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RE: why do air units rest so much?

 
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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 8:49:05 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

Groupthink is not cool!


Lol. That's another first. No one's ever accused me of participating in 'groupthink' before. I almost feel comforted. 'See, I don't compulsively disagree with everybody.'




..oh dear, still in denial..

..and you were doing so well..



You should open up a group therapy center or something. 'Help for troubled executives.' By the time they realize what a mistake they've made, it'll be too late...


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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 8:59:07 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

...It'd be easy for me to get along here, all I'd have to do is follow certain people around and compliment them and figure out who they don't like and insult those people; its a very common situation in the world, and I'm not at all paranoid.


Oh bumph. I know I can annoy people -- and I often make no effort not to. In fact, sometimes I suspect I bully people. Being congenial is pretty low on my list of priorities -- and I've been banned from at least two websites that I can remember. Moreover, I don't regret a word -- well, some of the bullying I'd prefer to retract.

I'll advocate almost anything and will tell people to **** off if I feel so inclined. Sometimes the positions I take would even be considered criminal in some countries. I don't care. I might get banned here someday -- and I have no intention of modifying my behavior to avoid such an outcome. It'll just happen if it's going to happen.

You're not a martyr to free speech. You're just being an incredible dick.


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Post #: 62
RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 9:01:15 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff...for someone who claims to understand psychoanalysis, I think you show a stunning lack of understanding for how primates operate.




He seems to have the behavior of some of the lower ones pretty well pegged.


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Post #: 63
RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 9:18:26 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

The health of your units is too low. See the color tagging of the units?

I thought you might mention that... its actually because I broke the units up into smaller units with only a third of their equipment assigned in the hopes that it would change things; but notice how the bright green units are also resting? So yah, I can recombine the fighters and they'll still rest as bright-green units. But perhaps the equation should not take the fraction of assigned vs authorized strength into account? I mean, honestly, why would that matter? During the Normandy invasion, two lone German fighters strafed the beaches; they didn't care that the rest of their assigned strength was unavailable, and they didn't rest.

Yeah, and I'm sure that their commander had to get on his phone, or radio, and cajole, harangue, threaten and order them to do so. Well...when you're playing TOAW, it's your job to be that commander. So, be that commander and do the same for your troops. The few mouse clicks will take you less time than that phone call, or posting to whine about it in the forum, for that matter.

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 9:24:20 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

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quote:

Yeah, and I'm sure that their commander had to get on his phone, or radio, and cajole, harangue, threaten and order them to do so. Well...when you're playing TOAW, it's your job to be that commander.

I mean, does it make sense to reason backwards and invent an explanation for something, rather than just fixing the problem? Does the commander in Iraq right now have to "harangue" the air force to stop resting all the time? Come on now, be reasonable; there is simply no reason that a player should HAVE to check on every single unit, every single turn, in order to ensure that they aren't shirking. That kind of micromanagement is pretty absurd.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/17/2007 9:26:27 AM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 9:53:52 AM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wolflars
First, are you or are you not the same Adam Rinkleff who was caught up in some controversy from wikipedia for demonstrating very similar behavior?

Spent some time following web searches on that. Interesting reading that certainly adds some perspective. Thanks.

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Post #: 66
RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 6:34:25 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: wolflars
First, are you or are you not the same Adam Rinkleff who was caught up in some controversy from wikipedia for demonstrating very similar behavior?

Spent some time following web searches on that. Interesting reading that certainly adds some perspective. Thanks.



Mmm. Interesting to see if Adam rides off into the sunset at this point.


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Post #: 67
RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 8:23:47 PM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

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Children... children... children... Do you have any idea how to stay on topic? 

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 9:19:25 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

Children... children... children... Do you have any idea how to stay on topic?


Whether that really has been your purpose all along is a mildly interesting question, but at any rate, the net effect of your posts has been to make you the topic.

So we are sticking to the subject. It's you. Isn't that what you want?

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 9:51:31 PM   
sPzAbt653


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Wasn't the topic that if air units flew all day and rested at night that it should be considered a problem with the game system?

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 10:30:30 PM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

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quote:

Wasn't the topic that if air units flew all day and rested at night that it should be considered a problem with the game system?

Essentially, but some people feel irresistibly drawn to 'ad-hominem' arguments, and prefer to spam up the thread with unrelated trolling. Technically tho, the argument was not about air units flying all day and resting at night; it was about why they rest so much, and the answer I found is that during PM turns the computer tends to automatically put units into a permanent rest state until the user manually changes their status -- thus, the problem is not that they rest at night, but that they don't unrest the next day. Mention of this should probably be made more clear in the manual, so that players don't have to wonder why their air units aren't flying.

According to Jamiam, this situaiton is ok because military commanders are expected to micromanage each airfield at 6am every morning, wake the crews up, and beg them to return to their air superiority missions; but that is obviously absurd, and there should simply be a way to order the crews to fly their missions every day. Meanwhile, according to others, the units are resting because they are out of fuel, or the aircraft are damaged, but those people are simply wrong, as it is obvious that they are resting because of the PM turn cycle.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/17/2007 10:43:06 PM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 11:02:36 PM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

Wasn't the topic that if air units flew all day and rested at night that it should be considered a problem with the game system?

Essentially, but some people feel irresistibly drawn to 'ad-hominem' arguments, and prefer to spam up the thread with unrelated trolling. Technically tho, the argument was not about air units flying all day and resting at night; it was about why they rest so much, and the answer I found is that during PM turns the computer tends to automatically put units into a permanent rest state until the user manually changes their status -- thus, the problem is not that they rest at night, but that they don't unrest the next day. Mention of this should probably be made more clear in the manual, so that players don't have to wonder why their air units aren't flying.

According to Jamiam, this situaiton is ok because military commanders are expected to micromanage each airfield at 6am every morning, wake the crews up, and beg them to return to their air superiority missions; but that is obviously absurd, and there should simply be a way to order the crews to fly their missions every day. Meanwhile, according to others, the units are resting because they are out of fuel, or the aircraft are damaged, but those people are simply wrong, as it is obvious that they are resting because of the PM turn cycle.


Why don't you object to your ground units not repeating their attacks unless you tell them to do so? I really don't see why -- other than the various personal reasons -- you should see this issue as a big deal.

It's not. As I said, sure it could be fixed -- and I'd put it down as about item #843 on the 'to do' list.


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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/17/2007 11:40:49 PM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

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quote:

Why don't you object to your ground units not repeating their attacks unless you tell them to do so?


There is an obvious difference between ground and air units.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/17/2007 11:44:13 PM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 1:51:23 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

Why don't you object to your ground units not repeating their attacks unless you tell them to do so?


There is an obvious difference between ground and air units.


What -- precisely? And in any case, why is this issue important? Wait'll you cotton on the problems with the supply model OPART uses -- or what passes for naval warfare in this game. Those are serious shortcomings.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 11/18/2007 2:01:25 AM >


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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 2:01:43 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

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quote:

What -- precisely?

Um, it might have something to do with airplanes which move at a several hundred miles per hour, and are generally operating from positions located far from the actual battlefield. Gee, I wonder what sort of an impact that could have? I could give you a more detailed answer, but I also know that you are trolling and won't take anything I say seriously regardless.

quote:

And in any case, why is this issue important?

Isn't it obvious? If the computer is ordering units to rest, and turning them off, and the player has to continuously fight the computer for control of their units... well, that is simply an INANE interface. Meanwhile, it is obviously very easy to fix, just give players/designers the option to turn off whatever function is attempting to sabotage the air units.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/18/2007 2:04:43 AM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 2:14:58 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

What -- precisely?

Um, it might have something to do with airplanes which move at a several hundred miles per hour, and are generally operating from positions located far from the actual battlefield. Gee, I wonder what sort of an impact that could have? I could give you a more detailed answer, but I also know that you are trolling and won't take anything I say seriously regardless.


Honestly. I am not 'trolling.' As for your argument, how about tanks versus infantry? After all, tanks are hardened steel packages that move at up to forty miles per hour whilst infantry are little meat bundles who have a hard time averaging more than three.

So it would follow that the system should treat them completely differently. But it doesn't. So why this demand that the system automatically handle your air units when it doesn't do the same for your ground units?
quote:



quote:

And in any case, why is this issue important?

Isn't it obvious? If the computer is ordering units to rest, and turning them off, and the player has to continuously fight the computer for control of their units... well, that is simply an INANE interface. Meanwhile, it is obviously very easy to fix, just give players/designers the option to turn off whatever function is attempting to sabotage the air units.


No...there are far worse interfaces. The one for Forge of Freedom for example, drives me crazy. Maybe it's just familiarity with the system -- but having to look at my air units every turn and modify their missions to what I want does not bother me -- nor does it seem to upset anyone else. You're not having to 'fight' anyone for control of your air units by any reasonable definition of the term. You call up the air unit list and review and adjust the settings for each round. There's no problem.

By any yardstick, it certainly is not a major problem. It does nothing to reduce the quality of the simulation, nor does anyone other than you seem to find it especially burdensome. It's like you've decided you find the color green for 'go' irksome. Well, it works, and it doesn't seem to upset anyone else. Maybe it is not a major problem -- however much you may try to argue otherwise.

I've looked up some of the references to you elsewhere. You seem to have a real problem with using language accurately. Farmers in Iowa are not running 'concentration camps,' I am not 'trolling,' and this is not a 'major problem.' Get a grip.


< Message edited by ColinWright -- 11/18/2007 2:18:03 AM >


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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 3:06:24 AM   
a white rabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

. Farmers in Iowa are not running 'concentration camps,'


..as, probably, the only organic farmer here with some 25 years behind a plough, i'm willing to debate that, i'll even lead..

..intensive farming is needed to supply the cities of any country with cheap, affordable food of a reasonable quality......

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 3:11:06 AM   
rhinobones

 

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quote:

Norm Koger is a veteran of the US air force.


US Air Force, wow! That's almost like being in a military service.

It also explains a lot about the problems with land and sea combat.

Regards, RhinoBones, USMC

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 3:44:23 AM   
desert


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What is the significance of "Lir"?

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Suggested Engine Change - 11/18/2007 3:57:16 AM   
rhinobones

 

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Seems to me that the question about the realism of units going into the Rest, Disorganized, Retreated and Reorganization modes is more a problem of how long they are in this mode rather than the fact that they can be rested, disorganized, retreated or disorganized. 

In scenarios with 6 hour, half day and full day turn lengths I can easily see units immobilized or disorganized for the entire turn.  However, when the turn length is half-week or longer the question becomes, should the unit(s) actually be immobilized for the entire time period?  In actuality are infantry and air units typically completely disorganized to the point that they cannot function for an entire two and a half days or longer?  In extreme cases maybe, but in the norm, I don’t think so.

Should the engine be modified so that units have a reasonable probability of coming back on line after a few pulses of the turn?  Think so.

Think that in any scenario with a time parameter of one half week or longer there should be a possibility that rested, disorganized, reorganized  and retreated units have a probability or returning to the battle as functional units. 

This would seem to be the essences of the original post.

Regards, RhinoBones

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 4:25:24 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

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quote:

white rabbit: ..as, probably, the only organic farmer here with some 25 years behind a plough, i'm willing to debate that, i'll even lead..

I worked on midwest dairy farms for several years; so I think I know what I'm talking about when I describe them as appalling concentration/death camps. Meanwhile, I'm glad to know that certain people here are stalking me online; its kinda cute, although mildly pathetic. Anyways, I'm quite content to support the organic farm movement, and I'm not at all ashamed to admit that I think industrial farming is highly immoral and unhealthy.

quote:

rhinobones: In scenarios with 6 hour, half day and full day turn lengths I can easily see units immobilized or disorganized for the entire turn. However, when the turn length is half-week or longer the question becomes, should the unit(s) actually be immobilized for the entire time period? Should the engine be modified so that units have a reasonable probability of coming back on line after a few pulses of the turn? Think so... in any scenario with a time parameter of one half week or longer there should be a possibility that rested, disorganized, reorganized and retreated units have a probability or returning to the battle as functional units.

You see? The very voice of reason itself... He has perfectly expressed what I think.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/18/2007 4:43:50 AM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 4:31:02 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

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quote:

Colin: tanks are hardened steel packages that move at up to forty miles per hour whilst infantry are little meat bundles who have a hard time averaging more than three. So it would follow that the system should treat them completely differently. But it doesn't. So why this demand that the system automatically handle your air units when it doesn't do the same for your ground units?


First off, I am not demanding that the system automatically handle my air units; it already does, duh, and what I'm asking is that it STOP. The time to fix this could probably by measured in minutes, and would essentially involve highlighting some code, and hitting the delete key; or, a very simple switch function could be made which gives people the option of turning the offending function off. Secondly, it would not be very difficult to make an improvement to the code, which involves some method by which auto-rested air-units are returned to duty. Thirdly, easy fixes like this should be given high priority, rather than complicated changes such as a revision of naval combat or supply -- this is a concept known as 'triage'. Thirdly, the system DOES treat infantry and tanks differently; that is the whole point of armor and AT.

Meanwhile, just look at how the program handles air units currently... ooooh, you see all that about combat support, interdiction, air superiority? Notice how ground units don't have those options? Yah, see, it ALREADY treats them differently, so how am I being ridiculous by concluding that since they are in fact fundamentally different, that they should be treated differently? Why would you even ask me about the difference between ground and air units? Isn't it patently obvious?

Ground units get pinned down, lost, disorganized, diseased, physically blocked by terrain, and extremely demoralized; meanwhile, air units are stationed at airfields, and no matter how tired or depressed the pilots are, its never really all that hard to start the engine, drive down the runaway, take off, and fly around... therefore, so long as readiness/supply are high, air units should basically NEVER rest for more than 6-12 hours, except when the player specifically orders them to do so -- this is particularly true of air superiority missions. Quite simply, an air unit resting is absolutely NOT the same thing as a ground unit aborting an attack; a ground unit aborting attack involves a commander screaming over the field telephone that they can't advance, whereas an air unit resting involves guys standing around eating doughnuts, drinking coffee, and playing golf.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/18/2007 4:49:32 AM >

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 7:29:08 AM   
sPzAbt653


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'during PM turns the computer tends to automatically put units into a permanent rest state until the user manually changes their status -- thus, the problem is not that they rest at night, but that they don't unrest the next day.'

Thanks for that, you got me clear now. I don't know anything about internet trolls, Iowa, military service, prions or fat women, but the above statement brought back memory of the time I started COW. Learning a new system (left click, right click, this button not that one...) was one thing, but my computer won't hold the orders I gave to about half of my air units! Maddening at the time, eventually it seemed they did that so they didn't continue fighting until evaporation. I'm quite used to it now. I feel I can reset them until they go orange, then I can leave them alone without fear they will return to the air. If there was a setting for a player chosen point at which to rest it would be nice, it's probably on the Big Wishlist somewhere, near the bottom with the Elephants and red ass monkeys.

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Post #: 83
RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 7:54:27 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

Colin: tanks are hardened steel packages that move at up to forty miles per hour whilst infantry are little meat bundles who have a hard time averaging more than three. So it would follow that the system should treat them completely differently. But it doesn't. So why this demand that the system automatically handle your air units when it doesn't do the same for your ground units?


First off, I am not demanding that the system automatically handle my air units; it already does, duh, and what I'm asking is that it STOP. The time to fix this could probably by measured in minutes, and would essentially involve highlighting some code, and hitting the delete key; or, a very simple switch function could be made which gives people the option of turning the offending function off. Secondly, it would not be very difficult to make an improvement to the code, which involves some method by which auto-rested air-units are returned to duty. Thirdly, easy fixes like this should be given high priority, rather than complicated changes such as a revision of naval combat or supply -- this is a concept known as 'triage'.


No, actually triage doesn't work like that. Among other things, injuries not requiring immediate treatment are ignored. Like -- say -- your need to see air units keep flying without your resetting them each round.
quote:



Thirdly, the system DOES treat infantry and tanks differently; that is the whole point of armor and AT.

Meanwhile, just look at how the program handles air units currently... ooooh, you see all that about combat support, interdiction, air superiority? Notice how ground units don't have those options? Yah, see, it ALREADY treats them differently, so how am I being ridiculous by concluding that since they are in fact fundamentally different, that they should be treated differently? Why would you even ask me about the difference between ground and air units? Isn't it patently obvious?


The point is that if you want a ground unit to repeat an attack, or to continue to dig in, or to have another go at fixing the bridge, you have to tell it to do so.

Apparently you don't perceive this as a problem -- but it is a problem that air units will stop flying combat support of their own accord. What's the distinction?
quote:



Ground units get pinned down, lost, disorganized, diseased, physically blocked by terrain, and extremely demoralized; meanwhile, air units are stationed at airfields, and no matter how tired or depressed the pilots are, its never really all that hard to start the engine, drive down the runaway, take off, and fly around... therefore, so long as readiness/supply are high, air units should basically NEVER rest for more than 6-12 hours, except when the player specifically orders them to do so -- this is particularly true of air superiority missions. Quite simply, an air unit resting is absolutely NOT the same thing as a ground unit aborting an attack; a ground unit aborting attack involves a commander screaming over the field telephone that they can't advance, whereas an air unit resting involves guys standing around eating doughnuts, drinking coffee, and playing golf.


Does it? Perhaps it involves getting more ammo for the tail guns, or doing something about the fact that no fully-trained lead navigators are still alive, or catching up on needed maintenance, or whatever.

Anyway, you can just reset the units to whatever you want. I still don't see why this is a 'serious problem.' You never explain that. You've just seized upon this 'issue.' It's a trival point. It's hard to imagine a more trivial point.


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Post #: 84
RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 7:59:26 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

white rabbit: ..as, probably, the only organic farmer here with some 25 years behind a plough, i'm willing to debate that, i'll even lead..

I worked on midwest dairy farms for several years; so I think I know what I'm talking about when I describe them as appalling concentration/death camps. Meanwhile, I'm glad to know that certain people here are stalking me online; its kinda cute, although mildly pathetic.


This is cute. You apparently have no idea what stalking is. I've been subjected to far worse than you've gotten to date -- and it didn't even occur to me to regard it as 'stalking.'

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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 8:00:37 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

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quote:

If you want a ground unit to repeat an attack, or to continue to dig in, or to have another go at fixing the bridge, you have to tell it to do so. Apparently you don't perceive this as a problem -- but it is a problem that air units will stop flying combat support of their own accord. What's the distinction?


Ok, um, look, um, air superiority missions, right, well, basically, you take your planes up, every single day, and try to find enemy planes, and shoot at them... so, um, yah, if you rest... then you aren't doing air superiority. So yah, basically, an air unit resting is not like a land unit sitting there, because that land unit is still active, and it will still actively engage in battle, and if you set it to tactical defense it will still do that, and if you set it to local defense it will still do that... but if you set an air unit to do something... it'll quit, and you'll have to go back turn after turn and remind it.

< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/18/2007 8:13:24 AM >

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Post #: 86
RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 8:01:18 AM   
ColinWright

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

white rabbit: ..as, probably, the only organic farmer here with some 25 years behind a plough, i'm willing to debate that, i'll even lead..

I worked on midwest dairy farms for several years; so I think I know what I'm talking about when I describe them as appalling concentration/death camps.


You're just proving my point about your inability to use language with any precision.


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RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 8:12:53 AM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

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quote:

Colin: You're just proving my point about your inability to use language with any precision.

Either that, or you are proving my point about your utter ignorance of the subject...

quote:

Colin: Perhaps it involves getting more ammo for the tail guns, or doing something about the fact that no fully-trained lead navigators are still alive, or catching up on needed maintenance, or whatever.

Um, could you stop spamming the thread up with your poorly considered comments? Seriously, do you think clicking on an air unit magically finds more ammo for the tail guns, or magically generates fully-trained lead navigators? And what part of 100% supply, 100% proficiency, 100% readiness do you have trouble understanding? Duh, anyone who thinks being forced to click on every single unit, every single turn, in order to issue them the exact same orders that they were issued last turn is... well... lets just say that you probably waste a lot of time in your daily routine.


< Message edited by AdamRinkleff -- 11/18/2007 8:15:11 AM >

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 88
RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 12:23:19 PM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

Colin: You're just proving my point about your inability to use language with any precision.

Either that, or you are proving my point about your utter ignorance of the subject...


Okay, human beings are being herded into camps and gassed by the millions in Iowa. I didn't realize.
quote:




quote:

Colin: Perhaps it involves getting more ammo for the tail guns, or doing something about the fact that no fully-trained lead navigators are still alive, or catching up on needed maintenance, or whatever.

Um, could you stop spamming the thread up with your poorly considered comments?



Why are they 'poorly considered comments'? Your assertion was that the units were shutting down for coffee and donuts. Actually, they're shutting down when their readiness and supply drops below a certain level. What do you think those drops represent? I think they represent the sort of things I mentioned.

_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to Adam Rinkleff)
Post #: 89
RE: why do air units rest so much? - 11/18/2007 1:05:38 PM   
Karri

 

Posts: 1137
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: offline
Whatever the issue here is, why do air units go on rest so often? Not talking about re-organisation...but for example I set x numbers of unit on air superiority, then an enemy interdiction happens and my air units go to rest. Then I have to change them to air superiority again. I see no point in this.

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 90
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