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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land

 
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RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/28/2009 4:52:28 AM   
sajbalk


Posts: 264
Joined: 7/11/2005
From: Davenport, Iowa
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

One question re the game - if a minor country is conquered, do I recall right that there is no ability for its future force pool additions to be built by the conquerer?



After looking at the minor country rules and the conquest rules I would say that you get the annual additions of a a minor country if you added the minors force pool before it was incompletely conquered untill the minor is completely conquered.

Cut from:
19.4 Minor country units
Production
After a minor country has aligned with you, you can choose to add its units (those not yet set-up) to your major power’s force pools. You can do this at any time while the minor is not conquered (incomplete or complete) but, once you do, its units must always go into your force pools as they become available.

13.7.1 Conquest
Complete conquest
When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country, it has been completely conquered. Thereafter, it is at peace with everyone it was at war with. Remove all its land and aircraft units from the game (exception: special Polish units, see 19.5.1). They no longer receive any annual additions to their force pools (see 4.1.1).

Warspite 1

Thanks Orm - so if for some reason Germany only invaded Holland in 1943 (and it had not been attacked by anyone else in the meantime), the CW as controlling power for example, would set up the Dutch units and these would include Van Oranje as its has 1941 on the back of the counter?


Yes.

There is a rule about some naval units going into the construction pool as "half built". I don't remember it off the top of my head but it depends on the year the unit was built historically (my guess is that if the situation you described happened in 1940, the Commonwealth would get the 1941 Dutch naval unit in its construction pool).


The conqueror never gets to build the conquered country's units, except perhaps for some naval units the conqueror captures.

A minor country may be incompletely conquered, then its future force pool could enter into the force pool of its aligning major power. For example, if the Netherlands is DOWed by Germany in 1940 and conquered, the NETH units in the NETH are all removed, as is any NETH units on the build chart. Any NETH units in the NEI or other minors stay alive. The NETH gets a 1941 reinforcement; if the CW chooses to add the NETH units to its force pool, the CW could build the unit.

When a minor is attacked, you set up any units that are dated prior to that year. Ships that are dated only 1 year prior start in the construction pool. Ships dated for the current year are treated as not started. Any land/air units for the current year or MIL come in as reinforcements the next turn.

Hope this helps.



_____________________________

Steve Balk
Iowa, USA

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1081
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/28/2009 6:16:59 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

One question re the game - if a minor country is conquered, do I recall right that there is no ability for its future force pool additions to be built by the conquerer?



After looking at the minor country rules and the conquest rules I would say that you get the annual additions of a a minor country if you added the minors force pool before it was incompletely conquered untill the minor is completely conquered.

Cut from:
19.4 Minor country units
Production
After a minor country has aligned with you, you can choose to add its units (those not yet set-up) to your major power’s force pools. You can do this at any time while the minor is not conquered (incomplete or complete) but, once you do, its units must always go into your force pools as they become available.

13.7.1 Conquest
Complete conquest
When a major power or minor country no longer controls its own or any aligned home country, it has been completely conquered. Thereafter, it is at peace with everyone it was at war with. Remove all its land and aircraft units from the game (exception: special Polish units, see 19.5.1). They no longer receive any annual additions to their force pools (see 4.1.1).

Warspite 1

Thanks Orm - so if for some reason Germany only invaded Holland in 1943 (and it had not been attacked by anyone else in the meantime), the CW as controlling power for example, would set up the Dutch units and these would include Van Oranje as its has 1941 on the back of the counter?


Yes.

There is a rule about some naval units going into the construction pool as "half built". I don't remember it off the top of my head but it depends on the year the unit was built historically (my guess is that if the situation you described happened in 1940, the Commonwealth would get the 1941 Dutch naval unit in its construction pool).


The conqueror never gets to build the conquered country's units, except perhaps for some naval units the conqueror captures.

A minor country may be incompletely conquered, then its future force pool could enter into the force pool of its aligning major power. For example, if the Netherlands is DOWed by Germany in 1940 and conquered, the NETH units in the NETH are all removed, as is any NETH units on the build chart. Any NETH units in the NEI or other minors stay alive. The NETH gets a 1941 reinforcement; if the CW chooses to add the NETH units to its force pool, the CW could build the unit.

When a minor is attacked, you set up any units that are dated prior to that year. Ships that are dated only 1 year prior start in the construction pool. Ships dated for the current year are treated as not started. Any land/air units for the current year or MIL come in as reinforcements the next turn.

Hope this helps.




I was refering to the aligning power and not the conquering.

In order for CW to get the Netherlands units CW must have decided to add the Netherland units to its force pool before it is incompletely conquered.

See:
19.4 Minor country units
Production
After a minor country has aligned with you, you can choose to add its units (those not yet set-up) to your major power’s force pools. You can do this at any time while the minor is not conquered (incomplete or complete) but, once you do, its units must always go into your force pools as they become available.



_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to sajbalk)
Post #: 1082
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/28/2009 7:17:27 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I am not sure if there are any Dutch on this Forum but if so then this is for you! The Dutch Navy write-ups are almost complete (one transport and a submarine to go). I am posting three write-ups for the usual feed-back, particularly important as Dutch info is more difficult to come by compared to the Royal Navy and research time is now limited. Before turning draft to final, I would like to know if there are any obvious errors. One question re the game - if a minor country is conquered, do I recall right that there is no ability for its future force pool additions to be built by the conquerer?

Many thanks

1/3

[4746 De Ruyter - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 66,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 32 knots
.B Main armament: 7 x 5.9-inch (150mm), 10 x 40mm guns
.B Displacement (Standard): 7,548 tons
.B Thickest armour: 2-inch (belt)
.P The Dutch Navy`s principal role was the protection of her main overseas
possession, the Dutch East Indies. The East Indies (modern day Indonesia)
provided the Netherlands with oil and other raw materials to meet her own
requirements and also provided her with vital export income.
.P To counter the growing threat to the colony posed by the Japanese, in 1930
the Dutch ordered the construction of a cruiser and five submarines. The
cruiser, named De Ruyter, was intended to join the two existing cruisers on
station.
.P Due to financial constraints she was limited to just 5,250 tons, although
during the construction phase there was some relaxation and she eventually came
in at 7,548 full load. The extra weight was caused by increasing her length and
in turn, this allowed the fitting of a single 5.9-inch "B" turret.
.P Her main armament was not impressive for a light cruiser and her anti-
aircraft (AA) armament was of limited use due to the concentration of the guns
aft. This provided only limited arcs of fire. These drawbacks were off-set
somewhat by her excellent fire control system.
.P Her top speed was 32 knots and she had an overload feature which increased
this to 33.5 knots for short periods.
.P De Ruyter was completed in October 1936 and sailed almost immediately for the
Far East where she arrived in March 1937.
.P When Holland was defeated by the Germans in May 1940, Dutch shipping in
European waters were placed under the control of the Admiralty, although this
did not apply to the forces guarding the Dutch East Indies and the naval forces
continued operating in the waters there under Dutch control.
.P In response to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and Malaya in December
1941, the Dutch declared war on Japan the following day. De Ruyter and other
Dutch ships assisted the passage of Allied convoys as the British sought to hold
onto Malaya and Singapore; all to no avail. The calamitous start to the war with
Japan brought the assortment of American, British, Dutch and Australian naval
forces together under ABDA command on the 15th January 1942.
.P De Ruyter first saw action on the 4th February. She was the Flagship of Rear-
Admiral Doorman`s mixed US/Dutch force that also consisted of the cruisers
HNLMS Tromp, USS Houston and USS Marblehead and three Dutch and four US
destroyers. They were tasked with intercepting an enemy convoy heading for
Makassar but were spotted by an enemy aircraft and attacked in force. The two
US cruisers were badly damaged and, without air cover himself, Doorman withdrew.
This action is known as the Battle of Makassar Strait.
.P On the 13th February Doorman attempted to attack another Japanese invasion
convoy. This time his force consisted of the cruisers De Ruyter, Tromp, Java,
HMS Exeter and HMAS Hobart together with four Dutch and six US destroyers. Once
again however, the Allied ships failed to get anywhere near the convoy before
being attacked by aircraft on the 15th. This time there was no damage to the
Allied force but it was another demoralising episode.
.P Upon the sighting of another invasion fleet on the 18th; this time making for
Bali, Doorman set out with Java and three destroyers. They were later joined by
Tromp and four US destroyers. The piecemeal arrival of the Allied ships and the
lack of time to prepare all contributed to another defeat for ABDA command. The
operation started badly as the submarines USS Seawolf and HMS Truant were unable
to attack the convoy due to the heavy escort. In the ensuing engagement that
came to be known as the Battle of Badung Strait, the Tromp was badly damaged
and had to retire to Australia for repair, but for the destroyer Piet Hein, the
battle was to be her last. She was struck by a deadly Long Lance torpedo while
trying to make a torpedo attack herself. She sunk within a matter of minutes.
For no gain, the Allied force had to withdraw once more.
.P De Ruyter`s final battle came on the 27th February 1942; the Battle of the
Java Sea. With the seemingly unstoppable Japanese about to strike at Java, every
ship available to Doorman sailed to try and destroy the troop transports. For
this operation Doorman had the heavy cruisers HMS Exeter and the still damaged,
USS Houston; the light cruisers De Ruyter, Java and HMAS Perth and three
British, two Dutch and four US destroyers.
.P The Japanese convoy was escorted by two heavy cruisers, Nachi and Haguro, two
light cruisers, Naka and Jintsu and fourteen destroyers under the command of
Rear-Admiral Nishimura. The Japanese cruisers were more powerfully armed, a
disparity made worse by the damage to Houston`s B turret. They also had the Long
Lance torpedo that was to cause so much damage to the Allied ships.
.P The battle lasted over seven hours as the Allies continually tried to break
through to the troop convoy; each time without success. The battle began at
1616hrs but neither side was able to achieve any hits with one exception. Exeter
was struck by an unlucky shot that smashed into her boiler room. Doorman had
little choice but to order her withdrawal and she left the scene accompanied by
the Dutch destroyer Witte De With.
.P The next phase of the battle saw the Japanese launch a mass torpedo attack
and again the Japanese were in luck. The destroyer Kortenaer was hit by a single
torpedo and she broke in two before quickly disappearing beneath the waves. The
next victim was the British destroyer Electra, she inflicted damage on two enemy
ships but not without damage to herself and she soon had to be abandoned.
.P With things going from bad to worse Doorman broke off at 1800hrs. With night
falling the Allied ships then double backed and tried to take the convoy from
the rear. The four US destroyers however were not with them as they returned to
Java, out of ammunition. A second British destroyer, Jupiter hit a mine and sank
at 2125hrs.
.P The Allied ships had not got around the escorts however, and at 2300hrs, fire
was once more exchanged. The Long Lance torpedo then came into play with
devastating effect and both the De Ruyter and Java were hit about thirty minutes
later. For both, the damage caused was terminal and they both sank in the early
hours of the following morning. The two remaining cruisers and one destroyer
meanwhile had withdrawn.
.P 345 officers and men died aboard De Ruyter including Doorman.

I recently finished reading "Ship of Ghosts" by James D. Hornfischer, which is about the USS Houston. According to this book, it was her rear turret that was put out of action on Feb. 4th. So I think that would be Turret C (referred to as Turret Three in the book).

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1083
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/28/2009 7:41:56 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I am not sure if there are any Dutch on this Forum but if so then this is for you! The Dutch Navy write-ups are almost complete (one transport and a submarine to go). I am posting three write-ups for the usual feed-back, particularly important as Dutch info is more difficult to come by compared to the Royal Navy and research time is now limited. Before turning draft to final, I would like to know if there are any obvious errors. One question re the game - if a minor country is conquered, do I recall right that there is no ability for its future force pool additions to be built by the conquerer?

Many thanks

1/3

[4746 De Ruyter - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 66,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 32 knots
.B Main armament: 7 x 5.9-inch (150mm), 10 x 40mm guns
.B Displacement (Standard): 7,548 tons
.B Thickest armour: 2-inch (belt)
.P The Dutch Navy`s principal role was the protection of her main overseas
possession, the Dutch East Indies. The East Indies (modern day Indonesia)
provided the Netherlands with oil and other raw materials to meet her own
requirements and also provided her with vital export income.
.P To counter the growing threat to the colony posed by the Japanese, in 1930
the Dutch ordered the construction of a cruiser and five submarines. The
cruiser, named De Ruyter, was intended to join the two existing cruisers on
station.
.P Due to financial constraints she was limited to just 5,250 tons, although
during the construction phase there was some relaxation and she eventually came
in at 7,548 full load. The extra weight was caused by increasing her length and
in turn, this allowed the fitting of a single 5.9-inch "B" turret.
.P Her main armament was not impressive for a light cruiser and her anti-
aircraft (AA) armament was of limited use due to the concentration of the guns
aft. This provided only limited arcs of fire. These drawbacks were off-set
somewhat by her excellent fire control system.
.P Her top speed was 32 knots and she had an overload feature which increased
this to 33.5 knots for short periods.
.P De Ruyter was completed in October 1936 and sailed almost immediately for the
Far East where she arrived in March 1937.
.P When Holland was defeated by the Germans in May 1940, Dutch shipping in
European waters were placed under the control of the Admiralty, although this
did not apply to the forces guarding the Dutch East Indies and the naval forces
continued operating in the waters there under Dutch control.
.P In response to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and Malaya in December
1941, the Dutch declared war on Japan the following day. De Ruyter and other
Dutch ships assisted the passage of Allied convoys as the British sought to hold
onto Malaya and Singapore; all to no avail. The calamitous start to the war with
Japan brought the assortment of American, British, Dutch and Australian naval
forces together under ABDA command on the 15th January 1942.
.P De Ruyter first saw action on the 4th February. She was the Flagship of Rear-
Admiral Doorman`s mixed US/Dutch force that also consisted of the cruisers
HNLMS Tromp, USS Houston and USS Marblehead and three Dutch and four US
destroyers. They were tasked with intercepting an enemy convoy heading for
Makassar but were spotted by an enemy aircraft and attacked in force. The two
US cruisers were badly damaged and, without air cover himself, Doorman withdrew.
This action is known as the Battle of Makassar Strait.
.P On the 13th February Doorman attempted to attack another Japanese invasion
convoy. This time his force consisted of the cruisers De Ruyter, Tromp, Java,
HMS Exeter and HMAS Hobart together with four Dutch and six US destroyers. Once
again however, the Allied ships failed to get anywhere near the convoy before
being attacked by aircraft on the 15th. This time there was no damage to the
Allied force but it was another demoralising episode.
.P Upon the sighting of another invasion fleet on the 18th; this time making for
Bali, Doorman set out with Java and three destroyers. They were later joined by
Tromp and four US destroyers. The piecemeal arrival of the Allied ships and the
lack of time to prepare all contributed to another defeat for ABDA command. The
operation started badly as the submarines USS Seawolf and HMS Truant were unable
to attack the convoy due to the heavy escort. In the ensuing engagement that
came to be known as the Battle of Badung Strait, the Tromp was badly damaged
and had to retire to Australia for repair, but for the destroyer Piet Hein, the
battle was to be her last. She was struck by a deadly Long Lance torpedo while
trying to make a torpedo attack herself. She sunk within a matter of minutes.
For no gain, the Allied force had to withdraw once more.
.P De Ruyter`s final battle came on the 27th February 1942; the Battle of the
Java Sea. With the seemingly unstoppable Japanese about to strike at Java, every
ship available to Doorman sailed to try and destroy the troop transports. For
this operation Doorman had the heavy cruisers HMS Exeter and the still damaged,
USS Houston; the light cruisers De Ruyter, Java and HMAS Perth and three
British, two Dutch and four US destroyers.
.P The Japanese convoy was escorted by two heavy cruisers, Nachi and Haguro, two
light cruisers, Naka and Jintsu and fourteen destroyers under the command of
Rear-Admiral Nishimura. The Japanese cruisers were more powerfully armed, a
disparity made worse by the damage to Houston`s B turret. They also had the Long
Lance torpedo that was to cause so much damage to the Allied ships.
.P The battle lasted over seven hours as the Allies continually tried to break
through to the troop convoy; each time without success. The battle began at
1616hrs but neither side was able to achieve any hits with one exception. Exeter
was struck by an unlucky shot that smashed into her boiler room. Doorman had
little choice but to order her withdrawal and she left the scene accompanied by
the Dutch destroyer Witte De With.
.P The next phase of the battle saw the Japanese launch a mass torpedo attack
and again the Japanese were in luck. The destroyer Kortenaer was hit by a single
torpedo and she broke in two before quickly disappearing beneath the waves. The
next victim was the British destroyer Electra, she inflicted damage on two enemy
ships but not without damage to herself and she soon had to be abandoned.
.P With things going from bad to worse Doorman broke off at 1800hrs. With night
falling the Allied ships then double backed and tried to take the convoy from
the rear. The four US destroyers however were not with them as they returned to
Java, out of ammunition. A second British destroyer, Jupiter hit a mine and sank
at 2125hrs.
.P The Allied ships had not got around the escorts however, and at 2300hrs, fire
was once more exchanged. The Long Lance torpedo then came into play with
devastating effect and both the De Ruyter and Java were hit about thirty minutes
later. For both, the damage caused was terminal and they both sank in the early
hours of the following morning. The two remaining cruisers and one destroyer
meanwhile had withdrawn.
.P 345 officers and men died aboard De Ruyter including Doorman.

I recently finished reading "Ship of Ghosts" by James D. Hornfischer, which is about the USS Houston. According to this book, it was her rear turret that was put out of action on Feb. 4th. So I think that would be Turret C (referred to as Turret Three in the book).

Warspite1

Thanks Paul that`s helpful - I`ll amend to aft turret. It never ceases to amaze how difficult it is to get consistent info on some of this stuff.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/28/2009 10:54:05 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 1084
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/28/2009 1:21:26 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
The Spanish Navy is now complete. I attach one of the write-ups for feed-back and would ask for particular attention re my comment on the ships sunk. If in reality, a ship was sunk pre-1939 as some of the Spanish ships were, are they still available in the game or are these counters provided in the game for people playing with DOD only? Also, was the Spanish Navy called the Armada Espanola in Franco`s time? Finally, I have conflicting info as to whether her main armament was 5.9-inch or 6-inch - any offers?

Thanks again in advance.

[5094 Mendez Nuñez - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 45,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 29 knots
.B Main armament: 8 x 6-inch (152mm), 4 x 47mm guns
.B Displacement (full load): 3,918 tons
.B Thickest armour: 3-inches (belt)
.P By the time of the Second World War, the Mendez Nunez was the only survivor
of the two-ship Nunez-class, her sister ship Blas De Lezo having been wrecked in
1932. The ships were light cruisers built in the early twenties and named after
famous Spanish Admirals; Mendez Nunez being named after their 19th century naval
hero Admiral Casto Mendez Nunez.
.P Although the ships were completed in the twenties, they had been designed
during the First World War. Such delays in completion times were a common
feature of Spanish naval construction at that time despite the fact that the
Spanish Government had set up an armaments company (SECN) in 1908 to re-build
the Spanish Navy after its losses in the 1898 war with the US.
.P The ships bore similarities to the Royal Navy`s C-class cruisers no doubt due
to the fact that a quarter of the SECN was owned by three British armaments
firms that provided Spain with design and build expertise.
.P During the Spanish Civil War, the Mendez Nunez was part of the Republican
Navy and she took part in the only major naval action of that war at Cape Palos.
During this encounter the Nationalists lost the cruiser Baleares. Nunez survived
the civil war and so unlike some Spanish ships in World In Flames, she would
have been available to the Armada Espanola during World War II.
.P From 1944 to 1947, Mendez Nunez underwent a major reconstruction and she was
converted to an anti-aircraft (AA) cruiser. Her AA armament following this
reconstruction consisted of ten 4.7-inch, ten 37mm and eight 20mm guns. She was
changed visually too, with new superstructure and her one funnel split into two.
.P Mendez Nunez was scrapped in the sixties.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/28/2009 1:39:52 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1085
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/28/2009 2:33:26 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The Spanish Navy is now complete. I attach one of the write-ups for feed-back and would ask for particular attention re my comment on the ships sunk. If in reality, a ship was sunk pre-1939 as some of the Spanish ships were, are they still available in the game or are these counters provided in the game for people playing with DOD only? Also, was the Spanish Navy called the Armada Espanola in Franco`s time? Finally, I have conflicting info as to whether her main armament was 5.9-inch or 6-inch - any offers?

Thanks again in advance.

[5094 Mendez Nuñez - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 45,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 29 knots
.B Main armament: 8 x 6-inch (152mm), 4 x 47mm guns
.B Displacement (full load): 3,918 tons
.B Thickest armour: 3-inches (belt)
.P By the time of the Second World War, the Mendez Nunez was the only survivor
of the two-ship Nunez-class, her sister ship Blas De Lezo having been wrecked in
1932. The ships were light cruisers built in the early twenties and named after
famous Spanish Admirals; Mendez Nunez being named after their 19th century naval
hero Admiral Casto Mendez Nunez.
.P Although the ships were completed in the twenties, they had been designed
during the First World War. Such delays in completion times were a common
feature of Spanish naval construction at that time despite the fact that the
Spanish Government had set up an armaments company (SECN) in 1908 to re-build
the Spanish Navy after its losses in the 1898 war with the US.
.P The ships bore similarities to the Royal Navy`s C-class cruisers no doubt due
to the fact that a quarter of the SECN was owned by three British armaments
firms that provided Spain with design and build expertise.
.P During the Spanish Civil War, the Mendez Nunez was part of the Republican
Navy and she took part in the only major naval action of that war at Cape Palos.
During this encounter the Nationalists lost the cruiser Baleares. Nunez survived
the civil war and so unlike some Spanish ships in World In Flames, she would
have been available to the Armada Espanola during World War II.
.P From 1944 to 1947, Mendez Nunez underwent a major reconstruction and she was
converted to an anti-aircraft (AA) cruiser. Her AA armament following this
reconstruction consisted of ten 4.7-inch, ten 37mm and eight 20mm guns. She was
changed visually too, with new superstructure and her one funnel split into two.
.P Mendez Nunez was scrapped in the sixties.


My guess on the conflicting figures on the main armamament is that the guns is 15 cm (150mm) and that some correctly round that to 5.9 inches and others round up to 6 inches. But as I said, I am only guessing.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1086
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/28/2009 2:54:43 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
Deleted.

< Message edited by Orm -- 6/28/2009 2:58:34 PM >


_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1087
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/28/2009 2:56:19 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The Spanish Navy is now complete. I attach one of the write-ups for feed-back and would ask for particular attention re my comment on the ships sunk. If in reality, a ship was sunk pre-1939 as some of the Spanish ships were, are they still available in the game or are these counters provided in the game for people playing with DOD only?


They are not set up. They are however available to be built if the controlling major power adds the minors units to his force pool. So they are not only for DOD.

Cut from:
19.4 Minor country units
Setting up
Set up on the map each of the minor’s naval units that has a date on its back that is at least 2 years earlier except those sunk prior to the start of the scenario. For example, in the Global War campaign, if your opponent declares war on Spain in 1940, you would set up all the Spanish ships that have 1938 or earlier on the back of their counter except for the España.


< Message edited by Orm -- 6/28/2009 2:57:15 PM >


_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1088
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/28/2009 5:16:56 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
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The Chinese Navy is almost done - just waiting on some technical details for the two Ying Swei-class. Attached is one actual and one "what if" counter.

Question - Does anyone know what the "What if" counters Hai Yin and Pong Ho could be named after?

[5077 Ning Hai - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 9,500 hp
.B Top Speed: 22.25 knots
.B Main armament: 6 x 5.5-inch (140mm), 6 x 76mm guns
.B Displacement (standard): 2,500 tons
.B Thickest armour: 1-inch armour for the deck and turrets (no belt armour)
.P The Ning-Hai`s were a two-ship class of light cruisers built during the
thirties. Although classed as cruisers, these ships were nothing of the sort.
They were small vessels with a shallow draught that meant they were ideally
suited to coastal waters or inland waters such as the great Yangtse river.
.P The ships were designed by the Japanese. Although small, they were powerfully
armed for their size, with six 5.5-inch main guns. They were, however, very
lightly armoured. Ning Hai carried two aircraft but Ping Hai did not have this
capability.
.P The two ships began life very differently. Ning Hai was built in Japan and
was ready for service in 1932. Her sister Ping Hai was built in China under
Japanese supervision. When the Japanese withdrew their technical personnel in
1933, the ship`s construction had to be halted. It was only with German
assistance that she was able to be completed but even then she was not launched
until June 1936.
.P The Sino-Japanese war began just over a year later and the two ships lasted
just two months. They were deployed in the Yangtse near the capital Nanking when
they were sunk by Japanese aircraft. After the Japanese had taken Nanking, they
re-floated and repaired the ships and they remained in the Yangtse to defend the
old Chinese Capital.
.P In 1943 they were transferred to the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) for use as
convoy escorts in coastal waters. They were re-named as Yasoshima (Ping Hai) and
Ioshima (Ning Hai). Their IJN careers lasted little longer than their Chinese
Navy careers had done. Ning Hai was sunk off Honshu on the 19th September 1944
by a torpedo from the US submarine Shad and Yasoshima was destroyed by US
aircraft in the Philippines two months later.


[5074 Mme. Chiang - by Robert Jenkins]
.P MMe Chiang is a World In Flames "what if" counter that allows the Chinese
player to build a basic aircraft carrier provided she has access to her port
facilities.
.P In reality, during the Sino-Japanese war the Japanese were able to occupy
China`s main ports and so naval construction was impossible.
.P There are no technical details for this truly hypothetical vessel as she was
not even planned. The ship is named after Soong May-ling the wife of Chiang
Kai-Shek, the Chinese Nationalist leader during the Second World War.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 6/28/2009 8:06:04 PM >


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(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1089
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 6/28/2009 8:52:59 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Question re the Naval write ups:

Is anyone doing anything with the Amphibious and Transport counters? I assume there is no intention to do write ups for these (the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth and the German Auxilaries excepted)?

Also Steve - in Mech in Flames there are Monitors called Roberts and Roberts II. I can only see Roberts II on the Naval Unit Write Up Sheet. Can you let me know what ID no. Roberts should have please?

I think something could be written about the amphibious fleets of different countries. I would be glad to do this. Email me with info about which ones to do.

Warspite 1

Fred - did you ever do any of these?


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to wfzimmerman)
Post #: 1090
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/3/2009 8:23:25 PM   
warspite1


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I have begun looking at the US carriers and have started with the famous Essex carriers. Please see attached. As usual I would be greatful for feedback - particularly since I have three books given me three different numbers - 3, 4 and 5-inch -for the belt armour!

[4016 Antietam - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 150,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 33 knots
.B Main armament: 12 x 5-inch (127mm), Variable number of 20mm and 40mm guns
.B Aircraft: 93
.B Displacement (full load): 36,000 tons
.B Thickest armour: 4-inch (belt)
.P The Essex-class aircraft carriers were the most famous carrier-class of
the Second World War. The US Navy, had originally conceived the class as being
25,000 ton, improved Yorktowns that would be able to operate the new, larger
aircraft then under development. The planned displacement rose during the final
design phase as extra armour and anti-aircraft (AA) protection was added.
.P The Essex-class were actually split into Essex and Ticonderoga-classes with
the only noticeable difference being the increased length of the later ships
which allowed the placing of two quadruple 40mm guns at the bow. These were
below the flight deck and so did not interfere with aircraft operation.
.P The AA package was comprehensive and supporting the twelve 5-inch guns were a
variable number of 40mm and 20mm close-range weapons.
.P US carriers did not have armoured flight decks, but the Essex-class had
horizontal protection at the hangar deck level with 2.5-inch armour covering the
vital machinery and magazine spaces. Belt armour was 4-inches at its thickest.
.P The number of aircraft they were able to carry was similarly impressive. The
make-up of an air group altered during the war, but for the war`s final year was
seventy-three fighters, fifteen dive-bombers and fifteen torpedo bombers. These
aircraft were able to call on around 190,000 Imperial gallons of aviation fuel.
.P The carriers were fitted with one hanger that was served by three lifts. On-
deck, there were originally three catapults but one was later removed. Later
models of the two remaining catapults were capable of launching 18,000lbs at 78
knots.
.P Thirty-two carriers were planned, but the last six were cancelled in March
1945 before they had been laid down, and a further two ships were cancelled just
before the war ended.
.P USS Antietam, named after perhaps the bloodiest of the US Civil War battles
was from the Ticonderoga group and was commissioned in January 1945. She was en-
route to the waters off Japan when the armistice was signed and so was not to
see combat during the Second World War.
.P USS Antietam was scrapped in 1974.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1091
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/4/2009 9:38:22 PM   
warspite1


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Here is the first of the Essex-class with a combat record. This counter covers the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot.

[4021 Bunker Hill - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 150,000 hp
.B Top Speed: 33 knots
.B Main armament: 12 x 5-inch (127mm), Variable number of 20mm and 40mm guns
.B Aircraft: 93
.B Displacement (full load): 36,000 tons
.B Thickest armour: 4-inch (belt)
.P The Essex-class aircraft carriers were the most famous carrier-class of
the Second World War. The US Navy, had originally conceived the class as being
25,000 ton, improved Yorktowns that would be able to operate the new, larger
aircraft then under development. The planned displacement rose during the final
design phase as extra armour and anti-aircraft (AA) protection was added.
.P The Essex-class were actually split into Essex and Ticonderoga-classes with
the only noticeable difference being the increased length of the later ships
which allowed the placing of two quadruple 40mm guns at the bow. These were
below the flight deck and so did not interfere with aircraft operation.
.P The AA package was comprehensive and supporting the twelve 5-inch guns were a
variable number of 40mm and 20mm close-range weapons.
.P US carriers did not have armoured flight decks, but the Essex-class had
horizontal protection at the hangar deck level with 2.5-inch armour covering the
vital machinery and magazine spaces. Belt armour was 4-inches at its thickest.
.P The number of aircraft they were able to carry was similarly impressive. The
make-up of an air group altered during the war, but for the war`s final year was
seventy-three fighters, fifteen dive-bombers and fifteen torpedo bombers. These
aircraft were able to call on around 190,000 Imperial gallons of aviation fuel.
.P The carriers were fitted with one hanger that was served by three lifts. On-
deck, there were originally three catapults but one was later removed. Later
models of the two remaining catapults were capable of launching 18,000lbs at 78
knots.
.P Thirty-two carriers were planned, but the last six were cancelled in March
1945 before they had been laid down, and a further two ships were cancelled just
before the war ended.
.P USS Bunker Hill, named, like many US Navy carriers, after battles of the
American War of Independence, was commissioned in May 1943. She was a carrier
of the Essex group.
.P After work-up she was sent to the Pacific and in 1943, took part in a number
of operations against the Japanese. This included the air strikes against Rabaul
in November, where she was part of Task Force (TF) 38, US 3rd Fleet under
Rear-Admiral Sherman. This was followed by Galvanic; the operation to re-take
the Gilbert Islands later that month. For this operation Bunker Hill was part of
Task Group (TG) 50.3 under Rear-Admiral Montgomery. In December, she finished
the year supporting two raids. The first was as part of TG.50.8 against the
island of Nauru and the second, as part of TG.50.2 against Kavieng, New Ireland.
.P At the start of 1944, Bunker Hill, now part of 5th Fleet, took part in an
attack on a convoy off Kavieng, during which two Japanese cruisers were damaged.
At the end of that month US attention was turned to re-taking the Marshall
Islands; Operation Flintlock. For this, Bunker Hill was part of TG.58.3 under
Sherman, one of four large TG`s that helped to neutralise the enemy defences on
Kwajalein ahead of the actual invasion. In mid-February, three TG`s were sent to
attack the Japanese naval base and fortress of Truk; Operation Hailstone. Bunker
Hill`s TG was one of these, and some of her aircraft sunk the cruiser Naka
during this highly successful operation.
.P In March, the US Navy launched Operation Desecrate; carrier strikes against
Palau, Yap and Woleai. For this, Bunker Hill was part of TG.58.2 under Rear-
Admiral Montgomery. However, the Japanese were warned of the advance of the US
ships and their fleet sailed from Palau to avoid attack.
.P In April, Bunker Hill took part in the landings at Hollandia in New Guinea.
She remained in the same TG for this operation which was responsible for
supporting the landings at Humboldt Bay.
.P Halfway through 1944 and the US juggernaut continued rolling back the
Japanese defences. Next stop was the Marianas. This operation opened with
carrier strikes from the four TG`s against all islands in the Marianas. Bunker
Hill was still part of TG.58.2 for this operation, code-named Forager. Saipan,
the first of the islands, fell on the 9th July. However, before that, a naval
battle was fought; The Battle of the Philippine Sea, which was the largest
carrier battle of the Second World War and a battle that became known as the
Great Marianas Turkey Shoot.
.P TF58 was under the command of Vice-Admiral Mitscher. He had at his disposal
the following ships: TG.58.1, the fleet carriers Hornet and Yorktown, the light
carriers Belleau Wood and Bataan; the heavy cruisers Boston, Canberra and
Baltimore; the light cruisers Oakland and San Juan and fourteen destroyers.
TG.58.2 contained the fleet carriers Bunker Hill and Wasp; the light carriers
Monterey and Cabot; the light cruisers Santa Fe, Mobile and Biloxi and twelve
destroyers. TG.58.3 contained the fleet carriers Enterprise and Lexington
(Flagship of Mitscher); the light carriers Princeton and San Jacinto; the heavy
cruiser Indianapolis; the light cruisers Montpelier, Cleveland and Birmingham
and thirteen destroyers. TG.58.4 contained the fleet carrier Essex; the light
fleet carriers Cowpens and Langley; the cruisers Vincennes, Miami, Houston and
San Diego and fourteen destroyers. In addition, TG.58.7 (the Battle Line),
consisted of the battleships Washington, North Carolina, Iowa, New Jersey, South
Dakota, Alabama and Indiana; the heavy cruisers Wichita, Minneapolis, New
Orleans and San Francisco and fourteen destroyers.
.P The Japanese had to make a stand rather than simply let the Americans take
one island after another and had gathered their Mobile Fleet under the command
of Vice-Admiral Ozawa. This fleet consisted of: the Van Force with the light
carriers Chitose, Chiyoda and Zuiho; the battleships Yamato, Musashi, Kongo and
Haruna; the heavy cruisers Atago, Maya, Takao, Tone, Chikuma, Chokai, Kumano and
Suzuya; the light cruiser Noshiro and nine destroyers. Force A consisted of the
fleet carriers Taiho (Flagship of Ozawa), Zuikaku and Shokaku; the heavy
cruisers Myoko and Haguro; the light cruiser Yahagi and nine destroyers. Force B
contained the fleet carriers Junyo and Hiyo; the light carrier Ryuho; the
battleship Nagato; the heavy cruiser Mogami and ten destroyers.
.P The Japanese hoped to reverse the result at Midway, where it was the
Americans that had a smaller carrier air component, but had the advantage of
land based aircraft. This operation, named A-Go, was designed to smash the US
Fleet in one decisive encounter. Unfortunately for the Japanese, they guessed
wrong about the target for the US attack and so concentrated their land based
aircraft in the Central Pacific, away from the Marianas. The carrier aircraft
that could be fielded by the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) was almost exactly
half the nine-hundred and sixty aircraft the US Navy could muster; and of course
after recent losses, the Japanese pilots were for the most part short on
training and experience. It was a bad start to the operation.
.P After US air attacks against the Marianas, Ozawa sailed north east from the
Mobile Fleet`s base at Tawi Tawi, North Borneo with one mission; to destroy the
US Fleet. He was not aware that the earlier US attacks had destroyed a large
part of the land based aircraft and to compound matters, the Japanese were
spotted immediately by US submarines.
.P In the evening of the 18th June a controversial decision was made by Admiral
Spruance, who was in overall charge of the US 5th Fleet. Intelligence reported
that Mitscher`s TF58 was about three hundred and fifty miles north east of the
approaching Japanese. Mitscher requested that he sail his task force toward the
enemy during the night and then attack with an all-out air strike first thing
the next day. But the request was declined. Spruance, it must be remembered, was
also responsible for the safety of the invasion shipping. Realising that the
Japanese could sail around his approaching Fleet and be free to attack the
transports, Spruance was not prepared to take the risk. As a result, Spruance
ordered the Fleet sail east to protect the transports. Aware that the range of
the Japanese aircraft was greater than the Americans, and knowing that the
Japanese could now attack them the next morning, Mitscher was furious.
.P In the early morning of the 19th, the TF58 ships were still in their TG`s
with the strongest three carrier groups about twelve miles apart running north
to south. To the west was the Battle Line, with TG.58.4 north of it. Each TG was
arranged in a circle to provide the best defence.
.P Approaching the Americans were the Japanese, with the Van Force about one
hundred miles ahead of the other two Forces. The battle opened with a Japanese
scout plane being shot out of the sky at 0550hrs by ships of the Battle Line.
At 1000hrs the first wave of Ozawa`s aircraft, totalling sixty-nine Zero`s and
Jill`s was met by over two hundred Hellcats that had been alerted by radar. For
the loss of four pilots killed and some slight damage to South Dakota, the
Americans had devastated the first wave; just twenty-seven aircraft returned to
their carriers.
.P Just over one hour later the second wave, consisting of one hundred and
eleven aircraft was detected. Again, the Hellcats shot much of the attacking
force out of the sky supported by the AA fire from the ships. No less than
ninety-seven aircraft of the second wave were lost. On this occasion, the enemy
aircraft did at least do some damage to three of the carriers including Bunker
Hill who lost two crewmen to a near miss.
.P The third wave was something of a non-event as forty-seven aircraft attacked,
with seven shot down but the remainder returning for home before many had even
pressed home their attack. The final attack of the battle was a dis-jointed
affair with some aircraft failing to find any US ships; as a result they headed
for Guam to re-fuel, but were attacked by Hellcats launched to intercept them.
.P The naval aviators had had little help from their land based counterparts.
For one thing there were only about fifty aircraft available on Guam. To make
matters worse, the Americans had picked up on radar, aircraft flying in from
other islands to reinforce those at Guam. Aircraft from Belleau Wood shot down
thirty-five of these aircraft.
.P The US 5th Fleet had lost a mere twenty-nine pilots in total together with
thirty-one sailors from the ships hit and near-missed. The Japanese naval air
arm however had suffered terribly. From four hundred and seventy-five aircraft
available at the start of the battle, the Japanese could call upon only one
hundred and twenty-six the next day. As if all that was not bad enough, the IJN
lost their Flagship Taiho and the Shokaku to the submarines Albacore and Cavalla
respectively.
.P Mitscher was ordered to chase after the Japanese Fleet and the battle resumed
on the 20th June (see USS Cowpens) with further success for the USN.
.P In August, Bunker Hill took part in an attack on a Japanese convoy off Iwo
Jima (see USS Cabot). Then in September, she helped cover the invasion of Palaus
(see USS Belleau Wood) and this was followed by action at Leyte in October (see
USS Hancock). In November, she returned to the US for a refit.
.P The refit was completed in January 1945 and Bunker Hill returned to the
Western Pacific in time to participate in the February invasion of Iwo Jima (see
USS Langley) and in raids on targets in Japan during March (see USS Randolph).
As flagship of Task Force 58, she was also active in the next big operation, to
capture Okinawa (see USS Bennington), and she provided aircraft for the massive
effort to sink the Japanese battleship Yamato on 7th April (see USS Yorktown).
While off Okinawa on 11th May, Bunker Hill was hit by two Kamikaze suicide
aircraft. The damage to the carrier was acute and it was a testimony to her crew
and her design that she was able to return to the US under her own steam.
However, 389 officers and men were killed and a further 264 were wounded. Her
fighting war however was over.
.P USS Bunker Hill was scrapped in 1973.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1092
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/5/2009 6:31:38 AM   
warspite1


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I have started to look at the Royal Swedish Navy and Lars - this one`s for you.

[4965 Tre Kronor - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 90,000 hp.
.B Top Speed: 33 knots.
.B Main armament: 7 x 6-inch (152mm) guns, 27 x 40mm Bofors
.B Displacement (full load): 9,200 tons.
.B Thickest armour: 2.8-inch (belt)
.P The Tre Kronor`s were a two-ship class of cruisers built for the Royal
Swedish Navy between 1943 and 1947. Their original design was carried out by an
Italian company in 1940, but these plans were heavily revised before the orders
were belatedly placed with Swedish shipyards in 1943.
.P They were given the names Tre Kronor (Three Crowns) and Gota Lejon (Lion of
the Goths).
.P These were powerful light cruisers that featured seven fully automatic 6-inch
guns as their main armament. These guns had an elevation of seventy degrees,
thus providing an excellent anti-aircraft (AA) capability all in the one gun.
The layout of the main weaponry was one triple and two twin turrets. The AA
defence was supported by no less than twenty-seven 40mm Bofors.
.P These cruisers matched their contemporaries in other areas too, including a
sensible armour protection layout, and a top speed of 33 knots. They were
capable of laying mines; one hundred and sixty were carried, and housed six
torpedo tubes.
.P Unfortunately, after the initial design delays, their actual construction was
further delayed due to industrial disputes. As a result, the ships were only
completed in October 1947 (Tre Kronor) and December 1947 (Gota Lejon).
.P Tre Kronor had one major modernisation in the early fifties, but a second, at
the end of that decade, was cancelled as being un-economic.
.P HMS Tre Kronor was scrapped in 1964.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/5/2009 6:41:02 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1093
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/5/2009 7:53:28 AM   
paulderynck


Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
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In Swedish Royal Swedish Navy vessels are given the prefix "HMS," short for Hans/Hennes Majestäts Skepp (His/Her Majesty's Ship). In English, the prefix "HSwMS" (for "His Swedish Majesty's Ship") is used; HMS is used for Royal Navy vessels.



< Message edited by paulderynck -- 7/5/2009 7:55:32 AM >


_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1094
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/5/2009 8:50:58 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

In Swedish Royal Swedish Navy vessels are given the prefix "HMS," short for Hans/Hennes Majestäts Skepp (His/Her Majesty's Ship). In English, the prefix "HSwMS" (for "His Swedish Majesty's Ship") is used; HMS is used for Royal Navy vessels.


Warspite1

Indeed, but what a mouthful - I`m sure our Swedish friends will be okay with this, after all if this was a Swedish game and I was asked to write Her United Kingdom Majesty`s Ship for RN vessels, then I would be very upset Happy to go with Lars view on this if he has one.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/5/2009 8:52:35 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 1095
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/5/2009 9:30:00 AM   
paulderynck


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Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

In Swedish Royal Swedish Navy vessels are given the prefix "HMS," short for Hans/Hennes Majestäts Skepp (His/Her Majesty's Ship). In English, the prefix "HSwMS" (for "His Swedish Majesty's Ship") is used; HMS is used for Royal Navy vessels.


Warspite1

Indeed, but what a mouthful - I`m sure our Swedish friends will be okay with this, after all if this was a Swedish game and I was asked to write Her United Kingdom Majesty`s Ship for RN vessels, then I would be very upset Happy to go with Lars view on this if he has one.


Oh I agree. I did a double take when I saw "HMS Tre Kronor" but then went to Wikipedia and copied what it said there. It might be an interesting observation to add to the write-up as the HMS designation will take a lot of naval buffs by surprise, methinks.

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1096
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/5/2009 9:53:59 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

In Swedish Royal Swedish Navy vessels are given the prefix "HMS," short for Hans/Hennes Majestäts Skepp (His/Her Majesty's Ship). In English, the prefix "HSwMS" (for "His Swedish Majesty's Ship") is used; HMS is used for Royal Navy vessels.





Adding something that mentions how CW renamed the Swedish HMS to HSwMS would be nice in the writeup. I know that Swedish ships had "HMS" and that Great Britain used "HMS" as well. But I had no idea about the "HSwMS" thing.

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(in reply to paulderynck)
Post #: 1097
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/5/2009 11:00:44 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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I found a spelling error in the Copenhagen MIL.

Is it OK to report here ?

You should replace :
"IOn the 9th of April, 1940 the Germans attacked without warning."

With :
"On the 9th of April, 1940 the Germans attacked without warning."

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1098
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/5/2009 11:02:28 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I have begun looking at the US carriers and have started with the famous Essex carriers.

Essexes Rock !

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1099
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/5/2009 11:36:44 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

In Swedish Royal Swedish Navy vessels are given the prefix "HMS," short for Hans/Hennes Majestäts Skepp (His/Her Majesty's Ship). In English, the prefix "HSwMS" (for "His Swedish Majesty's Ship") is used; HMS is used for Royal Navy vessels.





Adding something that mentions how CW renamed the Swedish HMS to HSwMS would be nice in the writeup. I know that Swedish ships had "HMS" and that Great Britain used "HMS" as well. But I had no idea about the "HSwMS" thing.

Warspite 1

My draft seems a tad wordy, but as there is no WWII record to write about, space is not an issue for Swedish ships so this is what I propose:

[4965 Tre Kronor - by Robert Jenkins]
.B Engine(s) output: 90,000 hp.
.B Top Speed: 33 knots.
.B Main armament: 7 x 6-inch (152mm) guns, 27 x 40mm Bofors
.B Displacement (full load): 9,200 tons.
.B Thickest armour: 2.8-inch (belt)
.P The Tre Kronor`s were a two-ship class of cruisers built for the Royal
Swedish Navy between 1943 and 1947. Their original design was carried out by an
Italian company in 1940, but these plans were heavily revised before the orders
were belatedly placed with Swedish shipyards in 1943.
.P They were given the names Tre Kronor (Three Crowns) and Gota Lejon (Lion of
the Goths).
.P These were powerful light cruisers that featured seven fully automatic 6-inch
guns as their main armament. These guns had an elevation of seventy degrees,
thus providing an excellent anti-aircraft (AA) capability all in the one gun.
The layout of the main weaponry was one triple and two twin turrets. The AA
defence was supported by no less than twenty-seven 40mm Bofors.
.P These cruisers matched their contemporaries in other areas too, including a
sensible armour protection layout, and a top speed of 33 knots. They were
capable of laying mines; one hundred and sixty were carried, and housed six
torpedo tubes.
.P Unfortunately, after the initial design delays, their actual construction was
further delayed due to industrial disputes. As a result, the ships were only
completed in October 1947 (Tre Kronor) and December 1947 (Gota Lejon).
.P Tre Kronor had one major modernisation in the early fifties, but a second, at
the end of that decade, was cancelled as being un-economic.
.P HMS Tre Kronor was scrapped in 1964.
.P Note, the Swedish Royal Navy use the prefix HMS for their warships; Hans /
Hennes Majestäts Skepp, in the same way that the British Royal Navy use the
prefix HMS; His / Her Majesty's Ship. To avoid confusion, normally in English,
the prefix HSwMS is used for Swedish warships; His / Her Swedish Majesty's
Ship.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/5/2009 11:37:18 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 1100
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/5/2009 7:42:58 PM   
paulderynck


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Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline
Looks great and is not a direct copy of Wikipedia which I was guilty of.

Thanks for all your efforts.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1101
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/5/2009 8:26:11 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I found a spelling error in the Copenhagen MIL.

Is it OK to report here ?

You should replace :
"IOn the 9th of April, 1940 the Germans attacked without warning."

With :
"On the 9th of April, 1940 the Germans attacked without warning."

Caquineur is editing the Land Unit writeups. You should PM him with suggested changes.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1102
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/6/2009 10:22:00 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Please see attached a unit unique to the US - the Naval Supply Unit. Below is my interpretation of what ADG based the two counters on but would be grateful for any comment on this - particularly where I have referred to the optional rule.

Many thanks as ever.

[4255 Naval Supply - by Robert Jenkins]
.P This unit does not represent an individual ship, but rather a group of
ships, the composition of which could change from time to time.
.P Naval warfare in the pacific and the island hopping strategy employed by the
US forces, contained a number of obstacles to be overcome if victory over the
Japanese was to be achieved. Between the USA in the east, Australia in the
south, the Dutch East Indies in the west and Japan in the north were numerous
islands, big and small spread over the huge expanse of the great Pacific Ocean.
These islands and island chains were mostly primitive in terms of infrastructure
and resources. This meant that pretty much everything that the US forces needed
to prosecute the Pacific war had to be brought from their main bases.
.P Once the enemy were evicted, and the next target could be contemplated, the
US Navy needed to ensure that the ships of the fleet were adequately re-supplied
with all manner of equipment, foodstuffs and ammunition. In addition, the ships
damaged in the previous operations may have needed basic repair work before
being able to recommence operations. An alternative had to be found to avoid the
need for the fleet to have to return to the nearest naval base; which of course
could be many hundreds of miles away; if not more.
.P The US Navy`s answer to these problems was to form service squadrons and
later, two mobile service squadrons, the later numbered four and ten. The twenty
-four ship Mobile Service Squadron Four was commissioned in October 1943. It was
sent to Funafuti in the Ellice Islands at the time of Operation Galvanic; the
invasion of the Gilbert Islands. The much larger Mobile Squadron Ten was set up
in February 1944 and was sent to Majuro in the Marshall Islands during the
assault and conquest of those islands.
.P The original idea was that the two mobile squadrons would leapfrog each other
as new territories were conquered, so that as one squadron looked after the
fleet at the newly conquered territory, the second squadron would prepare to
move to the next target. In practice they did not operate like that and in March
1944, Mobile Squadron Four was incorporated within Mobile Squadron Ten.
.P Under this huge squadron, subsidiary Service Squadrons were employed; Service
Squadron Six operated close to the operational area of the fleet and then
replenished ships as and when required at sea. From time to time, this squadron
would then return to the Mobile Squadron Ten to replenish their own supplies
before returning to the operational area to begin the process again. Meanwhile,
Service Squadron Eight brought supplies from the US west coast and Caribbean to
the forward bases.
.P The Naval Supply Units (NSU) in World in Flames represents the two mobile
service squadrons and are available in 1941 and 1943 respectively. What these
NSU`s allow the US player to do is to increase the capacity of a minor port by
either ten (1941) or fifteen (1943) ships, greatly increasing US fleet
flexibility.
.P Note the use of NSU`s is optional.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1103
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/6/2009 10:47:29 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Please see attached a unit unique to the US - the Naval Supply Unit. Below is my interpretation of what ADG based the two counters on but would be grateful for any comment on this - particularly where I have referred to the optional rule.

Many thanks as ever.

[4255 Naval Supply - by Robert Jenkins]
.P This unit does not represent an individual ship, but rather a group of
ships, the composition of which could change from time to time.
.P Naval warfare in the pacific and the island hopping strategy employed by the
US forces, contained a number of obstacles to be overcome if victory over the
Japanese was to be achieved. Between the USA in the east, Australia in the
south, the Dutch East Indies in the west and Japan in the north were numerous
islands, big and small spread over the huge expanse of the great Pacific Ocean.
These islands and island chains were mostly primitive in terms of infrastructure
and resources. This meant that pretty much everything that the US forces needed
to prosecute the Pacific war had to be brought from their main bases.
.P Once the enemy were evicted, and the next target could be contemplated, the
US Navy needed to ensure that the ships of the fleet were adequately re-supplied
with all manner of equipment, foodstuffs and ammunition. In addition, the ships
damaged in the previous operations may have needed basic repair work before
being able to recommence operations. An alternative had to be found to avoid the
need for the fleet to have to return to the nearest naval base; which of course
could be many hundreds of miles away; if not more.
.P The US Navy`s answer to these problems was to form service squadrons and
later, two mobile service squadrons, the later numbered four and ten. The twenty
-four ship Mobile Service Squadron Four was commissioned in October 1943. It was
sent to Funafuti in the Ellice Islands at the time of Operation Galvanic; the
invasion of the Gilbert Islands. The much larger Mobile Squadron Ten was set up
in February 1944 and was sent to Majuro in the Marshall Islands during the
assault and conquest of those islands.
.P The original idea was that the two mobile squadrons would leapfrog each other
as new territories were conquered, so that as one squadron looked after the
fleet at the newly conquered territory, the second squadron would prepare to
move to the next target. In practice they did not operate like that and in March
1944, Mobile Squadron Four was incorporated within Mobile Squadron Ten.
.P Under this huge squadron, subsidiary Service Squadrons were employed; Service
Squadron Six operated close to the operational area of the fleet and then
replenished ships as and when required at sea. From time to time, this squadron
would then return to the Mobile Squadron Ten to replenish their own supplies
before returning to the operational area to begin the process again. Meanwhile,
Service Squadron Eight brought supplies from the US west coast and Caribbean to
the forward bases.
.P The Naval Supply Units (NSU) in World in Flames represents the two mobile
service squadrons and are available in 1941 and 1943 respectively. What these
NSU`s allow the US player to do is to increase the capacity of a minor port by
either ten (1941) or fifteen (1943) ships, greatly increasing US fleet
flexibility.
.P Note the use of NSU`s is optional.

It looks good. I am not learned enough in the ADG design that lead to the NSU, nor into those Mobile Squadron that you describe, but this is very credible to me.

Originaly, I had thought that the NSU also represented the mullbery ports that the US put up in Normandy, but maybe the Mullberry ports are better WiFZenned as simply the effects of HQs on the coast.

Your writeup looks good to me.

Thanks for all those researches you do the for game, they mean more enjoyment for the players.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Froonp -- 7/6/2009 10:49:05 PM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1104
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/7/2009 5:55:32 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Please see attached a unit unique to the US - the Naval Supply Unit. Below is my interpretation of what ADG based the two counters on but would be grateful for any comment on this - particularly where I have referred to the optional rule.

Many thanks as ever.

[4255 Naval Supply - by Robert Jenkins]
.P This unit does not represent an individual ship, but rather a group of
ships, the composition of which could change from time to time.
.P Naval warfare in the pacific and the island hopping strategy employed by the
US forces, contained a number of obstacles to be overcome if victory over the
Japanese was to be achieved. Between the USA in the east, Australia in the
south, the Dutch East Indies in the west and Japan in the north were numerous
islands, big and small spread over the huge expanse of the great Pacific Ocean.
These islands and island chains were mostly primitive in terms of infrastructure
and resources. This meant that pretty much everything that the US forces needed
to prosecute the Pacific war had to be brought from their main bases.
.P Once the enemy were evicted, and the next target could be contemplated, the
US Navy needed to ensure that the ships of the fleet were adequately re-supplied
with all manner of equipment, foodstuffs and ammunition. In addition, the ships
damaged in the previous operations may have needed basic repair work before
being able to recommence operations. An alternative had to be found to avoid the
need for the fleet to have to return to the nearest naval base; which of course
could be many hundreds of miles away; if not more.
.P The US Navy`s answer to these problems was to form service squadrons and
later, two mobile service squadrons, the later numbered four and ten. The twenty
-four ship Mobile Service Squadron Four was commissioned in October 1943. It was
sent to Funafuti in the Ellice Islands at the time of Operation Galvanic; the
invasion of the Gilbert Islands. The much larger Mobile Squadron Ten was set up
in February 1944 and was sent to Majuro in the Marshall Islands during the
assault and conquest of those islands.
.P The original idea was that the two mobile squadrons would leapfrog each other
as new territories were conquered, so that as one squadron looked after the
fleet at the newly conquered territory, the second squadron would prepare to
move to the next target. In practice they did not operate like that and in March
1944, Mobile Squadron Four was incorporated within Mobile Squadron Ten.
.P Under this huge squadron, subsidiary Service Squadrons were employed; Service
Squadron Six operated close to the operational area of the fleet and then
replenished ships as and when required at sea. From time to time, this squadron
would then return to the Mobile Squadron Ten to replenish their own supplies
before returning to the operational area to begin the process again. Meanwhile,
Service Squadron Eight brought supplies from the US west coast and Caribbean to
the forward bases.
.P The Naval Supply Units (NSU) in World in Flames represents the two mobile
service squadrons and are available in 1941 and 1943 respectively. What these
NSU`s allow the US player to do is to increase the capacity of a minor port by
either ten (1941) or fifteen (1943) ships, greatly increasing US fleet
flexibility.
.P Note the use of NSU`s is optional.

It looks good. I am not learned enough in the ADG design that lead to the NSU, nor into those Mobile Squadron that you describe, but this is very credible to me.

Originaly, I had thought that the NSU also represented the mullbery ports that the US put up in Normandy, but maybe the Mullberry ports are better WiFZenned as simply the effects of HQs on the coast.

Your writeup looks good to me.

Thanks for all those researches you do the for game, they mean more enjoyment for the players.




Warspite 1

Thanks Patrice - two things 1. Where did that cool counter come from? Going through my 2007 WiF/SiF/CoiF/CinF etc counter sheets, I could not find these counters for ages - until I realised the only way you could tell them apart was the little port symbol on the back of the counter. Is the design above a special MWIF version only? If so - I like it and ADG should amend theirs to this.


2. Good point re the Mulberries and to be honest I did not think of that, however, now you mention it, I would like to think that if thats what ADG intended, they would have given the British one of the Naval Supply Counters - at least our Mulberry didn`t fall apart in a storm! More importantly, I think the Mulberries are too limited in their use. E.g. these NSU counters can be used anywhere, but towing the great concrete Mulberry structures any further than the few miles from England to France would surely have been impractical/impossible?

I must admit that doing these write-ups is proving a real learning experience. I did not know about the Mobile Squadrons either before I started researching for those counters. I began just assuming the US used a massive and well organised Fleet Train.

When you look at the distances involved in the Pacific, the sheer scale of the US operation, the number of ships, the fact the everything had to be brought to the front line; the whole logistics effort is just staggering. The Japanese just never had a hope........


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/7/2009 6:07:55 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 1105
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/7/2009 7:28:33 AM   
hellfirejet


Posts: 1052
Joined: 12/16/2008
From: Scotland
Status: offline
Hi,
I noticed in this write up that Gneisenau & Scharnhorst have been classified as Pocket Battleships,this is wrong both were BATTLECRUISERS,will this be corrected before release of game.
Germany had 3 Pocket battleships Admiral Graf Spee,Admiral Scheer & Deutschland renamed Lutzow because Hitler did not want a ship named after Germany sunk.
Germanys 2 Battleships were Bismarck & Tirpitz.

_____________________________

Regards,
Graham.

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction! Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1106
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/7/2009 8:33:56 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
The design of the NSU counters is mine.

One problem with computers is that when you look at the back of a counter, you just see the cables hanging down from the back of your monitor.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1107
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/7/2009 12:43:08 PM   
Caquineur


Posts: 96
Joined: 4/21/2009
From: Aix en Provence, France, Europe
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I found a spelling error in the Copenhagen MIL.

Is it OK to report here ?

You should replace :
"IOn the 9th of April, 1940 the Germans attacked without warning."

With :
"On the 9th of April, 1940 the Germans attacked without warning."

Caquineur is editing the Land Unit writeups. You should PM him with suggested changes.

Thank you. This one I corrected (but I certainly missed others )

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 1108
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/7/2009 6:58:58 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet

Hi,
I noticed in this write up that Gneisenau & Scharnhorst have been classified as Pocket Battleships,this is wrong both were BATTLECRUISERS,will this be corrected before release of game.
Germany had 3 Pocket battleships Admiral Graf Spee,Admiral Scheer & Deutschland renamed Lutzow because Hitler did not want a ship named after Germany sunk.
Germanys 2 Battleships were Bismarck & Tirpitz.

Warspite1

Which write-up are you referring to?


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/7/2009 6:59:08 PM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to hellfirejet)
Post #: 1109
RE: Unit Descriptions: Air, Naval, Land - 7/7/2009 7:01:17 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hellfirejet
I noticed in this write up that Gneisenau & Scharnhorst have been classified as Pocket Battleships,this is wrong both were BATTLECRUISERS,will this be corrected before release of game.
Germany had 3 Pocket battleships Admiral Graf Spee,Admiral Scheer & Deutschland renamed Lutzow because Hitler did not want a ship named after Germany sunk.
Germanys 2 Battleships were Bismarck & Tirpitz.

This should be corrected. Gneisenau & Scharnhorst are definitely not Pocket Battleships.
In WiF FE sense, they are Battleships, but reality they are Battlecruisers as hellfirejet says.

(in reply to hellfirejet)
Post #: 1110
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