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One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 8:55:12 AM

Evildan

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I understand the next patch is forthcoming, so I thought I'd throw out what should be a simple fix.

Knowing the Russians won't attack the Germans, after Poland I conquered the baltic states while I was conquering France. Then when I had enough troops the conquest of Russia was childs play. It still is childs play before the new AI fixes being worked are in, but this strategic issue should be fixed as well. Obviously the Soviets need to conquer those states, post haste, or the AI fixed so that the Russians attack should the Germans invade them - pretty easy.

Also, is anybody else disturbed that the Germans can't chose to declare war on minors that are pro-axis leaning? It is certainly would help the Germans to be allowed to attack everybody... but it does remove some of the flexibility. Just a thought. I presume the British or Russians should not be also as limited, for even more flexibility. I would gather a World-in-flames type US entry effect or PP discouragement would help to balance the choices for Germany instead of a fixed rule no DOW's on pro-axis minors. There appears significant room for enhancenement in the Diplomatic area of the game.

I'm guessing the PBEM modders have fixed this already.

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 9:09:15 AM

BlueMak

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Wqait, do you mean that the AI as the USSR, does not attack the player ever, even after being attacked?

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 9:16:15 AM

Evildan

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Sorry, I should have elaborated a bit. The Russians don't attack the Germans after the Germans select the "PAct" option of dividing up Poland. The AI error is that with the pact, the Soviets are granted rights to the Balkans (or that's how it worked historically). Everybody assumes that if Hitler had invaded the Balkans, Stalin would have ripped up the pact papers and invaded Western Poland and Germany. This is so obvious it was simply overlooked in the games AI. It's also a quick fix in the program.

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 9:18:47 AM

Joshuatree

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"Also, is anybody else disturbed that the Germans can't chose to declare war on minors that are pro-axis leaning?"

Yup, a player should be able to declare war on any nation, unless the rules in a scenario prevent this from happening ofcourse.

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 10:22:02 AM

BlueMak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evildan

Sorry, I should have elaborated a bit.�� The Russians don't attack the Germans after the Germans select the "PAct" option of dividing up Poland.� The AI error is that with the pact, the Soviets are granted rights to the Balkans (or that's how it worked historically).�� Everybody assumes that if Hitler had invaded the Balkans, Stalin would have ripped up the pact papers and invaded Western Poland and Germany.�� This is so obvious it was simply overlooked in the games AI.� It's also a quick fix in the program.

Sorry, but because I am new to this game, I want to ask you something on what you said. Does this mean that if you sign the pact the ussr will never attack you first?

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 10:24:07 AM

BlueMak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evildan

Also, is anybody else disturbed that the Germans can't chose to declare war on minors that are pro-axis leaning?

Well, this makes my plan of invading Spain to capture Gibraltar, impossible. I can understand the rule if you are a democracy, but if you are one crazy hitler or stalin, why would you care and not be able to attack anyone?

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 1:05:08 PM

BlueMak

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Well, unless I didn't understand you again, thanks for nothing...The soviets had no problem attacking my almost empty borders in 1942, even though I signed the pact. That will teach me to stop listening to new members of a forum about bugs and glitches etc.

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 1:17:55 PM

gwgardner

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He was referring to the special situation in which the Germans take the Baltic States, which would have seriously put a crimp in Soviet/German relations, since it would have violated the protocols of their non-agression pact. He suggests that should cause the USSR to go to war.

I kind of doubt Stalin would have gone to war in that case, but there certainly would have been a social unrest situation for the Germans, perhaps an increased readiness on the part of the Soviets. There should indeed be some repurcussions for the Germans attacking the Baltics.

Similarly, I've always thought it would be more fun if, for instance, the British could violate Norwegian soveriegnty, or take Copenhagen, with a serious social unrest penalty.

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 1:20:21 PM

BlueMak

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Oh well, this will be interesting (my campaign).

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 1:45:21 PM

James Ward

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueMak

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evildan

Also, is anybody else disturbed that the Germans can't chose to declare war on minors that are pro-axis leaning?

Well, this makes my plan of invading Spain to capture Gibraltar, impossible. I can understand the rule if you are a democracy, but if you are one crazy hitler or stalin, why would you care and not be able to attack anyone?

Well for one thing while they may have been crazy they were still bound by real world situations. If you want a game that trys to simulate history you cannot totally ignore reality.

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 5:52:14 PM

Evildan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueMak

Well, unless I didn't understand you again, thanks for nothing...The soviets had no problem attacking my almost empty borders in 1942, even though I signed the pact. That will teach me to stop listening to new members of a forum about bugs and glitches etc.

You are welcome

well, look at the bright side.... you had to perform the experiment to find out when the Soviets would attack the Germans (Now we knowh its in 1942). So now we know when the attack comes when there are No troops on the border. The next step is to see if any amount of troops on the border effects the choice, or if there's a randon number generator or if its a fixed date.
I had to go to sleep or I would have elaborated further that I was only talking about the 1 or 2 turns following the pact. I hadn't tested when the Soviets AI attacks yet, although you have provided some useful info - all of 1940 and all of 1941 no Soviet attack dispite and empty border. A better AI will check the garrison of troops and run a check chance - maybe similar to the surrounded city surrender chance.

The more serious issue is I believe we've learned that the Germans can't attack Spain? I haven't played in a week so I don't remember but is Spain pro-axis? If this is true then yes, that diplomatic limitation is pretty serious and should be ammended in my opinion, for those that want some more a-historical flexibility. It wouldn't be hard and would be a much better system - just assign a game deterent to declaring war on an Axis Partner, like added unrest, or accellerated US entry. Not hard at all to do.

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 6:25:47 PM

Evildan

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I think each of these items are REALLY important for the Game Designer to weigh in on. Both are easy to implement, so can we get quick thoughts on each, please?

1) Please fix the German-Soviet Pact so that the Soviets either immediately invade the Baltic states, or impose a penalty where if the Germans invade the Baltic states the Soviets are released from the pact and attack the Germans in the Soviet AI. Thoughts? Complaints?

2) If the Soviet AI is set such that they attack the Germans only on a pre-designated date in 1942 following selection of the pack event, please change this so that the Soviets might declar war sooner depending upon a prorated chance calculated form the number (or strength) of german troops garissoning the Russian front. Don't leave it predictable to the Germans. Thoughts? Complaints? If this is already the case, I think waiting till 1942 might be too long vs an undefended Polish boarder?

3) Please consider modifying the limitation that the Germans can't attack Pro-German minor counters (incl italy). Instead add a deterent to doing so related to the size or how close to turning Axis the minor might be. A good deterent is a sliding scale on when the US chooses to join the fight, and/or add some unreast or PP cost, etc. Under the current system the use of the Diplomatic points is kind of crucial in that the Germans can't change strategies easily after spending them - it becomes a bit rigid on the choices and even if this is an optional settings selection only, it would add enjoyment and flexibility to the game. As an example, if we are playing a multi-player game and the Germans are spending Diplo points on Turkey and I'm the British, then I can hide behind the fact that the Germans can't attack Persia or Spain and I know how long it will take in years for them to push them to their side, so I don't have to spend troops to watch those threats, etc. I just noticed that the Germans can't invade Vichy France... nor italy. In my current game it was a bit annoying that Italy couldn't invade the eastern med Vichy state of Syria. Should be allowed with a deterent of added unrest or US entry.
Thoughts? Complaints?

4) Similar to item 3, but if the English or the Russians can't also attack minors pro-to their cause, consider allowing them this option but with a reverse deterent. example, the English can chose to attack Norway, but in doing so they have to put up with delaying the US decides to enter war event by say 2 or 4 turns, etc. (Haven't played these countries in a while So I'm assuming the restriction is currently the same). Thoughts? Complaints?

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 8:11:00 PM

BlueMak

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My borders weren't completely empty. I am not that stupid/naive to do so, but still very few. Two corps and 5 divs.

I don't agree with your first point. Stalin knew he wasn't ready for war, he wouldn't attack Germany so soon.
I agree with your 3rd and 4th point.

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 8:28:28 PM

James Ward

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Why would you want Germany to have the ability to declare war on Italy?

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 8:46:12 PM

Evildan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueMak

My borders weren't completely empty. I am not that stupid/naive to do so, but still very few. Two corps and 5 divs.

I don't agree with your first point. Stalin knew he wasn't ready for war, he wouldn't attack Germany so soon.
I agree with your 3rd and 4th point.

Disregard the historical situatin for Stalin. It's easier to view that the Soviets should simply invade the Baltic states as they did immediately upon the pact. This was a term in the pact. Just pointing out a problem in that when you play Germany you can cheat the system and invade the baltic states before the soviete do... with full unfair knowledge that the Soviet AI will ignore you and they won't even put troops on the Northern Baltic border. The point is this is a problem (or a bug) and it needs fixing. 1st fix is Soviets immediately invade Baltics like they did historically per the pact. Second fix for flexible fun, is allow the Germans to invade baltics but assign a deterent to it so that its not an automatic choice for them. What the leaders thought or cared about really doesn't matter.
There's another thread where the discussion is the automatic choice where Germany gets Spain to join with a handfull of diplo points making this an "automatic strategy". The concept is you don't want any "automatic strategies", but rather strive for balance so various strategies have close to equall advantage.

And you're not stupid. When we talk about game balance problems it's best to keep away from the always heavy thoughts regarding the historical "feelings or thoughts" of the leaders at the time. In an ideal situation I should not have to know Anything about history or have read anything to enjoy a good balanced war game. I probably don't know all that much, but I sure know a fun balanced game when i see it

This one has a lot of promise because the designers have a good well thought out land war system, its worth my time to help them enhance it.

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 8:51:18 PM

Evildan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

Why would you want Germany to have the ability to declare war on Italy?

Why not? That's the fun of the game... exploring what if. Don't remove the options, however obsurd they may seem by putting in an artificial restriction. Much better to let the game effects cause you to dismiss the option

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 9:15:27 PM

James Ward

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evildan

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

Why would you want Germany to have the ability to declare war on Italy?

Why not? That's the fun of the game... exploring what if. Don't remove the options, however obsurd they may seem by putting in an artificial restriction. Much better to let the game effects cause you to dismiss the option

Why not have the US and Germany join the same side? Why not have France and Poland remain neutral? Some what if's are better left out IMO.
I do think having some nations set to neutral instead of leaning one way or the other would help, Norway and Vichy are two possibilities, but I don't know if the game system allows it.

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 9:33:40 PM

Hard Sarge

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Disregard the historical situatin for Stalin. It's easier to view that the Soviets should simply invade the Baltic states as they did immediately upon the pact. This was a term in the pact.

the trouble is, the Russians never invaded any of these, right after the pack was signed or the battle for Poland ended, they did politely ask to be allowed to station troops with in there borders, and 3 of the states agreed to let the Russians in, the 4th, refused, and the winter war followed

in June 40, the Russians finally invaded

Lithuania, being next to East Prussia was to be in the Germen zone, but a second secret protocol signed in Sept 39 allowed the Russians to have it in there zone

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 9:41:15 PM

BlueMak

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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evildan

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

Why would you want Germany to have the ability to declare war on Italy?

Why not? That's the fun of the game... exploring what if. Don't remove the options, however obsurd they may seem by putting in an artificial restriction. Much better to let the game effects cause you to dismiss the option

Why not have the US and Germany join the same side? Why not have France and Poland remain neutral? Some what if's are better left out IMO.
I do think having some nations set to neutral instead of leaning one way or the other would help, Norway and Vichy are two possibilities, but I don't know if the game system allows it.

There are other similar games that allowed such options. Well, for USA and USSR anyway. The great thing about it was that you didn't have to use them...you had the option to.

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 10:20:47 PM

Evildan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evildan

quote:

ORIGINAL: James Ward

Why would you want Germany to have the ability to declare war on Italy?

Why not? That's the fun of the game... exploring what if. Don't remove the options, however obsurd they may seem by putting in an artificial restriction. Much better to let the game effects cause you to dismiss the option

Why not have the US and Germany join the same side? Why not have France and Poland remain neutral? Some what if's are better left out IMO.
I do think having some nations set to neutral instead of leaning one way or the other would help, Norway and Vichy are two possibilities, but I don't know if the game system allows it.

I agree, many what if's are not worth time pursueing, like Germany attacking Italy or France remaining nuetral. Very low priority. An easy optional setting could take care of those experiments. But the most important ones like making Norway invadeable, making Spain invadable or Vichy france from either side is an easy to do and worth while option, I think some might agree?

Better to get right down to it and ask the correct questions for discussion... should Germany be allowed to invade Spain? Should England be allowed to invade Norway? Should Italy be allowed to invade Vichy France or it's colonies? In a specific hypothetical example the Germans were considering invading Persia after Iraq in an attempt to increase border with Russia. Under the current system they have to use Diplo points to "get through" persia, but can go the much much simpler (Free) route through Iraq simply because they (Iraq) are not pro-axis. In this area it's quite easy to see what the Germans might have done, simply declare war on Persia. In the game DOW's are free for Germany so this puts this situation out of balance. The alignments of Iraq and Persia might be historically accurate, but the DOW restriction probably isn't? So in this example it might actually be A-historical as it stands in the game. but, we don't concern ourselves our cloud our judgment with history, mainly we desire play balance - and there's usually an historic-like solution for all of those problems (for the history buffs).

I'm sure I have other examples like a pro-axis Bulgaria in my last game that due to a drain of the Diplo points (or a missallocation), my Germans had to walk Around Bulgaria to attack Turkey.... same thing can be easily visualized with walking Around Rumania, or Hungary or Vichy France.
Here's a good one: Should US/England be dissallowed from invading Yugoslavia in a soft-underbelly variation where they make landfall in Greece instead of italy in 1943 or 1944? Or should Germany/Italy be comforted by the fixed rule that says you can't invade your pro-ally... Germany affixes thumb to nose and twiddles fingers back and forth to the Allies and says "Neener Neener, go and pound sand my friend" Example Absurd? Or it is?

But I ramble on James.... I think the message is here? I would venture a guess that the game designers put in the fixed Rule that Germany and Italy can't invade pro-axis countries for simplicity and it had some un-intended consequences. And they might already be considering changes in the area of Spain and other likely scenarios. Simply allowing Germany to attack All countries has probably less problems associated with it.

I an anxious to hear what the designers intend and if they plan to make adjustments?

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/14/2009 10:31:38 PM

Evildan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Disregard the historical situatin for Stalin. It's easier to view that the Soviets should simply invade the Baltic states as they did immediately upon the pact. This was a term in the pact.

the trouble is, the Russians never invaded any of these, right after the pack was signed or the battle for Poland ended, they did politely ask to be allowed to station troops with in there borders, and 3 of the states agreed to let the Russians in, the 4th, refused, and the winter war followed

in June 40, the Russians finally invaded

Lithuania, being next to East Prussia was to be in the Germen zone, but a second secret protocol signed in Sept 39 allowed the Russians to have it in there zone

I stand correct Hard, thanks. But the problem still remains. Which fix for it do you prefer?

1) Have the Soviets simply invade or be given control of the Baltic states - for a more historical solution
2) Allow Germany to invade them immediately as they can do, but fix the Soviet AI so that react by jumping 2 of the 3 Baltics immediately, or ripping up the pact papers. I think Germany can simply cheat and declare war on all 3, so really the ripping up of the pact papers seems the only option.
3) Prevent Germany from invading the Baltics for x number of turns to simulate them honouring the pact for a little while.

Each of these I trust is better then the current situation. Or are people still confused that this is a problem?

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RE: One quick AI fix - 4/15/2009 6:37:32 AM

Mike Dubost

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evildan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Disregard the historical situatin for Stalin. It's easier to view that the Soviets should simply invade the Baltic states as they did immediately upon the pact. This was a term in the pact.

the trouble is, the Russians never invaded any of these, right after the pack was signed or the battle for Poland ended, they did politely ask to be allowed to station troops with in there borders, and 3 of the states agreed to let the Russians in, the 4th, refused, and the winter war followed

in June 40, the Russians finally invaded

Lithuania, being next to East Prussia was to be in the Germen zone, but a second secret protocol signed in Sept 39 allowed the Russians to have it in there zone

I stand correct Hard, thanks. But the problem still remains. Which fix for it do you prefer?

1) Have the Soviets simply invade or be given control of the Baltic states - for a more historical solution
2) Allow Germany to invade them immediately as they can do, but fix the Soviet AI so that react by jumping 2 of the 3 Baltics immediately, or ripping up the pact papers. I think Germany can simply cheat and declare war on all 3, so really the ripping up of the pact papers seems the only option.
3) Prevent Germany from invading the Baltics for x number of turns to simulate them honouring the pact for a little while.

Each of these I trust is better then the current situation. Or are people still confused that this is a problem?

Speaking for myself, I would like to allow the Germans to invade the Baltic States any time, but make it near certain that the USSR would void the pact.

I would also like to fix it so the USSR does not automatically declare war on Germany on 1Jan1942. I have tried "stuffing the border" to discourage them, and it did no good. I have tried seeing if they go in early if you leave the border open, and they don't. One time, I had no units other than the Slovakian divsion on the border for the whole of 1940 and the first half of 1941, and it made no difference!

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Post #: 22