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RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 7:22:30 AM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

oh boy, is that really this diffcult ?

I think the pbem fanboys dont understand the original intension of the thread starter at all.

To make it more clearly to you think this way :

You own a car brand A. You have problems with it and it needs repair. The poster asks for help.  Instead of helping some ppl start to talk about a car brand B imho but obviously this wont help at all....




What I think is attempted to say is that: The AI is of dubious value in most games, and this is probably no vexation.

On the same time, I think what that is trying to say is: It can probably never be fixed, so you should probably get that other brand instead.. (play a human instead..) who works very good..

< Message edited by P.Hausser -- 10/9/2009 7:23:05 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Oliver Heindorf)
Post #: 61
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 7:26:04 AM   
The Gnome


Posts: 1233
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		About all these "just play a human" posts has encouraged me to do is NOT to play a human. We get it already, you love PBEM. Great. I'm glad you love it. Some of us don't. We'd like to discuss issues with the AI occasionally and try to find better ways for it to work.

AE has been a HUGE improvement to playing the AI so apparently, contrary to your post, it can be fixed.

(in reply to P.Hausser)
Post #: 62
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 7:49:41 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

oh boy, is that really this diffcult ?

I think the pbem fanboys dont understand the original intension of the thread starter at all.

To make it more clearly to you think this way :

You own a car brand A. You have problems with it and it needs repair. The poster asks for help. Instead of helping some ppl start to talk about a car brand B imho but obviously this wont help at all....



Ive played 99,9% of my wargame and strategic game time against the IA, from Task Force 1942 to WitP, from Steel Panthers I to Combat Mission III. And still I greatly enjoy the few times I could actually play against someone made out of flesh and bones. I don't need someone to come to lecture me about my PBEM "fanboyism": there is narrow-thinking on both sides of the fence here, and you're not gonna get heard better starting to label "us" with names.

_____________________________


(in reply to Oliver Heindorf)
Post #: 63
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 8:39:12 AM   
JamesM

 

Posts: 1017
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: QLD, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

I just don't enjoy 2 player in any game.  I have tried it and it's just not my cup of tea.  I don't think 2 player is bad.  I think it should be in AE for the folks who enjoy it.  I'm just not one of those folks.  I some times play games en masse for a while but then do some thing else for a while.  I like AE and might play it for a 2-3 week binge of solid playing but then might not pick it up for several weeks.  A testamony from me to WITP and AE is I have never removed them from my PC sense launch, the only program I can say that about.  I would like to see the AI improved and I know this has GOT to be a topic of discussion at patch meetings.  As I stated earlier AE is a VERY complex program and requires VERY complex AI.  Matrix has been very supportive of the community and I don't expect this to change.  All I do is voice my issues on the boards to try and improve an outstanding product.  But if at the end of the day I'm told something can't be done I will trust it's true (for what ever reason) and accept it.  We all can enjoy games vs. the AI and PBEM, after all it takes all types for the very diverse community we have here.  I know everyone wants as good a game as I want.  Matrix has delivered but it can use some tweaking with out detracting from what an excellent game it is.

I have 2 sons with 3 computers all networked and I really don't enjoy any kind of multi player with them (and yes I have tried several games).  They enjoy the heck out of it and I don't discourage them but I just don't enjoy it.


Very nicely stated, mullk.



I must back that up particularly the amount of playing time. Because this game is complex I need a periodic rest from it and as such I can go up to 2 or so weeks away from this game, which rules out the PBEM option for me. Also when I play it I want play at times convenient for me.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 64
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 8:45:07 AM   
IronWarrior


Posts: 801
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: Beaverton, OR
Status: offline 		Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that there is not an AI made that can challenge a human without cheating in a complex game like AE. I think the day that happens we'll revisit the computers-taking-over-the-world paranoia from the 70's and 80's. We'll break out the Rush:2112 albums and Tron.

_____________________________


(in reply to JamesM)
Post #: 65
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 10:05:32 AM   
Marty A

 

Posts: 213
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

About all these "just play a human" posts has encouraged me to do is NOT to play a human. We get it already, you love PBEM. Great. I'm glad you love it. Some of us don't. We'd like to discuss issues with the AI occasionally and try to find better ways for it to work.

AE has been a HUGE improvement to playing the AI so apparently, contrary to your post, it can be fixed.


You not say why you do not like e mail game. witp ai can change too if someone took time to do. they do do not take time. fault matrix on this. this game may be easier to change ai but old game not impossible. you say ai in ae huge improve over witp. others say not. again you not say why you think it is better.

(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 66
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 12:30:49 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jamesm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: mullk

I just don't enjoy 2 player in any game.  I have tried it and it's just not my cup of tea.  I don't think 2 player is bad.  I think it should be in AE for the folks who enjoy it.  I'm just not one of those folks.  I some times play games en masse for a while but then do some thing else for a while.  I like AE and might play it for a 2-3 week binge of solid playing but then might not pick it up for several weeks.  A testamony from me to WITP and AE is I have never removed them from my PC sense launch, the only program I can say that about.  I would like to see the AI improved and I know this has GOT to be a topic of discussion at patch meetings.  As I stated earlier AE is a VERY complex program and requires VERY complex AI.  Matrix has been very supportive of the community and I don't expect this to change.  All I do is voice my issues on the boards to try and improve an outstanding product.  But if at the end of the day I'm told something can't be done I will trust it's true (for what ever reason) and accept it.  We all can enjoy games vs. the AI and PBEM, after all it takes all types for the very diverse community we have here.  I know everyone wants as good a game as I want.  Matrix has delivered but it can use some tweaking with out detracting from what an excellent game it is.

I have 2 sons with 3 computers all networked and I really don't enjoy any kind of multi player with them (and yes I have tried several games).  They enjoy the heck out of it and I don't discourage them but I just don't enjoy it.


Very nicely stated, mullk.



I must back that up particularly the amount of playing time. Because this game is complex I need a periodic rest from it and as such I can go up to 2 or so weeks away from this game, which rules out the PBEM option for me. Also when I play it I want play at times convenient for me.



I can understand the 2 weeks away argument....what I don't understand is the "...at times convenient for me." argument.

In PBeM you receive a turn from your opponent and you work on it when it is convenient for you.

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to JamesM)
Post #: 67
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 12:54:45 PM   
bklooste

 

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline 		What amazes me how its nearly always the Allied people playing the Japanese AI complaining. A 6 year old could beat the Japs even with the best (non cheating) AI . Thats Boring.... 3 cheers to trying to make an interesting AI for the AFB to play against.

Come on the Japanese had real people  so the AI cannot do better and they dis abysmal.

Lastly AIs for a very open and complex game like AE are incredibly expensive to write and Matrix is a small company  you need a  team of 5 for 2 years thats serious dollars. AE has a an average AI but considering the game is so open its prob below average compared to simpler games . There is no way around this sure there are scripts but there will always be some critical thing which it will do which is utterly self destructive.



(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 68
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 1:41:50 PM   
Mr.Custer

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline 		When I want to play, I want to play, I don't want to be waiting for some guy to get permission from his wife to do the next turn. Just curious, in a game this long head to head has anybody ever finished a game before somebody drops out ?

(in reply to bklooste)
Post #: 69
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 2:31:03 PM   
morganbj


Posts: 3634
Joined: 8/12/2007
From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
Status: offline 		Well, I only play against the AI.  My sachedule is such that I can only play in spurts.  I'll have a whole weekend where I can crank out three weeks or a month of game time, but then may not be able to get back to it for a couple of weeks.  A human player wouldn't tolerate waiting on my turns in the off-period, and I wouldn't tolerate waiting for someone else even a few hours during my "on" time.

If the game is designed to be PBEM only, then it should say so.  If it's PBEM "highly encouraged," then Matrix should just say that up front, as well, BUT tell us that the AI cheats and how it cheats to some extent.  Then, the consumer knows what his $100 is giving him.

As a one-time very serious military histirian, I play the game to explore strategical possibilites, so it's disconcerting to discover that the AI doesn't have to refuel, or it soesn't need air support, or it .....you get the idea.  Those things mean that the side I play is bound by historical conditions, but the other side is not.  So, it's strategic decisions are scripted, or worse, arbitrary.  I would hope that the cheats would be based on reducing the impact of certain historical restrictions, rather than eliminating them altogether.  It far preferable, for example that the AI gets an air repair bonus of some percent, or it uses fuel at some reduced rate, or it can load troops a little faster, or .... well, those are better than just having no fuel needed for a TF.  If the Japanese have no fuel or supply restrictions then they can do VERY ahistorical things.  That is a problem for me, given the reason I play in the first place.

All that said, I'm not very disappointed in the AI at all with AE.  A little too adventurous, I suppose, but MUCH better than WITP.  It seems to place the player in the position of not knowing what to expect, so all possibilites have to be considered (and with the AI cheats NOTHING is impossible, my only real complaint, I guess.)  But, I've found that even with all the cheats, by mid to late '42, a Japanese AI is pretty much screwed.  It's frittered away it's CVs, it's pilots are inexperienced, and it's ability to conduct offensive operations is essentially over.  That's pretty close to what happend, ALTHOUGH IT'S NOT HOW IT HAPPENED.  So, I get to plan the inevitable counter-attack pretty much like it was done historically.  So, it seems to work out about right.  What goes on under the hood may not be all that bad after all.

But please, gents, don't pontificate that we're stubborn, or cowardly, or that we like to replay turns to cheat.  That's demeaning to a number of serious AI players out here and it makes you look small.  I happen to love the game and will play it a long time.  I'm 60 frikkin' years old and expect that one day a doctor will tell my wife "... he said he wants to finish this turn before we cut off the life support ...."

(in reply to Oliver Heindorf)
Post #: 70
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 2:36:50 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Matto

Problem is, that in PBEM are allied little bit boosted ... I´m playing two campaigns from both sides, both only in December 41 and in both are Japanese in troubles ... it is not easy attack like in old WitP. I cannot imagine, how it will look at 1943 ...



Where did you get this? The Allied side was not boosted in (or for) PBEM games.


I think he's dealing with an Allied player who's making better use of "hindsight" than he is. The Japanese do need to operate on a "shoestring" early on, and an Allied player who pushes everything to the max can tie some nasty knots in it. Probably more a need for discussion and some houserules/gentlemen's agreements than a major re-write.



There are two types of Allied players. Those that consider the early game troops in the Philippines, Malaya and Indonesia as fodder and will use them in a manner that slows the JFB down at every turn, and those that play at Sir Robin, hoping to save those troops for an even more powerful end-game push.

I actually prefer playing the first type, since the game is general more challenging the whole way through.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 71
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 2:43:49 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

Once you play PBEM you will never go back to playing the AI.

Nothing compares to the feeling of knowing the move you just made is making someone cringe in front of a monitor half way around the world.




Or cringing yourself wondering if you really should have sent KB to <insert area here> after you've already mailed the turn off.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 72
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 2:46:33 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I have played both PBEM and vs the AI. There are pro and con for both. It's like the fight between the JFB and AFB. Some are not going to change their mind no matter what you say or do. IMO, it is easier to win vs the Japanese AI regardless of the settings. The Allies just have too much stuff to overcome. Taking on the Allies AI with the difficulty setting on hard or very hard will be more challenging. Neither will be able to give you the same challenge as a human opponent, but that is true of any computer game vs the AI. I always play the AI using 2 or 3 day turns.

Just my $.02

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 10/9/2009 2:48:10 PM >

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 73
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 2:50:30 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Most of those other games aren't on my computer anymore either, while this one remains and has since the days of UV.


You have had AE since UV?!?!?!


Martians can do things like that, and some other things that you don't want to know about.


It's scary....very scary....

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 74
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 2:53:39 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

oh boy, is that really this diffcult ?

I think the pbem fanboys dont understand the original intension of the thread starter at all.

To make it more clearly to you think this way :

You own a car brand A. You have problems with it and it needs repair. The poster asks for help.  Instead of helping some ppl start to talk about a car brand B imho but obviously this wont help at all....



Since we have a car analogy: a part of the problem is that you bought a hybrid, and all hybrids tend to run better in one mode or the other.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Oliver Heindorf)
Post #: 75
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 3:26:35 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

About all these "just play a human" posts has encouraged me to do is NOT to play a human. We get it already, you love PBEM. Great. I'm glad you love it. Some of us don't. We'd like to discuss issues with the AI occasionally and try to find better ways for it to work.

AE has been a HUGE improvement to playing the AI so apparently, contrary to your post, it can be fixed.


While the scripts can be tweaked, as I said earlier, Chickenboy was complaining about the cheating.

That cannot be fixed. So my original answer is still correct: if you want to play an opponent that doesn't cheat, your ONLY option is a human.


_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to The Gnome)
Post #: 76
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 3:31:48 PM   
Deca


Posts: 96
Joined: 11/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152
There are only two types of game AI



Everytime I see a "two types" of statement, I still to this day can't help but think of The Good The Bad & The Ugly in which Tuco always has those comical lines about two types....

quote:

There are two kinds of people in the world, my friend. Those who have a rope around their neck and those who have the job of doing the cutting.

quote:

There are two kinds of spurs, my friend. Those that come in by the door, those that come in by the window.




.....but one of the best lines from that movie (even though it was not a "two types") was the following:

*Approaching a column of grey-clad cavalry*
Tuco: (shouting) God's with us because he hates the Yanks too!
*Officer pats the grey dust from his blue uniform*
Blondie: God's not on our side because he hates idiots also.


Everytime it brings a smile to my face.
Classic

_____________________________

"In times of war, the Devil makes more room in Hell"

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 77
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 4:56:27 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

Well, I only play against the AI.  My sachedule is such that I can only play in spurts.  I'll have a whole weekend where I can crank out three weeks or a month of game time, but then may not be able to get back to it for a couple of weeks.  A human player wouldn't tolerate waiting on my turns in the off-period, and I wouldn't tolerate waiting for someone else even a few hours during my "on" time.

If the game is designed to be PBEM only, then it should say so.  If it's PBEM "highly encouraged," then Matrix should just say that up front, as well, BUT tell us that the AI cheats and how it cheats to some extent.  Then, the consumer knows what his $100 is giving him.

As a one-time very serious military histirian, I play the game to explore strategical possibilites, so it's disconcerting to discover that the AI doesn't have to refuel, or it soesn't need air support, or it .....you get the idea.  Those things mean that the side I play is bound by historical conditions, but the other side is not.  So, it's strategic decisions are scripted, or worse, arbitrary.  I would hope that the cheats would be based on reducing the impact of certain historical restrictions, rather than eliminating them altogether.  It far preferable, for example that the AI gets an air repair bonus of some percent, or it uses fuel at some reduced rate, or it can load troops a little faster, or .... well, those are better than just having no fuel needed for a TF.  If the Japanese have no fuel or supply restrictions then they can do VERY ahistorical things.  That is a problem for me, given the reason I play in the first place.

All that said, I'm not very disappointed in the AI at all with AE.  A little too adventurous, I suppose, but MUCH better than WITP.  It seems to place the player in the position of not knowing what to expect, so all possibilites have to be considered (and with the AI cheats NOTHING is impossible, my only real complaint, I guess.)  But, I've found that even with all the cheats, by mid to late '42, a Japanese AI is pretty much screwed.  It's frittered away it's CVs, it's pilots are inexperienced, and it's ability to conduct offensive operations is essentially over.  That's pretty close to what happend, ALTHOUGH IT'S NOT HOW IT HAPPENED.  So, I get to plan the inevitable counter-attack pretty much like it was done historically.  So, it seems to work out about right.  What goes on under the hood may not be all that bad after all.

But please, gents, don't pontificate that we're stubborn, or cowardly, or that we like to replay turns to cheat.  That's demeaning to a number of serious AI players out here and it makes you look small.  I happen to love the game and will play it a long time.  I'm 60 frikkin' years old and expect that one day a doctor will tell my wife "... he said he wants to finish this turn before we cut off the life support ...."

Thanks, BJ. Nicely put.

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 78
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 5:02:05 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Deca

*Approaching a column of grey-clad cavalry*
Tuco: (shouting) God's with us because he hates the Yanks too!
*Officer pats the grey dust from his blue uniform*
Blondie: God's not on our side because he hates idiots also.


Everytime it brings a smile to my face.
Classic

Uh-uh, Deca. That's NOT the best line from the movie.

The best line from the movie was when they're in the town near Sad Hill Cemetery. Tuco and Blondie (The Man with no Name) have just finished gunning down all of Angel Eyes' flunkees. They look for him in a bombed-out building, but find the body of one of the henchmen with a note pinned to it. Tuco tries to read the note:

Tuco: "See you soon...id...id...I can't read what he wrote."

Blondie pulls the note out of his hand, finishing the written line: "Idiots. It's for you (hands the note to Tuco)."



(in reply to Deca)
Post #: 79
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 5:53:48 PM   
FirstPappy


Posts: 744
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

Well, I only play against the AI.  My sachedule is such that I can only play in spurts.  I'll have a whole weekend where I can crank out three weeks or a month of game time, but then may not be able to get back to it for a couple of weeks.  A human player wouldn't tolerate waiting on my turns in the off-period, and I wouldn't tolerate waiting for someone else even a few hours during my "on" time.

If the game is designed to be PBEM only, then it should say so.  If it's PBEM "highly encouraged," then Matrix should just say that up front, as well, BUT tell us that the AI cheats and how it cheats to some extent.  Then, the consumer knows what his $100 is giving him.

As a one-time very serious military histirian, I play the game to explore strategical possibilites, so it's disconcerting to discover that the AI doesn't have to refuel, or it soesn't need air support, or it .....you get the idea.  Those things mean that the side I play is bound by historical conditions, but the other side is not.  So, it's strategic decisions are scripted, or worse, arbitrary.  I would hope that the cheats would be based on reducing the impact of certain historical restrictions, rather than eliminating them altogether.  It far preferable, for example that the AI gets an air repair bonus of some percent, or it uses fuel at some reduced rate, or it can load troops a little faster, or .... well, those are better than just having no fuel needed for a TF.  If the Japanese have no fuel or supply restrictions then they can do VERY ahistorical things.  That is a problem for me, given the reason I play in the first place.

All that said, I'm not very disappointed in the AI at all with AE.  A little too adventurous, I suppose, but MUCH better than WITP.  It seems to place the player in the position of not knowing what to expect, so all possibilites have to be considered (and with the AI cheats NOTHING is impossible, my only real complaint, I guess.)  But, I've found that even with all the cheats, by mid to late '42, a Japanese AI is pretty much screwed.  It's frittered away it's CVs, it's pilots are inexperienced, and it's ability to conduct offensive operations is essentially over.  That's pretty close to what happend, ALTHOUGH IT'S NOT HOW IT HAPPENED.  So, I get to plan the inevitable counter-attack pretty much like it was done historically.  So, it seems to work out about right.  What goes on under the hood may not be all that bad after all.

But please, gents, don't pontificate that we're stubborn, or cowardly, or that we like to replay turns to cheat.  That's demeaning to a number of serious AI players out here and it makes you look small.  I happen to love the game and will play it a long time.  I'm 60 frikkin' years old and expect that one day a doctor will tell my wife "... he said he wants to finish this turn before we cut off the life support ...."


BJ,
I could not have said it better than you just did. Bravo!

Pappy

(in reply to morganbj)
Post #: 80
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 6:12:51 PM   
Swayin


Posts: 317
Joined: 1/27/2007
From: Bellingham, WA
Status: offline 		Is it annoying to see Betties launching from a level 2 airbase on Tarawa, armed with torp after torp, to hit my amphibs near Canton? Yes.

Is it annoying to know Russia will never activate no matter how few troops are in Manchuria? Yes.

Is the game more fun playing the AI when the AI actually has more teeth? Yes. so I guess I don't mind the cheating that much, because it makes my games vs the AI that much more interesting.

And for the record, I play both AI and PBEM, and enjoy them both.

_____________________________

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves


(in reply to FirstPappy)
Post #: 81
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 6:41:44 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Do ya' remember when we were pushing cardboard counters around on a map which covered an entire ping pong table?
We were all having a good time, having swiped cold chicken from the fridge upstairs, hoping the hosts' wife would not be home to check on it till after we left.......and everybody was nice and polite with each other...till "Rodney", the group nerd finally un-assed the toilet upstairs and came down in his miserable blue colored Bermuda shorts, dorm 'flip-flops", and the plastic pocket protector for his multi-colourd ink pens.

"Rodney" always had the rule book folded into his rear pocket, and you just KNEW he had been thumbing thru the pages during his "sabbatical" upstairs.....and he was sure to pull some new and recently learned "tricks" he had just gleaned between rule 22a and rules 26b, and WHO was gonna wanna look thru the rulebook after good 'ol "Rodney" had been thumbing throught it "UP THERE"????

Well....the deal is....."Rodney" is still with us...He is the AI, and always has been, except now, "Rodney" is bigger, picks his runny nose more often, and belches like your mother-in-law!

I like what they did to the AI, compared to the imbecile we used to contend with.

(From now on, ya' gotta bring your own chicken.)

_____________________________




(in reply to Swayin)
Post #: 82
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 6:51:02 PM   
RHoenig


Posts: 89
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that there is not an AI made that can challenge a human without cheating in a complex game like AE. I think the day that happens we'll revisit the computers-taking-over-the-world paranoia from the 70's and 80's. We'll break out the Rush:2112 albums and Tron.


He he, I´d like to quote a line from "The Lost Fleet" novels.

"If an AI can´t deploy and use a weapon on its own, you can´t realy trust it in combat.
But if it _can_ deploy and use a weapon on its own, you can´t trust it at all."

_____________________________

"Tell the King: After the battle my head is at his disposal, during the battle he may allow me to use it!
GenLt. Seydlitz to Frederik the Great after disobeying an order to attack

R. Hoenig, Germany

(in reply to IronWarrior)
Post #: 83
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 6:52:32 PM   
Oldguard1970

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 7/19/2006
From: Hiawassee, GA
Status: offline 		During the AE development period, I recall reading about Andy Mac's work to devise and revise AI scripts. (All hail Andy Mac for the grand results.)

As the AI operates from a script, and given the daunting complexity of AE, there is no way the AI will ever be able to match a semi-capable human player. That said, it sure is neat to encounter some of Andy's "surprises", and the AI is doing a fine job of serving as a sparring partner.

Now, about those scripts... I seem to remember that it might be possible for players to develp their own AI scripts. (Can you be more devious than Andy Mac?) If so, that would provide a fine outlet for the "AI only" set of players. Imagine playing against "Gnome AI version Two" or "Marty's Killer AI."

Can anyone confirm my feeble memory about player modified or created AI scripts?





quote:

ORIGINAL: Marty A


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Gnome

About all these "just play a human" posts has encouraged me to do is NOT to play a human. We get it already, you love PBEM. Great. I'm glad you love it. Some of us don't. We'd like to discuss issues with the AI occasionally and try to find better ways for it to work.

AE has been a HUGE improvement to playing the AI so apparently, contrary to your post, it can be fixed.


You not say why you do not like e mail game. witp ai can change too if someone took time to do. they do do not take time. fault matrix on this. this game may be easier to change ai but old game not impossible. you say ai in ae huge improve over witp. others say not. again you not say why you think it is better.



_____________________________

"Rangers Lead the Way!"

(in reply to Marty A)
Post #: 84
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 7:11:37 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Yes you can at present there are 13 AI scripts that I am supporting each of which has a slightly different set of AI suprises but there is NOTHING to stop other folks from adding more and doing their own either to put into the rotation or to replace them all.

13 x 1500 scripts is about as many as I can personally cope with but I am sure others who have the time can amend AI scripts

(in reply to Oldguard1970)
Post #: 85
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 7:41:50 PM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Do ya' remember when we were pushing cardboard counters around on a map which covered an entire ping pong table?
We were all having a good time, having swiped cold chicken from the fridge upstairs, hoping the hosts' wife would not be home to check on it till after we left.......and everybody was nice and polite with each other...till "Rodney", the group nerd finally un-assed the toilet upstairs and came down in his miserable blue colored Bermuda shorts, dorm 'flip-flops", and the plastic pocket protector for his multi-colourd ink pens.

"Rodney" always had the rule book folded into his rear pocket, and you just KNEW he had been thumbing thru the pages during his "sabbatical" upstairs.....and he was sure to pull some new and recently learned "tricks" he had just gleaned between rule 22a and rules 26b, and WHO was gonna wanna look thru the rulebook after good 'ol "Rodney" had been thumbing throught it "UP THERE"????

Well....the deal is....."Rodney" is still with us...He is the AI, and always has been, except now, "Rodney" is bigger, picks his runny nose more often, and belches like your mother-in-law!

I like what they did to the AI, compared to the imbecile we used to contend with.

(From now on, ya' gotta bring your own chicken.)



Save your breath M10bob, you will never be able to convince the religious sect of the "PBEM Order of Purists" that we should be able to enjoy this game. How many times must it be said that PBEM gang indeed have and will always have a more realistic experience.

It has been shown by surveys (at least with WITP) that the majority owners of the game do either exclusively or primarily play against the AI. That is why there has been such a push by the Dev Team of AE to upgrade/improve our experience BECAUSE THEY NEEDED OUR DOLLARS TO MAKE THE PROJECT PAY FOR ITS SELF. Instead of being the least bit grateful for our interest, that permits them to have this game, they never end their bombardment of negativity and ridicule of the AI model even though it doesn't effect them in the least. They seem to suggest (by their superior attitude) that we are foolish for playing our childish checker game.

Oh BTW, thank you AE- Dev team and Andy Mac your work is at least appreciated by this 67 year old man.

< Message edited by Buck Beach -- 10/9/2009 7:45:52 PM >

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 86
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 9:33:46 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Yes. quite right. Over 97% of the people who buy the game do not post. Over 75% of the people who post play against the AI. The game is designed so as to have a challenging AI for those players. The game is designed to support AI play; there is some support for H2H and PBEM play, but not limited thereto.

If AI players wish to report issues, they (and we) do not want to hear about how PBEM is superior. These people have needs and desires, and it is incubent on us to do what we can to satisfy them, without some "my winkie is bigger than yours" hijack. So please, all you PBEM perfectionists, back off and go about your own business.

Sorry about this, but it's time to wake up and smell the hard drive burning.

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 87
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 9:40:22 PM   
AcePylut


Posts: 1494
Joined: 3/19/2004
Status: offline 		Amen brother JWE!

_____________________________


(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 88
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 9:58:51 PM   
IronWarrior


Posts: 801
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: Beaverton, OR
Status: offline 		I think a main concern, which I've seen happen in countless games, is that tweaks to singleplayer often screw up multiplayer. I remember when I played Company of Heroes, there were balance issues that could not be tweaked because it would throw off the single player campaign. Not saying it would happen, but I'd hate to see the same with AE because of some unrealistic expectations from an AI. I'm not telling people how they should play the game, but it is what it is. Pbem players have needs and concerns too right?

Sometimes I wish there were seperate patches for singleplayer and multiplayer.

Interesting, you said there is some support for multiplayer... are you saying that this is primarily a singleplayer game against the AI? I guess I need to ask this upfront before buying games in the future.

< Message edited by IronWarrior -- 10/9/2009 9:59:28 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to AcePylut)
Post #: 89
RE: Very disappointed - 10/9/2009 10:23:12 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Yes you can at present there are 13 AI scripts that I am supporting each of which has a slightly different set of AI suprises but there is NOTHING to stop other folks from adding more and doing their own either to put into the rotation or to replace them all.

13 x 1500 scripts is about as many as I can personally cope with but I am sure others who have the time can amend AI scripts


Is the ability to use torpedoes vs. airfield size or 4 engine bomber vs. airfield size even in the AI Scripts?

All I want is an AI that plays by some of the same rules as the player. (obey airfield size vs torpedoes and aircraft engine size, take a little longer loading/unloading, and some random delay with any movement bonus (so you don't notice).




< Message edited by pad152 -- 10/9/2009 10:32:03 PM >

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 90
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