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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 10:30:47 PM

Redmarkus5

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Let me just add that Helpless and others are working over Christmas to make this game better. We must say "thank you". We all share the same goal.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 10:40:11 PM

ComradeP

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Your suggestions would further reduce player control, which isn't desirable redmarkus.

Over time, I hope the player will get more control over air operations, not less control due to further abstractions.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 10:41:32 PM

Helpless

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Guys, just to be clear. As it was stated in other threads we going to invest into improving air model and this is on the high priority. But due to the all complexity (it is not much simple than BTR inside) it is not going to be a quick fix.

Just recently we discovered 2 quite bad air combat bugs, which are affecting all operations - bad escort allocations and incorrect mileage logging. Don't expect any miracles, but for sure they had some impact on the final results.

Also, we are very open to every feedback from players, but you should understand that just one number in OOB doesn't mean and show much. If you suspect that something is wrong, please post more details, send saves, etc. Thanks.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 10:42:44 PM

Aurelian

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How many planes the Sovs had at the Battle of Kursk is nowhere near the amount that they had for the whole front.

And how many a/c were in the Far East was a small percentage of what was in the West. The Japanese kind of had their hands full from 1942 on.

The Luftwaffe and Co were always out numbered in the air IIRC after 1941.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 10:44:53 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Your suggestions would further reduce player control, which isn't desirable redmarkus.

Over time, I hope the player will get more control over air operations, not less control due to further abstractions.

Im not sure it reduces control as right now you have none the system is umanagable, you have a pointless number of air counters that dont fit the scale of the game. You have mechanics that does not suit the 24/7 nature of the airwar. I think these suggestions give you more control

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 10:46:49 PM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Your suggestions would further reduce player control, which isn't desirable redmarkus.

Over time, I hope the player will get more control over air operations, not less control due to further abstractions.

So I am shot down in flames :)

You have no comments regarding the conflict between the tempo of ground ops and that or air ops? Naval ops when you move to the Western Front release will be equally problematic, unless the engine moves to 1 day per turn, IMO...

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 10:53:03 PM

ComradeP

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quote:

Im not sure it reduces control as right now you have none the system is umanagable, you have a pointless number of air counters that dont fit the scale of the game. You have mechanics that does not suit the 24/7 nature of the airwar. I think these suggestions give you more control

Some parts of the system can't be managed, but some are working as I personally feel they should, but that's a matter of taste. I don't think the on-map air bases are a problem, as the alternatives would be airfields, which would require an airfield in every clear, light woods or urban hex. I don't like the thought of that.

quote:

So I am shot down in flames :)

You have no comments regarding the conflict between the tempo of ground ops and that or air ops? Naval ops when you move to the Western Front release will be equally problematic, unless the engine moves to 1 day per turn, IMO...

I'm not shooting you down in flames, I'm saying that currently the focus is on more control and less abstraction, whilst your suggestions would do the opposite.

I don't really see the problem with the tempo of ground and air operations. Given the size and scale of the game, I'd say the current MP usage and percentage miles flown system is quite functional. It beats the heck out of phased turns or detaching the air war from the ground war in my opinion, but again: opinions will differ.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 10:57:03 PM

Helpless

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quote:

The Luftwaffe and Co were always out numbered in the air IIRC after 1941.

Quantity of planes was not decisive in many cases. If you look at the number of sorties, LW had big superiority at the places they wanted. This is somewhat reflected in the game in such a way that air groups with higher morale can fly more, i.e. make more sorties. So it doesn't help much if you have 15K planes when only 5K can actively fly missions.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 11:09:42 PM

Smirfy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Some parts of the system can't be managed, but some are working as I personally feel they should, but that's a matter of taste. I don't think the on-map air bases are a problem, as the alternatives would be airfields, which would require an airfield in every clear, light woods or urban hex. I don't like the thought of that.
quote:

Take a screen shot of the map they are ugly and irelevent. A counter to represent 10 U-2's c'mon please accept this is a nosense when we are talking about 15k soviet planes and Korps having 23,000 men . The alternatives are not airbases the alternative is representing airpower at a higher echelon, the unit and machine detail will be there.

< Message edited by Smirfy -- 12/26/2010 11:10:36 PM >

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 11:12:15 PM

ComradeP

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There are no air group counters, so there's no counter for 10 U-2's.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 11:19:23 PM

Helpless

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Actually we were thinking of having larger representation for air units. Have Soviet air divisions instead of air regiments as air groups. But current game engine doesn't support mixed plane types within air group. So it would be a big generalization to have all uniform air divisions, when even regiments were mixed. So one of improvements could be to make the air groups to support several plane types, in the way ground units come with multiple ground elements. But it smells WITE-2...

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 11:44:17 PM

MechFO

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I think that using air counters to represent airfields is quite functional.

Where I agree there is a problem is with the numbers on the map, mainly with the Soviets. As I posted before, there seems to be some weird Support Needs calculation going on which means that the 250 Support Squads can't even support a full KG. This means that Airfield counters can be overloaded at 70-80 level bombers (ignoring HQ Support bonus). If this could be f.e. doubled, this would help a lot. Fighters/Recon/Tac Bombers can already be packed to a much higher practical limit.

What I think is needed is to force the AI to add Air units to Airfields until all available counters have a minimum of 250-300 AC before it creates a new Airfield unit. If necessary one can also increase the Support Squad allocation. In addition, this would also help to make Airfield attacks worthwhile, while at the same time reducing the counter bloat.

< Message edited by MechFO -- 12/26/2010 11:45:31 PM >

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 11:49:15 PM

Helpless

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quote:

Where I agree there is a problem is with the numbers on the map, mainly with the Soviets. As I posted before, there seems to be some weird Support Needs calculation going on which means that the 250 Support Squads can't even support a full KG. This means that Airfield counters can be overloaded at 70-80 level bombers (ignoring HQ Support bonus). If this could be f.e. doubled, this would help a lot. Fighters/Recon/Tac Bombers can already be packed to a much higher practical limit.

They can support, this is just a display issue.

quote:

What I think is needed is to force the AI to pack the Airfield with a minimum 250-300 AC

Similar formula already exist. Ai is creating new Air Bases based on the amount of air groups in game.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/26/2010 11:57:27 PM

Rosseau

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I am just so excited about how great this game it is going to get. Thanks to observations from devoted players like Abulbulian, Redmarkus4 and many others. Those who designed/tested the game are probably the closest to a solution for some of these issues right now.

You know a game's got a problem when no one cares anymore. With WitE, it's the exact opposite. Everyone's on the same team here.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 12:02:34 AM

squatter

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I want to micromanage the strategy of the air war, but not the operations.

So I want to be able to determine what areas of the front my machines are concentrated at, and what missions they are to focus on, and which types of machines should fly these missions.

I dont think I want to have to give orders to every squadron every turn. As many are saying, this would be unrealistic and impossible given the tempo of air operations. Three missions per day for experienced units, over a two week turn? I dont think I want control over that.

So I think abstraction is fine in relation to the air component here, and doesnt necessarily mean less user control. Give me control over strategy, in detail, and then let the AI conduct operations appropriately. This is obviously how the model is supposed to be set up now, only that it is not functioning as all would like. Feels like one of the major things missing is the abililty to prosecute an air war directed against the enemy's air assets, which seems to be effectively impossible as things stand.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 12:02:58 AM

Mus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

I spent on Soviet production ~6 months altogether. Not saying it is perfect, but you have brought zero arguments for such a bold statements in this thread.

Helpless how do you even find reliable numbers on Soviet Production given that offical numbers and reality in the USSR were often diametrically opposed? Sounds like a nightmare.

Don't mean to sidetrack the thread, but I am just curious. My impression after a brief look is that Soviet Propaganda during and 50 years after WWII has made finding the truth in many facets of the War on the Eastern Front nearly impossible.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 3:43:51 AM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
How many planes the Sovs had at the Battle of Kursk is nowhere near the amount that they had for the whole front.

33%. Source: V. D. Sokolovsky, Marshal of the Soviet Union.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 4:06:08 AM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smirfy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Some parts of the system can't be managed, but some are working as I personally feel they should, but that's a matter of taste. I don't think the on-map air bases are a problem, as the alternatives would be airfields, which would require an airfield in every clear, light woods or urban hex. I don't like the thought of that.
quote:

Take a screen shot of the map they are ugly and irelevent. A counter to represent 10 U-2's c'mon please accept this is a nosense when we are talking about 15k soviet planes and Korps having 23,000 men . The alternatives are not airbases the alternative is representing airpower at a higher echelon, the unit and machine detail will be there.

When there are strong opinions on two sides of a design issue like this, the ultimate solution is often based on adding to the User Preferences section, as in: "Toggle Abstracted Air War On/Off". Obviously this is a WiTE 2 issue, but I suspect it would be a popular adjustment with many players. Ditto for Naval warfare.

Happy to post suggestions for that approach to abstraction if there's interest...

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 4:12:47 AM

Steelers708

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:

15K Sov aircraft in June 42 and 14K serviceable. This seems unacceptable for game that is not fantasy but suppose to be somewhat historic.

Huh...

Combat planes in Red Army
June-22-1941 20K
1-Jan-1941 12K
1-Jan-1943 21.9K
1-Jan-1944 32.5K
1-Jan-1945 43.4K
9-May-1945 47.3K

Source table 185 im "�.�.�� (�� ). �� XX ��: �� "
http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri.txt

Those figures are OK, but in terms of the games "historical accuracy", so to speak, you also have to look at the losses sufferred by the Soviet airforce during the same periods and if the two roughly correlate within the game then you have the balance you are looking for.

Time Frame Total loses
June 21 - November 30, 1941-- 12,652
December 1, 1941 - April 30, 1942 -- 7,099
May 1 - October 31, 1942 -- 14,601
November 1, 1942 - June 30, 1943 -- 17,690
July 1 - December 31, 1943 -- 20,741
January 1 - May 31, 1944 -- 13,386
June 1 - December 31, 1944 -- 20,283
January 1 - May 8, 1945 -- Unknown

< Message edited by Steelers708 -- 12/27/2010 4:13:40 AM >

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 4:16:47 AM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

I think that using air counters to represent airfields is quite functional.

Where I agree there is a problem is with the numbers on the map, mainly with the Soviets. As I posted before, there seems to be some weird Support Needs calculation going on which means that the 250 Support Squads can't even support a full KG. This means that Airfield counters can be overloaded at 70-80 level bombers (ignoring HQ Support bonus). If this could be f.e. doubled, this would help a lot. Fighters/Recon/Tac Bombers can already be packed to a much higher practical limit.

What I think is needed is to force the AI to add Air units to Airfields until all available counters have a minimum of 250-300 AC before it creates a new Airfield unit. If necessary one can also increase the Support Squad allocation. In addition, this would also help to make Airfield attacks worthwhile, while at the same time reducing the counter bloat.

Don't forget that every additional counter on the map (air support units, rail repair units (plus Submarines and Naval Task Forces in WiTE 2, I guess) represents a factor affecting stacking limits (as in - you can't stack 3 combat units in a hex AND repair the rail line, which is kind of strange) as well as an additional mouse-click - running into many 1000s of clicks. Plus they hide the map and affect planning at some level - remove units is another click and restore units is one more.

Now, any UI designer will tell you that one key goal of application design is the minimisation of mouse-clicks. How many times I have heard a client say "Too many clicks!" We ignore this at our peril.

The life cycle of this game is a function of the number of units sold, so pleasing the majority of punters is a critical success factor, IMO.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 1:37:36 PM

ComradeP

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Steelers708: as said, the main problem is that those losses are usually not achievable against a competent Soviet player due to ineffective air base bombing missions after turn 1 and no air superiority phase or some way to lure the enemy into an air superiority battle (fighter sweep over air bases won't attract many planes and will just lead to damage to your fighters). If the Soviet player limits the amount of planes going into a ground battle, his air force will soon grow fairly huge.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 1:43:16 PM

mmarquo

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But if hidden the AF will not have any kills, experience, high morale etc and the Axis AF will also grow unchecked and will gain experience and morale by being used. Not so?

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 1:52:31 PM

ComradeP

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You can probably forget about the majority of the VVS becoming very experienced during the war, most squadrons will probably be above average at the end of the war but they won't be good.

The growth of Axis air forces is much more limited than the VVS, especially later on when the Soviet production really starts to kick in. Eventually, the disparity in numbers will be felt.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 2:42:33 PM

vinnie71

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Axis airforces are limited in the sense that they can only employ the groups historically available to them. So in practice from '42 onwards they will only be able to get and maintain air superiority in particular areas where they feel is necessary. In this regard I think that Axis players should create their own 'Flying Circus' or specialised units and move them according to their needs.

My take on losses of the Red AF which are not replicated in game boil down to 4 factors:

a) it seems that soviet pilots have some experience in fighting when the problem in real life was that the bulk were put in the front incompletely trained
b) some aircraft models were actually total crap, but in game can hold their own. Ex the bulk of soviet fighters were not comparible with German fighters until '43
c) Interception seems to be quite rare and most of the time, ineffective. The Germans shot down hundreds of aircraft, something which can't be replicated in game as far as I know

and

d) When airgroups suffer losses, they only lose planes, not pilots. Therefore basically the Soviets can lose aircraft in bulk and still see their airgroups getting better over time.

I think that some adjustments should be made at least to some of the above or else we end up with the Red AF sorting hundreds of planes, capable of stopping German offensives in '42/'43 on their own

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 2:49:57 PM

ComradeP

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Pilots and planes are the same thing in the game, so if you lose a plane you lose a pilot. Pilots used to be visible in their own screen, but not anymore.

During battles, the Luftwaffe can shoot down hundreds of planes, but in order for that to happen the Soviets would have to send them, and they can go for some extremely low ground support settings to make sure few of their planes will support a battle early on.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 2:54:55 PM

raizer

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In order to avoid further loses couldnt the soviet player just tank it and throw all his planes into the natl reserve after turn 1? n Or if that fails just evac everything E or just set required % to fly to 100...that way you can build up your airforce-slowly, weather the early storm of the axis...leading into winter and by the next year have your Air Horde? I did have a problem with this air model in the game but Im trusting that the testers and the devs will get it worked out so that the germans do have some shot at making offensive operations in 43 and maybe counter attacks in 44 -despite the looming threat of the air horde

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 3:06:42 PM

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Helpless seem very knowledgable. So i would be carefull in writing of his research as "fantasy" I think at least one factor here has been ignored though (on both side of the argument) :

Lend Lease aircraft.

Anyway Albulbulian what is your source when you say the soviets should have 2 100 available aircraft in january 1942? Maybe there is some misunderstanding. Since they had around 20K combat aircraft at the beginning of the war. Also the forces in the eastern might have had some significance but one should remember that even if there were lets say 4100 aircraft in the Far East then these were intact and didnt have to be replaced. So all new production could go to the west and they even weakened the Far East front to reinforce the west.

With lend lease, production and reinforcements from far east 15K airforce in 1942 seems reasonable. But they were not all operational at the same time. thats another matter.

http://operationbarbarossa.net/Fast-Facts/Soviet-fast-facts.html

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 3:15:58 PM

vinnie71

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Pilots and planes are the same thing in the game, so if you lose a plane you lose a pilot. Pilots used to be visible in their own screen, but not anymore.

During battles, the Luftwaffe can shoot down hundreds of planes, but in order for that to happen the Soviets would have to send them, and they can go for some extremely low ground support settings to make sure few of their planes will support a battle early on.

how's it possible? The game I took furthest was June '42 and most fighter groups had very few air kills. The bulk of air kills were by bombers and my guess is that they refer to the planes caught on the ground on the first turn.

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 3:58:44 PM

abulbulian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grymme

Helpless seem very knowledgable. So i would be carefull in writing of his research as "fantasy" I think at least one factor here has been ignored though (on both side of the argument) :

Lend Lease aircraft.

Anyway Albulbulian what is your source when you say the soviets should have 2 100 available aircraft in january 1942? Maybe there is some misunderstanding. Since they had around 20K combat aircraft at the beginning of the war. Also the forces in the eastern might have had some significance but one should remember that even if there were lets say 4100 aircraft in the Far East then these were intact and didnt have to be replaced. So all new production could go to the west and they even weakened the Far East front to reinforce the west.

With lend lease, production and reinforcements from far east 15K airforce in 1942 seems reasonable. But they were not all operational at the same time. thats another matter.

http://operationbarbarossa.net/Fast-Facts/Soviet-fast-facts.html

Well my only point to this thread was the issue with sov air getting 'out of control'. The numbers Helpless posted were a bit off from t he numbers I had seen for:
1) combat/util aircraft in theater
2) combat/util aircraft that the game represents
* maybe those were more prod #'s and not actual planes in use. We can argues the numbers till we blue in face, but the problem in the game still exists that sov air force is getting too large too fast and too easily.

So the bigger issue is that even with a great start and destroying 14k sov aircraft by 6/42, the axis will be at a 1:4 ratio in terms of planes. This is very inconsistent with anything historical. You don't have to read many books on east front to understand that it wasn't about till summer 43 when the sov were starting to gain air supremacy by sheer numbers. To have this happen in summer 42 when the axis player is doing 'better' than historical is an issue for ME. Now some people may not care too much, but I'd like to do what I can to make this game better.

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 12/27/2010 4:00:13 PM >

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RE: Sov Airforce out of control? - 12/27/2010 3:59:26 PM

abulbulian

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It seems that with some house rules dealing with sov air, a fair/fun pbem can still be possible.

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