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US Submarine torpedoes - 7/21/2009 8:00:06 PM   
jerrylt2008


Posts: 56
Joined: 5/13/2008
Status: offline 		I understand that US submarine torpedoes are in effect useless until early 1943. I guess you might get a lucky detonation occassionally but ussually it will miss or not explode. Since this is the case, should I send them out of port at all? I guess they would be good intelligence gatherers or the occasional supply run or troop deployment (limited). I am not trying to open up this can of worms again.

I am asking if I should just leave them in port or send them out to spot ships and maybe act like coast watchers?

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RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/21/2009 8:02:45 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		You should definitely use your submarines as much as possible. Your dud rate is only 80% to start with, and sometimes your dice rolls actually come up to your advantage. Leaving your subs in port is criminal neglect.

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RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/21/2009 8:14:22 PM   
Charbroiled


Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
Status: offline 		Even with the dud rate, I have still been able to sink a few ships here and there. Send them out...you never know what you might sink.

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RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/21/2009 8:22:45 PM   
jerrylt2008


Posts: 56
Joined: 5/13/2008
Status: offline 		Thank you everyone. I was assuming that they would be the front line in defense.

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RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/21/2009 8:25:28 PM   
NormS3


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Wild and Wonderful WV, just don't drink the water
Status: offline 		Any chance of subs getting hit by their own errant torps?

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Post #: 5
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/21/2009 8:26:58 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		no

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RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/21/2009 9:37:25 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norm3

Any chance of subs getting hit by their own errant torps?


With straight runners? Highly unlikely...in fact improbable. With wake following or active homing, it would be possible if all the safeties are removed and you somehow end up in the path of your own torpedo, improbable.

In game, I seriously doubt it.

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RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/21/2009 9:47:10 PM   
greg_slith


Posts: 490
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline 		Improbable maybe but it did happen. Dick O'Kane was nearly killed by his own fish and many other boats that "disappeared" are thought to have been hit by their own straight runners (who didn't run straight).

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RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/21/2009 9:52:04 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

Improbable maybe but it did happen. Dick O'Kane was nearly killed by his own fish and many other boats that "disappeared" are thought to have been hit by their own straight runners (who didn't run straight).


That indicates malfunction then. I would still assume that even so the ratio was very low....so still not impossible, but improbable.

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Post #: 9
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/21/2009 9:57:45 PM   
greg_slith


Posts: 490
Joined: 9/14/2004
Status: offline 		The 80% dud rate also reflects the "malfunction" of the a) depth keeping, b) magnetic exploder and c) contact fuse. All worked in some form or another but still caused 80% duds.

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Post #: 10
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/21/2009 10:44:05 PM   
Charbroiled


Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

Improbable maybe but it did happen. Dick O'Kane was nearly killed by his own fish and many other boats that "disappeared" are thought to have been hit by their own straight runners (who didn't run straight).


That indicates malfunction then. I would still assume that even so the ratio was very low....so still not impossible, but improbable.


The Tang (Dick O'Kane's boat) and the Tullibee were both sunk from a circular torpedo run. The Taotog and the Whale both had torpedo malfunctions causing a circular run, but both boats were able to "go deep" to escape.

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Post #: 11
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 12:24:07 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jerrylt2008

I understand that US submarine torpedoes are in effect useless until early 1943. I guess you might get a lucky detonation occassionally but ussually it will miss or not explode. Since this is the case, should I send them out of port at all? I guess they would be good intelligence gatherers or the occasional supply run or troop deployment (limited). I am not trying to open up this can of worms again.

I am asking if I should just leave them in port or send them out to spot ships and maybe act like coast watchers?



Your old "S-Boats" did not use the Mk XIV torpedo, so their hit rates should be much better. I always try to upgrade their skippers to the best available and use them to create a "danger zone" or two for the Japs. And even if the more modern subs aren't very effective they still provide intel, re-supply, and the occasional success to annoy the enemy.

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Post #: 12
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 2:16:03 AM   
Hagleboz


Posts: 65
Joined: 1/27/2009
From: Murrieta, CA
Status: offline
[/quote]


Your old "S-Boats" did not use the Mk XIV torpedo, so their hit rates should be much better.  I always try to upgrade their skippers to the best available and use them to create a "danger zone" or two for the Japs.  And even if the more modern subs aren't very effective they still provide intel, re-supply, and the occasional success to annoy the enemy.
[/quote]

Does WitP (and AE) actually model different torpedo for the Americans?

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Post #: 13
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 2:18:22 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
quote:

Does WitP (and AE) actually model different torpedo for the Americans?


Yes.

-F-

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RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 2:30:22 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

Improbable maybe but it did happen. Dick O'Kane was nearly killed by his own fish and many other boats that "disappeared" are thought to have been hit by their own straight runners (who didn't run straight).


That indicates malfunction then. I would still assume that even so the ratio was very low....so still not impossible, but improbable.


The Tang (Dick O'Kane's boat) and the Tullibee were both sunk from a circular torpedo run. The Taotog and the Whale both had torpedo malfunctions causing a circular run, but both boats were able to "go deep" to escape.

One other USN sub is thought (but not known) to have been sunk by its own torp (3 total)...

Circular run could be caused by several factors including jammed torpedo rudder, defective gyro, etc. but there was also a design flaw that allowed a gyro control unit to be inserted backwards that would cause a circular run.

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Post #: 15
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 10:28:04 AM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		Aggressive skippers in even the fleet boats will occasionally surface and use their deck gun against shipping, as well as fire their torpedoes.  I've sunk dozens of ships in 1942 with US subs, and damaged a CVL, by having them base out of Darwin or Eniwetok and patrolling them around Truk, Saipan and Tarakan.  The S class do not have the high dud torpedo rate so they will get a lot more hits in 1942 also.

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Post #: 16
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 12:59:34 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Never forget those subs can also lay mines, which can bag some unsuspecting ships and tie up others to clear the minefields.

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RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 2:32:59 PM   
BAR


Posts: 49
Joined: 5/15/2000
Status: offline 		I've been noticing quite an increase in deck gun activity starting about May '42 from my subs. Even occur during the daytime which seems suicidal. I have 4 based off Scerabaja, 3 just south of Rabaul and the rest doing their own thing and have 3-4 Sub attack combat reports a turn so they are definately worth putting to sea.

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Post #: 18
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 3:50:53 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		Playing against the AI in my last game I had what I felt pretty good success using the USN submarines in early '42. I sortied everyone of them out of Manila and used the S-boats north of the Phillipines and the fleet boats in the South China Sea to help suppliment Royal and Dutch Navy boats. I haven't played a PBEM As of yet because I'm waiting for AE but believe the fleet boats in early '42 will assist at the very least in giving you intel on the enemies shipping lanes. 

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Post #: 19
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 3:51:10 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

Improbable maybe but it did happen. Dick O'Kane was nearly killed by his own fish and many other boats that "disappeared" are thought to have been hit by their own straight runners (who didn't run straight).


That indicates malfunction then. I would still assume that even so the ratio was very low....so still not impossible, but improbable.


The Tang (Dick O'Kane's boat) and the Tullibee were both sunk from a circular torpedo run. The Taotog and the Whale both had torpedo malfunctions causing a circular run, but both boats were able to "go deep" to escape.


Yes, I'm not saying it couldn't happen. I say improbable because of the fact that you cite 4 instances of circular runs out of how many thousands of torpedoes fired?

I say improbable because there is such a low chance of it happening. It can happen, and it if happens to you it is 100% bad, but in the overall picture you can reliably fire a straight running torpedo 99%+ of the time and it will run straight...or at least not in a complete circle.

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Post #: 20
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 4:01:33 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

Improbable maybe but it did happen. Dick O'Kane was nearly killed by his own fish and many other boats that "disappeared" are thought to have been hit by their own straight runners (who didn't run straight).


That indicates malfunction then. I would still assume that even so the ratio was very low....so still not impossible, but improbable.


The Tang (Dick O'Kane's boat) and the Tullibee were both sunk from a circular torpedo run. The Taotog and the Whale both had torpedo malfunctions causing a circular run, but both boats were able to "go deep" to escape.


Yes, I'm not saying it couldn't happen. I say improbable because of the fact that you cite 4 instances of circular runs out of how many thousands of torpedoes fired?

I say improbable because there is such a low chance of it happening. It can happen, and it if happens to you it is 100% bad, but in the overall picture you can reliably fire a straight running torpedo 99%+ of the time and it will run straight...or at least not in a complete circle.

Actually, from what i've read, it was a lot more common than that... but the 4 quoted are the most famous incidents... it happened on the order of maybe 1% of firings, i am guessing from what i've read.

EDIT: Usually, since the sub was moving, it wasn't around for the return trip of the torpedo, and just made for a lot of nervous/alarmed submariners.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 7/22/2009 4:03:07 PM >

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RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 4:15:55 PM   
PawnPower

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 7/13/2009
Status: offline 		Historically US subs probably destroyed more tonnage per sub, compared to the German U-Boats and the Japs. The Japanese did not use the subs to their full potential.

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Post #: 22
RE: US Submarine torpedoes - 7/22/2009 4:35:41 PM   
Charbroiled


Posts: 1181
Joined: 10/15/2004
From: Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charbroiled


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: ecwgcx

Improbable maybe but it did happen. Dick O'Kane was nearly killed by his own fish and many other boats that "disappeared" are thought to have been hit by their own straight runners (who didn't run straight).


That indicates malfunction then. I would still assume that even so the ratio was very low....so still not impossible, but improbable.


The Tang (Dick O'Kane's boat) and the Tullibee were both sunk from a circular torpedo run. The Taotog and the Whale both had torpedo malfunctions causing a circular run, but both boats were able to "go deep" to escape.


Yes, I'm not saying it couldn't happen. I say improbable because of the fact that you cite 4 instances of circular runs out of how many thousands of torpedoes fired?

I say improbable because there is such a low chance of it happening. It can happen, and it if happens to you it is 100% bad, but in the overall picture you can reliably fire a straight running torpedo 99%+ of the time and it will run straight...or at least not in a complete circle.


Agreed...it was not a common occurance. However, it happen enough that the Sub Captains were aware of the possibilities of it happening and were concerned about it. As mentioned before, it was suspected that more subs were lost because of circular runs then those mentioned, but there wasn't any proof.

In the case of the Tang, they were running on the surface, in the middle of a night action. They were in shallow water (180 feet I believe) and the torpedo was the last torpedo they had. They had previously damaged a tanker and were finishing it off using their last 2 torpedos so that they could go home. If they hadn't been in shallow water....in sight of shore, it is doubtful that the crew that escaped the Tang would have been picked up by the Japanese. In which case, it would have never been know what sunk the Tang.

In the case of the Tullibee, there was 1 survivor that was thrown from the bridge by the explosion. He was picked up by the Japanese and was able confirm how the Tullibee sunk.

< Message edited by Charbroiled -- 7/22/2009 4:40:21 PM >

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