Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger



OK - not a crisis, but maybe a surprise. These attacks knocked back back not just single Rumaninian or Italian units, but stacks, one of which (the most Northerly) included a German inf. division. Another included driving back back one unit, then the stack that was behind this. The Russian units don't seem that numerous, and the minor axis stacks aren't that weak, are they? Havve you seen the combat reports? Do they shed any light on this outcome - my guess is armour attacking with only weak AT defence?

S

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke


[That doesn't sound right. Quickly glancing through my sources, there were 6 Soviet divisions against 5 Finnish divisions at Karelian Isthmus on 9th of September 1941, when the Finns dug in there, and 4 Soviet divisions and 1 brigade against 4 Finnish and 1 German divisions at Syväri on October-January. The game doesn't cover other Finnish fronts.

It is obviously a serious game design issue, if the Soviets can use only 10% of the size of the Finnish forces to tie them down...

The Finnish No Attack line allows the Russian to oppose the Finns with a minimum of force. I don't know if it is possible to solve this problem without resorting to something equally onerous but I can refer it to Gary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

3) For all intents and purposes the Finnish totals can be ignored. Unless elmo can take Leningrad (and that's looking questionable) the Finns are now of almost no benefit, perhaps tying down at most a Russian force 10% their size.

That doesn't sound right. Quickly glancing through my sources, there were 6 Soviet divisions against 5 Finnish divisions at Karelian Isthmus on 9th of September 1941, when the Finns dug in there, and 4 Soviet divisions and 1 brigade against 4 Finnish and 1 German divisions at Syväri on October-January. The game doesn't cover other Finnish fronts.

It is obviously a serious game design issue, if the Soviets can use only 10% of the size of the Finnish forces to tie them down...

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ORIGINAL: B455

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ORIGINAL: Keke

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

3) For all intents and purposes the Finnish totals can be ignored. Unless elmo can take Leningrad (and that's looking questionable) the Finns are now of almost no benefit, perhaps tying down at most a Russian force 10% their size.

That doesn't sound right. Quickly glancing through my sources, there were 6 Soviet divisions against 5 Finnish divisions at Karelian Isthmus on 9th of September 1941, when the Finns dug in there, and 4 Soviet divisions and 1 brigade against 4 Finnish and 1 German divisions at Syväri on October-January. The game doesn't cover other Finnish fronts.

It is obviously a serious game design issue, if the Soviets can use only 10% of the size of the Finnish forces to tie them down...

It has been said a number of times that this thread should be related to Elmo's excellent AAR only. However, yet again this issue about the Finnish front pops up. I repeat myself: at this point the battle of Leningrad does not seem to get proper modelling at all because Finnish front can be manned with some odd 1-1 Soviet units. Historically, as Keke pointed out, it tied-up significant number of Soviet divisions and other units. Currently if this issue won't be addressed, it would be better to exclude the Finnish front and have appropriate Soviet divisions excluded as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Are you guys sure losses vis a vis production are getting modeled correctly. Comparing against the earlier summer OOB posted, Germany now have more troops and Tanks (@700 more) slightly less guns. The Roumanians seem to have found 100,000 more men 700 more guns and maintained their tank strength. The Russians also look odd. Should both sides not be like Glantz's boxers about now?

1. If the rail line into Lennigrad is cut, can the units in Lennigrad be supplied by water through Lake Ladoga before it freezes? I read the Soviets used small boats to supply the city before the lake froze but I do not know how effective it was.
   
2. Will the need to supply civilians and evacuate them from the city reduce the amount of supplies received by the combat units in the city?

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ORIGINAL: zbig

Questions about the Lennigrad assault:

1. If the rail line into Lennigrad is cut, can the units in Lennigrad be supplied by water through Lake Ladoga before it freezes? I read the Soviets used small boats to supply the city before the lake froze but I do not know how effective it was.
   
2. Will the need to supply civilians and evacuate them from the city reduce the amount of supplies received by the combat units in the city?

Thank you.

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We're still in alpha so I wouldn't bet my paycheck on the accuracy of the numbers but with respect to the Germans they did continue to receive reinforcements throughout the summer and into the Fall including the 40th Panzer corps (2nd & 5th Panzer divisions) so they might not be off as much as you think. The Rumanians also receive reinforcements although I can't say if they amount to 100,000 men and 700 guns. As for the Russians all I can say is that they have suffered far fewer casualties in elmo's game than historic. Hard to say how much that is throwing everything off.

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ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Understand its Alpha just hoping it will get checked out. I cant imagine even with the most spectacular success Germany actually increasing in strength during the 41 campaign given that Halder noted a 200,000 man shortfall in September historically. I also cant imagine in the same scenario the release of 2nd and 5th Pz in September bringing the total number of AFV's to a pre Barbarossa total let alone 700 more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Understand its Alpha just hoping it will get checked out. I cant imagine even with the most spectacular success Germany actually increasing in strength during the 41 campaign given that Halder noted a 200,000 man shortfall in September historically. I also cant imagine in the same scenario the release of 2nd and 5th Pz in September bringing the total number of AFV's to a pre Barbarossa total let alone 700 more.

I looked at the numbers in the data base and actually they tie in a lot closer than I would have thought. Elmo began with roughly around 3,500 AFVs. The Germans are producing about 100 AFVs of all types per week so over 17 turns they would have churned out about 1,700 AFVs giving them roughly 5,200 and elmo shows losing around 1,000 so he should have around 4,200 left which is what the OB screen shows.

I think the issue is not whether the game is tabulating losses correctly because it seems to be doing so, but rather whether the Germans should have only lost 1,000 AFVs in 17 weeks of combat. Are these low losses an indication of a problem with the combat resolution system or merely a product of elmo's playing style? I think we cannot make such a determination from a single sample game. I, personally, have lost as many as 300 AFVs in a single turn so I think the numbers have more to do with how elmo is playing the game then that anything is wrong with the game system per se but finding these things out is exactly why we do playtesting.

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looked at the numbers in the data base and actually they tie in a lot closer than I would have thought. Elmo began with roughly around 3,500 AFVs. The Germans are producing about 100 AFVs of all types per week so over 17 turns they would have churned out about 1,700 AFVs giving them roughly 5,200 and elmo shows losing around 1,000 so he should have around 4,200 left which is what the OB screen shows.

I think the issue is not whether the game is tabulating losses correctly because it seems to be doing so, but rather whether the Germans should have only lost 1,000 AFVs in 17 weeks of combat. Are these low losses an indication of a problem with the combat resolution system or merely a product of elmo's playing style? I think we cannot make such a determination from a single sample game. I, personally, have lost as many as 300 AFVs in a single turn so I think the numbers have more to do with how elmo is playing the game then that anything is wrong with the game system per se but finding these things out is exactly why we do playtesting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

Understand its Alpha just hoping it will get checked out. I cant imagine even with the most spectacular success Germany actually increasing in strength during the 41 campaign given that Halder noted a 200,000 man shortfall in September historically. I also cant imagine in the same scenario the release of 2nd and 5th Pz in September bringing the total number of AFV's to a pre Barbarossa total let alone 700 more.

I looked at the numbers in the data base and actually they tie in a lot closer than I would have thought. Elmo began with roughly around 3,500 AFVs. The Germans are producing about 100 AFVs of all types per week so over 17 turns they would have churned out about 1,700 AFVs giving them roughly 5,200 and elmo shows losing around 1,000 so he should have around 4,200 left which is what the OB screen shows.

I think the issue is not whether the game is tabulating losses correctly because it seems to be doing so, but rather whether the Germans should have only lost 1,000 AFVs in 17 weeks of combat. Are these low losses an indication of a problem with the combat resolution system or merely a product of elmo's playing style? I think we cannot make such a determination from a single sample game. I, personally, have lost as many as 300 AFVs in a single turn so I think the numbers have more to do with how elmo is playing the game then that anything is wrong with the game system per se but finding these things out is exactly why we do playtesting.

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ORIGINAL: elmo3

10/23/41 (turn 19)  Mud definitely hampered AGC operations this turn.  However we still managed to pocket 10 Soviet divisions and brigades that will not be breaking out and we are in position to expand northward next turn if the weather clears. Someone commented on Soviet airpower. Take a look at all those airbases to the north. Sheesh. My panzers would dearly love to tear through them!

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ORIGINAL: el hefe

Pain train is coming, Lee. Are you prepared? LOL. I can't wait. Good luck!

Trey

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ORIGINAL: el hefe

Pain train is coming, Lee. Are you prepared? LOL. I can't wait. Good luck!

Trey

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ORIGINAL: Zorch

Looking way ahead, could we see a 'War in the West' sequel to War in the East? WitE is bound to set all kinds of sales records (the Avatar of computer wargames?).

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ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

Elmo - what happened around Pskov?   Tidied up, I'm sure but I would like to know how and with what extra support.

...

quote:

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

Further to my last post, and I hope this is still relevant to this AAR (let me know if not), do the characteristics of the Leaders affect the recklessness or caution of the AI when planning and executing these counterattacks?

S