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RE: Enough already! - 7/17/2009 2:49:57 PM

Alexander Seil

Posts: 196
Joined: 4/22/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jackx

Alexander Seil: Not sure how I ticked you off, but I can assure you that I didn't intend to. I don't leave my ivory tower to go to online forums to pick a fight. ;)

As with what I go by (in general, as anthropoid brought it up also): just personal experience. That's mostly other students, on and off campus, and random people at the bus stop/on the bus etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alexander Seil

Also, playing games to fit in? What kind of a warped high school movie society do you live in? No one cares about what you play. Outside of a handful of wargaming forums.

I'm 16.I have a game club at my school.One day I brought my laptop, and started play John Tiller's Campaign Series.Everyone would come over, but once they would see I was playing a wargame, I would get remarks like ''Go play some real games'' or ''Thats boring, dont you want to play Call of Duty?''.People do seem to care what you play.

Yes, because people are only moronic and judgmental towards wargamers and MMORPG players. I totally don't sit in coffeeshops and pass judgment on tourists going by. Oh, wait, yes I do. Do the tourists care? Sadly not. Do like the tourists and stop playing the defenders in "Siege: The Ivory Tower." No one who actually has any consequence cares about what you play (and if they do, there's something very wrong with their heads - or they're Lieberman, which only reinforces my point). Someone who has any consequence = people over the age of 20.

As for most of PC game sales being in the under 18 category, or anything like that - PC gaming is an expensive habit due to practically mandatory hardware upgrades. If anything, it's easier for a high school student to play wargames on his mom's computer than it is to play Crysis.

quote:

ORIGINAL: L�tzow

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

It's a good example of nothing of the sort, IMHO. I'm a huge fan of Shock Force and have had far more fun from it than CM1... a huge part of that appeal being that it isn't CM1. I'll take evolution rather than stagnation any day, and real-time CM is, frankly, superior to WEGO one as a wargame, not a click-fest. If you want to play it in the same old 'intriguing' way, you still can. As to sales numbers, those for CM:SF were actually much better than expected. ToW2 I don't know about, but that was always a thinking man's RTS rather than a wargame, as was it's predecessor.

It's quite some time ago I looked into Shockforce, but as far as I remember you merely got 1 tank + 1 armored car ( with different layouts) model. In addition to introduction of real-time, the way to command units got changed, the fictional campaign had a generic feeling and asymmetric warfare wasn't implemented well, due to lack of civilians. I have no problems with modern conflicts or innovations but the one thing I dislike is, when a publisher disregards his fan-base in order to approach the mainstream. That's what Battlefront did with their recent titles, in contradiction to Matrix, HPS or Shrapnel, who still stick to their guns. Even Paradox took the other road again with HoI 3, in regard to the blooper of EU:Rome.

HoI3 was in some kind of development, at least as a design, for 2-3 years, and it was a given that it would receive a do-over with the new engine given that it's Paradox's best-selling series.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 91

RE: Enough already! - 7/17/2009 4:15:03 PM

Hertston

Posts: 3564
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From: Cornwall, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I suspect they were going back due to the "outcry" of the original CM'ers. They just did not like the new route. Change is always very difficult to take people through.

I don't think so; it was always the plan to go back to WW2 after Shock Force, and I think BF made that clear even before SF was released. The also made clear that they thought what they were doing was right and that those original CMers who didn't like it could go take a running jump. The numbers of those who wouldn't buy Shock Force anyway was not enough to worry about. I think they were pretty pissed at the reaction from some considering the considerable effort they had made to incorporate WEGO which it would have been very easy to drop completely.

Incidently, another reason I seem to recall them giving for doing a modern game first is that the core code incorporates just about anything needed for any time period before that. In other words it was a lot more efficient to do SF then a WW2 game than a WW2 game followed by SF.

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Post #: 92

RE: Enough already! - 7/20/2009 10:48:13 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
But come on, Crete and Malta? We want to see things that are actually exciting like Japan fighting the USSR in 1939 with some intense battles.Or maybe the Winter War.I haven't heard anyone ever want a game about Crete and Malta, that should've been a sign.Give us something different, but give us something different that we actually want to see.

YMMV, but at least i find the Crete and Greece campaigns much more interesting than the Japan vs USSR or Fins vs URSS campaigns.
There weren't any Fallschirmjagers in Nomohan! What a bore!

I agree Nomonhan would be a cool campaign to fight and it's never been done in PC games as far as I know. It is a nice big battle using clunky old tanks and rifles for a good old fashioned meatgrinder.

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Post #: 93

RE: Enough already! - 7/20/2009 2:07:12 PM

killroyishere

Posts: 639
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I suspect they were going back due to the "outcry" of the original CM'ers. They just did not like the new route. Change is always very difficult to take people through.

I don't think so; it was always the plan to go back to WW2 after Shock Force, and I think BF made that clear even before SF was released. The also made clear that they thought what they were doing was right and that those original CMers who didn't like it could go take a running jump. The numbers of those who wouldn't buy Shock Force anyway was not enough to worry about. I think they were pretty pissed at the reaction from some considering the considerable effort they had made to incorporate WEGO which it would have been very easy to drop completely.

Incidently, another reason I seem to recall them giving for doing a modern game first is that the core code incorporates just about anything needed for any time period before that. In other words it was a lot more efficient to do SF then a WW2 game than a WW2 game followed by SF.

Herston is right on on this subject matter of CM:SF and Battlefront. Steve came right out into the forums and told members to bugger off he didn't give a damn what they thought.

Whether it sold or didn't I'm glad now they started with that crappy CM:SF so they could see all the bugs and flaws of the game. It certainly didn't go over well with the grog fanbase. It took them months to fix all that was broken and the game dropped in price really fast as you could get it for a saw buck all over the place. At least now there shouldn't be as many issues with the game engine for the WW2 series as there was with CM:SF out of the gate.
Most that snubbed it snubbed it because it wasn't WW2 to begin with. It was a stupid hypothetical wargame as well. I got mine for $4 looked at it once and haven't looked back.
Imho worst game Battlefront ever made.

(in reply to Hertston)

Post #: 94

RE: Enough already! - 7/21/2009 9:28:16 PM

V22 Osprey

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Have you tried the latest patch?

CM:SF updated to the latest version is a whole new game compared to v1.0

Battlefront really redeemed themselves with CM:SF, enough so that people began to change their mind about the game and they came out with 2 expansions.

(in reply to killroyishere)

Post #: 95

RE: Enough already! - 7/22/2009 4:29:01 AM

Llyranor

Posts: 217
Joined: 4/29/2006
From: Montreal, Canada
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One's interest in a particular setting is what one makes of it. Lamenting about the lack of coverage in Japanese/Russian conflicts during WW2, and then dismissing Greece/Crete (another barely covered field in the wargaming industry) for 'just being' Greece/Crete sounds a bit counterproductive.

I can't say I have a special affinity to any specific setting, per say. I'll go after whatever gameplay system is good. My recent engine of choice has been Airborne Assault's.

I'm fairly new to the wargame genre, so I haven't been overly saturated with 'played-out' scenarios. But thanks to HTTR, I picked up a few books on Market-Garden, and they've been pretty exciting reads. It's now one of my favorite battles, particularly the Arnhem area. Despite knowing the outcome, I couldn't help but root for the paratroopers throughout the pages.

I had absolutely no clue what Greece's involvement was during WW2, and it's the last setting I'd think I'd have any interest in, but COTA got me to also pick up a few books on it. The delaying action and withdrawal of the British/Anzac troops all the way to the beaches of mainland Greece, the desperate defense of Crete against overwhelming odds. I'm just reading through one of books right now, and it's a pretty stirring tale.

My knowledge of the Bulge mainly stemmed from what the mainstream media will feed us, but I've also been reading through a book about it currently, and there's tons of fascinating stuff to be found. I've been rooting for the Ami underdogs as they're being surrounded by the enemy, before reinforcements arrive. I could see why people would enjoy this setting. I know I'll enjoy playing BFTB when that comes out.

Basically, I keep an open mind. A new wargame and a new setting, for me, is just a brand new opportunity to learn something know. All I need is a little nudge and good gameplay to support it. And thanks to Panther Games for introducing me to all these rich settings!

(in reply to V22 Osprey)

Post #: 96

RE: Enough already! - 7/22/2009 8:35:07 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

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I'm not a huge fan of either Arnhem or the Bulge although I've seen documentaries and read books on both. For an axis fan, they are not so wonderful cause of the terrible waste in the Bulge and the small scale of Arnhem. If you look at the casualties in the Arnhem campaign, though significant for the allies because of the high value paratroopers involved and the expenditure of resources, on the Russian front such losses could be shrugged off as usual for a week or less of normal combat action. But the Bulge was such a waste of fine armor left abandoned for lack of fuel and the inexperienced new recruits getting themselves killed by the unexpected defense in depth the Americans put up.

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Post #: 97

RE: Enough already! - 7/22/2009 9:13:45 AM

Arsan

Posts: 409
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

I'm not a huge fan of either Arnhem or the Bulge although I've seen documentaries and read books on both.� For an axis fan, they are not so wonderful cause of the terrible waste in the Bulge and the small scale of Arnhem.�

Hi!

There is an excellent book about Market Garden strictly from the german perspective that may interest you

"It never snows in september" by Robert Kershaw
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Snows-September-German-Market-Garden/dp/0711030626/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248251118&sr=8-7

It's a great and detailed account of how the remains of the German army, completely defeated after Normandy managed to organize a defence that stopped the allied elite parachute and armoured divisions.
An excellent read and ideal companion book to fully enjoy Panther games "Highway to the Reich" game

Cheers

< Message edited by Arsan -- 7/22/2009 9:25:12 AM >

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Post #: 98

RE: Enough already! - 7/22/2009 10:10:46 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

Posts: 358
Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan

quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

I'm not a huge fan of either Arnhem or the Bulge although I've seen documentaries and read books on both.� For an axis fan, they are not so wonderful cause of the terrible waste in the Bulge and the small scale of Arnhem.�

Hi!

There is an excellent book about Market Garden strictly from the german perspective that may interest you

"It never snows in september" by Robert Kershaw
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Snows-September-German-Market-Garden/dp/0711030626/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248251118&sr=8-7

It's a great and detailed account of how the remains of the German army, completely defeated after Normandy managed to organize a defence that stopped the allied elite parachute and armoured divisions.
An excellent read and ideal companion book to fully enjoy Panther games "Highway to the Reich" game

Cheers

I've heard that snow book mentioned a lot so it must be a good one. The author was speaking in a documentary I saw on Arnhem; I think it was Battlefield Detectives.

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Post #: 99

RE: Enough already! - 7/22/2009 7:59:02 PM

Llyranor

Posts: 217
Joined: 4/29/2006
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline

Yeah, It Never Snows in September is a pretty good book. The paperback version I have could use some better maps, though.

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Post #: 100

RE: Enough already! - 7/22/2009 8:08:49 PM

Arsan

Posts: 409
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Llyranor

Yeah, It Never Snows in September is a pretty good book. The paperback version I have could use some better maps, though.

Yes, it seems therr are two paperback editions.
The on i have (and posted the link above) its just like the hardback, with lots of photos, colour maps and glossy hihg quality paper.
But the new paperback edition (somewhat cheaper and with black&withe cover) seems to have no photos and only black&wite maps. A shame

(in reply to Llyranor)

Post #: 101

RE: Enough already! - 7/22/2009 10:20:32 PM

Llyranor

Posts: 217
Joined: 4/29/2006
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline

Heh, I'd actually be tempted to rebuy the book, then.

So, this one has all the pictures and color maps?

I'm just checking, since one of the comments criticizes the lack of those (but could be referring to the other paperback).

This is the one I own, which has none of those

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Post #: 102

RE: Enough already! - 7/23/2009 7:43:09 AM

Arsan

Posts: 409
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
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Yes, indeed.
I have the one in the top on paperback and seem to be an exact copy of the hardback edition... but without hardback.

Page paper is glossy and thick, and it has lots of photos and colour maps. And its was not so expensive for what i recall. And excellent edition!

The one in the bottom is a newer edition (i just noticed it existed yesterday while checking for a link to post).
Regarding the reviews, amazon use to mix different editions comments all together but the b/w maps and no photos is referring to the new one.

Cheers!

< Message edited by Arsan -- 7/23/2009 7:46:33 AM >

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Post #: 103

RE: Enough already! - 7/23/2009 12:17:16 PM

Llyranor

Posts: 217
Joined: 4/29/2006
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline

Many thanks! I really enjoyed the book content, but was disappointed since all the photos from the text descriptions weren't included, and I had to check out other references when locations were mentioned given the relative lack of maps.

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Post #: 104

RE: Enough already! - 7/23/2009 5:03:49 PM

Wirraway_Ace

Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

If you look at the casualties in the Arnhem campaign, though significant for the allies because of the high value paratroopers involved and the expenditure of resources, on the Russian front such losses could be shrugged off as usual for a week or less of normal combat action...�

The losses to the British 1st Abn Div weren't really the issue for the Allies in operation Market Garden; although by this time, any British troop losses were problematic. The real issue was psychological. Many of the soldiers and leaders thought the Germany Army was broken, incapable of further effective resistance, and victory was weeks or a few months away. Both Market Garden and the Bulge were important because they signalled there was still a lot of fighting to be done and interesting because effective German combat operations seemed so improbable.

A comparision of the number of mechanized and motorized vehicles just in 30 Corps to the total available to the German Army in the west is enlightening.

(in reply to SS Hauptsturmfuhrer)

Post #: 105

RE: Enough already! - 7/23/2009 5:49:36 PM

V22 Osprey

Posts: 1593
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From: Corona, CA
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You guys do know there is a recent military history book thread right?

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Post #: 106

RE: Enough already! - 7/23/2009 6:01:20 PM

Canoerebel

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Had I been an Allied soldier somewhere in France after the Allies broke out of Normandy and Patton went racing through countryside, and had I watched as thousands of smiling, relieved German prisoners walked by, I too would have thought the war was about over.

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Post #: 107

RE: Enough already! - 7/23/2009 9:11:26 PM

anarchyintheuk

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan

quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

I'm not a huge fan of either Arnhem or the Bulge although I've seen documentaries and read books on both.� For an axis fan, they are not so wonderful cause of the terrible waste in the Bulge and the small scale of Arnhem.�

Hi!

There is an excellent book about Market Garden strictly from the german perspective that may interest you

"It never snows in september" by Robert Kershaw
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Snows-September-German-Market-Garden/dp/0711030626/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248251118&sr=8-7

It's a great and detailed account of how the remains of the German army, completely defeated after Normandy managed to organize a defence that stopped the allied elite parachute and armoured divisions.
An excellent read and ideal companion book to fully enjoy Panther games "Highway to the Reich" game

Cheers

I've heard that snow book mentioned a lot so it must be a good one. The author was speaking in a documentary I saw on Arnhem; I think it was Battlefield Detectives.

Battlefield Detectives is one of the better series I've seen. At least they limit themselves to plausable or hypothetical reasons why something occurred and stay away from the History Channel's usual suspects: extraterrestrials and paranormal activity.

(in reply to SS Hauptsturmfuhrer)

Post #: 108

RE: Enough already! - 7/24/2009 12:50:39 AM

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

Posts: 358
Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan

quote:

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

I'm not a huge fan of either Arnhem or the Bulge although I've seen documentaries and read books on both.� For an axis fan, they are not so wonderful cause of the terrible waste in the Bulge and the small scale of Arnhem.�

Hi!

There is an excellent book about Market Garden strictly from the german perspective that may interest you

"It never snows in september" by Robert Kershaw
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Snows-September-German-Market-Garden/dp/0711030626/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1248251118&sr=8-7

It's a great and detailed account of how the remains of the German army, completely defeated after Normandy managed to organize a defence that stopped the allied elite parachute and armoured divisions.
An excellent read and ideal companion book to fully enjoy Panther games "Highway to the Reich" game

Cheers

I've heard that snow book mentioned a lot so it must be a good one. The author was speaking in a documentary I saw on Arnhem; I think it was Battlefield Detectives.

Battlefield Detectives is one of the better series I've seen. At least they limit themselves to plausable or hypothetical reasons why something occurred and stay away from the History Channel's usual suspects: extraterrestrials and paranormal activity.

Ya it is very interesting documentary. My favorite one is the about the Apache. It was cool how a few dozen Apache warriors could use Sun Tsu tactics and the terrain to outwit american armies sent to eradicate them.

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Post #: 109

RE: Enough already! - 7/24/2009 3:21:52 PM

Chijohnaok2

Posts: 628
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From: Florida, USA (formerly Chicago)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok

quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

How about a ''something other than WWII'' Campaign game?

Yeah!!!! Can we maybe get comprehensive game covering the Anglo-Zanzibar War .

Maybe 3-4 scenarios, in addition to a full blown campaign.

I guess no one caught the irony of asking for a 3-4 scenario/full blown campaign game of a war that only lasted 38 minutes long.........

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Post #: 110

RE: Enough already! - 7/29/2009 1:37:49 AM

Llyranor

Posts: 217
Joined: 4/29/2006
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arsan

Yes, indeed.
I have the one in the top on paperback and seem to be an exact copy of the hardback edition... but without hardback.
Page paper is glossy and thick, and it has lots of photos and colour maps. And its was not so expensive for what i recall. And excellent edition!
The one in the bottom is a newer edition (i just noticed it existed yesterday while checking for a link to post).
Regarding the reviews, amazon use to mix different editions comments all together but the b/w maps and no photos is referring to the new one.

Cheers!

Just bumping this to give Arsan a big thanks! The new book just came in the mail, and the extra maps/photos are really great! Really appreciate it!

(in reply to Arsan)

Post #: 111

RE: Enough already! - 7/29/2009 8:21:57 AM

Arsan

Posts: 409
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

Glad you liked it!

(after buying the same book twice if you didn't i woudl feel sooo guilty!

)
Cheers!

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Post #: 112

RE: Enough already! - 7/29/2009 4:25:30 PM

SlickWilhelm

Posts: 1854
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From: Rochester, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok

I guess no one caught the irony of asking for a 3-4 scenario/full blown campaign game of a war that only lasted 38 minutes long.........

I caught it. I chuckled, but didn't think it was worth replying. But I learned about a war that I previously known nothing about.

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Post #: 113

RE: Enough already! - 7/29/2009 5:39:46 PM

jackx

Posts: 353
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From: Germany
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I had to look it up, then grinned - but didn't think it warranted an extra reply. I arrived at that conclusion because no-one else commented on it, and I couldn't shake the feeling that I was the only one who had to look it up, thus possibly embarrasing myself... ;)

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Post #: 114

RE: Enough already! - 8/7/2009 10:19:22 AM

laika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jackx

MMORPG addicts aren't exactly casual gamers, and probably have about the same level of overall social acceptance as hardcore wargamers, with the added disadvantage that you can probably be the latter a lot easier while maintaining some semblance of a "normal" social life.

Yes, wargamers and wargame developers have a habit to be grognards and act like an arrogant elite. Maybe that cost them the chance to become more accepted by the mainstream, but if that chance was there, it was there in the late '90s/early 2000s, and by now has passed the genre by. While gaming wasn't yet fully acceptable into the "mainstream", establishing a foothold with nich� products could've worked. Now, when you pretty much have to play games (or be aware of them) to "fit in", nich� products are pushed to the side more and more.

Maybe, with demographic change (and the current 15-29 "casual gamers" growing up mentally at some point), there'll be another chance. Wargames also have about 0 marketability for e-sports, which denies them another way in which they could gain more mainstream exposure and acceptance.

Yes MMorpg gamers aren�t casual gamers. Like myself i played alot EVE online a couple of years ago and had to stop with that one because i had problems with my wife and kids because i spend so much time in it. I also used EVE as a chat programm. And don,t think it was a easy game when you want to run such a game with a great income and econemy. Alot game types are for a niche market like the wargames, train and flight sims etc. The point with gaming is the time you have in RL to spend for games. I also played alot of CMOBB years ago but now i just dont have the time to play that kind of games in the way i want them to play. So now i choose more simple games like the CC (COI, i realy love it)series and the Panzer Command series because they give me just the perfect difficulty for the time i can spend for gaming to keep also my family happy.
Btw more eastern wargames would be great. I really would like to see a game that also includes the battle in the Crimea like the battle of Sevastopol

(in reply to jackx)

Post #: 115