RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/28/2012 7:56:41 PM

Numdydar

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After thinking about this some more, I wanted to elaborate on the production point I made in my OP.

The ability of the weaker side of the conflict to be able to change the priotities of what is important is one of the biggest factors in why playing Japan in WitP AE versus WitE as Germany. This gives the player a chance to see how changing the production levels of planes and engine types, accelerating different ship construction would have had on the war. So even though you know going in you are going to get defeated, you can at least see how your changes effected the outcome. So by getting certain planes earlier than the historical schedule, what impact would that have on the war?

In WitE, the opposite is true. The stronger side is handed this ability to change their mix of forces while the weaker side is on a fixed historical schedule. This would be like WitP AE the Japanese would have everything set historically, while the US could change it production at will. Not many people would think it would be fun to play Japan then. of course, there are plenty of topic on the WitP AE forums that gripe about the Allies not being able to increase troops/planes/ships if the Japanese does better than historically. Similar to what is discussed here in this forum with Germany being forced to react historically without having the historical triggers that casused these changes.

While this is very ahistorical with both games and on both sides, the only way to change this is to have the entire world represented, i.e. World at War, HoI series, DG's War in Europe, etc. As an example, Japan can capture all of China in WitP AE by late 42/early 43 simply by reducing the forces held against the Russians. Then many of these assests could then be transfered in Burma and invade India while a signicent increase in troops over the historical invasion. Would the British not react and send more troops? Or would they just keep what was there and hope for the best? If the larger scale conflict was modeled, then the player could make the stratigic decision about what to do. In bot WitP AE and WitE this type of reaction is unavailable.

But even if Japan did all of this, it would only slow the defeat not eliminate it as the game, just like WitE, there is not much the weaker side can do with a strating point in 12/42 and 6/41 respectively. Having the stronger side, Russia, be able to adjust it's forces avay from the historical production line, just makes playing Germany not a very fun experience. The stronger side gets stronger faster while the weaker side is stuck.

The reason I bring this up again is that with WitW in design, which I will buy

, once agin the weaker side will be stuck. At least, I hope anyway, that both side will have historical production. If the Allies can change there production, while a great test bed for WitW '39 or '36, once again German players will be on the short side of the stick. So two games in a row will feature German players forced to sit and just take it on the chin. I must cry foul.

So please try and throw SOMETHING to the German player that will allow them to at least to make some changes to there forces vurses screwing them again with a historical schedule. While starting in '43 will not be able have much of an impact, it will at least have some. Plus we can at least play a much better game of 'What If' as Germany than we can now. Otherwise make a kickass AI for Germany as I really cannot see much reason for a human to ever want to play them in either WitE or WitW.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/28/2012 8:20:01 PM

Flaviusx

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The freedom to build your own Red Army in this game is something of an illusion. I have it on good authority that nobody in this game has managed to build a Red Army as large as the historical one in terms of formations -- this suggests to me that the Soviet Union is rather AP starved.

From that standpoint the Soviets would actually be better off with a historical reinforcement schedule. Beyond that, in many respects the best Red Army you can build is remarkably close to the real one, and the game doesn't really reward you for trying to build a wildly ahistorical Red Army. Nor does it furnish you the AP budget to make such a thing to begin with.

The Axis, on the other hand, has ample APs to deal with their command issues (which are in any case trivial compared to the catastrophic Soviet one, which takes years to straighten out) build literally hundreds of fortified regions, and still stockpile hundreds of APs during large stretches of the war.

I'd happily trade in this Soviet "freedom" in exchange for AP free historical reinforcements and the ability to concentrate APs on operational issues rather than force construction. More and more I feel this entire idea to treat APs as a kind of universal game currency is a mistake. The traffic is more than they can bear. The model is extremely crude and simplistic and doing too many things that have no real relation to each other. Zhukov is indeed not worth 10 elves.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 4/28/2012 8:36:01 PM >

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/28/2012 8:25:49 PM

glvaca

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I have to agree with the points raised by TD & Flavius, as the Soviet, I find it very difficult to find troops to digin in depth as was done historically as he mentions.
And likelwise as the Sovs, you really don't have AP's to do much experimenting or even shift things around. Shifting 1 army can cost up to 50+ AP's!
Really, I'm not sure what the fuss is about!

< Message edited by glvaca -- 4/28/2012 8:42:58 PM >

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/28/2012 11:16:21 PM

hfarrish

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I second all these points. I always play Soviet and I've never felt like I ha some amazing advantage. Quite honestly from a general playability standpoint I would PREFER a historical replacement schedule - the game is a monster as is without having to deal with that for 180 turns. I know there are many who have a lot more time on their hands though. Again, I guess something where optionality would be a plus.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/29/2012 11:14:14 AM

Meteor2

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The comparison between WITE and WitPAE is an interessting one and I agree, that playing Japan, even if its defeat is garanteed, is far more attractive.
And there, by the way, the unplausible outcome of the Midway battle, does not mean, that the lost japanese carriers are removed from the game, if Midway had not happened.
IMHO it was a bad start, that the devs of WITE had not heard, what a lot of there customers wished from the very beginning... The possibliity to produce equipment and ship it
to certain units. In WITE Germany is bound to tracks and there are very few possibilities to leave them. Blizzard is hard coded, but Stalins orders to fight everywhere along the whole front are not coded. Historically the red army fought westward in different counterstrokes in 1941, if I remember correctly.
Runing east was not a option for Stalin, but there is no penalty for the russian side in the game to disobey these orders. A different level of freedom for both game opponents.
At the end, WITE "feels" not right, as far as I can say.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/29/2012 3:03:22 PM

Panzeh

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One of the problems, I think, in WitE is the low level of variance in the combat. In WitP you can get lucky and catch TFs unaware, and generally have give-and-take battles where even the weaker side can eke out victories. If WitP were all land combat, it would be terrible, just look at China. China is weak and can't hang on, which historically they were able to do. Instead their army is locked, basically by predjudices about Ichi-Go.

WitE is all bulldozer action. They have no suspense in the land battles, either one side is bulldozing, or the other side is bulldozing. If the Soviets had to fight in 1941 it wouldn't fix anything, it would just make it really boring to play, because nothing they do in combat matters since their combat values are so poor. They can't even hurt the Germans appreciably before the blizzard. Then the Blizzard, a low-jack solution lets them fight again for a little bit, then the Germans get their last push against poor CV Soviets before they proceed to get steamrolled for the rest of the game. It's a boring formula.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/29/2012 4:11:02 PM

Flaviusx

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The combat model is incredibly variable, actually, and has been known to drive people crazy as a result. At the tactical level weird and unexpected things happen.

That being said, at the operational level and up...yeah. I've long thought the game system is highly biased in favor of the offense.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/29/2012 4:44:00 PM

sj80

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I play WITE and WITPAE as Axis, but at the moment WITE with a greater intensity.
Playing the Japs in AE is definitly more fun than Germany in WITE. The reason is simple: The player has the free choice. You can control everything and increase your combat power (pilot training, aircraft production, industry management,...). The weaker side has in AE a real chance to change history, thats how fun is defined.
In WITE everything is fix, you will have historical withdrawels, no production control ... all discussed in the forums.
WITE has a closed front line from north to south. AE consists of several areas (china, Rangoon, Northern Australia, Pacific islands, ...) Within these areas the Japs can have local superiority in mid/late war with Kido Butai (Jap carrier fleet) and enough land based aircraft. In WITE the Germans don't have such option after the game shifts towards Sovjet side. Every Sovjet human player will shift his forces to react to German panzers. Best example is the 1943 Kursk offensive ... 80% of the units are frozen at scenario start to have a chance to create local superiority for some weeks.

WITE is much younger than WITP(AE) and we will see WITW 43-45 in future with many new game mechanics (better air war, ...). But I think WITW won't be much fun for the German side. Production control for Germany? I don't think we will get this. Better air war? I don't think Germany will have a suplus from it with 1 Messerschmitt against 100 Mustangs. Switch map units to SU and back? I have only read this about some USA Cav. Local superiority like in the Ardennes? Not possible in a game with a closed front line and against overwhelming forces ... So I don't expect much fun for the German side in WITW.
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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/29/2012 5:01:48 PM

Aurelian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

. Blizzard is hard coded, but Stalins orders to fight everywhere along the whole front are not coded. Historically the red army fought westward in different counterstrokes in 1941, if I remember correctly.
Runing east was not a option for Stalin, but there is no penalty for the russian side in the game to disobey these orders. A different level of freedom for both game opponents.
At the end, WITE "feels" not right, as far as I can say.

Hitler's orders are not hard coded either. Yes, the Red Army did launch counterstrokes, when the Germans gave them openings. Something no competent Axis player would do. Nor is there any penalty for the German ignoring Hitler's "Where a German soldier stands he will not retreat" order. Or taking Leningrad against orders.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 4:04:16 AM

gradenko2k

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EDIT: I'd also like to put forward the idea that WITP's Japanese endgame is more interesting than WITE's German endgame in terms of being able to deliver bloody noses and stinging (albeit temporary) defeats to the monster bearing down on you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
The freedom to build your own Red Army in this game is something of an illusion. I have it on good authority that nobody in this game has managed to build a Red Army as large as the historical one in terms of formations -- this suggests to me that the Soviet Union is rather AP starved.

Doesn't this imply that the historical Red Army isn't "optimal" in the context of WITE?

< Message edited by gradenko_2000 -- 4/30/2012 4:06:23 AM >

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 6:20:57 AM

vicberg

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Doesn't matter if the red army can be built to historical or not. The game can be effectively over by 42 and an exercise in mouse clicks until 43, maybe 44. The german army is also not historical after the first blizzard. The Soviet ability to NOT stand and fight is not historical. History has nothing to do with this.

Japanese can effectively "win" WITPAE. Though there is no time limit on the game, a 46 victory by the Allies is considered a victory by the Japanese. There's a couple of AARs going on where it's looking like the Allies won't be able to come anywhere close to historical in 45. In part because of multiple bloody noses over the course of the war.

I think the key is that the underdogs have been given a greater ability to influence the course of the war in WITPAE. Soviets have more control (to a debatable degree) in WITE.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 9:59:34 AM

janh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000
Doesn't this imply that the historical Red Army isn't "optimal" in the context of WITE?

Was it "optimal" in its original context? Or is this just a matter of hindsight again?

This is a good discussion. I would more or less agree with anything Numdydar said. And would hope that the devs will bring (back) some of the features that make WitP-AE such an intriguing game despite its monstrosity (or some of the same things that were already in G&G WiR).

In my opinion, were not the AI of WitE so much better than that in AE, the replay value of AE was (and perhaps even is) a lot higher. Just because you can make early adjustments to production, R&D or strategy and defensive deployments and hold tight until the later years, hoping that any change will effect at least a little something.
On the one hand, if the AI were dynamically scripted/able and a a bit better, I would rather wish they adapt that monster to the European context, but on the other, playing Europe at that detail level with 1 day turns... whoah, never going to finish -- they are right that's over the top. Maybe 4 days turns would be best, 10mile hexes, and preferably we-go instead of i-go-u-go. Let's see where they head for with WiEurope...

< Message edited by janh -- 4/30/2012 10:00:34 AM >

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 12:23:32 PM

gradenko2k

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What I was getting at was that while the structure and composition may have worked in terms of IRL, maybe it wasn't the best possible structure and composition in terms of how WITE specifically works, and so being unable to re-create it in WITE isn't exactly something that we should be aiming for in the first place.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 2:11:58 PM

misesfan

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Are people stating that the Soviets ability to create SU's and/or whole formations (let alone their ability to combine divisions into corps level single counter units) are functionally underwhelming? Well, in my opinion, it definitely makes one side more 'fun' to play than the other. Using a plethora of AP's to shuffle around support units or to create a few forts or to tweak leader placement is not really fun for the Germans - more like an exercise in futility. The fact that he Soviets can add Support Units, or create new formations, and heaven help us, combine divisions into extremely hard-hitting corps level units is fun. Corps level cavalry in Dec is the tip of the iceberg in which each hex of an attack will be able to hold army size groups of men an material quickly grinding the Wehrmacht to dust.

And no, being on the receiving end of this is not fun. Like most people, I play the Soviets now pretty exclusively, it is funner side to play (even in 1941....)

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 2:57:28 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pwieland

Are people stating that the Soviets ability to create SU's and/or whole formations (let alone their ability to combine divisions into corps level single counter units) are functionally underwhelming?

That's exactly what I'm stating. You just don't have the APs to be very creative here. In the end, you're scrambling to be as cost effective as possible with them and this severely limits your choices.

In the end, I'd rather have a a historical reinforcement schedule and full operational freedom the way the Axis does. The Axis is many times more cost effective than the Soviet Union is in terms of APs, because it gets 5/6 the amount of APs the Soviets do per turn and only has to do a limited number of things with them.

I'm also doubting that APs as a game currency make any sense at all once they assume too many disparate functions. Force creation ought to have nothing at all to do with command and control. It should have its own distinct model and not be lumped together with everything else.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 4:04:01 PM

misesfan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

That's exactly what I'm stating. You just don't have the APs to be very creative here. In the end, you're scrambling to be as cost effective as possible with them and this severely limits your choices.

In the end, I'd rather have a a historical reinforcement schedule and full operational freedom the way the Axis does. The Axis is many times more cost effective than the Soviet Union is in terms of APs, because it gets 5/6 the amount of APs the Soviets do per turn and only has to do a limited number of things with them.

I'm also doubting that APs as a game currency make any sense at all once they assume too many disparate functions. Force creation ought to have nothing at all to do with command and control. It should have its own distinct model and not be lumped together with everything else.

So basically you are saying that Germany's inability to customize its formations is an advantage because of the amount of AP's it does receive in comparison to the SU. When you are playing the Axis in 1942 getting steamrolled by three mechanized corps per hex, but still have 400 AP's to spend, I dont think its much of an issue.

You may be right about everything you are asserting, but in the end - its more fun to play the Soviets than it is to play the Germans, at least to me. The ability to customize their forces as the need arises is one big reason why.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 4:44:44 PM

Flaviusx

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I'm guessing you aren't doing PBEM, Pwieland.

In the single player game, the Soviet Union probably has more replayability and may be more fun. The AI doesn't stress your APs the way a human opponent does.

In PBEM, force construction is just a headache.

The Soviet AI cheats so far as APs go, btw. It's not anywhere near as constrained as a human is and can spam units. You're not going to get steamrolled by zounds of mechanized corps in 1942 in PBEM. These things are serious AP hogs and take a long time to get up to speed. A single Mech corps costs 35 APs to build, not including attachments. (15 APs for the three brigades, and 20 more to flip them over.) The per turn Soviet budget is 60 APs.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 5:22:18 PM

misesfan

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Heh - I have noticed people on these forums always ask whether someone is doing PBM when making a critique on balance or some other aspect of the game. I have played PBM - almost exclusively on the German side. Hopefully that answers your question. Whether its applicable or not, well - I havent played PBM for a bit, and really have no inclination to play PBM in this game nowadays. I still like the game, playing as the SU, but my time is worth more than committing myself to a game that is fundamentally unbalanced when playing PvP.

You state that the AI doesnt stretch the ability of a human player to use AP in a realistic manner. That may be true. But its also irrelevant. Germany lacks the flexibility to do anything with the APs they are given beyond 1941 when HQ buildups can be used during the big offensive operations. The Soviet Union not only has the same set of functions the Germans do - but they can create new units, create new SU's, and combine units into larger formations. On a gaming level - having more options is fun.

I have been purposely avoiding the realism debate, because thats a slippery slope of what if's and conjecture. I would say that simulating the Red Army by giving it a higher degree of flexibility into their force composition than the Wehrmacht is ahistorical. My two cents at least.

In gaming though, when one side is given more options within a system than the other, its inevitable that this side will be the favored one to play. Its inevitable.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 5:50:38 PM

heliodorus04

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Flavius, as much as you've played the game, you have demonstrated absolutely zero ability to understand how a German player can improve his force by using APs. You are blind.

If the German AP cost to move a division to another HQ were costed the same as for the Soviets (who pay one fifth to one-seventh the cost to do the same function), that alone would improve the German ability to have fun. I know, I've done it, I've seen the results. You obviously have not, and I challenge you to play a game with Germany getting basically 200 AP a turn to see what you can do with your first year of the campaign.

I would gladly play anyone a game where the Soviet had to deal with a historic reinforcement schedule as does the German. You have no idea how the German game works, obviously.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 6:47:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
You are correct and a very good point. WitPAE is, as you point out, version 2.0 of the original WitP. But is not this WitE version 2.0 of the original WitE?

Not quite. To make a comparison:

Pacific War -> War in the Pacific -> War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition
War in Russia -> War in the East -> We're-not-here-yet

Missed a couple there:
War in Russia (1984)==>Second Front (1990)==>Gary Grigsby's War in Russia (1993)==>Gary Grigsby's War in the East (2010)

That's okay, he also missed War in the South Pacific (1986)

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 7:07:30 PM

johnnyvagas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
You are correct and a very good point. WitPAE is, as you point out, version 2.0 of the original WitP. But is not this WitE version 2.0 of the original WitE?

Not quite. To make a comparison:

Pacific War -> War in the Pacific -> War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition
War in Russia -> War in the East -> We're-not-here-yet

Missed a couple there:
War in Russia (1984)==>Second Front (1990)==>Gary Grigsby's War in Russia (1993)==>Gary Grigsby's War in the East (2010)

That's okay, he also missed War in the South Pacific (1986)

...And South Pacific (1958)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgzvTHsOxSQ

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 7:16:58 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Japan will never ever conquer the continental US. And that's where the astronomical quantity of materiel and manpower comes from

Once this materiel and men are gathered, nothing -repeat- nothing can stop the US. Not to mention the A-bomb, which is available to drop a) at certain date, and b) if you are at x hexes from Japan.

You don't expect to defeat the allies. Sink as many CVs as you can... the allies only have to get to the Marianas Islands or the Kurils though: A-bomb dropped, game over...

Therefore an utter Japanese victory is a pipe dream. Period.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 7:28:12 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Oh, and yes, the Japanese have lots of toys (industry). This does not make any difference LOL

So if you think being able to play with German industry should allow you to achieve an utter victory... er, I see where you're heading

In WitP AE only one thing can save the Japanese: Charly the Clown in charge of the mighty allied land, air, naval hordes...

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 4/30/2012 7:31:13 PM >

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 8:12:46 PM

misesfan

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I dont think the OP was talking about balance. It was about which side was more fun to play (at least how I read it). In its current form, Germany is not as fun to play as the Soviets. The Soviets have many more choices and more flexibility with their OOB than the Germans. Thus, the preferred side playing WITE is the Red Army. I think its fairly obvious, but perhaps I am mistaken.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 9:01:15 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pwieland

The Soviets have many more choices and more flexibility with their OOB than the Germans.

They really don't. It only looks that way.

Here's a simple exercise: sit down at the end of a game and compare your custom made Red Army to the one in the 1944 scenario. The stock Red Army might actually be better. (Its command and control will be a mess, mind you, but that's because the scenario was designed before the nerfs to Soviet command limits. But so far as actual formations go, it may well be better than yours.)

A lot of folks struggle to build a Red Army as good as that stock one (and it's a pretty good blueprint of what you should shoot for.) Especially in PBEM.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 10:12:27 PM

AFV

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I fail to see how anyone can argue that getting reinforcements on a set timetable is more fun than building your own army.
Screw which one is better, that is irrelevent to this discussion. The OP was referring to the�fun factor.

There is a reason why more people prefer playing the Soviet side in this game. We may all have slightly different reasons, but they basically boil down to enjoyment, or, the fun factor.

Its a game. The current game has very little replayability value, because very few options are offered up. WITPAE has a much greater replayability value, but then again, its a much more mature game and comparing WITE to it, at this stage, is not fair.

I also have an issue with many people here regarding the "what if" factor. In every other wargame I have ever played, the whole effin point of the game was a "what if"- what if one side had done this, or that, would it have changed the outcome? Can I do something better, can I outsmart my opponent, etc. Discussions regarding this game come down to if� one side suggests anything that does not strengthen the odds of a�Soviet steamroller in 1944 then its heresy, and�they need to be burned at the cross.

Again, years from now, when this game consists of 90% of us playing the Soviet side vs the AI, and a dead forum, no one wanting to play the Axis side, do not be surprised. But, you can look at the 1944 Soviet steamroller and say "yeah, but we got that".

< Message edited by AFV -- 4/30/2012 10:13:11 PM >

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 56

RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 10:49:22 PM

hfarrish

Posts: 734
Joined: 1/3/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV

I fail to see how anyone can argue that getting reinforcements on a set timetable is more fun than building your own army.
Screw which one is better, that is irrelevent to this discussion. The OP was referring to the�fun factor.

I tend to think of building divisions and artillery brigades and managing the APs to do so as a chore, not "fun." I guess we all have different definitions, however.

(in reply to AFV)

Post #: 57

RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 10:55:35 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV

Again, years from now, when this game consists of 90% of us playing the Soviet side vs the AI, and a dead forum, no one wanting to play the Axis side, do not be surprised.

Yep. Just like WitP/WiTP-AE.

Oh...... wait. People actually do still play either PBEM.

And that forum isn't dead. Or have people giving grief because the Allies can't do their production like the Japanese can.

Then again, last time I played WiTP, I couldn't build those dozen Yamato class battleships I wanted. Or convert them. Or build more than 1 Taiho class carrier either. Planes, sure.

And the person I played *wanted* to play the Allies. Go figure.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to AFV)

Post #: 58

RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 11:23:44 PM

heliodorus04

Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV

I fail to see how anyone can argue that getting reinforcements on a set timetable is more fun than building your own army.
Screw which one is better, that is irrelevent to this discussion. The OP was referring to the�fun factor.

There is a reason why more people prefer playing the Soviet side in this game. We may all have slightly different reasons, but they basically boil down to enjoyment, or, the fun factor.

Its a game. The current game has very little replayability value, because very few options are offered up. WITPAE has a much greater replayability value, but then again, its a much more mature game and comparing WITE to it, at this stage, is not fair.

I also have an issue with many people here regarding the "what if" factor. In every other wargame I have ever played, the whole effin point of the game was a "what if"- what if one side had done this, or that, would it have changed the outcome? Can I do something better, can I outsmart my opponent, etc. Discussions regarding this game come down to if� one side suggests anything that does not strengthen the odds of a�Soviet steamroller in 1944 then its heresy, and�they need to be burned at the cross.

Again, years from now, when this game consists of 90% of us playing the Soviet side vs the AI, and a dead forum, no one wanting to play the Axis side, do not be surprised. But, you can look at the 1944 Soviet steamroller and say "yeah, but we got that".

Playing the German versus the AI can still be fun, if you overlook the problems with the air war, and tweak both sides settings to taste.

"Fun" alone would be giving the German the ability to create its own SUs.
Among the many things Sovie-o-phile players overlook is that they can tailor make their army for the right kinds of odds shift in this combat engine.

Giving Germany the ability to avoid crap SUs, and channel your armaments where the engine gives you advantages - that's both fun and advantageous to the side that has the ability, and suq/disadvantaging to the side that doesn't. And when the engine changes to make one SU less good, and another one better, you can adapt. Only the Soviet has this capacity in this game. It is moronic to ignore both the fun, and the advantage, that this conveys to that side.

And there's a lot of 'moronic' to go around for the apologists of this design. It will live to haunt the next title.

_____________________________

(in reply to AFV)

Post #: 59

RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 4/30/2012 11:29:34 PM

misesfan

Posts: 73
Joined: 3/15/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

They really don't. It only looks that way.

Here's a simple exercise: sit down at the end of a game and compare your custom made Red Army to the one in the 1944 scenario. The stock Red Army might actually be better. (Its command and control will be a mess, mind you, but that's because the scenario was designed before the nerfs to Soviet command limits. But so far as actual formations go, it may well be better than yours.)

A lot of folks struggle to build a Red Army as good as that stock one (and it's a pretty good blueprint of what you should shoot for.) Especially in PBEM.

You are comparing the Red Army (game) to Red Army (actual). That's not what is being argued, unless I am missing the point entirely. The point is, the Wehrmacht does not possess the ability to have this kind of flexibility which the Red Army enjoys throughout the game.

I mean really, do you think that the Germans are as much to fun to play as the Russians - even given the challenging aspect of the contest?

(in reply to Flaviusx)

Post #: 60