Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion Page: <<   < prev  11 12 [13] 14 15   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/9/2006 11:31:52 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Gilbert

I am continually amazed at the quality work being done on the maps for MWiF.
They are looking so good I will buy the game just for the maps!
Of course, the game would be a nice add on.

That's almost all Patrice's work with advice and comments from many forum members. Rob Armstrong will be doing the final bitmap versions based on Patrice's 'drafts'.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Jeff Gilbert)
Post #: 361
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/17/2006 10:33:54 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I finally got around to updating the European map colors for the rivers and lake outlines to match those for the Scandinanvian map. Here is half of the overlap portion between the two maps - the half that is correct. The overlap from Turku and points west still need to be fixed.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 362
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/18/2006 12:37:11 PM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline 		NICE

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 363
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/28/2006 9:51:41 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here are the latest mods to the Scandinavian coastal and river/lake bitmaps.

This is where the most changes have been made: the western join between the Scandinavian map and the European map. They include revisions to the European map from WIF FE, which were only made after a lot of discussion in the forum, voting, and solid consensus (perhaps not unanimous).

Patrice, the hex east of Gehtenburg is coastal - it shouldn't be. The hex NE of Gothenburg needs a RLS entry. The name Vanern should be lowered a tad.

I think the river SE of Stockholm has to be made thicker to make it more apparent.

And let me brag a little here - I really like the way the automation of the rail lines enables them to skirt the wet spots. None of that is hard coded; the program figures it out using logic based on the presence of all sea and lake hexsides.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to CBoehm)
Post #: 364
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/28/2006 9:53:28 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		The eastern continuation of the join. Nothing has changed here except aruond Turku.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 365
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/28/2006 9:56:13 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Rob redid the lakes in the SW corner of this screen shot so it would be clearer which hexsides they were blocking. he also modded the river around Petsamo so it wouldn't get lost in the country boundary.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 366
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/28/2006 9:57:22 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Spitzbergen now has some Ice terrain, instead of all Tundra.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 367
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/28/2006 10:02:25 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		An overview of Scandinavia at zoom 3.

To make it all visible on my screen I would have to go to zoom 2. Ok, I'll do that in the next post.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 368
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/28/2006 10:05:40 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		6th and last in the series.

As I always say, "You put in a thousand hours of work, and you can made something that's not half bad." In this case, several hundred hours, in aggregate, by dozens of people.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 369
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/28/2006 11:05:01 PM   
Incy

 

Posts: 336
Joined: 10/25/2003
Status: offline 		Nice.

With a overview like this two possible improvements strike me:
-the boundary between Arctic ocean and Norwegian sea should go through (some of) lofoten islands rather than pass by to their north. Looks better, and would be a lot more realistic militarily. Also more consistent with seasone placement elsewhere.
There was some limited action in Lofoten that reinforces it as a likely landing spot, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Anklet

-For historical (and infrastructure) reasons, the boundary between Norwegian sea and north sea might be better placed one hex further south. This hex (actually only the small island in the northwest part of the hex) is the site of the "Måløy raidet" aka "Operation archery"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Archery
Måløy is a good, well sheltered (but small) port with major fish processing industry. It handles more fish than any other norwegian port (= infrastructure + proximity to the sea = of military value). But there is no airfield (to many fjords & mountains), and the port is probaly to small for capital ships, so no port symbol. But bordering two seasones is justified.



(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 370
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/28/2006 11:06:32 PM   
Peter Stauffenberg


Posts: 403
Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are the latest mods to the Scandinavian coastal and river/lake bitmaps.





I just noticed that the SW corner of lake Vänern is missing the lake coast lines. Scandinavia looks great now. :)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 371
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/28/2006 11:28:17 PM   
Toed

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 8/5/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are the latest mods to the Scandinavian coastal and river/lake bitmaps.

This is where the most changes have been made: the western join between the Scandinavian map and the European map. They include revisions to the European map from WIF FE, which were only made after a lot of discussion in the forum, voting, and solid consensus (perhaps not unanimous).

Patrice, the hex east of Gehtenburg is coastal - it shouldn't be. The hex NE of Gothenburg needs a RLS entry. The name Vanern should be lowered a tad.

I think the river SE of Stockholm has to be made thicker to make it more apparent.

And let me brag a little here - I really like the way the automation of the rail lines enables them to skirt the wet spots. None of that is hard coded; the program figures it out using logic based on the presence of all sea and lake hexsides.




Looking very good indeed now. I agree that the river SE of Stockholm could stand out more. Other than 3 small items the Swedish part of the map seems as good as we can get it to be (considering scale, hexes and overall 'WiFness').

1 & 2 are the south tips of Vänern and Vättern. Vänern seems to be missing a part in the hex NE of Gothenburg and the 'tail' of Vänern doesn't match up completely with the eastern shoreline.
3 is the placement of Luleå wich in my view should be moved west so it is on the coastline adjacent to Luleälven.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 372
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/29/2006 4:57:21 AM   
ahlner

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 10/7/2006
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Looks very nice!

I really like that the Finnish port Hanko is now part of the Finnish Borderlands as it was historically. The correct Finnish spelling is Hanko (not the Norwegian letter Ø).

Here are some suggestions for a couple of small changes:

Borders
- The Finnish part of the Rybachi peninsula (the hex NE of Petsamo) should be part of the Finnish Borderland.

Spelling
- Finnish spelling of Vyborg is Viipuri (Vyborg is Russian spelling).
- ö in the Swedish port of Norrköping
- Ö in the island of Öland (Swe)
- ä in the Estonian port of Pärnu


As a Swede I think only one major flaw remains on the Scandinavian map; the Danish island of Bornholm. But it is in WiF FE and has been discussed in earlier posts... One suggestion is to completely leave out the island on the map.



< Message edited by ahlner -- 10/29/2006 5:04:43 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 373
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/29/2006 1:30:10 PM   
Incy

 

Posts: 336
Joined: 10/25/2003
Status: offline
quote:

Spelling
- Finnish spelling of Vyborg is Viipuri (Vyborg is Russian spelling).
- ö in the Swedish port of Norrköping
- Ö in the island of Öland (Swe)
- ä in the Estonian port of Pärnu


I think this might be overdue to get in place some naming conventions.
For countries, it's pretty consistant usage of english names.
For territories and island groups, it's mostly english but not always:
Why is it Åland, but Faeroes??
For cities, it's mostly local names, but sometimes english:
Why is it Mexico City and not Ciudad Mexico, and Copenhagen and not København? (maybe the standard is english names whenever available?)
Same for lakes and rivers:
Why is it "Lake lagoda" (and not the russian "Ladozhskoye Ozero")? Just to the west is "Vänaren" or "Mjøsa" which do get local names(maybe same reason, english names when available?)

(in reply to ahlner)
Post #: 374
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/29/2006 4:00:13 PM   
ahlner

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 10/7/2006
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		As I have understood the naming convention is English names when availaible (for example Gothenburg instead of Göteborg) and local names when no English names are available.

< Message edited by ahlner -- 10/30/2006 8:38:47 AM >

(in reply to Incy)
Post #: 375
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/29/2006 4:08:11 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

- ö in the Swedish port of Norrköping
- Ö in the island of Öland (Swe)
- ä in the Estonian port of Pärnu

I've corrected that.

quote:

Borders
- The Finnish part of the Rybachi peninsula (the hex NE of Petsamo) should be part of the Finnish Borderland.

I've corrected that too.

For Viipuri, I'll leave Vyborg for the moment, as this is Vyborg that is written on the WiF FE map.

I think that the name for cities, is the most known name, English if available. Mexico is most known than Ciudad Mexico, not to speak of Copenhagen / København.

(in reply to ahlner)
Post #: 376
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/29/2006 8:43:17 PM   
Peter Stauffenberg


Posts: 403
Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ahlner
Borders
- The Finnish part of the Rybachi peninsula (the hex NE of Petsamo) should be part of the Finnish Borderland.

Look here for details about which Finnish regions were lost when:
http://www.tacitus.nu/historical-atlas/scandinavia/finland.htm

You're right that the Fisher peninsula area was lost in 1940, but not the Petsamo area. It was lost in 1944.

(in reply to ahlner)
Post #: 377
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/30/2006 12:33:03 AM   
CBoehm

 

Posts: 113
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline 		Scandinavia looks great - just too bad the RAW rules dont support any (good) reason for GER to attack Norway ...ei. if GE attacks its vertually guaranteed that the CW will get a firm foothold in Narvik thereby preventing the transport of the swedish resources in winter not to mention giving the CW a butload of cp's and 2 TRNs ...

< Message edited by CBoehm -- 10/30/2006 12:35:41 AM >

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)
Post #: 378
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 10/30/2006 9:01:09 AM   
ahlner

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 10/7/2006
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Here is a map of the areas ceded by Finland in 1940 after the Winter War and which should be part of the Finnish Borderlands:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty_(1940)

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)
Post #: 379
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 11/7/2006 6:35:49 PM   
FinnOlavFosse


Posts: 1
Joined: 11/7/2006
Status: offline 		Just east of Kristiandsand (where the letters tiandsand are) a town called Arendal is located. On the 9th of Nowember 1935 the connection with the Sørlandsbanen (southernrailroad)was established and a railroad connection with standard rail (the same whidt as sørlandsbanen)made it possible too transport goods, passangers etc from arendal too the rest of the rail line connectiong Stavanger, Kristiandsand and oslo. The transit station Nelaug is roughly located in the middle of the green hex north of the hex in question. In 1939 Arendal had the 4th largest Tanker fleet only surpassed by Oslo(largest) Bergen (2nd) and Stavanger(3rd). If anyone wonder why the rail road is located inland it was for protection against ship shelling, and protection from enemy troop landings since the rail road was the primary means for troop and equipment movment. The reason I mention this is the fact that Arendal was 1 of the ports included in opperation Weserübung Nord(the codename for the german invasion of norway)Gruppe A had Arendal as target, gruppe B Bergen, gruppe E Egersund(south of stavanger) gruppe K Kristiandsand gruppe N Narvik gruppe O Oslo and gruppe T Trondheim. At abt 04:00 on the morning of April the 9th the Captain of the "Greif" gets the coded message too impliment opperation Altona the codename for the strategic supprice attack on Arendal. The attack was lead by elements of the 163 divison under General Engelbrecht. The main objectiv was too secure the city and harbour. According too the plan Greif should begin landing troops at 04:15 but fog, and the complex norwegian coastline with its many islands delayed the invasion. And the first german troops landed in Arendal at around 08:30. No hostility took place and Arendal was officialy a german stronghold with capability too bring in supplies and troops. Rittmester Smith Von Wesenthal and his second in command Leutnant Von Bredal simply marched into the town hall and informd that the city was occupied and that he would like too speak with the town officials.

Adding the port of Arendal would give the scandinavian map a level of historical detail overlooked by most games. And with the war dragging on Festung Norwegen (fortress Norway) could be another strategic consideration with intress for veterans of world in flames and a often overlooked but extremly strategic coastline. Just the fact that the german army had 400 thousand troops stationed in norway at a time is a interesting fact.

Hope this have been of some help, and thanks for making this game (I was afraid I had too decorate a wholde room too play the boardgame each summer when the old gang meet upp he he)

_____________________________

Evig og tro til dovre faller

(in reply to ahlner)
Post #: 380
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 11/7/2006 9:26:26 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Good reading FinnOlavFosse, thank you for that.

Arendal seems to be a quite important city and port, but ADG designers have chosen to leave it out of the picture. Maybe this is because of Kristiansand, that is near, and having 2 minor ports so near was something they did not want.
I do not know.

I attached a map of the area, showing the operations (from the Oxford Companion to WWII), and it does show the place, but does not show it was an axis of conquest of the Germans.
Maybe it becomes secondary in the big picture I don't know neither.

Well, anyway, I think that adding ports in tha area covered by the European scaled WiF FE maps is out of the picture for the game.

Opinions ?


By the way, look at how the Stockholm area is represented on this map. The Mälaren does not look as a Lake, and I hope we were not wrong in changing the area there, because it looks here as it looks on the WiF FE maps.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to FinnOlavFosse)
Post #: 381
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 11/7/2006 10:06:54 PM   
jesperpehrson


Posts: 1052
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline 		It is a lake separated from the sea by a lock ("slusses")

The gap on the map you posted Patrice does not represent it very well though.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 382
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 11/7/2006 10:29:35 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan
It is a lake separated from the sea by a lock ("slusses")
The gap on the map you posted Patrice does not represent it very well though.

I hope you're right, in the 40s especially

(in reply to jesperpehrson)
Post #: 383
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 11/7/2006 10:53:48 PM   
jesperpehrson


Posts: 1052
Joined: 7/29/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: capitan
It is a lake separated from the sea by a lock ("slusses")
The gap on the map you posted Patrice does not represent it very well though.

I hope you're right, in the 40s especially


The first one was built in 1637 so I guess it will cover it ;-)

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 384
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 11/7/2006 11:25:54 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Great, thanks !

(in reply to jesperpehrson)
Post #: 385
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 11/8/2007 8:26:10 PM   
Ilves

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
I didn't have time to read all the posts and hopefully this isn't posted yet, but before Winterwar the second largest city in Finland was Viipuri (Vyborg) with population of 80.000

1940 Espoo had only population of 13.378
Vantaa 31.511
Turku +60.000
Tampere some 40.000-50.000 ?

In 1940 only 9.6 %(2006 only 5 %) of the total population of Finland spoke Swedish as a first language. 90 % were Finnish speakers. Most of the Swedish speaking people live in the coastal areas. Last time Finns where under Swedish rule was before 1809. I think 99% of Swedish speaking Finns understands Finnish. So the correct way to write all Finnish names is to write them in Finnish and maybe put the Swedish name in brackets if needed.

Yes, I'm a Finn.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

I read further in Wikipedia and noticed now that the ranks of the Finnish cities are:
1. Helsinki(560.000)
2. Espoo (230.000). City is located very close to Helsinki
3. Tampere (200.000)
4. Vantaa (185.000). City is located very close to Helsinki
5. Turku (175.000).

I think that the cities of Espoo and Vantaa have had a bigger increase in population since WW2 than Tampere and Turku, being so close to the capital Helsinki. Therefore I don't think they should belong on any WW2 map. They would be in the same hex as Helsinki anyway.

Turku was the former capital in Finland (before 1812) and seems to not grow as quickly as the other cities. Tampere is growing quickly maybe partly because of the big company Nokia being located there.

In 1940 there was only 65.000 inhabitants in Turku according to Wikipedia.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85bo

So maybe it's enough to add Turku only as a port.

About using the Swedish or Finnish names for the Finnish cities I prefer to use the Finnish names. Most people outside Scandinavia use Helsinki (not Helsingfors) and it's printed Helsinki on the WIFFE maps. Vyborg is the Russian spelling of the city. Maybe it's printed the Russian way because the city is Russian most time of the game.

It's a pity we don't have a Finnish player on this forum who could tell us exactly how things are. I read in Wikipedia that in Turku about 90% of the population speaks Finnish. Only 5% speaks Swedish. The Finnish cities have Swedish names probably from the time Finland was under Swedish control. But that was a long time ago and Finland became a Grand Duchy in 1809 under control by Russia. Only in 1917 Finland got its liberty.

I think most WW2 maps use the Finnish names for the Finnish cities. Maybe to avoid the "troublesome" Swedish lletters ä, å and ö.


(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)
Post #: 386
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 11/8/2007 9:07:46 PM   
bj_rohde

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 8/3/2007
From: Norway
Status: offline 		The two hexes north of Trondheim should have a strait hexside between them. That strait is narrower than many other straits in WiF. The western hex of those two might even have a straits hexside to the hex directly west of Trondheim, but the fjord is wider there so maybe not. It's only half the width of the gibraltar strait, though. Since the fjords are so much more intricately drawn on this scale, any existence or non-existence of straits in the Trondheimsfjord will have consequenses for a norwegian campaign in MWiF.

Bjarne

(in reply to Ilves)
Post #: 387
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/27/2007 7:13:24 AM   
marcusm

 

Posts: 776
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Göteborg/Sweden
Status: offline 		Can this map be modded? It should say Göteborg not Gothenburg.

Look here if you need information
http://www10.goteborg.se/english/

No such thing as Gothenburg exists or ever existed, only among those who thought it
would sound cooler in English. Official name is Göteborg, period. There is a Gothenburg in
USA though. It gives the wrong impression that it has anything to do with Goths whe it is in fact Väst-Götar.

Finland is a different case since it is bi-lingual, Sweden is not (although you find Sami/Finnish named cities up north).

Please correct this. Unless this turned into a fantasy game suddenly?

Obviously it's Norrköping and not Norrkoping as well.




< Message edited by marcusm -- 12/27/2007 7:15:52 AM >

(in reply to bj_rohde)
Post #: 388
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/27/2007 2:40:26 PM   
hakon

 

Posts: 298
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline 		The question of what name should be used, should be based on what would be most easily recognized in English speaking countries at the time of WW2.

My impression, is that Gothenburg is more widely used than Göteborg, at least it is the name used by Wikipedia (english version):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4stra_G%C3%B6taland_County
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothenburg

Any comments from native English speakers?

(in reply to marcusm)
Post #: 389
RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 12/27/2007 2:52:51 PM   
marcusm

 

Posts: 776
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Göteborg/Sweden
Status: offline 		I do not deny that the term has been used (which explains why the Wikipedia article is incorrect). Doesn't
make it right. I expect people to accept the official name which the home page www.goteborg.se clearly displays
in both English and Swedish.

We are talking about a name that has been in use since 1621 after all so it's no new ruse ;). Nevermind if certain "historical" variants have been used. It's Göteborg now it was Göteborg during WW2 so it would be 100% accurate to use Göteborg and 0% accurate to use Gothenburg. Is this a realistic WW2 game or a fantasy game, that is the question.

This page better explains the history and may explain the mistaken name to some (those who read Swedish that is).
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6teborgs_historia



< Message edited by marcusm -- 12/27/2007 3:01:10 PM >

(in reply to hakon)
Post #: 390
Page:   <<   < prev  11 12 [13] 14 15   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> World in Flames >> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion Page: <<   < prev  11 12 [13] 14 15   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

2.188