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- 6/27/2002 4:00:30 AM

HMSWarspite

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HARD_SARGE
[B]Hi HMSWarspite

LOL

In fact nows what ACG stands for

sort of reminds me of the time I was watching the news, and they had a upcomeing report on the number of ATM's showing up all over the place, and here I am sitting there thinking, what is she talking about, why are anti-tank mines showing up around here ?

by the way, isnt it AGC ?

:)
HARD_Sarge [/B][/QUOTE]

Better add 'a grog knows that ACG is a typo for AGC'!

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Post #: 31

me thinks - 6/27/2002 4:49:39 AM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, If all this is Grognards then I think there are more Grognards hanging out in "Art of War" then any other forum

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Post #: 32

"My authority knows better than yours!" - 6/27/2002 5:26:32 AM

Tuomas Seijavuori

Posts: 91
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
An example for our newcomer: ^ Grog reply above ^
;) [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks Marc. :) (never been called a Grog before)

Indeed, what we have here is a classic "wargamer fight" over which author is an authority and which is not! I'm replying because I see this as an excellent chance to educate myself further by reading more books and getting to know "the other side of the story" HARD_SARGE is advocating.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by HARD_SARGE
ah, do you know anything about combat on the eastern front, or are you just replying based on what is in a book ?and again, lets let this post die and get back to the real point of the fourm, UV
[/QUOTE]

If you mean "do you know by first hand experience", the answer is no, I wasn't even born then. I am replying based on what I have read in books by men who were there at the time (and what I've learnt from my grandfather and granduncles who fought both the Germans and the Soviets). Another account of the collapse of AGC is in F.W.Mellenthin's [I]Panzer Leader[/I], p.338- . Of course he too can be discredited by the same statement: he was a German (general staff) officer. I'm now wondering who's books am I supposed to believe, if the author must 1) posess first hand knowledge and 2) must not be a German commanding officer on the front at that time. Please point me to an English language source providing the other side of the story. I can read German, but it's so much slower for me than I'd rather not.

To Jennifer: Who are R.D. M�ller and H.-E. Volkmann and why do they know better? Is their study available in English? I am genuinely interested and would be grateful if you had the ISBN of the English edition at hand.

Note that I'm not saying I believe everything German generals and staff officers say in their memoirs. Mellenthin in particular is doing a lousy job hiding his racist views about the Slavs which puts everything else he writes under some suspicion. It is difficult to deny, however, that he had a great vantage point to the military operations as they took place both in North Africa (he was Rommel's Ia) and in the Eastern front where he was the Ia of the 48th Panzer Korps.

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Post #: 33

- 6/27/2002 5:31:08 AM

Huskalator

Posts: 212
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline

WOT: Tuomas this is like the third forum I have seen you on. Small internet :cool: .

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Post #: 34

- 6/27/2002 5:38:31 AM

Tuomas Seijavuori

Posts: 91
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline

I'm the Starbase Delta forums moderator and I've posted here a few times, but what is the third forum? :confused: I don't consider myself very active poster.

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Post #: 35

- 6/27/2002 5:46:20 AM

Huskalator

Posts: 212
Joined: 5/17/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline

I think I saw you on Gone Gold a couple times.

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Post #: 36

- 6/27/2002 5:49:24 AM

Tuomas Seijavuori

Posts: 91
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Deep Breakfast
[B]I think I saw you on Gone Gold a couple times. [/B][/QUOTE]

Nope, sorry, I didn't even know they had forums.

Err... sorry about this private exchange everyone... moderator, feel free to delete it. :o

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Post #: 37

- 6/27/2002 10:02:24 AM

HARD_SARGE

Posts: 176
Joined: 5/27/2002
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline

Hi Tuomas
sorry, my writing does not come across the way I mean at times

was asking more along the lines of which books and types of books are you reading to get your info, if it is just the Memours of high staff officers, or if you also have read the lower ranks and the tec manuals(the two you mention are both sort of old, which does not take anything away from them)

plus there is also some from the SU side, which those are getting better

the part that got me, was the statement that just by pulling back 12 miles, AGC could of stopped the assullt that destroyed it, I respect Snell Heinz, I think that is a over simple statement, AGC had to cover 1/3 of the entire eastern front (it would shorten his front, and there by releaseing more troops for reserve)

HARD_Sarge

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Post #: 38

Re: "My authority knows better than yours!" - 6/27/2002 8:44:48 PM

IMJennifer

Posts: 28
Joined: 6/4/2002
From: Rural Wisconsin, U.S.A.
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tuomas Seijavuori
[B]

If you mean "do you know by first hand experience", the answer is no, I wasn't even born then. I am replying based on what I have read in books by men who were there at the time (and what I've learnt from my grandfather and granduncles who fought both the Germans and the Soviets). Another account of the collapse of AGC is in F.W.Mellenthin's [I]Panzer Leader[/I], p.338- . Of course he too can be discredited by the same statement: he was a German (general staff) officer. I'm now wondering who's books am I supposed to believe, if the author must 1) posess first hand knowledge and 2) must not be a German commanding officer on the front at that time. Please point me to an English language source providing the other side of the story. I can read German, but it's so much slower for me than I'd rather not.

To Jennifer: Who are R.D. M�ller and H.-E. Volkmann and why do they know better? Is their study available in English? I am genuinely interested and would be grateful if you had the ISBN of the English edition at hand.

Note that I'm not saying I believe everything German generals and staff officers say in their memoirs. Mellenthin in particular is doing a lousy job hiding his racist views about the Slavs which puts everything else he writes under some suspicion. It is difficult to deny, however, that he had a great vantage point to the military operations as they took place both in North Africa (he was Rommel's Ia) and in the Eastern front where he was the Ia of the 48th Panzer Korps. [/B][/QUOTE]

Tuomas -- M�ller and Volkman edited the proceedings of a symposium, it's actually a collection of presentations on the Wehrmacht by a group of historians. Unfortunately, it's only available in German -- not easy German either :( . The work is valuable because they [I]analyze[/I] bodies of evidence. For example, the weaknesses of the German command structure. The German High Command was very strong in the area of operations, but was also characterized by a certain myopia regarding personnel management, materiel and intelligence. The structure itself was flawed in that the supreme command of the armed forces was actually a parallel command structure to the supreme command of the army and had little authority over other branches (navy and air force). If you are looking for a better understanding of what actually happened, you should be happy with the operational studies you mention, just bear in mind that these were written post-war for a wider audience and all contain self-serving elements. I believe you are correct in your assessment of von Mellenthin, nevertheless he is an excellent primary source for the campaigns in which he participated. By reading a combination of primary and secondary sources, you will develop a feel for what to trust and when you uncover contradictions, you will often be able to draw the correct conclusion as to which to believe. Probably the best work on the subject is the Milit�rgeschichtliches Forschungsamt (Research Intitute for Military History) [I]Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg[/I] (Germany and the Second World War), more or less the German official history of the war. It is a work of outstanding scholarship in methodology, documentation and interpretation. Oxford University Press is translating it and has published 6 of the 10 volumes thus far. Vol. IV, [I]The Attack on the Soviet Union[/I] covers the Russo-German War through 1941. Unfortunately, this 1364 page book costs USD 250 -- making it one of the more expensive books I own. :(

Since Hard_Sarge will no doubt (and quite justifiably) take me to task for once again wandering so far from UV -- you can PM me for more information. Hope this helped.

Jennifer

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Post #: 39

- 6/27/2002 9:35:05 PM

dd371

Posts: 15
Joined: 6/5/2002
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

Just in case you are interested, one website is [url]www.oup-usa.org[/url] and search on "germany and the second world war".

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Post #: 40

Re: Another kind of Grog - 6/27/2002 9:46:13 PM

Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: V�ster�s,Sweden
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Hi there. Hopefully there is another class of Grognard. (I consider myself among these)
This Grognard must have and play any wargame. They tend to latch onto Companies or designers. (not periods or wars).
Where the normal gamer will have 1 PBEM game this type Grognard will have 6 (and another 6 in another game)
[/B][/QUOTE]

Right on the money Mogami!:) :D
Dan

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Post #: 41

sources - 6/27/2002 11:04:49 PM

Tuomas Seijavuori

Posts: 91
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline

Thank you Jennifer so much for the pointers. This is exactly what I was looking for.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IMJennifer
Probably the best work on the subject is the Milit�rgeschichtliches Forschungsamt (Research Intitute for Military History) [I]Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg[/I] [/QUOTE]

Sigh. Now I know how every Finnish-challenged person feels when they try to get their hands to really comprehensive account about Finland in WW2. I've got my local library full of excellent works which has never been translated to any other language.

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Post #: 42

Re: sources - 6/27/2002 11:19:37 PM

IMJennifer

Posts: 28
Joined: 6/4/2002
From: Rural Wisconsin, U.S.A.
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tuomas Seijavuori
[B]Sigh. Now I know how every Finnish-challenged person feels when they try to get their hands to really comprehensive account about Finland in WW2. I've got my local library full of excellent works which has never been translated to any other language. [/B][/QUOTE]

:D It's very annoying! People like me would love to get their hands on that stuff, Finnish military accomplishments in the 20th century are fascinating, but almost nothing is written in English, the Russian sources are highly biased, and the Germans (for the most part) have ignored the subject. Alas, Finnish is a remarkably difficult language to learn.

See if your library, or another library nearby has [I]Germany and the Second World War[/I]. An excellent study in English you might look at is Geoffrey P. Megargee, [I]Inside Hitler's High Command[/I]. Although a bit harsh at times, it is a well-researched study and for the most part I find it difficult to quarrel with his analysis. I just checked at Amazon.com and it's $25 in paperback. Not bad for an academic study.

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Post #: 43

Re: sources - 6/27/2002 11:35:51 PM

Posts: 3332
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From: V�ster�s,Sweden
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tuomas Seijavuori
[B

Sigh. Now I know how every Finnish-challenged person feels when they try to get their hands to really comprehensive account about Finland in WW2. I've got my local library full of excellent works which has never been translated to any other language. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi

I know what you mean Tuomas. There are tons of books about the Second World War in japanese that I cant gain access to because of the langauge barrier. Not only about that war but Japanese history in general. Getting bored with reading english speaking authors and their views. Luckily there are some fantastic American scolars on Japanese history so I will survive:)
Dan

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Post #: 44

- 6/28/2002 6:41:48 PM

HARD_SARGE

Posts: 176
Joined: 5/27/2002
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline

Hi Jennifer

Since Hard_Sarge will no doubt (and quite justifiably) take me to task for once again wandering so far from UV

nay, I would not take you to task, it is a good area to talk about

besides, you know too many big words, and even worse, big words in Germen, while I have to use as many small words as I can, so you are very safe from any hassles from me

besides you got a avatar, and I don't :(

HARD_Sarge

250 ? wow, my top book was 50 something, and now nobody can find it, got too many and nowhere to put them

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Post #: 45

How not to get an avatar - 6/28/2002 6:59:25 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline

Die N�chte, die Affen fliegen, halten mich wach und bedecken mich mit K�se, wenn ich gehe zu schlafen .

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Post #: 46

Re: How not to get an avatar - 6/28/2002 7:39:04 PM

IMJennifer

Posts: 28
Joined: 6/4/2002
From: Rural Wisconsin, U.S.A.
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami
[B]Die N�chte, die Affen fliegen, halten mich wach und bedecken mich mit K�se, wenn ich gehe zu schlafen . [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmmm.... Okay:

Wenn es eine Freude ist das Gute zu geniessen, so ist es eine gr�ssere das Bessere zu empfinden, und in der Kunst is das Beste gut genug!

-- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe [I](Italienische Reise)[/I]

:) Jennifer

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Post #: 47

Just to add another grognard trait to the list...skepti... - 6/28/2002 7:52:56 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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Wow!!!!!!!! IMJennifer sounds so hot. :cool: The avatar is a nice touch, too. However...."Rural Wisconsin" and "20th Century German Strategic Thought" seem to lie a little bit too far within the juristiction of NO WAY LAND. Could this be a grognard ploy? Is this an imposter?:p :eek:

Remember! If found to be a shpy, zee penalty is........death! I vill ask you zees questions vonce only!

Vat is your beer of choice?

Vat is your preferred fragrance?

Of published "wimmin" writers, whom do you prefer?

Who is your most favourite varrior on the glorious German National Socialist Soccer Team?

I vant answers!

:D

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Post #: 48

- 6/28/2002 8:03:19 PM

Ron Saueracker

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I'm probably in caca now.:rolleyes: :)

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Post #: 49

LOL - 6/28/2002 8:05:21 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
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Hallo, bringen eine grosse Gewehr wie Goethe heraus

Freude, sch�ner G�tterfunken,
Tochter aus Elysium,
Freude, sch�ner G�tterfunken!

Ron wheres my UV turn?

"20th Century German Strategic Thought"

"Fairy Land, just like fairy land" Duane Hoobler Breakfast of Champions, Kurt Vonnegut jr

(Grognard mode off)

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Post #: 50

- 6/28/2002 8:18:15 PM

Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: V�ster�s,Sweden
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Hi folks

Some nice german for you here. Its a bedtime story for german kids to scare them to sleep during the 30-year war. For those of you who know your history this was a long time ago.

"Bet Kindchen, bet, morgen kommt der Schwed"

Its funny!:D

Dan

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Post #: 51

- 6/28/2002 8:23:49 PM

Admiral DadMan

Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
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**Groan**

Now I'm having flashbacks to my High School German class...

and I quickly realize that I've forgotten too much to write what I'm thinking...

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(O.o)
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CVB Langley:

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Post #: 52

Mogami - 6/28/2002 8:28:14 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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UV PBEM. Have been trying to get a problem with Bosun sorted out. Had to reinstall UV from scratch. I'll send one tonight and lots this weekend. Same for U2. and Crocky. Don't you guys have enough to keep you busy. I know the potato chip comparison.:D

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Post #: 53

Scary German poem - 6/28/2002 8:30:50 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
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Hallo
Ist hier, warum ich nie schlafe,
Mein Haar ist auf Feuer
Insekte leben innerhalb meines Kopfes
Ist, das es, die keine Musik?
denke ich sie bin Ger�usche
Bewachung heraus.

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Post #: 54

Re: Mogami - 6/28/2002 8:32:03 PM

Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: V�ster�s,Sweden
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]UV PBEM. Have been trying to get a problem with Bosun sorted out. Had to reinstall UV from scratch. I'll send one tonight and lots this weekend. Same for U2. and Crocky. Don't you guys have enough to keep you busy. I know the potato chip comparison.:D [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Ron

Great to hear! But we have not talked about sides, scenario and settings yet. Drop me an email at [email]daniel.patocka@swipnet.se[/email]
Dont drink too much on Canada Day;)
Dan

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Post #: 55

4 way? - 6/28/2002 8:37:26 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, Prehaps this game could be set up as the first 4 way (2 players per side)
Scen 17 (only one with 2 clear dividing lines)

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Post #: 56

Sounds great but how? - 6/28/2002 8:44:48 PM

Ron Saueracker

Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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I'll try anything.

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Post #: 57

Re: Sounds great but how? - 6/28/2002 8:45:26 PM

Posts: 3332
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From: V�ster�s,Sweden
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
[B]I'll try anything. [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not sure how it works either.
Dan

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Post #: 58

4 way - 6/28/2002 8:52:14 PM

Admiral DadMan

Posts: 3627
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From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
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I imagine you'd have to do it as a round-robin sort of thing:

Players 1 and 2 are Japan, Players 3 and 4 are Allied.

Player 1 makes his moves, sends save game file to player 2.

Player 2 makes his moves, and completes the PBEM process to send to Player 3.

Player 3 makes his moves, saves, and sends to player 4.

Player 4 makes his moves, ends turn, and sends appropriate files to Player 1

So, Players 2 and 4 are the ones to be doing the sending part, players 1 and 3 do the recieving parts. I haven't done PBEM yet, so I don't have the particulars.

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

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Post #: 59

4 way UV - 6/28/2002 8:54:47 PM

mogami

Posts: 12789
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From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, First find four insane people who own UV
next pick team 2 Japan 2 Allies
1st Japan moves his units etc save (not ends) turn and send to 2nd Japan (who keeps his paws off 1st Japans stuff) he makes his orders and ends turn who sends to first Allied, who passes to 2nd Allied who gives orders and ends turn sending file to 1st Japan. (2nd Japan and both Allied would need to watch replay every turn starting on turn 2)

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Post #: 60