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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 8:52:33 AM   
PyleDriver


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Well you must remember 42 and others games are still in testing...As far as the winter of 41/42, you shorten the lines and dig in and wait. It sucks but you just wait. It takes 3 years to beat this giant, so just take your licks in the winter of 41 and move on...

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 9:08:46 AM   
PyleDriver


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In game balance, hum...Theres been some 20 of us testing for 2 years, and were still working on it. I know this won't be a off the hip quick release by Gary and Joel...We have a great bunch of testers that seem to cover all the areas that seem to get missed in other games...Oh I will add, Pavel (helpless) from the Baltic States did our map (locations, info), other guys did the art, and so much more, he has been a great help...

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 9:39:29 AM   
SGHunt


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PyleDriver writes "I may post some ss's...Ah maybe not...Only if theres requests..."

You tease - of course we want the ss's! 

Elmo - my thoughts on your current position (vey happy to be told any or all of this won't work!)

AGN: taking Leningrad is a must as soon as you can.   The Finns then take over the security of the Northern lines and it frees up your fast forces to support further South.   Worth heavy caualties, IMO.   Can you get your Inf Divs to take the worst of the assault on Pushkin, whilst the Pz and Mot Divs circle round to the South East to complete the encirclement?
 
Someone mentioned the use of the large calibre artillery battalions against Leningrad on another thread - are these nearby and, if so, how can you make sure they are used against Pushkin?

AGC: Moscow is a no go now it seems.   I wonder if there is any way you can manufacture another big pocket before the blizzards.   Reorganise during the mud, and then a quick thrust when the snow comes, liquidate the pocket and then dig in?  How many weeks of snow before the really bad weather starts?

Good luck!



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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 11:07:12 AM   
Platypus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

In game balance, hum...Theres been some 20 of us testing for 2 years, and were still working on it. I know this won't be a off the hip quick release by Gary and Joel...We have a great bunch of testers that seem to cover all the areas that seem to get missed in other games...Oh I will add, Pavel (helpless) from the Baltic States did our map (locations, info), other guys did the art, and so much more, he has been a great help...


....just gets better and better...

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 11:22:03 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger 

Elmo - my thoughts on your current position (vey happy to be told any or all of this won't work!)

AGN: taking Leningrad is a must as soon as you can.   ...
 
Someone mentioned the use of the large calibre artillery battalions against Leningrad on another thread - are these nearby and, if so, how can you make sure they are used against Pushkin?

AGC: Moscow is a no go now it seems.   ...

Good luck!




We are certainly going to push for Leningrad. Freeing up the Finns would help. I don't micro manage support units and would not even know where to look for artillery specific units. To do that my AAR would be slowed to a crawl which I'm sure most people don't want.

Moscow is not out of reach. Remember Typhoon didn't even start until about now and we are a lot closer to Moscow than the Germans were back then when it did start. The problem is the bulge. I am considering thinning the line in front of Moscow for now and striking at one or both flanks to try and force the Soviets to pull back or create pockets as Stuart suggested. Decisions, decisions...

Since I'm not really playing this to win an alternative is to just keep pushing along and let you guys see why that is a bad idea when Blizzards come. With random weather it's hard to say how much more mud there will be and when the blizzards will come.


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 11:51:27 AM   
SGHunt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

I don't micro manage support units and would not even know where to look for artillery specific units. To do that my AAR would be slowed to a crawl which I'm sure most people don't want.

I certainly don't want you to start doing a lot of that micro-management (I would be miserable without the daily update but to get the big guns working seems appropriate here! I think they are probably lurking with 18th Army anyway

With random weather it's hard to say how much more mud there will be and when the blizzards will come.



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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 12:00:04 PM   
elmo3

 

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OK I let the AI do a bombing mission against the defenders in Pushkin.  Disappointing results, and maybe we were just unlucky.  I know Gary has been adjusting bombing results for some time now.  Plenty of time for further adjustments if he feels they are needed of course.  Will do turn 16 later today and post the screen shots.




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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 12:26:53 PM   
ComradeP

 

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That's a lot of AA for 1 hex, no wonder the results of the bombing were less than stellar. With that much AA, you're lucky you lost only 5 bombers, especially as you were also intercepted by MiG's.

Could you post a screenshot showing most of the central part of your front? The northern flank seems to be more dangerous than the southern flank as long as you capture Kaluga and pin the Soviets against the Ugra and Oka rivers.

With random weather, is it possible to have a "warmer" winter, which would mean more mud but less blizzards?

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 12:31:06 PM   
elmo3

 

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Also the defenders are dug-in (level 3 fortifications IIRC) in a city so the low results are not out of line.  Especially with no fighter cover and good flak.  Will post a shot in a little while ComradeP.  Gotta eat and get my son on  the school bus.

Edit - It's a level 5 fort in Pushkin.

< Message edited by elmo3 -- 3/8/2010 1:09:15 PM >


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 12:34:38 PM   
SGHunt


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Maybe the 216 (!) x 85 mm AA guns made the Luftwaffe think carefully before getting too close!   

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 12:40:22 PM   
elmo3

 

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Two quick shots as requested:






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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 1:32:22 PM   
USSLockwood

 

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I'm very curious to see if the AI will take advantage of the situation that AGC is apparently in.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 1:38:20 PM   
Great_Ajax


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Oh boy. Andy was right! AGC looks like such a juicy target right now. All those line regiments strung out like that. Yummy :)

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: doktor

I'm very curious to see if the AI will take advantage of the situation that AGC is apparently in.



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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 1:41:21 PM   
wiking62


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It will be quite a disappointment if the AI does not try to cut-off the bulge created by AGC. Watching this situation with a great deal of interest.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 1:50:34 PM   
wiking62


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412

Is the distance a routed unit moves limited?

How exactly do the game mechanics work, ie. does a unit have to be disrupted before it routs?

Will the Axis forces suffer attrition during winter turns, especially in 1941?


Any info. on the questions above?


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 2:15:14 PM   
CaptBeefheart


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Elmo: Highly informative AAR for an excellent game which I will be purchasing when released. If I could make one humble suggestion: perhaps you could identify the turn and game date for each post of a new turn (maybe weather too if that makes sense) to make it easier for us to follow.

Thanks,
CC


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 4:20:31 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412

Is the distance a routed unit moves limited?

How exactly do the game mechanics work, ie. does a unit have to be disrupted before it routs?

Will the Axis forces suffer attrition during winter turns, especially in 1941?



Not sure about your first question. They won't rout to Siberia if that is what you mean. When a unit is forced to retreat it suffers attrition and then checks to see if any weapons are destroyed, damaged, or captured. Then it checks to see if it shatters or routs. If it routs it suffers further attrition and does a displacement move to it's HQ if possible or nearby town/city if it can't go to it's HQ. There is more to it but that is the general idea.

At one point there was automatic first winter attrition for non-Finnish Axis units but I believe that has been changed to combat modifiers and other effects instead.

Hope that helps.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 4:21:13 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

Elmo: Highly informative AAR for an excellent game which I will be purchasing when released. If I could make one humble suggestion: perhaps you could identify the turn and game date for each post of a new turn (maybe weather too if that makes sense) to make it easier for us to follow.

Thanks,
CC



I have been trying to do that lately but may have missed a turn. Will go back and edit the posts if I get a chance.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 4:41:50 PM   
Captain B


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Elmo,

Do you think if the AI re-do (defending cities, etc.) that set you back to mid-August was far enough back? If the AI chose to defend cities early on could you not have surrounded and captured more soviets and therefore they may not be at your flanks ready to cut you off now? Something to think about.

btw, i hope you saved the version where you were ready to roll into red square...go back and have some fun and capture moscow!!! Spend the winter in the capital and go shopping at the GUM department store.

Great job by the way again.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 4:49:54 PM   
Captain B


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Elmo, another quick question...


In WIR, there was a formula for how many infantry squads were eliminated per turn based on if they were moving and 10% before the replacement phase or something similar to that (if memory serves me correctly)...what is the formula for WiTE? Is it for all blizzard conditions or only for the 1941 blizzard...or do special rules apply for 1941?

Thanks.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 6:05:58 PM   
ComradeP

 

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For those worrying about how lethal the winter is going to be to Elmo, here's some historical information on casualties:

Up to November, the Germans (not the Axis, the Germans alone) had suffered 686.000 casualties, that's 20% of the 3.4 million men (including replacements) at or send to the Eastern Front since the fighting started or about a regiment for each division. Out of the roughly half a million motor vehicles, 1/3 were worn out or damaged beyond repair and only 1/3 were serviceable. According to OKH, the 136 divisions at the Eastern Front had a strength of 83 full strength divisions.

The Soviets had about 4.2 million men at the front in early December. Even if we take the Soviet official literature's figures for troop strength and losses in terms of divisions, out of the 461 divisions at or moved to the front or in reserves since June 22, only 279 were in field (that's as paper units) in early December. That's a loss rate of 39%. The majority of the roughly 2 million militia divisions, local party reserves and the like had been badly mauled or simply disappeared.

Source: Moscow to Stalingrad - Decision in the East by the (US) Center of Military History.

Even though Soviet losses have not been spectacular, Axis forces are still in a good shape, although it's difficult to tell what the AFV losses represent. In any case, I doubt that at this point 6th and 7th Panzer have a combined strength of 600 guys and no tanks like in real life December 1941.

Soviet aircraft losses have been considerable, and Luftwaffe losses are fairly historical thus far: up to November the Luftwaffe had an average monthly strength of 2.462 aircraft and an average monthly loss rate of 741 aircraft, which more or less matches the current result, although that seems to be for all Axis air forces, which means elmo's probably doing fine. Up to around November, the Luftwaffe had lost 5002 aircraft in 1941 (all fronts) and had 3.562 damaged aircraft (all fronts). By late September, Luftwaffe "in commission" rates dropped to below 60% for fighters and below 50% and later 40% for bombers. As elmo's not managing all of his air assets himself, I'd say the results have been pretty good thus far compared to history.

Source: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945 - Strategy for Defeat by Williamson Murray.

-

Elmo, if I may give some advice, remember not to turn the advance to Moscow into a copy of Stalingrad: you don't need to capture Moscow for any strategic goal, you're pushing towards Moscow by choice.

Suggestions for future pre-winter combat actrions in the northern/central front:

See if you can capture most of Leningrad. You can probably take your time. Try to push the Soviets back into the marshes and wish them a good winter. I'd suggest destroying/pushing back the 4=28 stack south of the air recon in the western part of the Leningrad sector screenshot so you can open more rail lines. I don't know whether air HQ's need a ground like to evacuate, because if they do the AI has presented you with a fine chance to destroy some aircraft north of Leningrad after you encircle/occupy the city.

I'd suggest pulling your guys back to Vyazma. After that, shift your tanks to the south in the good tank country and capture Bryansk. Establish a defensive line at the river Bolva. You have two rivers to fall back to in the immediate surrounding area. I really doubt the Soviets can get through there.

South of Velikiye Luki, I see a mob of Rifle formations that are just begging to be encircled as they're in a position they can't quickly get out of it seems. Capture Velikiye Luki and possibly push the flanks up to Rzhev. As Rzhev is on the "wrong" side of the river, you might want to wait with capturing it although I guess it could serve as the anchor to your northern flank.

Suggestions for the southern/central sector: The bridgehead east of Kiev is nice, but not necessary. Try to pull back a bit and push back the Soviets directly north of Kiev.

From a defensive perspective, you basically have two choices of where to position your defensive line: You could shift some Panzers south to capture Cherkassy and Kirovograd and build a line there, although you'll also have to push back the Soviets further south. If the weather holds for a while, that might be possible, but it's a more risky option. Your "line" at Cherkassy is a huge gaping hole currently, so you'll have to do something in any case.

The less risky option would be to simply draw a straight line south from Kiev and defend along the rivers in the area, pulling back the Minor Axis forces to the west back of the rivers (some of them are across) but still pushing the Soviets back to Nikolaev. Nikolaev, like Rzhev, is on the "wrong" side of the river, so you might want to wait with capturing it. The south is mostly tank country, so you should be able to plug breakthroughs easily provided your Panzer divisions are not at the frontline.

The historical 1941-1942 Soviet winteroffensive worked because the Axis were stretched thin, not due to the quality of Soviet troops or the brilliance of their plan (Stalin basically planned to encircle every Army Group at the same time, ignoring suggestions from Zhukov and others for more limited encirclements). If you place your forces from Vyazma to Nikolaev in a more or less straight line, using rivers to your advantage, you should be able to hold out, especially if you rest your forces and prepare for most of November. The primary thing to keep in mind is that in 1941 and early 1942, the quality of Soviet forces is still poor, so it doesn't really matter how many guys they bring as long as you're prepared and rested.

Try not to suffer from the "victory disease" many wargamers suffer from, trying to always push further. It's time to stabilize the front through limited gains, secure the flanks and dig in. Make the Soviets suffer when they attack.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 3/8/2010 6:06:28 PM >

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 6:23:03 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain B

Elmo,

Do you think if the AI re-do (defending cities, etc.) that set you back to mid-August was far enough back? If the AI chose to defend cities early on could you not have surrounded and captured more soviets and therefore they may not be at your flanks ready to cut you off now?...


At most there would have been a few more units to surround. But in general yes, I should have been looking to make more pockets. Don't forget though that the point of the rollback was to see if it was now tougher to get to Moscow as well as making sure the AI did a better job guarding cities. So I wanted to use the same plan of slicing through to Moscow. So far I'd say the AI is doing better.


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 6:25:15 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain B

Elmo, another quick question...


In WIR, there was a formula for how many infantry squads were eliminated per turn based on if they were moving and 10% before the replacement phase or something similar to that (if memory serves me correctly)...what is the formula for WiTE? Is it for all blizzard conditions or only for the 1941 blizzard...or do special rules apply for 1941?

Thanks.


Never played much WiR so I can't compare the two really. And I don't know how attrition is calculated in WitE. There are some special first winter rules for WitE that affect non-Finnish units as I mentioned a few posts above this one.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 6:33:21 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

...

-

Elmo, if I may give some advice, remember not to turn the advance to Moscow into a copy of Stalingrad: you don't need to capture Moscow for any strategic goal, you're pushing towards Moscow by choice.

....


Yes I did want to try and recreate the progress made before the restart so that is why I have been pushing toward Moscow, not for any strategic reasons. Sort of a before and after approach if you will. Blizzard conditions don't usually come until December although there will be more Mud turns between now and then.

I'm about to start the turn and still have not decided exactly what I want to do. It is often my style to play that way rather than planning three turns in advance. The latter approach is probably a better way to play WitE but it's hard to teach an old dog like me new tricks.


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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 6:45:46 PM   
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I thought the reds where"programed" toi fall aprt in this game if M fell?

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 6:59:07 PM   
wiking62


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

For those worrying about how lethal the winter is going to be to Elmo, here's some historical information on casualties:

Up to November, the Germans (not the Axis, the Germans alone) had suffered 686.000 casualties, that's 20% of the 3.4 million men (including replacements) at or send to the Eastern Front since the fighting started or about a regiment for each division. Out of the roughly half a million motor vehicles, 1/3 were worn out or damaged beyond repair and only 1/3 were serviceable. According to OKH, the 136 divisions at the Eastern Front had a strength of 83 full strength divisions.



I presume you are including wounded and captured in the 686,000 casualties?

The actual number of KIA's was 302,495 or about 11% of the total manpower on the Eastern Front.

These figures are taken from Rüdiger Overmans book Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg.



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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 7:11:53 PM   
Joel Billings


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

For those worrying about how lethal the winter is going to be to Elmo, here's some historical information on casualties:

Up to November, the Germans (not the Axis, the Germans alone) had suffered 686.000 casualties, that's 20% of the 3.4 million men (including replacements) at or send to the Eastern Front since the fighting started or about a regiment for each division. Out of the roughly half a million motor vehicles, 1/3 were worn out or damaged beyond repair and only 1/3 were serviceable. According to OKH, the 136 divisions at the Eastern Front had a strength of 83 full strength divisions.



I presume you are including wounded and captured in the 686,000 casualties?

The actual number of KIA's was 302,495 or about 11% of the total manpower on the Eastern Front.

These figures are taken from Rüdiger Overmans book Deutsche militärische Verluste im Zweiten Weltkrieg.




So far, Lee's right on track with 159k killed as of the start of October. Maybe he's doing a little better than historical if those losses are only through November. He's lost 48k men in the past 4 weeks. If he keeps up with 12k per turn, he could end November with only 270k KIA (and he may end up with less losses in mud if he reduces his number of attacks).

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 7:42:48 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

I presume you are including wounded and captured in the 686,000 casualties?


Yes, I think the authors meant "all causes", so KIA/WIA/MIA/POW.

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 7:46:45 PM   
wiking62


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

I presume you are including wounded and captured in the 686,000 casualties?


Yes, I think the authors meant "all causes", so KIA/WIA/MIA/POW.


I forgot to add in my previous post, if anyone is interested in the book i listed above, here are the details:

Publisher: Oldenbourg Wissensch.Vlg
Language German
ISBN-10: 3486200283
Paperback: 367 pages

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RE: Operation Barbarossa - Alpha AAR - 3/8/2010 9:08:30 PM   
elmo3

 

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10/2/41 (turn 16):  AGN is pushing (pun intended) closer to Pushkin.  We are in position to get about as good an attack next turn as we can.  We'll continue to bombard the defenders but I'm not expecting much help there.  You may be bale to see that it's muddy just to our East and hopefully the ground will remain firm for our assault next turn.




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