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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:02:14 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

I'm sorry, but this seems inconsistent. You yourself claim that each game is different and is priced accordingly, and that your stable of games runs the gamut from incredibly complex and pricey to accessible for newcomers and relatively cheap. In short, you already admit that you place a differing value on each of your games.

An incredibly important point.

Command is not £65/$80 USD/$90 CAD because of any imposed expense. It did not cost more to develop than Battle Academy, or Panzer Corps. I suspect it cost far less, based on the developers saying it was done more for love than for money.

So £65/$80 USD/$90 CAD is a completely artificial price, based on what Matrix feels the market will bear. And they're seeing a lot of their community vocally take a pass.

The sad thing, as you have also said, is that there is a very great chance that Matrix could be making more profit if they reduced the price, but Iain has made it quite clear that will never, ever happen. And this tunnel vision impedes the future.

Again, I would care not for how Matrix is run...if it was not inexorably linked to the future of the hobby we all love. But it is, and that's why I keep persisting here.

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 511
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:16:12 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

In the end because of a lack of competition you're going to have to make a decision. Pay up and take what is served up to you or say no. Simple as that. Don't expect it to get better. With a shrinking fan base the next title will probably be twice as much.


QFT.

The fewer there are in the hobby the higher the price is going to be. Just to maintain the same (or less) profit.

Anyone interested in the subject material of Command, but never having PC wargamed before, will baulk at a £65/$80 USD/$90 CAD price. Not to mention the number of people here from the community saying thanks but no thanks.

(in reply to sfbaytf)
Post #: 512
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:23:29 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

The last game from Matrix I bought off the shelf was Uncommon Valor. Haven't seen any wargame in store shelves since.


LMAO, as that was also the last one for me. EB Games, back when it was Electronic Boutique in Canada.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 513
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:26:37 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pii

quote:

I know some developers who have done ok out of it and others who have really suffered and only sold games when at 80%+ discounts.


So? Maybe their game sucked and wasn't worth the full price. One thing Steam has and I use EVERYTIME I'm thinking of buying is a link to a forum where members can let you know if a game is good or bad. That isn't good for developers that make bad games.

They also have Metacritic scores and links, which I find very handy as a "first guide".

(in reply to Pii)
Post #: 514
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:29:22 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kaburke61

(For Pii and the gang complaining (didn't quote - sorry))

My God, then just LEAVE....point has been taken (and taken.....and taken.....and taken).

If what you're trying to accomplish is something similar to the "Peng challenge thread"...congrats!


Or, and I most respectfully and soberly suggest this, if a thread entitled "RE: Pricing Suggestion" is annoying you then you could always be the one to depart.

(in reply to kaburke61)
Post #: 515
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:31:38 AM   
Tomn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JDM

Well Tomn what I can say is that if you are serious about your writing career, and want to get out of your medical job we are always looking for good fiction writers for our game manuals, trouble is if we drop our prices to far we might not be able to afford you!!



Alas! You have guessed at my secret plan! Thinking that the lowering of prices would result in increased revenue for you and thus a greater budget for writers such as myself, I sought with might and main to convince you to reduce prices - but you have penetrated my trickery, and so I am undone! Woe, woe, woe!

In all seriousness, though, while we disagree, and disagree strongly on the question of pricing, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't be able to disagree amicably. I'll press my point to the limit of my abilities, and I fully expect you (or anyone else!) to do the same right back at me, and in the course of our debate we might both see things that both of us had not seen before and so come to a fuller understanding of the whole situation - one which, I hope, will eventually culminate in your seeing how lowered prices could indeed improve overall revenue if distributed in the right channels, and which I imagine you in turn hope will result in me seeing that I've not got a leg to stand on. Long live debate and discussion, that's what I say, and we can't have that if we're sniping at each other. No hard feelings, eh?

(in reply to JDM)
Post #: 516
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:31:47 AM   
Terminus


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It became annoying after 17 pages of a small group of people repeating the same arguments over and over and over and over and over again. Price isn't going to change, and the publisher doesn't have to explain themselves to anybody on this forum. The end.

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(in reply to dutchman55555)
Post #: 517
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:40:24 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

I saw that, was just saying.


Ahhh, the word trust confused me :)

Not hard sometimes to be that way.


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Post #: 518
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:42:12 AM   
K 19

 

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The game is worth what people are willing to pay for it. I for one don't think Command is too expensive due to the fact that there are years and years worth of replayability in it. And it's a really polished product so far (except for the lagging). I am also hopeful the developers will continue support of this game for some time, like was done with WITP AE.

If one realizes just how expensive everything else is these days (just look at monthly health insurance payments for a family of four!), then this great game really doesn't cost that much. It's cheap entertainment. I would rather pay more money for one great game like this one than the same amount for three or four crappy ones. But I guess people will complain no matter what. That's what they do.

(in reply to smudge56)
Post #: 519
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:45:30 AM   
Tomn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It became annoying after 17 pages of a small group of people repeating the same arguments over and over and over and over and over again. Price isn't going to change, and the publisher doesn't have to explain themselves to anybody on this forum. The end.


If you think that's bad, imagine how those of us arguing for a price decrease must feel given that we too are consistently facing the same arguments (which we have developed counter-arguments for) and which are for all that repeatedly thrown out despite being repeatedly countered. The problem I think isn't really that the same arguments are being used, exactly, but rather that both sides just aren't listening to anything the other is saying. If we could actually have a proper debate and discussion about the matter instead of trying to shout down whoever happens to oppose us, I think we'll see that the thread of argument will advance considerably. I at least have tried my best to contribute to that, and I certainly hope nobody thinks I've been trying to shout anyone down. I confess that some of my posts may have seemed a bit too intimidating and effort-intensive to respond to, but believe me, that's not out of any desire to simply quash debate - I just believe in being as detailed and thorough as I can be when making my point, to try and pre-emptively respond to any objections I can think of.

I do agree that the publishers have no need nor obligation to respond to anything anyone says, but I don't see why this should prevent anyone from having their say, nor indeed why it should necessarily prevent the publishers from responding if they so will it. After all, technically speaking, nobody has much obligation to say anything to anyone outside of work, so why should the lack of obligation get in the way of doing something which seems worth doing? As for the price not changing...well, we live in hope that our efforts might one day bring about change, eh?

< Message edited by Tomn -- 9/27/2013 12:46:37 AM >

(in reply to Terminus)
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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:46:31 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It became annoying after 17 pages of a small group of people repeating the same arguments over and over and over and over and over again. Price isn't going to change, and the publisher doesn't have to explain themselves to anybody on this forum. The end.


If only...:)

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(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 521
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:48:28 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

The game does have a high cost.....but has anyone looked at Battlefront prices.  Their not cheap. 


They're not cheap, but Battlefront will discount (not put on sale, but actually lower the price permanently) after 12-18 months. Often multiple times.

Anyone reading this knows that it will take a minimum of 3-4 years (and probably closer to 5-7) for Command to go on sale. On sale.

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)
Post #: 522
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 12:56:35 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33

Why is this thread still open?

If you think the price is set too high. You are wrong. Matrix have been in this business for a long time and I think they have the sales data to support their pricing structure or they would be out of business a long time ago.

If it's more than you can afford now. Save some money and get it later. Maybe you'll get lucky and there would be a sale or coupon.

If you can afford it and are on the fence. Wait a bit and watch some of the videos and read some of the AAR and reviews. Then make your decision.

Discussion closed.

A new PC wargamer, interested in Combined Operations, is lured by marketing for Command. It seems like the game he has always dreamed of. He then sees a price of $90 and walks away, never to learn more about the hobby.

Discussion open.

(in reply to Wiz33)
Post #: 523
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:02:23 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

I do agree that the publishers have no need nor obligation to respond to anything anyone says, but I don't see why this should prevent anyone from having their say, nor indeed why it should necessarily prevent the publishers from responding if they so will it.


People have had their say. And the publishers have responded. But if you look at the other threads, they have answered all the concerns.

How many times are they to reply to the same things? Going in circles may work for some, but they do have better things to do.

Claims get made that if they do this, then this will happen. But those claims do not survive critical thinking as they have *nothing* to back those up with. You can't tell a company that they don't know what they're doing when they have years of market analysis, growth, and sales that show that they *do* know exactly what they are doing.



_____________________________

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(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 524
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:04:04 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: JDM

Tomn you seem like a particularly inciteful chap, particularly well informed about business practices. In the context of this thread I would be interested on your take on this article http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups


I believe I can say without any of my usual reservation that everyone here will heartily condemn anyone who thinks it'd be a good idea to send death threats to Matrix Games or the devs. Just not on, that.

And I'm extremely curious as to why anyone thinks that's a possibility here, let alone a probability.

Have there been such death threats? Or are you worried about them? If not, why post the link?

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 525
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:05:56 AM   
K 19

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wiz33

Why is this thread still open?

If you think the price is set too high. You are wrong. Matrix have been in this business for a long time and I think they have the sales data to support their pricing structure or they would be out of business a long time ago.

If it's more than you can afford now. Save some money and get it later. Maybe you'll get lucky and there would be a sale or coupon.

If you can afford it and are on the fence. Wait a bit and watch some of the videos and read some of the AAR and reviews. Then make your decision.

Discussion closed.

A new PC wargamer, interested in Combined Operations, is lured by marketing for Command. It seems like the game he has always dreamed of. He then sees a price of $90 and walks away, never to learn more about the hobby.

Discussion open.


The more mainstream games like these become, the more dumbed-down and unrealistic they become due to large numbers of casual players (the majority) pressuring and influencing the developers through complaints to simplify / make the game easier- aka 'dumbing down'. I've seen it happen too many times before. No thank you.

(in reply to dutchman55555)
Post #: 526
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:06:01 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JRyan

Oh and by the way, my wife was so glad it came out because she was tired of hearing about it. Maybe that would help in the future? I mean she wanted me to get a laptop and I refused until it was released. She thinks she won...hehe

Funny, when I told my wife there was a sharp, short of intake of breath. Followed by me saying "I know, right?"

(in reply to JRyan)
Post #: 527
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:17:58 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It became annoying after 17 pages of a small group of people repeating the same arguments over and over and over and over and over again. Price isn't going to change, and the publisher doesn't have to explain themselves to anybody on this forum. The end.

Again, with the most respect I can muster, you know where the door is. Let the small group of people mutter amongst themselves, what is it to you?

Again, this is far less to do with the price than it is to do with how the price will affect the hobby, now and in the future. If you don't see that, more power to you...I just don't see why you're here, then.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 528
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:21:16 AM   
Tomn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

I do agree that the publishers have no need nor obligation to respond to anything anyone says, but I don't see why this should prevent anyone from having their say, nor indeed why it should necessarily prevent the publishers from responding if they so will it.


People have had their say. And the publishers have responded. But if you look at the other threads, they have answered all the concerns.

How many times are they to reply to the same things? Going in circles may work for some, but they do have better things to do.

Claims get made that if they do this, then this will happen. But those claims do not survive critical thinking as they have *nothing* to back those up with. You can't tell a company that they don't know what they're doing when they have years of market analysis, growth, and sales that show that they *do* know exactly what they are doing.


This is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about, really. The argument goes in circles because the insistence is that "You've already been answered, and answered in such a way that you can't argue back, so why don't you just shut up now?" Yet we do NOT feel that our points have been answered adequately, nor that the reasoning put forward is flawless, and any attempts to point out any such holes in reasoning that we see is generally met by a response such as the one above: "You've already been answered, shut up." Is it any surprise under such circumstances that the discussion goes in circles instead of advancing?

As for the claim that nobody expect Matrix has anything approaching proof, well, I do realize it's a bit of an imposition upon your time, but I would ask that you look over my posts in greater detail - I try to explain why there are really a great many reasons and much evidence suggesting my point of view. If you insist, I can summarize them again in a new post, but I warn you that you would only be perpetuating the cycle unless you're willing to engage with that summary as it is instead of blowing it off as "Answered already, shut up." And as for the argument that it is impossible to tell Matrix that they might be doing something wrong, well, consider this thought exercise: If Matrix decided next week that their new cheapest price for any of their games would be in the millions of dollars, and that their highest price would be in the billions, do you think it would be right to object, protest, and point out why this is a bad idea, or do you think that, as they have years of experience and so on, they should know very well what they are doing and that it is impossible that they should be wrong on the matter? I think it's difficult to claim that the community would simply allow them to walk away from such a move! Their years of experience does not make them immune to error (as indeed nobody is), and if we believe they are making a mistake, why should we not speak up, and argue our point as best we can?

You seem to be arguing, as well, that the fact of their survival is proof positive that they've made no mistakes. Granted, their current course is a very safe one, but it also seems highly restrictive and limiting - there is no contradiction in saying that "Matrix is doing well now" and saying "Matrix could be doing much better if they changed." Simple survival, as we can see, is no proof against the error of leaving money on the table.

(in reply to Aurelian)
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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:22:04 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: K 19
The more mainstream games like these become, the more dumbed-down and unrealistic they become due to large numbers of casual players (the majority) pressuring and influencing the developers through complaints to simplify / make the game easier- aka 'dumbing down'. I've seen it happen too many times before. No thank you.

Which explains why Paradox, with their complex games, isn't on Steam.

Oh.

Wait...

(in reply to K 19)
Post #: 530
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:28:51 AM   
Mad Russian


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I guess what escapes me in all this is that this discussion seems to have been held multiple times. With both sides presenting the same or similar arguments.

What makes you think presenting the same material over and over is going to get you a different result? This goes for either side.

The big difference is that Matrix sets whatever price they like and we either pay it or we don't.

Good Hunting.

MR

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(in reply to dutchman55555)
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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:32:26 AM   
Rob322

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

I guess what escapes me in all this is that this discussion seems to have been held multiple times. With both sides presenting the same or similar arguments.

What makes you think presenting the same material over and over is going to get you a different result? This goes for either side.

The big difference is that Matrix sets whatever price they like and we either pay it or we don't.

Good Hunting.

MR


Yup, that's very clear.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 532
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:34:38 AM   
kaburke61

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

quote:

ORIGINAL: K 19
The more mainstream games like these become, the more dumbed-down and unrealistic they become due to large numbers of casual players (the majority) pressuring and influencing the developers through complaints to simplify / make the game easier- aka 'dumbing down'. I've seen it happen too many times before. No thank you.

Which explains why Paradox, with their complex games, isn't on Steam.

Oh.

Wait...


OH please....complex like "Naval War: Arctic Circle", yea, that was a masterpiece! Such support!

LOL

(in reply to dutchman55555)
Post #: 533
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:37:09 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

What makes you think presenting the same material over and over is going to get you a different result? This goes for either side.

Some would say it's the very definition of insanity.

I prefer to think of it this way:

Just what makes that little old ant
Think he'll move that rubber tree plant?
Anyone knows an ant, can't
Move a rubber tree plant!

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 534
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:39:08 AM   
dutchman55555

 

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Joined: 4/21/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kaburke61


quote:

ORIGINAL: dutchman55555

quote:

ORIGINAL: K 19
The more mainstream games like these become, the more dumbed-down and unrealistic they become due to large numbers of casual players (the majority) pressuring and influencing the developers through complaints to simplify / make the game easier- aka 'dumbing down'. I've seen it happen too many times before. No thank you.

Which explains why Paradox, with their complex games, isn't on Steam.

Oh.

Wait...


OH please....complex like "Naval War: Arctic Circle", yea, that was a masterpiece! Such support!

LOL


So Europa Universalis is an entry-level product? What about Hearts of Iron? Both available on Steam...

(in reply to kaburke61)
Post #: 535
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 1:47:14 AM   
JRyan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Never bought ammo online. Let's say that where I live doesn't rent to the most trustworthy people :)



Got it...

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 536
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 2:11:59 AM   
bretg80

 

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A good marketing company finds creative ways to make money and keep their customers happy. There are many ways to make money on games without charging an arm and a leg upfront. Train Simulator practically gives away the game and charges you for DLC. Paradox learned how to make money by charging reasonable prices for the base game and expanding the heck out of it to create ongoing revenue (which is my favorite model).
Matrix has decided that charging a premium and listening to many of their customers complain is their model. So far they have been successful. Let's see how many people keep returning to buy their games.
Only time will tell.

Well, like all software, eventually it goes on sale. Even at Matrix.

Thanks for all the good comments on this thread.


(in reply to JRyan)
Post #: 537
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 2:35:29 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JRyan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Never bought ammo online. Let's say that where I live doesn't rent to the most trustworthy people :)



Got it...


Well, I guess I could send it to my mother's house. Something to look into

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to JRyan)
Post #: 538
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 2:37:51 AM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

I guess what escapes me in all this is that this discussion seems to have been held multiple times. With both sides presenting the same or similar arguments.

What makes you think presenting the same material over and over is going to get you a different result? This goes for either side.

The big difference is that Matrix sets whatever price they like and we either pay it or we don't.

Good Hunting.

MR


Well, one side thinks that the truth of your last statement is going to change. And the other side agrees with your last :)

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 539
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 2:48:27 AM   
JRyan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Well, I guess I could send it to my mother's house. Something to look into


I would those Mosins are fun to shoot and cheap (at least for now). They are now getting $150 for them. I am so glad I bought my 55 Polish carbine when I did...it has 20 rounds through her and she is cherry and a beast to shoot. er..if I had one, lost it in a boating accident.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 540
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