Slitherine

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If Pieter says he considers them feeble and/or unsuccessful I'll just politely smile and go about my business. I think those attacks might have hurt his ego more than his forces

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ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

Well, Mr Glantz does talk about panzer divisions getting routed in 1941 in this talk, so I think he knows the soviets were capable of doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Clz27nghIg

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ORIGINAL: randallw

The Soviet median experience is above 30 but definitely below 40.  As I mention in another thread, this is like 1 German being worth 2 Soviets.

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ORIGINAL: randallw

Those morale numbers won't be much different from the experience numbers.

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

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ORIGINAL: ComradeP
I can point it out to Oleg 100 times, maybe 1000 times, but he will still refuse to see that the Germans are not really supermen, that the Soviets can make counterattacks when they concentrate forces (the key problem is lack of force concentration, not the quality of Soviet units per se) and that you can pretty easily make more counterattacks than historical. He's dogmatically attached to his perspective, nothing will change it.

Maybe in your hands vs notenome they were not supermen. In the hands of the right player they are. Germans have all the supermen tools at their disposal, but of course, if they are "sub-optimally" lead you will never see how superman-y they really are.

For starters, check, for example a very short AAR (more of a report than full AAR) of the Emir's game vs myself. Then check ACR vs myself, or Senno vs myself. I was Soviet in all of those games. Looking at the AARs you might think that Sovs were played by 2 very different people - a complete retard vs Emir, and a Gari Kasparov-like genius vs ACR. In fact neither is true, it was just good old me in all those games: solid Soviet player, but not Darth Vader.

What was different, was the way German player played, ie used his summer supermen.

Emir rolled over me, never giving me a chance to take a breath let alone counter attack. I wasn't "playing" that game, I was merely watching him. Vs Senno, yes, I can counterattack. If he parks a <6 CV units near my concentration, hey... I'd be fool not to use that 1:1 modifier So what looks like a "good Soviet player" is in fact just a guy doing his best to punish mistakes of his opponent. If the opponent is short on mistakes, there is nothing to punish.

And another point. Most accounts of Typhoon note that German units pre-blizzard were in pretty beaten up shape, spent and exhausted, with TOEs down to 50%, 40%, even 30%. How many times have you seen that in WITE? Germans usually get to blizz period with their divisional TOEs over 80% without problem. Of course, then there's this Godzilla blizzard monster to take care of that, with some contrived modifiers to make Sov supermen and all that, but we discussed it already...

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ORIGINAL: alfonso

Oleg, if I understand you correctly, you reasoning is as follows:

1. "As I, Oleg, won against 2ACR, I am a decent Soviet player"
2. "As I, Oleg, was badly defeated by Emil, that means that Soviets are doomed (because I am a decent player)"

Ok, yesterday I won against my wife playing chess, with the Black pieces. Therefore I am a decent chess player.
Today, playing with the black pieces, I have lost against Kasparov. That means that chess is broken (because I am a decent player), and White are Ubermenschen.

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ORIGINAL: Emir Agic

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ORIGINAL: alfonso

Oleg, if I understand you correctly, you reasoning is as follows:

1. "As I, Oleg, won against 2ACR, I am a decent Soviet player"
2. "As I, Oleg, was badly defeated by Emil, that means that Soviets are doomed (because I am a decent player)"

Ok, yesterday I won against my wife playing chess, with the Black pieces. Therefore I am a decent chess player.
Today, playing with the black pieces, I have lost against Kasparov. That means that chess is broken (because I am a decent player), and White are Ubermenschen.

First, there is interesting tendency for some people on this forum to change my name from Emir to Emil. Not that I am offended or something, but I wonder why?

Second, regarding your chess game analogy, I think more propriate example of Oleg reasoning will be situation like this:



White (Axis) is to move. There is possibility for mate in three turns (summer campagin). If white player (Axis) know what to do, black player (Soviets) can't do anything to stop him. Hence:

a) Some white players will be able to achieve mate in three turns. In this case they will win but not because black is good or bad player.
b) Some white players will not be able to achieve mate in three turns. In this case they will losse but, again, not because black is good or bad player.

In both cases, achievement of white player doesn't depend of black player ability, but it solely depends of white player (un)proficiency.

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ORIGINAL: alfonso

Well, if someone thinks that WITE is like a mate in 3 problem, which a computer could solve in less than one second, I would say that such an extraordinary afirmation needs extraordinary evidence.

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ORIGINAL: alfonso

(PD: as a matter of fact, if your example is a chess game, Black is lost even if White fails to find the mate in 3. But I get your point...)

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ORIGINAL: alfonso

Oleg, if I understand you correctly, you reasoning is as follows:

1. "As I, Oleg, won against 2ACR, I am a decent Soviet player"
2. "As I, Oleg, was badly defeated by Emil, that means that Soviets are doomed (because I am a decent player)"

Ok, yesterday I won against my wife playing chess, with the Black pieces. Therefore I am a decent chess player.
Today, playing with the black pieces, I have lost against Kasparov. That means that chess is broken (because I am a decent player), and White are Ubermenschen.

Well, there is another possibility. Perhaps I don't have the ability to stop Kasparov.... Perhaps I am not Kramnik.

Please note that this is a criticism of this specific argumentation, not about "supermanism" in general. I have not enough data on that to have an informed opinion. But you have read threads about how horribly the game is flawed because Germans cannot break through those impenetrable Russian Forts built instantly...so please don't consider the supermanism a self-evident truth.

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ORIGINAL: ComradeP

. Should you at some point decide to man up, I'd still be more than happy to show you just how "super" your German supermen are in a game with you as the Axis and me as the Soviets. Until that point, I'll just leave you to your own fantasies and focus my attention on the people actually trying to improve WitE, instead of the people wasting my time.

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

And another thing, I think most of you need an experience of playing a REAL GOOD German player in PBEM. Until you play a real German expert, and there are only a few currently in this community, you have no idea what Germans can really do, and how frustrating and helpless Soviets feel. Most of you never played real expert German in PBEM.

When you play a timid German, and you appear to stop him, it's easy to imagine you're being a "defensive genius" or something. It's most probably not you being defensive genius, just him being too timid. Go play Emir, or James or PDH and then see how much of a defensive genius you really are

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

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ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Should you at some point decide to man up, I'd still be more than happy to show you just how "super" your German supermen are in a game with you as the Axis and me as the Soviets. Until that point, I'll just leave you to your own fantasies and focus my attention on the people actually trying to improve WitE, instead of the people wasting my time.

Don't see how one can prove the Axis are supermen by playing as the Sovs.....

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ORIGINAL: Sabre21

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

And another thing, I think most of you need an experience of playing a REAL GOOD German player in PBEM. Until you play a real German expert, and there are only a few currently in this community, you have no idea what Germans can really do, and how frustrating and helpless Soviets feel. Most of you never played real expert German in PBEM.

When you play a timid German, and you appear to stop him, it's easy to imagine you're being a "defensive genius" or something. It's most probably not you being defensive genius, just him being too timid. Go play Emir, or James or PDH and then see how much of a defensive genius you really are

Well a very good German player should be whooping on a Soviet player of less skill. On the other hand a very good Soviet player will whoop on a German player of less skill, even in 41 prior to the blizzard.

Two players of equal skill, from my experience, it boils down to who makes the fewer mistakes. Germans obviously have the advantage in the summer of 41, as they historically did and should be pushing the Soviets back. As the late summer ensues and fall occurs, the Soviets should be picking up steam and slowing the German war machine and come blizzard set them back as they did historically.

This pretty much occurs in every aar I've seen and every game I've played as long as the players don't quit too early. The degree of how far one side or the other pushes is pretty much based on the skill of the players. There is a lot involved to this game and if a player takes the time to learn all the various mechanics and apply them will most likely overcome an opponent that does not. Of course each side makes mistakes and the German player in 41 can ill afford too many of these if he plans on trying to take Moscow, Leningrad, and Rostov.

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

In WITE we have two periods with HUGE advantages for one side in the first 9 months of the 41 GC.

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ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

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ORIGINAL: Sabre21

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

And another thing, I think most of you need an experience of playing a REAL GOOD German player in PBEM. Until you play a real German expert, and there are only a few currently in this community, you have no idea what Germans can really do, and how frustrating and helpless Soviets feel. Most of you never played real expert German in PBEM.

When you play a timid German, and you appear to stop him, it's easy to imagine you're being a "defensive genius" or something. It's most probably not you being defensive genius, just him being too timid. Go play Emir, or James or PDH and then see how much of a defensive genius you really are

Well a very good German player should be whooping on a Soviet player of less skill. On the other hand a very good Soviet player will whoop on a German player of less skill, even in 41 prior to the blizzard.

Two players of equal skill, from my experience, it boils down to who makes the fewer mistakes. Germans obviously have the advantage in the summer of 41, as they historically did and should be pushing the Soviets back. As the late summer ensues and fall occurs, the Soviets should be picking up steam and slowing the German war machine and come blizzard set them back as they did historically.

This pretty much occurs in every aar I've seen and every game I've played as long as the players don't quit too early. The degree of how far one side or the other pushes is pretty much based on the skill of the players. There is a lot involved to this game and if a player takes the time to learn all the various mechanics and apply them will most likely overcome an opponent that does not. Of course each side makes mistakes and the German player in 41 can ill afford too many of these if he plans on trying to take Moscow, Leningrad, and Rostov.

Thank you for posting

A question:
i read the aars, but i can´t follow your results.
my conclusions:
in summer 41 the axis can do a lot great things to push the russians, but with winter it doesn´t matter cause nothing counts. the russian can and will crush the axis defence line and throw back the axis with so high costs that the capability to come back in 42 for the axis (as they did) is not longer existing.

So - basically you are right about the axis summer advance (and untill blizzard it seems to work (even if some finetuning should slow down the axis advance a bit, if the russian player is better)), but with blizzard the histoical axis capabilities are gone. Also for 42.

Even very good axis player get kicked around by "average" russian players - so even russian side-players say it is singlesided in a pbem.

I hope, you and the other guys here will fix it, so i can order it. Mentally preordered i have, but this is - for me the no-go-problem. Maybe we find some (at the other side) in later parts of the game, but in the moment the blizzardthing sounds to serious for me.

Oh, i bet i will be a bad axis/russian player for a long time, but that doesn´t matter. Knowing it doesen´t matter ist the problem - so why should i try if it is use- and senseless, cause blizzard ruins it anyway.

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian

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ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Should you at some point decide to man up, I'd still be more than happy to show you just how "super" your German supermen are in a game with you as the Axis and me as the Soviets. Until that point, I'll just leave you to your own fantasies and focus my attention on the people actually trying to improve WitE, instead of the people wasting my time.

Don't see how one can prove the Axis are supermen by playing as the Sovs.....

Logically what you say makes perfect sense, Pieter and Aurelian. However I never claimed I am expert German player (or expert player of any side). In fact I claimed the contrary, that I am merely decent player even when you might think otherwise by looking at the map

You people need an experience of playing expert German to see to which degree an expert can (ab)use German might in this game. I don't feel I can provide the services of expert German player - yet. In the meantime, go find an expert German, be abused by him and come back to tell us about your esperience

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ORIGINAL: Sabre21

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ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

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ORIGINAL: Sabre21

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

And another thing, I think most of you need an experience of playing a REAL GOOD German player in PBEM. Until you play a real German expert, and there are only a few currently in this community, you have no idea what Germans can really do, and how frustrating and helpless Soviets feel. Most of you never played real expert German in PBEM.

When you play a timid German, and you appear to stop him, it's easy to imagine you're being a "defensive genius" or something. It's most probably not you being defensive genius, just him being too timid. Go play Emir, or James or PDH and then see how much of a defensive genius you really are

Well a very good German player should be whooping on a Soviet player of less skill. On the other hand a very good Soviet player will whoop on a German player of less skill, even in 41 prior to the blizzard.

Two players of equal skill, from my experience, it boils down to who makes the fewer mistakes. Germans obviously have the advantage in the summer of 41, as they historically did and should be pushing the Soviets back. As the late summer ensues and fall occurs, the Soviets should be picking up steam and slowing the German war machine and come blizzard set them back as they did historically.

This pretty much occurs in every aar I've seen and every game I've played as long as the players don't quit too early. The degree of how far one side or the other pushes is pretty much based on the skill of the players. There is a lot involved to this game and if a player takes the time to learn all the various mechanics and apply them will most likely overcome an opponent that does not. Of course each side makes mistakes and the German player in 41 can ill afford too many of these if he plans on trying to take Moscow, Leningrad, and Rostov.

Thank you for posting

A question:
i read the aars, but i can´t follow your results.
my conclusions:
in summer 41 the axis can do a lot great things to push the russians, but with winter it doesn´t matter cause nothing counts. the russian can and will crush the axis defence line and throw back the axis with so high costs that the capability to come back in 42 for the axis (as they did) is not longer existing.

So - basically you are right about the axis summer advance (and untill blizzard it seems to work (even if some finetuning should slow down the axis advance a bit, if the russian player is better)), but with blizzard the histoical axis capabilities are gone. Also for 42.

Even very good axis player get kicked around by "average" russian players - so even russian side-players say it is singlesided in a pbem.

I hope, you and the other guys here will fix it, so i can order it. Mentally preordered i have, but this is - for me the no-go-problem. Maybe we find some (at the other side) in later parts of the game, but in the moment the blizzardthing sounds to serious for me.

Oh, i bet i will be a bad axis/russian player for a long time, but that doesn´t matter. Knowing it doesen´t matter ist the problem - so why should i try if it is use- and senseless, cause blizzard ruins it anyway.

Well the Germans were in pretty tough shape by the end of November, primarily from a logistics perspective and were already suffering some pretty severe frostbite even prior to the Soviet counteroffensive. According to Guderian, once the Soviets began their attacks, the Germans started to get pushed back all along the front, and this is just in december prior to him getting relieved. He did make mention that they counterattacked when possible and in some cases were able to hold their ground, but in most cases they failed.

The point here being is that don't expect the Germans to stand up too well to a major Soviet offensive in the blizzard. How well though is still an ongoing debate on the tester forum and is getting tweaked and is constantly being looked at thanks to a lot of the input we have recived here on the public forum. It does take time to test it all out and we go thru testers pretty fast.

Andy

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ORIGINAL: Aurelian
One does not need to be an "expert" player if his srmy is made of supermen. As for being "abused", I lost twice as the Soviets. Not because the Axis were supermen, but because I played very badly.

Here's the thing. It is very, very, easy to claim that the Axis are supermen. But that is all it is, a claim. And until you step up and prove it, by playing ComradeP, (His experience at playing is meaningless as you claim that the Axis are supermen.), then that is all it would remain. A claim.

An empty one at that.

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One does not need to be an "expert" player if his srmy is made of supermen.

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ORIGINAL: ComradeP

There's a difference between trying to start a flame war, and trying to get you to actually prove your argument, which is what Aurelian, others and me are trying to do. I get frustrated because you dodge the bullet and your opinion changes with the majority view, which again illustrates how hollow it is.

Currently, you have an opinion, not an argument, and present it like an argument. The fact that you're a big fan of using hyperbole just shows how hollow your "argument"/opinion is. If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network. I don't come here to be confronted by the same kind of simplemindedness.

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ORIGINAL: squatter

"If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network."

Watch what you say, you pinko cheese eating surrender monkey eurofag. Fox news is the bomb. Glenn Beck tells it like it is. FACT.

I once watched European tv, and it was all "blah, blah, compromise, blah, dialogue, blah blah, debate" SCREW THAT!!!! Cut to the chase man! I want someone telling me LIKE IT IS!!! European news is only slightly less pointless than the UN.

You must either be from France, or somewhere else where they eat the back legs off amphibians.

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ORIGINAL: squatter

"If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network."

Watch what you say, you pinko cheese eating surrender monkey eurofag. Fox news is the bomb. Glenn Beck tells it like it is. FACT.

I once watched European tv, and it was all "blah, blah, compromise, blah, dialogue, blah blah, debate" SCREW THAT!!!! Cut to the chase man! I want someone telling me LIKE IT IS!!! European news is only slightly less pointless than the UN.

You must either be from France, or somewhere else where they eat the back legs off amphibians. 

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

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ORIGINAL: squatter

"If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network."

Watch what you say, you pinko cheese eating surrender monkey eurofag. Fox news is the bomb. Glenn Beck tells it like it is. FACT.

I once watched European tv, and it was all "blah, blah, compromise, blah, dialogue, blah blah, debate" SCREW THAT!!!! Cut to the chase man! I want someone telling me LIKE IT IS!!! European news is only slightly less pointless than the UN.

You must either be from France, or somewhere else where they eat the back legs off amphibians. 

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"If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network."

Watch what you say, you pinko cheese eating surrender monkey eurofag. Fox news is the bomb. Glenn Beck tells it like it is. FACT.

I once watched European tv, and it was all "blah, blah, compromise, blah, dialogue, blah blah, debate" SCREW THAT!!!! Cut to the chase man! I want someone telling me LIKE IT IS!!! European news is only slightly less pointless than the UN.

You must either be from France, or somewhere else where they eat the back legs off amphibians.

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What for you makes a key difference between "opinion" and "argument"?

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ORIGINAL: Senno

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Oleg, do you take Squatter seriously?

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

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ORIGINAL: Senno

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Oleg, do you take Squatter seriously?

I did my best to try to take him seriously but "amphibians" gave him away