RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/27/2010 1:51:28 PM

PyleDriver

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(DAR) I just have to show During Action Reports. I think it gives a better feel of the game...Kleist has fought hard to defeat the Soviets at Svobda, the rail crossing across the Don. Now things should start rolling for 1st PzA...

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Post #: 361

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/27/2010 2:46:47 PM

PyleDriver

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Well the spring was sprung. Kleist busted the front and is moving into the rear. And the bridge is being repaired... This is still a DAR as I have to move my Hq's still. Just wanted to show the beauty of this move...

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< Message edited by PyleDriver -- 4/27/2010 2:49:21 PM >

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Post #: 362

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/27/2010 3:32:12 PM

SGHunt

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Jon

Suh-weet!

Questions remain:

1. Without the other arm of the pincer von Kleist's trap will not snap shut, allowing the Sovs to withdraw the bulk of their troops (especially the armour) and set up yet another line. They lose Voronezh and some infantry, but this may not be the decisive blow OKH requires to relieve Hoth? Maybe the infantry army to the West has to take heavy casualties in launching frontal assaults against prepared positions (and against armour) in order to provide this support?

2. Hoth is really stretched - seems that crossing the Oka and forming the pocket was too much.
Suport for the bridgehead you do have over the river seems to be a priority, and the pockets must be crushed immediately.
Maybe shift the whole weight of the panzer army to the West, conceding ground to the East, to ensure both these jobs are done in strength?

I know, I know, it's not my game....

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Post #: 363

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/27/2010 5:26:43 PM

PyleDriver

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Stuart, Kleists push was not tactical, but stratigic, he will roll the line... Yes I want them to pull north. The bridgehead over the Don was the key...As far as Hoth, hum, it may take some time to get my forces across. And yes I need to clear the rear, 2nd PzA, I need it freed to provide the right flank for Hoth...The AI has got so much better, damn it...lol...What you guys don't see is during these attacks the AI is fliping reserves left and right at me. The attrition is killing me right now...

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Post #: 364

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/27/2010 6:03:04 PM

PyleDriver

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I miss spoke. I ment a railhead over the Don...

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Post #: 365

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/27/2010 7:01:13 PM

SGHunt

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...and he'll take the railway with him as he goes North?

He will will need to link up with the infantry army or he has no flank protection, but this happens after the Russians scarper and Voronesh has fallen? They naturally fall in to the East and to the rear of Kleist's advance, as 4th(?) Army did with Hoth.

So what happens if they stand and make another dog fight of it?

Stuart

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/27/2010 7:15:29 PM

ComradeP

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In the screenshot of the Tula area (post 356), the Panzer division in the bottom left seems to be really banged up, it has the same strength as some minor Axis divisions.

The Soviets seem to have a fairly strong armoured force next to Voronezh, they could hit Kleist's spearhead hard, not to mention that Kleist's Eastern flank looks a little shaky.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/27/2010 7:40:48 PM

The SNAFU

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Given the number of reserves the Soviets are throwing in, is there concern about possible strong attacks on the shoulders of the bulges created by 2nd and 4th Panzer Armies? They're both rather thin and seem to invite the chance to cut off both pincers.

Discussing all the what if's being generated by this AAR just makes waiting to launch my version of Barbarossa that much harder. There is no doubt this is the game I've been hoping for.

< Message edited by The SNAFU -- 4/27/2010 7:42:45 PM >

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Post #: 368

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/27/2010 9:48:55 PM

Flaviusx

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He threw in that beat up panzer division presumably because he had nothing else available to tie down that remarkably stubborn pocket southwest of Kaluga. (You really really need to wipe that out already. Especially if you plan on pocketing Tula.) It's coming down to the last battalion as time is running short. Despite all the maneuvers on the map, this has become a grinding battle of attrition.

The lunge around Voronezh seems a bit desperate and dubious to me as well. If anything, he ought to redirect the mobile forces there immediately north to assist Hoth directly who really doesn't have the chops right now to do what he's been tasked with. Shut down this part of the front and make it quiet, just like Rostov.

For myself, the latest screens just confirm my initial impressions: the Germans are getting ground down here and running out of gas and are going to have to stop sometime in the next month or so or burn themselves out past the danger point. I do not believe Moscow is going to fall or come anywhere near falling. The Tula pocket alone is going to take some time to properly seal and digest.

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Post #: 369

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/27/2010 10:31:18 PM

karonagames

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Based on my testing, I think Jon will take Moscow during the third week of November, and that his panzer divisions will have an average of 30-35 tanks still running. While the AI is very, very good, as we have seen already it does have some "off" turns that will leave cracks that we can exploit, but Gary is very good at reducing the cracks with each new update.

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Post #: 370

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/27/2010 10:34:28 PM

PyleDriver

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Never said this was going to be easy. After Voronezh falls 6th Army will shift to Kleists right...Everything is now on the move towards Moscow...I did make a mistake trying to close Leningrad agian, I got hit hard with counters there...Thanks Joel...lol...

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Post #: 371

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 12:10:49 AM

Flaviusx

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Is there any kind of blizzard effect during the second winter? Or is it just ordinary bad weather? (To the extent bad weather in Russia can ever be described as "ordinary" heh.)

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Post #: 372

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 4:01:26 AM

PyleDriver

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Theres no harsh rules for the second winter...So after the mud it's all fair game...

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Post #: 373

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 4:49:13 AM

PyleDriver

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(BAR) Hoth took some hits on is left, but still stand firm. The 17th and 12th PzD's in rebild recieved alot of new armor...

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Post #: 374

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 5:01:03 AM

PyleDriver

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(BAR) Flav, Kliest is supporting Hoth, but in the rear. Right up the ass. Watch he will roll this entire line north...Another (ss)....Just watch...Damn I love this game...

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Post #: 375

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 6:16:51 AM

PyleDriver

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A little S&T...It's all about the plan. Fad and thrust. Kleist will bolt hard and where will he go? Model is pressing hard on the north, Hoth on the south. Pressure my friends. Its the key. Then Kleist has bust into the rear. These Soviets are troops that are green or moved along way. Hit them before they can think...Kleist is going to amaze you...

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Post #: 376

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 6:45:32 AM

Flaviusx

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I just think you're going to waste too much time cleaning up that mess around Voronezh as opposed to just assisting Hoth directly and the clock is ticking. The armor will get banged up along the way, too. The river by Voronezh is a natural stop line anyhow.

If Hoth and Kleist combined directly, you'd have the power immediately to clear the Tula pocket and push across the Oka at the same time.

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Post #: 377

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 7:04:56 AM

PyleDriver

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Trust me, It's all about timing, tempo and postition. You need to draw these guys out of there trenchs...Thus Kleist...Please grab hold of this...This is going to to be good...Btw, I bet Moscow falls before the first rain...(mid October)...Do I have you guys on the edge of your seat...I know I do, enjoy...lol...

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Post #: 378

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 7:21:05 AM

PyleDriver

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Flav, have you been watching 6th Army? They have rested now for almost a month. There biting on the bit to see action. Kleist wont be sticking around, the party is in Moscow...

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Post #: 379

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 9:16:11 AM

karonagames

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Won't take that bet-Gary has a nice surprise waiting for you at the Gates of Moscow - at least he did in my game, and you are playing with Fog of War on.

< Message edited by BigAnorak -- 4/28/2010 10:23:37 AM >

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 1:33:02 PM

PyleDriver

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Bob I should have said I bet I have it isolated by mid October. You are right that the AI has become nasty with suprises..

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Post #: 381

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 1:46:36 PM

karonagames

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Yes, I agree with that.

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 4:42:43 PM

PyleDriver

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(BAR) This was a tough one...Model will cross the Tveritsa River, but what to do with Armin's corps, it's so powerfull...Hum...I did a fade across the Shlina River with Tot SS to draw reserves. That didn't work. I want the Valdai Hills secure, but I need Models left covered...I have looked at this screen for an hour now...Truth is the party is in Moscow and Model is going to sack Kalinin, and Armin will be on his left..

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Post #: 383

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 4:55:46 PM

ComradeP

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Seems the AI went somewhat braindead again.

-No defensive perimeter around Voronezh. The units not in Voronezh are simply exposed for no defensive benefit.
-Guarding Voronezh with one or more Tank Corps doesn't make any sense at all.
-The "line" between Tambov and Ryazan looks like Swiss cheese. I would almost expect the AI to place a sign saying "Herzlich Willkommen in Ryazan" in the city.
-The "line" in Hoth's area is partially on the wrong side of the major river.

If I were the AI, I might even be tempted to pull back to a river line in the greater Tambov area. Currently, the AI is making your pockets for you.

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Post #: 384

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 5:28:00 PM

janh

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What are the Blizzard rules? In WiR it was just really gamey to give the Russians so much advantage. I would have preferred to see the Russian get some supply bonus and lower supply and mobility for the Germans, but just making them helpless in winter 41 was kind of stupid. I never liked that approach, seemed a bit like a no-brainer developed to give a stupid AI an edge. How have the rules evolved since then?

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 6:55:14 PM

ComradeP

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From elmo's AAR:

quote:

Ice level in zone 4 is 4 and it's 5 or above in the other three zones so most rivers are frozen solid and lose their defensive benefit (bad news for me). There are several First Winter rules in effect for each Blizzard turn from Dec 41 through March 42. Non-Finnish Axis units have their combat values divided by three are more likely to retreat in combat and less likely to cause Soviet units to retreat. Soviets (and Finns) have their combat values doubled to reflect first winter surprise and their better preparedness. First Winter rules can be mitigated somewhat in tows, cities, and urban areas so I moved a number of units off the front line and into reserve in populated areas. Supply is adversely affected in certain areas of the map during these blizzard turns. There is additional attrition for non-Finnish Axis units. I "think" mountain units get a break from some of these special rules but I'm not seeing that in the manual right now.

That is, however, for the first winter (1941-1942) only, Pyledriver seems to imply that the penalties for the non-Finnish Axis units/bonuses for the Finns and Soviets are less substantial in blizzard conditions in the other winters.

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Post #: 386

RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 7:26:51 PM

PyleDriver

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OK kids, one more time. S&T here only on this AAR. Q&A goes on the Q&A thread please...This is getting like a bad record that skips over and over and over agian...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 8:56:48 PM

PyleDriver

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Now back to the game... Comrade I really think the AI did a decient job near Voronezh. It left enough there to be a headache and formed a right flank on Kleist...

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/28/2010 10:02:18 PM

Zorch

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PyleDriver, watch your step entering Moscow...the Russians were prepared to blow up the city.

Wartime bomb found at Bolshoi
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2097813.stm

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RE: OKH Plan 1942 - Alpha AAR - 4/29/2010 3:06:38 PM

ComradeP

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quote:

Comrade I really think the AI did a decient job near Voronezh

Doesn't armour get some sort of penalty in a city? Why would anyone defend a city with a Tank Corps, or possibly more than one?

It just seems strange to see infantry in the open and tanks in the city.

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