrated raid, only losing 2/216 Halifaxes and NI's getting 3 110's returning to Florennes in return. In total Werner lost 76 pilots KIA and one more MIA - an excellent result even if it cost me some valuable B-24's and reduced group morale for a few turns.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 8/7/2007 10:15:18 AM >

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 151

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/8/2007 11:46:17 AM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

11th November 1943. A: 29/1090 (13aa), X 37/351 (24 grd). A useful day of moderate strafing as the bombers are grounded by weather.

MTO: FB strikes around Sibenik and a P-38H strafe to Imotski AF; the usual sort of activity over the Adriatic, and a MAC P-40 strafe of Grosetto and a 12th AF P-47C strafe of Airasca AF in the north. The MAC Mitchells visit Florence and the 12th AF B-26's Reggio Emilia RR, but otherwise a very quiet turn with some small skirmishing.

ETO: Some P-47 strafes of Twente and Venlo pay off, with (I suspect) a Gruppe of Bf-110G-4's at Venlo hit by the 354th FG. 9 P-47D's lost, but the losses are worth it judging by the ground total this turn.

BC: 5 Group hit Falkenberg RR south of Berlin for 4/312 Lancs lost in what looks like a decent raid, with over 200 bombloads in the city area. The NI's claim 8 110's and a couple of Wilde Sau 190's.

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 152

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/9/2007 11:19:02 AM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

12th November 1943: The Battle of Brunswick. A:163/2025 (18aa), X: 111/1403 (1 gd). Main types lost include 19 Spit Vb, 9 Spit IX, 20 P-38L, 22 P-47D and 71 B-17F. More of that lovely attrition

MTO: A rare rest day due to cloud cover.

ETO: Major effort from the 8th AF to factories around Brunswick (Salzgitter PORT, Luther AFAC and Bussing NAG EFAC) attracts considerable LW response. Despite no resistance before bombing, only the Salzgitter forces does serious damage to their target. Then a massive air battle erupts between Brunswick the Dutch border as the Zerstorers come up to play with the Jagdwaffe, and inflict substantial casualties with repeated attacks. The escorts are overwhelmed, but even then some of them seem to think their escort duties have been outsourced to somebody else. Particularly disappointing was the the combat debut of the P-51B with the 4th FG, who get two kills for one loss.

Totals for the 8th are 31/467f, 71/384b and 121 e/a claimed.

The supporting tactical raids to a Ruhr STEEL FAC (9th AF B-26's) and Maastricht RR (2TAF Mitchells) attract substantial opposition from the fighters in Belgium, France and Holland. The Spit pilots see most of the combat and generally give as well as they get, for a score of 23/295f, 3/71b and 26 e/a. Some minor strikes by Typhoons on industry in Belgium go well, while some low-level Mossie strikes are less effective.

BC: 6 Group hit Hannover, losing 2/288 Halifaxes. While the NI pilots fail to score for once, one Halifax rear-gunner earns himself a DFM by damaging a 110G-4 which crashes shortly afterwards.

PR also reveals Hamm and Falkenberg RR at 99%. That's what I'm talking about

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 153

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/11/2007 6:38:14 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

13th November 1943: A 44/175 (12aa), X 9/569 (0 gd).

Some strafes in the MTO fail to catch anything, and 16 P-40's and 16 P-38H's bite the dust. Oh well, plenty of them in stock.

14th November 1943: A: 76/2446 (22aa), X: 52/639 (20 gd).

MTO: The main activity is another 15th AF raid to RR in northern Italy, this time Trento, except it only catches some Axis fighters returning to base from clashing with the tactical strikes. No fighters and only 1 B-24J lost, so I'm happy enough even though the attrition is limited.

ETO: The same dynamic in the west; two forces of 100 B-17F hit Duisberg PORT and Guttehoffnungs STEEL. They do some useful damage, but OKL ignore them (1/325 f, 2/200 b and 0 e/a) as well as the supporting 9th AF B-26 strike and goes for the 2TAF Mitchells, who for once do crippling damage to Kattendijk PORT. The Spits do less well than on the 11th, and lose 35/154 f, 4/57 b and only claim 15 e/a in return. The Spitfire attrition is getting a little too high again, and while I'm normally happy to see OKL dissipate their energies against the tactical forces while the strategic bombers get through unopposed, I may have to rest the Spits for a few days or at least scale back their effort

.

BC: 1 Group hit Schweinfurt, losing 7/244 Lancasters and doing some concentrated bombing of the city. No NI victims again, so I may need to look again at active NJG bases and check when Werner is sending them up

; only a couple of gruppen active this time. The Mossies hit Berlin yet again (0/23) while 205 Group hit Bucharest, losing 1/172 Halifaxes & Liberator D's.

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 154

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/12/2007 5:04:31 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

15th November 1943: A: 74/1939 (20aa); X: 50/663 (5gd). Some useful attrition in a turn where I expected a lot of weather cancellations. Still limited-scale activity, though.

MTO: 15th AF to RR target in northern Italy again, this time Venice; 4/144 f, 4/96 b, 24 e/a. The 57th FG P-47C's do some useful work on a supporting sweep, destroying 6 Bf 109's RTB'ing at Vicenza AF.

ETO: 8AF attack Ruhr STEEL targets, but attract no resistance. 1/336 f, 4/128 b, 1 e/a. This time the 2TAF Mitchells evade major contact and hit Interbrabant POWER hard, while the 9AF Marauders en route to Brussels RR see most of the action, losing 5 B-26's to two passes by different Gruppen in JG 2

Ouch! However, the P-47's and Spits fight back - 19/127 f, 17/64 b and 24 e/a claimed.

BC: 3 Group raid cancelled due to weather.

But, to be fair, BC has done OK aside from the spate of "lead group only" raids, and I really should have had more cancellations in the prevailing weather.

16th November 1943: A: 4/358 (2 aa), X: 14/40 (0 gd). Almost all SAS losses this turn. Poor Werner

Bad weather limits significant activity to BC alone.

BC: 4/264 Lancasters and Stirlings to Bremen, and 0/24 Mossies to Berlin. 3 Wilde Sau lost RTB'ing.

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 155

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/13/2007 12:16:11 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

17th November 1943. A: 20/687 (10 aa), X: 17/615 (5 gd). A relatively quiet turn.

MTO: Some light tactical strikes and sweeps, one of which hits the freeze-ray and then attracts all the interceptors from northern Italy. Still, losses are easily manageable.

ETO:

BC: 4 Group hit Bonn; well, they try to, but more than half of them hit a decoy site north of the city.

18th November 1943. A: 354/3507 (57 aa), X: 199/2893 (6 gd). Yee-hah!

At last, some major activity; almost a maximum effort by the 8th AF. 205 B-17's lost in total, but 121 Axis pilots killed in return.

MTO: The usual B-26 and Mitchell tactical strikes supporting the 15th AF B-24's, with another P-38H sweep to Aviano in support doing well catching some RTB 109's.

ETO: Major attacks by the 8th AF, timed to try and exploit OKL's recent concentration on returning 8th AF raids to sneak some more raids into the Reich at widely-spaced points.

1st group consists of 300 B-17G's with full escort routed south of the Ruhr hitting targets around Frankfurt - Agomer and Rohm RUBBER as well as Hoechster CHEM. As per normal Werner sends his interceptors up to attack on the return leg as the supporting tatical strikes (9AF Marauders & 2TAF Mirchells) appear. 33/528 f, 83/300 b and 150 e/a claimed. The tactical raids do little - 2TAF with 2/306 f 0/71b 2 e/a and 9th AF losing too many bombers for too few claims with 0/141 f, 21/64 b 13 e/a.

Then a second raiding force of B-17F's head for a Ruhr port across southern Holland, only escorted by FC Spit Vb sqns. While the raid avoids substantial resistance, it misses the primary and only hits targets of opportunity on the way out. It also loses a few Spit Vb's when the Axis manage to react.

27/67 f, 12/160 b and 7 e/a.

Meanwhile a third raiding force of unescorted B-17F's, routed out over the north sea to hopefully delay their appearance on the radar screen and mix their radio activity in with the early force, attempts to hit Hamburg port. While the timing was good, and only a couple of NJG units make contact before it reaches Hamburg, again the weather frustrates and only targets of opportunity get hit and the raiding force gets massacred on the way out. 109/256 b, 76 e/a.

BC: 5 Group go for the AGFA CHEM plant in northern Berlin. My raid replay gives out before they get there, but the raid report and area damage indicates they did hit the target area for 3/334 b while another Mossie raid hits Berlin city centre for 0/23 b.

In total the escorting fighters lost relatively few - 20 P-38L and 9 P-47D as well plus 28 Spit Vb and 2 Spit IX. But the 8th AF escorts were particularly disappointing, doing little to stop concentrated Zerstorer attacks on the return leg of the Frankfurt force. The plan of attack was bold, but to be honest it didn't pay off in terms of bombing damage, with only the Frankfurt force doing anything useful. Overall it was a reasonable attritional exchange, but overall Axis losses as a percentage of their record sortie total are disappointing, while mine hit the 10% level I wanted to impose on the Axis. Overall I'd have to define it as a limited defensive success - although still an expensive one.

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 156

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/14/2007 11:39:15 AM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

19th November 1943. A: 24/1500 (12 aa); X: 5/118 (0 gd). Back to the usual routine

MTO: The usual 15th AF B-24 raid on northern Italian RR, this time Trieste, with supporting tactical MB strikes. Ineffective bombing and no LW resistance.

ETO: A 9th AF sweep and some Typhoon attacks on Belgian industry, otherwise pretty quiet.

BC: 6 Group hit Hamburg for 4/288 Halifaxes lost. Seems like a reasonable raid. NJG quiet again.

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 157

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/14/2007 2:00:41 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

a good 3 months, how the score, how the losses and such ?

_____________________________

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 158

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/14/2007 2:46:25 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

HS,

Losses and score on 18th November 1943 were - AS 2, IND 13, TERROR 12.

A: 4,868/123,110 (1350 aa) vs X: 2,616/46,217 (121 gd). Strat bombing score 6,663 and terror 125,840.

More stats and graphs (yes, graphs!) after the 30th November 1943 turn.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 8/14/2007 2:47:37 PM >

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 159

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/15/2007 5:38:33 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

A whole series of turns where attrition in the ETO is fatally undercut by the weather.

20th November 1943. A: 32/668 (24 aa), X: 16/313 (4 gd).

MTO: Tactical strikes, mostly on coastal AF's. Nothing too exciting going on. Another LGO raid by the 12th AF Bostons. I think I've had more than a dozen of these by now.

ETO: Bad weather over the Channel.

21st November. A: 37/600 (14 aa), X: 2/435 (0 gd).

MTO: A wide range of fighter sweeps achieve little except for meeting OKL's demands for ALUM from smelting down wrecked P-38's (12 H and 10 L lost).

ETO: Weather again.

BC: 1 Group to Hamburg Elbe PORT, good raid with most of the bombloads on target.

22nd November. A: 50/1812 (20aa), X: 13/616 (12 gd).

MTO: Tactical raids and sweeps by the 15th, 12th and MAC. More P-38's lost (18 H, 5 L)

ETO: Tactical raids and a Typhoon strike following an 8th AF raid on Dusseldorf-Rhine PORT which attracts zero resistance - 0/262 f, 1/159 b, 0 e/a.

BC: 3 Group hit Wuppertal for a concentrated raid, but takes more than the usual minimal losses - 10/264 b. A couple of NJG units actually take off and score a couple of kills for once. 8 Group send two Mossie forces to try some Oboe bombing on the two Emden ports. To my suprise, most of the bombloads hit the target area, but I doubt any serious damage was done.

23rd November. A: 27/911 (18 aa), X: 11/353 (1 gd).

MTO: Didn't take any notes for this one, so presumably nothing exciting going on. I should check the save game, as the sortie count is high enough for a typical 15/12/MAC tactical day.

ETO: Tactical and sweeps - the 358th FG's P-47D's catch a few RTB's at Creil AF.

BC: 4 Group go to Willhelmshaven and report all their bombloads within the city area. The NJG are in hiding as usual.

24th November. A: 50/1473 (29 aa), X: 46/435 (19 gd).

MTO: A deeper than usual penetration by the 15th AF heads west after going past Venice all the way to Turin RR, with the supporting 12th AF P-38H sweeps and B-26B raid (2/96 f 3/64b 17 e/a) taking most of the action. OKL attempt to concentrate their interceptors near Metato AF on the return leg to attack the Liberators en route home when the escorts depart (good ol' bingo fuel bug), but to my suprise it doesn't pay off - a few go down, but Werner claims the fighters break off early due to fuel and fatigue rather than simple cowardice.

ETO: A token sweep by the 9th AF Thunderbolts again. I reckon this catches 4 Bf 110 G-4 at Florennes AF, so it was better than nothing. Damn weather.

BC grounded by weather, so 205 Group go to Vienna. Bombing not particularly good, hitting one FAC and a suburb as well as the city area, but only one squadron hit the fields, so not too bad overall I suppose.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 8/15/2007 5:47:08 PM >

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 160

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/15/2007 6:37:35 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

25th November 1943: A77/1490 (39 aa), X: 29/917 (13 gd).

MTO: On their third or fourth attempt, the 15th AF B-24J's finally hit Venice RR. No action there (0/207 f, 1/96 b, 0e/a), with what little there is taking place against the supporting sweeps and strikes.

ETO: Yet more low cloud means Allied Supreme HQ resort to a major series of sweeps with the 8th AF fighters. Normally I avoid using them, as I reckon the lower serviceability, increased fatigue and abysmal morale hits caused by strafing anything with an AA defence more formidable than a Volksturm pensioner with a Luger mean ineffective escorts when Werner's pampered, rested JG units finally are allowed out to play. But I've had enough of the weather enforcing inactivity and reducing the attrition. Cut to the chase - 38/432 f lost, for only 17 e/a claims in air combat. Gnnngh...

Overall I lose 13 P-38H, 20 P-38L, 7 P-47C and 17 P-47D with no bombing damage to make it worthwhile.

BC: Grounded. That's how

the weather is.

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 161

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/15/2007 6:57:22 PM

wernerpruckner

Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

Gavin seems to be grumpy - he will be grumpier after he sees the next turn

_____________________________

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 162

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/15/2007 7:44:24 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

26th November 1943. A: 91/1549 (20 aa), X: 38/1055 (4 gd)

Grumpy? Moi?

MTO: Some small-scale strafes of coastal AF's with the P-40's getting massacred as per usual.

ETO: Risking the inevitable "cancellation-leaving-the-sweeps-to-get-butchered", LGO, and "delayed-escort" delights, the 8th AF take a chance on a double B-17F raid to transport targets around Cologne. To my suprise, the bombers get there along with the first wave of escorts, but then Werner's secret weather ray designed by von Braun strikes again, and the Forts miss their primaries and secondaries, and then scatter their bombs on targets of opportunity all the way back from Cologne to Eindhoven. The remaining escorts then have hard time as the LW appear as usual on the return leg to feast on the stragglers and flak cripples. 10/444 f 48/320 b 39 e/a. Pants.

They also do a "return over enemy coast", but fair play to Wener for ignoring this (they still lose 2 to Flak over Munchen Gladbach and get several crashes as a consequence - I need less incompetant minions).

One of the 9th AF sweeping groups is down to 16 operational Thunderbolts even before their mission. Hmmm. Maybe time for a rest day.

BC: 5 Group Lancasters to Merseberg. Concentrated raid until the last stage, when 64 bombloads go astray. 6/352 b. A few NJG appear on the return leg, but lose 3 of their own. OKL seem to think this represents some kind of tactical victory, which only goes to show how far the NJG have declined.

Another Oboe-mossie raid on Handels Hafen PORT seems to go well. Are these doing any damage, Werner?

< Message edited by fochinell -- 8/16/2007 11:03:04 AM >

(in reply to wernerpruckner)

Post #: 163

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/15/2007 7:48:17 PM

wernerpruckner

Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

26th November

weather turn

only two recce missons done by Gavin.

3 losses due to SAS raids ( one Fw190A and two Bf109G-6 )

_____________________________

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 164

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/16/2007 11:09:55 AM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

28th November 1943. A: 33/1273 (6 aa), X: 11/171 (0 gd).

MTO: Weather.

ETO: With weather closing out Holland and western Germany, the 8th AF hit the Paris FACS for 0/242f 1/191b 0e, supported by 9th AF Marauders to Versailles RR and 2TAF Mitchells to Creil AF as well as a Typhoon and Mossie strike on FACs in the Seine valley. The 2TAF raid sees the only resistance, with the Spitfires proving to be almost as passive as usual - 9/169f 19/72b 11e. Other than that, the 8th AF bombing is good, and all three targets suffer substantive damage.

BC: 6 Group to Duisburg, 3/264 Halifax II's. A reasonable raid, with almost all bombs reported in the city area. No LW resistance as the NJG pilots cower in their bunkers, running their hands fondly over the decorations Reichmarshal Werner gave them back in the good old days before they had to stay on base to avoid public ridicule.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 8/16/2007 11:10:25 AM >

(in reply to wernerpruckner)

Post #: 165

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/20/2007 1:41:56 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

29th November 1943. A: 208/2219 (24 aa), X: 156/2132 (0 gd). Yee-hah!

This is the kind big battle I need to get the attrition I want, even if it costs me 100 B-17's. Again, I'm too close to 10% attrition and Werner too far from it to claim a clear success though. I wish he'd go back to taking on my fighters...

MTO: The usual tactical stuff, nothing exciting, and several raids and sweeps cancelled due to bad weather.

ETO: The weather breaks, and a major series of 8th AF attacks begin - 4 raids of 68 B-17G grouped together, hitting CHEM sites around Frankfurt and Ludwigshafen with full escort and support from the tactical forces. For once the LW rises to fight on the inbound leg, and interceptions begin over Holland. The two P-51 escort Groups are overwhelmed, but intermediate leg P-47 and target leg P-38 escorts even the odds a lttle as they enter the fight over stragglers on the route corridor. Overall B-17 losses are high - 53/594f 108/272b 175e - but the attrition is sustainable given that the Luftwaffe opted to fight a major battle and took major losses in return. The infernal Zerstorer take useful casualties - 62 Me410 alone go down, while the escorts lose 7 Mustang III, 13 P-51B, 21 P-47D, 15 P-38L, 6 Spit Vb and 10 Spit IX. The tactical raids come in to cover the German border/Belgian leg of the exit route, and miss most of the main fighting. The 9th AF get 5/130f 0/64b 6e and the 2TAF Mitchells get 7/253f 1/72b 6e.

BC: 1 Group take their Lancaster I's to Leipzig for 3/291b. Most of the bombloads hit the city, so it looks like an adequate raid. The NJG cower in their bunkers as usual.

205 Group make a very-long range attack on Gleiwitz-Hitler PORT, meeting no resistance 0/168b and managing to get 48 Lib D's and 24 Halifax II bombloads on target, which is good enough for non-H2S bombers at long range.

< Message edited by fochinell -- 8/20/2007 1:56:57 PM >

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 166

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/21/2007 2:59:34 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

30th November 1943. A: 64/1490 (26 aa), X: 21/711 (4 gd). Another weather-limited turn, with a good attrition ratio for Werner to close off a busier month. AS 2 IND 10 TERROR 13; so my SB score has slipped while terror has gone up by a predictable 1 point.

MTO: 15th AF to the BBFAC near Turin, doing little damage and not much fighting - 0/208f 5/96b 2e. Most of the activity centers around the supporting AF raids by fighters, with the 12th AF losing 23/144f 8e.

ETO: Another LGO raid by 3 Group to Dortmund.

Overall, a better month for me than October, with a similar effort to October (42,700 Allied sorties vs 41,900 in October) leading to an increase in allied losses from 1,400 to 2,000. However, this is repaid by an increase in Axis losses from a paltry 569 in October to a much more satisfying 1,225 in November. Even better is the increase in allied efficiency involved, as Werner's sortie total in October was 12,800, rising to 20,800 in November. Werner's loss rate in October was 4.4%, rising to 5.9% in November, while mine rose from a pathetic 3.4% to 4.7%. So Werner made a greater effort, costing me more aircraft, but costing himself more in the process. Notable features were the sudden increase in ground kills (from zero to 178) reflecting more sweeps now re-equipment has largely been achieved and a stack of expendable P-38H and Thunderbolts has built up to replace the dwindling stock of Spit Vb's, and the drop in AA casualties from a shocking 54% in October to a better 26% in November. More good news is Werner's pilot attriton rate, with October seeing a drop from 508 KIA plus 1 MIA in September to a miserable 389 KIA plus 2 MIA. November saw this rise to 747 KIA plus 25 MIA which is much better, although I really want to jack this up to 1,000 pilots lost per month to hammer him.

Werner's losses of single-engined day fighters doubled over the October figure (967 vs 485); more significantly, his Zerstorer losses more than tripled (to 181 vs 52), although this was from a minimal initial level and they cost me twice the loss in heavy day bombers to achieve this (555 vs 251).

Night bomber losses were fairly static (80 compared to 70 in October) while NJG losses rose from 24 twin-engined and 8 single-engined to 70 and 7 in November; although some of these were lost defending against daylight attacks, it indicates the level to which the intruders have claimed ascendency over the NJG with their losses against night bombers at a 1:1 ratio, at a cost of 10 NF's in October and 13 in November.

Medium bomber losses are up to 270 from 208 in October, but this is sustainable unlike September's loss rate of 370.

My fighter losses are up to 936 from 778, but this is easily sustainable now that re-equipment of the strategic forces with the P-47D, P-38L and P-51B is complete and much of the strain is still being borne by the expendible P-40's, P-47C's and P-38H's. P-47C losses rose from 32 to 105 this month, but I'm still sitting on a good reserve despite losing slightly more than new production over the month, while the P-47D can be seen to be carrying much of the load with losses rising from 77 to 192, but this is still out-stripped by new production.

The arrival of three P-39 sqns in MAC should help spread the attritional load further against my overall production. Meanwhile, Spit Vb attrition dropped from an unsustainable 212 in October to a high but bearable 162 in November; while the Spit IX losses dropped slightly from 94 to 85 which allowed a couple of new Spit Vb sqns in MAC to convert to the IX.

So much for the air losses; the bad news is the SB score, which declined from 5956 at the end of October to 5359 at the end of November. I'd like to blame this on the weather, but the score was sufficiently low to start with that I should have been able to keep it static without too much trouble. On the other hand, terror is up two points, from 116,661 to 130,979 which is pretty much what I expected given the bonus of constant 15th AF raids on Italian RR targets.

Here's the overall losses:

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by fochinell -- 8/21/2007 3:51:53 PM >

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 167

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/21/2007 3:02:18 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

And here's the aces list:

Attachment (1)

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 168

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/21/2007 3:20:42 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

And here's the units:

8th AF (15 grps B-17F, 10 grps B-17G plus 9 PFF dets; 7 grps P-47D, 4 grps P-38L, 2 grps P-51B, 2 sqn Mustang III); leading units are 78th FG (P-47D) 105 kills, 56th FG (P-47D) 95 kills, 355th FG (P-38L) 87 kills and 19 sqn (M.III) 42 kills.

9th AF (4 grps B-26B, 1 PFF det B-26G; 3 grps P-47D, 2 sqn Spit IX, 1 sqn M.III); 354th FG 25 kills, 358th FG 20 kills, 66 sqn (Spit IX) 22 kills.

2TAF (1 Hurri sqn, 9 Typhoon sqns, 5 Mossie F.B.VI sqn, 6 B-25D sqn; 10 Spit Vb sqn, 11 Spit IX sqn); 402 RCAF sqn 35 kills, 485 RNZAF sqn 25 kills, 416 RCAF sqn 24 kills (all Spit IX), 132 sqn with 23 kills is the leading Spit Vb unit (those guys should get a few DFC's for that).

FC (2 Typhoon, 2 Mossie dets; 4 Spit Vb sqns); 501 sqn with 3 kills, everybody else on 1.

15th AF (6 grps B-25J; 18 sqns P-38L); 95th FS 37 kills, 307th FS 35 kills and 48th FS 31 kills.

12th AF (8 grps A-20C - 4 grps of B-26B just finishing conversion; 4 grps P-47C and 4 grps P-38H); 33rd FG 30 kills, and 350th FG 15 kills (both P-38H), with 57th FG (P-47C) on 16 kills.

MAC (4 sqn Balt, 4 sqn B-25D, 1 sqn Mossie FB, 2 sqn Hurri; 2 sqn P-39 working up, 8 sqn P-40, 4 sqn Spit Vb, 14 sqn Spit IX). 145 sqn on 14 kills, 92 sqn on 12 and 1 SAAF, 93 and 111 all on 10 kills (all Spit IX), while 3 out of the 4 Spit Vb sqns (1435, 242, 4 SAAF) are all on 3. None of the P-39 or P-40 sqns have any kills yet, which is a bit weird in the case of the P-40's as they've usually picked off the odd straggler RTBing during their endless AF strikes by ths point.

On the night offensive, BC now have 4 sqn Mossie B.IV, 8 sqn plus 1 det of Lanc III, 27 sqn Lanc I, 4 sqn Halifax III, 17 sqn Halifax II and 3 sqn Stirling III. Of the 7 sqns plus 3 det Mossie NF.II active, 68 sqn still lead the way with 26 kills, 605 sqn with 16 and B/25 sqn with 13 kills. The two NF.XII sqns aren't even in double figures yet.

205 Group have 2 Halifax II sqns plus 1 det, and another five B-24D sqns. The four 12th AF Mossie NF.II sqns and MAC 1 sqn plus 1 det have achieved nothing, but have actually flown their first missions this month.

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 169

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/22/2007 12:42:01 PM

moose1999

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

Great read this AAR - keep going!
I've never played any of these games, but the losses during one day - hundreds of aircraft from each side - seem a little extreme to me.
Do the kill numbers in game reflect the historical numbers?

_____________________________

regards,

Briny

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 170

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/22/2007 2:04:06 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

Well, depends on your point of view, one thing with the game, a mistake can be hammered on more then the same would of been in real life, plus as it is a game, most combats are to the death, while in Real Life, alot of them, would of been "time to get out of here"

plus a lot of losses are really crashes (mostly due to combat) and most Airforces wouldn't count them as enemy losses, so something like the BB raid, 60 some bombers were lost, but a whole more returned to base, or close to base and crashed or landed but were then wrote off, as being too damaged to repair, but those are not counted as combat losses

but over all, game losses will look like they are higher then in real life, but most times, we can not get units to do as well as they did in real life, so it is a toss up

_____________________________

(in reply to moose1999)

Post #: 171

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/22/2007 8:18:52 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

Great read this AAR - keep going!

Why thank you. The cheque is in the post....

I've never played any of these games, but the losses during one day - hundreds of aircraft from each side - seem a little extreme to me.
Do the kill numbers in game reflect the historical numbers?

No, BTR is much bloodier - for example, Galland complained that the Americans were breaking the Jagdwaffe by inflicting 1,000 pilot casualties over a three-month period in the spring of 1944. In BTR I can inflict that kind of loss in a month and the LW can still come back for more, although eventually pilot quality declines.

But the real secret is that although both the allies and the Axis can sustain more than double, or even three times the historical loss rate they experienced, the dynamics are right; the LW are fighting from a losing position. Combat in BTR is bloodier than historical - Flak and combat should be less lethal to reflect that IMO - but the game modelling does not distort the real dynamic. The numbers may be higher than they were historically; but the trends are accurate - kill enough bombers, and the 8th and 15th AF can't disrupt Axis industry. Everything else is just the icing on the cake.

(in reply to moose1999)

Post #: 172

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/23/2007 6:34:12 PM

moose1999

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

Well, as long as the realistic dynamics are intact (the balance between losses and production values for example) I'm happy.

I suppose lowering the kill rates (and reworking all the dynamics of the game, for example factory and pilot output, as I'm sure would be the consequence of such a move) is not an option?

The only problem I see is this:
I love the ability to follow the progress of individual squadrons and pilots - and that the game provides individual names and stats for each of the thousands of pilots in the conflict is just great.
But doesn't the very high kill rates sort of compromise this (in my view very important) feature by constantly having your pilots killed and exchanged with new ones? Won't it hurt the immersion factor?
It sort of defeats the purpose of having all this wonderfull detail at pilot-level (stats that changes dynamically through the campaign).
But I've never played any of the games, of course, so I don't know if it's an issue at all...?

_____________________________

regards,

Briny

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 173

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/23/2007 6:57:17 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

well for pilots, we also have pilots on delay, so where we can, pilots who flew in 1945 won't be coming in, until late 44 or 45 (now some of them will come in earlier, just due to lack of better info on pilots)

now, I do know in a couple of my old games, Beckham was the leading Allied Ace at wars end (so I kind of have a soft spot for him)

and depending, the loss rate is not always so bad

plus one thing about losses in the game vs RL, we do not have the bombers and transport planes flying around or on the fields, which is where more then a few of the RL pilots cleaned up on

which we are trying to work on the numbers of pilots who end up getting killed, we would like to have a higher WIA/KIA result, then the game currently has now, along with a chance for the Allied pilots to also evade, but...

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

(in reply to moose1999)

Post #: 174

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/23/2007 7:01:57 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

grrrrr

one hassle with the old game, was HARD to get snap shots taken, it wants to show the screen under it, so not all of the right screen is shown in that shot

which, now it should show Beckham as the top Ace

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 175

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/23/2007 7:02:45 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

of course, it does not always look as good from the other side

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 176

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/26/2007 11:33:43 PM

Rebel Yell

Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Well, depends on your point of view, one thing with the game, a mistake can be hammered on more then the same would of been in real life, plus as it is a game, most combats are to the death, while in Real Life, alot of them, would of been "time to get out of here"

plus a lot of losses are really crashes (mostly due to combat) and most Airforces wouldn't count them as enemy losses, so something like the BB raid, 60 some bombers were lost, but a whole more returned to base, or close to base and crashed or landed but were then wrote off, as being too damaged to repair, but those are not counted as combat losses

but over all, game losses will look like they are higher then in real life, but most times, we can not get units to do as well as they did in real life, so it is a toss up

I've been thinking about this since it was posted.

Is it not possible to globally lower the lethality of combat? The vast majority of air combat in WWII was inconclusive.

I understand what you're having to account for, with damaged aircraft, write-offs etc, but I think its important for the system to generate plausible losses in aircraft and pilots. It will kill the immersiveness for me if bloodbaths are the norm. My .02 anyway. I'll gladly buy it whether this can be done or not, but I'll enjoy it a lot more if can.

_____________________________

I used to enjoy these forums. So many people that need the green dot now.

(in reply to Hard Sarge)

Post #: 177

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/27/2007 3:52:23 PM

Hard Sarge

Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline

the trouble is, to be honest, the combat model overall is too tame, there are alot of things that happened during the war, that we can't do or copy

now, that said, should the Allies lose 110 B-17s during the day, no, but will the player plot his raids the same way the real guys did ? again no

cardboard solders are easier to order to there death, then real ones

one trouble we have, is fighters if they get into trouble are not going to dive to the deck and get of out dodge, they are going to stick with the game plan

(same trouble most Flight Sim have, even outnumbered, or beaten, the enemy planes are going to stay in the fight)

_____________________________

(in reply to Rebel Yell)

Post #: 178

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/27/2007 4:33:48 PM

fochinell

Posts: 287
Joined: 11/19/2005
Status: offline

1st December 1943. A: 39/2894 (34 aa), X: 2/0 (1 gd)

Nil resistance from the LW today against some substantial strategic attacks.

MTO: The usual tactical raids in Italy to support a 15th AF attack on Pulverfabrik Skoda CHEM, which goes well - 99% damage for 0/240f 1/96b 0e. I really need those incoming B-24 groups to step up the bombing damage, though.

ETO: The 8th AF go for industrial sites around Hannover with three forces of 128 B-17's each. Continental RUBBER avoids damage, while Hannover Mitteland PORT gets 99% and Vereingte Deutsche ALUM gets 91%. Good bombing results for negligable losses - 0/558f 5/383b 0e. The usual tactical raids see no combat either.

BC: 4 Group to Magdeburge Elbe PORT and 0/23 Mossies to Dortumnd Herne PORT. The 4 Group Halifaxes experience another LGO raid; except this time a partial one. Two forces of Halifaxes are plotted; a Halifax II raid, led by 35 Squadron in 5 Group with H2S (120b total), and a second Halifax III raid led by the highest morale Halifax III squadron (96b total), and timed to hit the target at the same time as the slower Halifax II force. This plus the usual RCM and NI sorties in support. The Halifax III force all take off and hit the target (good bombing!) while only the lead group of the Halifax II force attacks for a classic LGO raid. I dunno what this means, but it's interesting that the only Halifax II unit to participate was from 8 Group. Ah well.

(in reply to fochinell)

Post #: 179

RE: AAR swift vs fochinell - 8/27/2007 7:45:41 PM

wernerpruckner

Posts: 4148
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

now my situation:

top pilots: