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RE: Pricing Suggestion

 
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RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 6:03:34 PM   
gexmex

 

Posts: 150
Joined: 11/13/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Lol yep but she's no jewellery fan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

This is getting serious I'm just trying to figure how to placate my wife lol.


Jewelry always, or almost always, works.




No Jewelry? No handbags? How do you appease her????????????????????????? haha

(in reply to smudge56)
Post #: 571
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 6:07:58 PM   
juanchopancho

 

Posts: 52
Joined: 3/18/2009
Status: offline
Hell $80 is a bargain for the amount of time I will end up playing this game.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 572
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 6:09:08 PM   
Tomn

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn
This is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about, really. The argument goes in circles because the insistence is that "You've already been answered, and answered in such a way that you can't argue back, so why don't you just shut up now?"


Then perhaps you should bring something new to the table instead of rehashing the same old arguments.


Now, see, this doesn't help at all.



If you have nothing new to bring to the table, then it isn't *going* to move forward.

You have market research to prove them wrong?

You have evidence that they are losing money with the price as is?

Can you name a competitor that puts out a game that covers the same thing in the same detail with the same features at a much lower price?


Well, I HAVE bought forth points in relation to everything you've said (seriously, I've written a lot of stuff here, and I do think at least part of it is worth reading), but as it happens I DO have some hard numbers and I DO have a competitor running pretty much the same deal and getting much better results.

Before I begin, a reminder - my stance is that Matrix will do considerably better if they lowered their prices AND partnered with major distributors such as Steam or Gamersgate or whatnot as a combination of a lowered price and major distribution will allow them to reach a large, previously untapped group of hidden grognards (potential grognards as yet unaware of their true loves). I do accept that there are certainly some games in the Matrix stable which would benefit less from such a course, being by their nature entirely incapable of being made more accessible to anyone but the groggiest of grognards, yet even these would likely benefit to some extent from wider distribution and lowered prices. As for anything that CAN be made more accessible, Matrix is quite likely to be shocked at the improvement - and from what I've heard, Command is, though complex, a relatively much more accessible game. Remember: It isn't just the reduction of price, but large-scale distribution that matters. The one would not matter without the other.

Now, my proof? The prosecution would like to call Matrix Games to the stand.

In the "Good Health of the Wargaming Niche" thread, Matrix Games released some interesting figures, quoted here:

quote:


Some other interesting stats I didn't have time to put together yesterday. These stats are related to iOS

* Volume sales of our strategy/wargames on iOS increased 502% in 2012 compared to 2011.
* The growth in volume sales in the first quarter of 2013 compared to 1st quarter of 2012 is 352%. This growth is continuing and we expect it to be higher when major releases like Panzer Corp and Space Program Manager hit the app store.
* In value terms the increase is higher. In 2012 the value of all sales increased 3033% compared 2011. Yes I did say 3033%, or an increase of 30 times.

An increase of 44% on PC/Mac is very healthy but these growth figures are amazing to us. So while we do have some new blood on PC and Mac the main source of newcomers to the hobby looks very much like it will be on tablets.


502% growth! Not too shabby, and apparently entirely unexpected. This at least does provide some proof that Matrix Game's prediction models are on shaky ground in areas they haven't yet worked in, throwing doubts upon the accuracy of their years of data and experience in a modern marketplace. But let's examine this in a little more depth - why should tablets provide such meteoric growth?

There is, of course, the fact that tablets are a relatively new market. Of COURSE growth is higher. Yet this wouldn't explain things in and of themselves, since presumably Matrix would have accounted for that, and yet remain amazed by the new figures rolling in. So what other explanations are in play?

There is then the refrain "They dumbed down the games! They're appealing to the mainstream! Of COURSE they're selling better!" Perhaps so...but Battle Academy, their biggest ticket iOS game doesn't really seem to have been dumbed down much at all in its conversion to iOS. In point of fact, the screenshots for Battle Academy PC look almost completely identical to the screenshots in Battle Academy iPad. Nor does their feature list differ in any particular save that the PC version has modding support - something which is hardly likely to scare away new gamers. Perhaps someone with both versions of the game could go into more detail, but it doesn't really seem as if there's been a great deal of dumbing down involved - yet sales of the iOS version are still much higher. Why?

We could theorize perhaps that slick, Apple-using yuppies are a previously unknown source of meglomaniacal warmongerers, but there does seem to be a much simpler explanation that hasn't been discussed: Price and availability.

After adjusting for conversion rates, the price of Battle Academy for the PC is about $31.98 USD - somewhat on the high end for the kind of game it seems to be. On the iPad, the price comes down to about $20.38 - still pretty high, especially on the App store, but in absolute terms much more within impulse-buy limits. Other titles available on the App Store tell a similar story - they were either very low in price already in absolute terms, or reduced significantly from their PC offerings. Telling, but not decisive, even to me - I wouldn't have thought that a ten dollar drop would provide such an enormous improvement. So what other explanations are there?

The other explanation is that the iOS games are, of necessity, sold on the iTunes App Store - a store that has access to pretty much everybody who owns an Apple product and which has much, much greater distribution than Matrix Game's own website, just as Steam, Gamersgate et. al have much, much greater distribution and almost equally good access to PC gamers. This is the second key to the puzzle that I am arguing for - reduced prices, AND access to much wider distribution. This is what has conclusively and decisively buoyed the success of countless other niche games, and is the reason why Steam is so often hailed as the savior and great hope of niche games. It is that access - that unparalleled access which doesn't even require enormous investments in advertising as access did in the past - that we are arguing would help boost Matrix Games and the wargaming niche to unheard of heights.

There are other possibilities and other potential reasons, of course - but the two I propose above have been the precise source already enumerated by countless others in other fields, and it seems to me implausible that wargaming should be so entirely different from other genres that even their success comes from entirely different reasons, when they share so many of the same characteristics with other success stories. If you have any other explanations, however, I would be happy to hear them out and discuss them to gauge whether those explanations are more or less plausible than what I have just described.

One final note: I think I can hear your complaint right now: "Battle Academy and all the other iOS games aren't TRUE wargames, they aren't TRUE grognard and they're not REALLY that complex! They don't count!" But why not? Not all Matrix Games are made the same, as Matrix itself acknowledges, and there seems to be no reason whatsoever why Matrix should not give their more accessible games the same treatment on the PC as they have on the iPad. Even if the groggiest of grognard games remain as they always were, why shouldn't Matrix look at the success they've had on the tablet and try using the same strategy for those games on the PC? Why shouldn't they allow the income from these more accessible wargames to help fund their support of the more "serious" wargames? Why shouldn't they spread the name of their more accessible games far and wide to draw in new wargaming fans who would then become more interested, even more tempted to try the more serious offerings? Where precisely in the downside in this strategy? And if indeed it turns out that accessibility is key to gaining highly impressive sales in a wider marketplace, would it really be so bad to see Matrix begin to make their grognard games easier to work with, that you can spend more time playing with the game than wrestling with the interface?

Such is my argument. Do you think it easily dismissed, or do you think it is worth further discussion?

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 573
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 6:12:04 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vyshka


quote:

ORIGINAL: BadKarma1001


quote:

ORIGINAL: JDM

Hi Pii

I realisee that you are a brand new member of the forum, so I thought a quick note might be helpful here. Wik 33 and Aurelians posts are quite in order and if any moderating is needed we can cope. Just for the record, what is not permitted are personal insults or put downs.

BTW, as you are so new to the forum, which of our games do you actually play/own. I am sure posters would be interested.




Imho this is totally uncalled for!


Something new in the forum rules it seems. :)

How many games do you own? :p

Here is my permission slip (doesn't look like everything):

Products Registered Downloads
Armada 2526 8 FEB 2011 [ Registered ]
Battles in Italy 11 OCT 2005 [ Registered ]
Battles In Normandy 29 MAR 2005 No Downloads Available
Campaigns On The Danube 11 OCT 2005 [ Members ] [ Registered ]
Carriers at War 27 MAY 2013 [ Registered ]
Close Combat - Cross of Iron 8 FEB 2011 [ Registered ]
Command Ops: Battles for Greece 7 JUL 2013 No Downloads Available
Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge 2 JAN 2011 [ Registered ]
Command Ops: Highway to the Reich 17 APR 2012 [ Registered ]
Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! 8 MAY 2012 [ Registered ]
Conquest of the Aegean 15 JUL 2006 No Downloads Available
Crown of Glory: Emperors Edition 23 JAN 2011 [ Members ] [ Registered ]
Crown of Glory: Europe in the Age of Napoleon 11 OCT 2005 [ Members ] [ Registered ]
Distant Worlds 16 JUN 2010 No Downloads Available
Distant Worlds - Legends 12 DEC 2011 [ Registered ]
Distant Worlds - Return of the Shakturi 2 JAN 2011 [ Registered ]
Distant Worlds- Shadows 23 MAY 2013 [ Registered ]
Flashpoint Germany 29 MAR 2005 [ Registered ]
Gary Grigsby's Eagle Day to Bombing the Reich 8 FEB 2011 No Downloads Available
Gary Grigsby's War Between The States 5 MAY 2009 [ Registered ]
Gary Grigsby's War in the East: Don to the Danube 14 APR 2012 No Downloads Available
Gary Grigsby's War in the East: Lost Battles 17 MAY 2013 No Downloads Available
Gary Grigsby's War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 2 JAN 2011 [ Registered ]
Gary Grigsby's World At War 29 MAR 2005 [ Members ] [ Registered ]
Harpoon 3 - Advanced Naval Warfare 15 JUL 2006 [ Registered ]
Highway to the Reich 2 JAN 2011 [ Registered ]
John Tiller's Campaign Series 8 FEB 2011 [ Registered ]
Larry Bond's Harpoon - Ultimate Edition 14 OCT 2011 [ Registered ]
Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III 15 JUL 2006 No Downloads Available
Panzer Command: Ostfront 20 MAY 2013 [ Registered ]
War In The Pacific 29 MAR 2005 [ Members ] [ Registered ]
War in the Pacific - Admiral's Edition 2 JAN 2011 [ Registered ]
War Plan Orange: Dreadnoughts in the Pacific 1922 - 1930 15 JUL 2006 No Downloads Available


Hello, my name is Jerry and I have a wargaming problem.



What I want to know is how you got into my house and steal my games

(in reply to Vyshka)
Post #: 574
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 6:13:26 PM   
jalefkowit

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 5/27/2004
Status: offline
Since one of the recurring themes from defenders of Matrix's pricing structure in this thread has been that the complaints about it are all coming from the same people over and over again, I decided to re-activate my long dormant forum account to add my two cents:

Matrix's pricing is nuts. So nuts that it drove me away as a customer.

The reason is that the pricing scheme takes no account of the concept of price discrimination. In other words, even in "niche" markets, not every customer is alike. You have fanatics who will pay anything to get the product the moment it leaves the gate, enthusiathatsts who are interested but wait for reviews and demos, and casually-interested people who aren't following the product closely but could be convinced to give it a look if appealed to properly.

A price structure that's sensitive to this often has the cost of a product set high on first release, to squeeze the most out of those "price is no object, gotta have it now" customers. And that's fine! They get something for their money -- first crack at a product they are especially interested in. But normally over time the price would gradually come down, to make it attractive to the people in those other market segments who are more price-sensitive. The problem with Matrix is that their prices stay high, forever. So once the early adopter market has been fully tapped, nothing is done to reel in those who need more persuading to get out their credit cards.

The result is kind of hilarious. Look at the Matrix online store and you see some real head-spinners. Steel Panthers World at War: Generals Edition, a title that is coming up on fourteen years old and doesn't even work properly in modern versions of Windows (!), is on offer for US$70 -- exactly what I paid for it back when it first came out. Uncommon Valor (released in 2002) and Korsun Pocket (2003) are still US$30. The original 2004 version of War in the Pacific (not even the 2009 Admiral's Edition!) is still US$60. And on and on.

To put it bluntly, these prices are insane for titles of this vintage. Computer games are depreciating assets; they are valued less by the marketplace as time goes on, because in general people value presentation that takes advantage of modern hardware and runs properly on modern systems. Games that were US$50 AAA titles a decade ago depreciate over time into $4.99 Good Old Games. It's just the nature of the product. Ignoring that is like trying to sell movies on VHS for US$120 in 2013 because you could get that for them in 1993.

Even a cursory review of the marketplace will show that Matrix is alone in not understanding this. Nobody else tries to sell games a decade or more old for the same price as their new-release titles. Go look on any other online marketplace today and try to find somebody selling a game released in 2000 for US$50+. You won't. But you'll find plenty of games of similar vintage on offer in the less-than-US$10 range, because they can still be sold to more casually interested people, if the price is right.

There are lots of titles in the Matrix back catalog that I'm casually interested in. But since the prices never come down, I'll never play them. Matrix's argument is that this is OK because they're selling into a niche; but anyone in that niche who was super-interested in those titles would have bought them long, long ago. The only potential customers left are the casually interested. But if those folks didn't find those titles appealing in 2003 at USD$60, they're not likely to find them any more appealing at the same price ten years later. Matrix argues that it has secret data showing that its games don't follow the dynamics that other games from other publishers do. But that's a bit like an auto manufacturer saying that it has secret data showing that its cars aren't bound by the laws of physics like other cars are; unless you can show me those data, I'm going to be highly skeptical of the claim.

So Matrix loses me as a customer. From this thread, I gather that is supposed to mean I'm not a sufficiently hardcore grognard to see past the up-is-down prices. But to me it feels more like I'm just economically rational.

(And before you ask, no, I don't expect this post to change anything. I just wanted to demonstrate that this was not a complaint that's limited to the Usual Suspects.)

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 575
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 6:17:07 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Lol yep but she's no jewellery fan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

This is getting serious I'm just trying to figure how to placate my wife lol.


Jewelry always, or almost always, works.




Jewelry worked for mine. Throwing money at her worked too


So the game cost you a LOT more than $80

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 576
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 6:39:50 PM   
Rob322

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 8/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Lol yep but she's no jewellery fan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

This is getting serious I'm just trying to figure how to placate my wife lol.


Jewelry always, or almost always, works.




Jewelry worked for mine. Throwing money at her worked too


So the game cost you a LOT more than $80


For me, I don't complain when she racks up charges on a "Freemeium" game and she doesn't complain about this :)

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 577
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 6:47:40 PM   
Alchenar

 

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/2/2010
Status: offline
In the twenty pages of this thread I have not seen Aurelian make a single post that wasn't a one or two line thin ad-hominem or a demand that people 'go away'.

I would be interested to see if this trend can change, or whether the people writing out long and well thought out responses to his lazy and bad-faith challenges are just wasting their time.

PS.
Close Combat - Cross of Iron
Close Combat: Panthers in the Fog
Command Ops: Battles from the Bulge
Command Ops: Highway to the Reich
Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue
Decisive Campaigns: The Blitzkrieg from Warsaw to Paris
Forge of Freedom: The American Civil War 1861-1865
Germany at War: Barbarossa 1941
Panzer Corps

And maybe one or two others that I never got round to registering (I got Rise of Prussia and Alea Jacta Est from gamersgate and Unity of Command on Steam). I consider myself thoroughly burned by the terribleness of Panthers in the Fog, and Germany at War is probably good but has issues with my graphics card so it's sitting on the metaphorical shelf for the time being.

I bought a very similar game to Modern Air/Naval Operations at a very similar price (Command Ops) so I'm very much in 'potential sale' territory, but the fact is my last two purchases have raised my perception of the opportunity cost of buying from Matrix significantly. I'm in a position now where I'm just not going to buy again from Matrix unless I either have a very good demo experience or the price is good.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 578
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 7:38:23 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

In the twenty pages of this thread I have not seen Aurelian make a single post that wasn't a one or two line thin ad-hominem or a demand that people 'go away'.
his lazy and bad-faith challenges


Adhom much? Hypocrite, haven't seen a single post where I said go away. Or any that cross a line.



But many, in 20 pages, where the same crowd thinks that they know better than the company that develops and sells these game games. Oh the arrogance of those.

Haven't seen an post in 20 pages that shows any verifiable evidence that they know better either.

Instead of being a lazy lad and listing a list of games in this ill thought way to avoid making a well thought out post, why not add something new instead of whining about me.



< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/27/2013 7:53:34 PM >


_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to Alchenar)
Post #: 579
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 7:45:20 PM   
JRyan


Posts: 555
Joined: 3/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juancho

Hell $80 is a bargain for the amount of time I will end up playing this game.



And that is one of the very reasons that should be considered when purchasing the sim.

(in reply to juanchopancho)
Post #: 580
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 7:47:47 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JRyan


quote:

ORIGINAL: juancho

Hell $80 is a bargain for the amount of time I will end up playing this game.



And that is one of the very reasons that should be considered when purchasing the sim.


I wasn't happy about the price of WiTE. And said so. But I bought it anyway, and am happy I did.

Haven't complained about prices since.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to JRyan)
Post #: 581
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 7:52:32 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Lol yep but she's no jewellery fan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

This is getting serious I'm just trying to figure how to placate my wife lol.


Jewelry always, or almost always, works.




Jewelry worked for mine. Throwing money at her worked too


So the game cost you a LOT more than $80


Yeah. She loves jewelry. Could be worse, she wanted a Porsche. Settled for a BMW.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 582
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 7:52:40 PM   
Tomn

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

In the twenty pages of this thread I have not seen Aurelian make a single post that wasn't a one or two line thin ad-hominem or a demand that people 'go away'.
his lazy and bad-faith challenges


Adhom much? Hypocrite, haven't seen a single post where I said go away. Or any that cross a line.



But many, in 20 pages, where the same crowd thinks that they know better than the company that develops and sells these game games. Oh the arrogance of those.

Haven't seen an post in 20 pages that shows any verifiable evidence that they know better either.

Instead of being a lazy lad and listing a list of games as if this ill thought way to avoid making a well thought out post, why not add something new instead of whining about me.


I assume your response to my analysis will be forthcoming now that you've gotten the short and quick responses out of the way? I mean, not to toot my own horn here, but I think the points I've made there ARE somewhat compelling and would require a fairly-well thought-out response, but if you think they can be easily and quickly dismissed, I would like to hear why you think so.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 583
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 7:55:13 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alchenar

In the twenty pages of this thread I have not seen Aurelian make a single post that wasn't a one or two line thin ad-hominem or a demand that people 'go away'.
his lazy and bad-faith challenges


Adhom much? Hypocrite, haven't seen a single post where I said go away. Or any that cross a line.



But many, in 20 pages, where the same crowd thinks that they know better than the company that develops and sells these game games. Oh the arrogance of those.

Haven't seen an post in 20 pages that shows any verifiable evidence that they know better either.

Instead of being a lazy lad and listing a list of games as if this ill thought way to avoid making a well thought out post, why not add something new instead of whining about me.


I assume your response to my analysis will be forthcoming now that you've gotten the short and quick responses out of the way? I mean, not to toot my own horn here, but I think the points I've made there ARE somewhat compelling and would require a fairly-well thought-out response, but if you think they can be easily and quickly dismissed, I would like to hear why you think so.


Your name is Alchenar? One should not assume.

Instead of troubling myself to make some long winded response, and having very bad hands precludes it, I'll just cut to the chase.

You have market research to prove them wrong?

You have evidence that they are losing money with the price as is?

If you do, provide it.

If not, then there is nothing new.

Ask yourself, why have the developers dropped out of this thread?

No wordy response needed.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/27/2013 8:00:41 PM >


_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 584
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:00:12 PM   
Tomn

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Your name is Alchenar? One should not assume.


I was, uh, talking about my post just now. You know, the multi-page monstrosity that uses Matrix Game's own released sales data about iOS sales to demonstrate how lower prices and the use of major distributors have resulted in astonishingly good sales figures, and how the same strategy that worked on the App Store has every reason to succeed on Steam. I figured that it'd take you some time to work up a full response - I have to admit I'd be a touch offended otherwise, given the time and effort I put into it - so I was asking if you're currently writing that up now that you got the shorter, less effort-intensive responses to others out of the way first.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 585
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:01:54 PM   
Alchenar

 

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Adhom much? Hypocrite, haven't seen a single post where I said go away. Or any that cross a line.



But many, in 20 pages, where the same crowd thinks that they know better than the company that develops and sells these game games. Oh the arrogance of those.

Haven't seen an post in 20 pages that shows any verifiable evidence that they know better either.

Instead of being a lazy lad and listing a list of games in this ill thought way to avoid making a well thought out post, why not add something new instead of whining about me.




Well I wrote some things earlier, but given that tomn is making my case right now with considerable effort I'm happy not to step on his toes as he does it.

I am however enjoying seeing you live up to the appropriateness of the title 'Matrix Elite Guard'


e: to provide a tangible contribution to the thread here, I'll point out that people have been confusing having to have a debate with winning a debate.

Nobody is suggesting that Matrix have to have this debate. But if people from Matrix choose to engage in it then exercising their right to walk away doesn't actually have any relation to the merits of the various arguments. It just means that in practice whoever wins the argument doesn't have any consequences towards how Matrix choose to run their business. But then we all knew that going in.


< Message edited by Alchenar -- 9/27/2013 8:05:38 PM >

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 586
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:08:24 PM   
Tomn

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Instead of troubling myself to make some long winded response, and having very bad hands precludes it, I'll just cut to the chase.

You have market research to prove them wrong?

You have evidence that they are losing money with the price as is?

If you do, provide it.

If not, then there is nothing new.

Ask yourself, why have the developers dropped out of this thread?

No wordy response needed.


...um.

Yes. Yes I did. I used Matrix's own sales figures and their own data which they provided to make the point.

And...uh...are you aware that my point (and those of most others) is not that Matrix is losing money, but rather they are earning far less than they should rightfully be earning by sticking to obsolete distribution and pricing strategies?

Did you...did you actually read anything I wrote? Did you read anything I ever wrote? Why exactly are you complaining about there being the same arguments over and over again if you don't even know what the arguments are or bother to look them over?

Edit: By all means, step on my toes. If you happen to bring up a point I forgot to mention or didn't think of, that's all to the good.

< Message edited by Tomn -- 9/27/2013 8:10:56 PM >

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 587
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:09:04 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Your name is Alchenar? One should not assume.


I was, uh, talking about my post just now. You know, the multi-page monstrosity that uses Matrix Game's own released sales data about iOS sales to demonstrate how lower prices and the use of major distributors have resulted in astonishingly good sales figures, and how the same strategy that worked on the App Store has every reason to succeed on Steam. I figured that it'd take you some time to work up a full response - I have to admit I'd be a touch offended otherwise, given the time and effort I put into it - so I was asking if you're currently writing that up now that you got the shorter, less effort-intensive responses to others out of the way first.


I was, uh, not referring to you when I typed it. I have no control over what you assume.

And no, I'm not given to typing long winded responses to anything. I go right to the bottom line.

The bottom line is that you have *no* data that shows they are wrong.

How Steam or Apps stores operate is not relevant. Steam, for example, does not *develop* games. They distribute them.

I'd address the "touched offended otherwise" line after the hand stops hurting.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 588
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:14:43 PM   
Xornox

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 8/9/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jalefkowit

The result is kind of hilarious. Look at the Matrix online store and you see some real head-spinners. Steel Panthers World at War: Generals Edition, a title that is coming up on fourteen years old and doesn't even work properly in modern versions of Windows (!), is on offer for US$70 --


Exactly! Especially selling Steel Panthers for 70$ is a crime. I almost went to that scheme but luckily tested it before purchasing. Of course, it was impossible get to work in my computer.

I have similar Matrix game list as in the message above, but I am now starting to lose my respect to this company. I am done...

(in reply to jalefkowit)
Post #: 589
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:16:39 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Instead of troubling myself to make some long winded response, and having very bad hands precludes it, I'll just cut to the chase.

You have market research to prove them wrong?

You have evidence that they are losing money with the price as is?

If you do, provide it.

If not, then there is nothing new.

Ask yourself, why have the developers dropped out of this thread?

No wordy response needed.


...um.

Yes. Yes I did. I used Matrix's own sales figures and their own data which they provided to make the point.

And...uh...are you aware that my point (and those of most others) is not that Matrix is losing money, but rather they are earning far less than they should rightfully be earning by sticking to obsolete distribution and pricing strategies?

Did you...did you actually read anything I wrote? Did you read anything I ever wrote? Why exactly are you complaining about there being the same arguments over and over again if you don't even know what the arguments are or bother to look them over?

Edit: By all means, step on my toes. If you happen to bring up a point I forgot to mention or didn't think of, that's all to the good.


I want *your* figures. Not theirs. Especially as they have not, and have no obligation to, release them all.

You don't *know* that they are losing sales. I'm not interested in speculation. I want the proof.

You don't *know* that they're losing money because it's an $80 download. I don't want speculation. I want the proof.

You don't *know* what their profit margin is. I don't want the speculation. I want the proof.

Who should I believe? The people who have been in this business. And are *still* in business, despite the higher price games? Or the people who say that, despite their success, they're wrong?

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/27/2013 8:20:51 PM >


_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 590
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:16:57 PM   
Tomn

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Your name is Alchenar? One should not assume.


I was, uh, talking about my post just now. You know, the multi-page monstrosity that uses Matrix Game's own released sales data about iOS sales to demonstrate how lower prices and the use of major distributors have resulted in astonishingly good sales figures, and how the same strategy that worked on the App Store has every reason to succeed on Steam. I figured that it'd take you some time to work up a full response - I have to admit I'd be a touch offended otherwise, given the time and effort I put into it - so I was asking if you're currently writing that up now that you got the shorter, less effort-intensive responses to others out of the way first.


I was, uh, not referring to you when I typed it. I have no control over what you assume.

And no, I'm not given to typing long winded responses to anything. I go right to the bottom line.

The bottom line is that you have *no* data that shows they are wrong.

How Steam or Apps stores operate is not relevant. Steam, for example, does not *develop* games. They distribute them.

I'd address the "touched offended otherwise" line after the hand stops hurting.



Dude.

Matrix Games sold their games on the App Store.

They did much, much better than their PC sales - better than they expected.

I tried to analyze why.

Not only do I have data, I have Matrix's own freakin' data about their own freakin' games and their own freakin' sales.

Would you mind actually reading that stuff over before you decide that it's completely valueless?

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 591
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:20:12 PM   
Alchenar

 

Posts: 360
Joined: 8/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Your name is Alchenar? One should not assume.


I was, uh, talking about my post just now. You know, the multi-page monstrosity that uses Matrix Game's own released sales data about iOS sales to demonstrate how lower prices and the use of major distributors have resulted in astonishingly good sales figures, and how the same strategy that worked on the App Store has every reason to succeed on Steam. I figured that it'd take you some time to work up a full response - I have to admit I'd be a touch offended otherwise, given the time and effort I put into it - so I was asking if you're currently writing that up now that you got the shorter, less effort-intensive responses to others out of the way first.


I was, uh, not referring to you when I typed it. I have no control over what you assume.

And no, I'm not given to typing long winded responses to anything. I go right to the bottom line.

The bottom line is that you have *no* data that shows they are wrong.

How Steam or Apps stores operate is not relevant. Steam, for example, does not *develop* games. They distribute them.

I'd address the "touched offended otherwise" line after the hand stops hurting.



Dude.

Matrix Games sold their games on the App Store.

They did much, much better than their PC sales - better than they expected.

I tried to analyze why.

Not only do I have data, I have Matrix's own freakin' data about their own freakin' games and their own freakin' sales.

Would you mind actually reading that stuff over before you decide that it's completely valueless?


It's okay Tomn. Honour has been satisfied. You get to declare victory and walk off into the sunset now.

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 592
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:22:53 PM   
Rob322

 

Posts: 578
Joined: 8/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Instead of troubling myself to make some long winded response, and having very bad hands precludes it, I'll just cut to the chase.

You have market research to prove them wrong?

You have evidence that they are losing money with the price as is?

If you do, provide it.

If not, then there is nothing new.

Ask yourself, why have the developers dropped out of this thread?

No wordy response needed.


...um.

Yes. Yes I did. I used Matrix's own sales figures and their own data which they provided to make the point.

And...uh...are you aware that my point (and those of most others) is not that Matrix is losing money, but rather they are earning far less than they should rightfully be earning by sticking to obsolete distribution and pricing strategies?

Did you...did you actually read anything I wrote? Did you read anything I ever wrote? Why exactly are you complaining about there being the same arguments over and over again if you don't even know what the arguments are or bother to look them over?


Can I ask for a moment whether it really matters if you convince anyone or not? Internet chat boards are usually a bad place to convince people to change their minds and agree with you. And why should they be? No one knows anything about the person they're arguing with. Even if credentials are stated, there's no clear reason why they should automatically be accepted. That's why these things typically devolve into nonsensical rants or name calling and people arguing past one another. Anyhow, who cares if Aurelian read what you wrote; isn't your argument with Matrix? It shouldn't be with the other players but with them. If Matrix is uninterested in discussing this with you then you're stuck. Or you're doomed to this thread, continually arguing with other players in an ever deepening spiral of bickering until eventually the thread is locked. It's your choice of course, I'm not telling you to stop or how to use your time but the folks still fighting the fight (whichever side) are just banging their heads against the wall right now.

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 593
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:27:05 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Your name is Alchenar? One should not assume.


I was, uh, talking about my post just now. You know, the multi-page monstrosity that uses Matrix Game's own released sales data about iOS sales to demonstrate how lower prices and the use of major distributors have resulted in astonishingly good sales figures, and how the same strategy that worked on the App Store has every reason to succeed on Steam. I figured that it'd take you some time to work up a full response - I have to admit I'd be a touch offended otherwise, given the time and effort I put into it - so I was asking if you're currently writing that up now that you got the shorter, less effort-intensive responses to others out of the way first.


I was, uh, not referring to you when I typed it. I have no control over what you assume.

And no, I'm not given to typing long winded responses to anything. I go right to the bottom line.

The bottom line is that you have *no* data that shows they are wrong.

How Steam or Apps stores operate is not relevant. Steam, for example, does not *develop* games. They distribute them.

I'd address the "touched offended otherwise" line after the hand stops hurting.



Dude.

Matrix Games sold their games on the App Store.

They did much, much better than their PC sales - better than they expected.

I tried to analyze why.




Dude, when I can get WiTE or WiTP-AE to play on my smart phone from the app store, let me know.

Dude, if this app store is so successful, why isn't this game that have people up in arms over a price that they don't want to pay, on it?

Dude, is Civil War II available at an app store.

Dude, this whole round and round the mulberry bush thread is because there are a few that can't afford to buy it.

That is the crux of the matter dude.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to Tomn)
Post #: 594
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:31:22 PM   
smudge56

 

Posts: 667
Joined: 1/17/2009
From: UK
Status: offline
BMW for the game wow...




quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Lol yep but she's no jewellery fan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

This is getting serious I'm just trying to figure how to placate my wife lol.


Jewelry always, or almost always, works.




Jewelry worked for mine. Throwing money at her worked too


So the game cost you a LOT more than $80


Yeah. She loves jewelry. Could be worse, she wanted a Porsche. Settled for a BMW.


(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 595
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:32:33 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob322


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tomn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
Instead of troubling myself to make some long winded response, and having very bad hands precludes it, I'll just cut to the chase.

You have market research to prove them wrong?

You have evidence that they are losing money with the price as is?

If you do, provide it.

If not, then there is nothing new.

Ask yourself, why have the developers dropped out of this thread?

No wordy response needed.


...um.

Yes. Yes I did. I used Matrix's own sales figures and their own data which they provided to make the point.

And...uh...are you aware that my point (and those of most others) is not that Matrix is losing money, but rather they are earning far less than they should rightfully be earning by sticking to obsolete distribution and pricing strategies?

Did you...did you actually read anything I wrote? Did you read anything I ever wrote? Why exactly are you complaining about there being the same arguments over and over again if you don't even know what the arguments are or bother to look them over?


Can I ask for a moment whether it really matters if you convince anyone or not? Internet chat boards are usually a bad place to convince people to change their minds and agree with you. And why should they be? No one knows anything about the person they're arguing with. Even if credentials are stated, there's no clear reason why they should automatically be accepted. That's why these things typically devolve into nonsensical rants or name calling and people arguing past one another. Anyhow, who cares if Aurelian read what you wrote; isn't your argument with Matrix? It shouldn't be with the other players but with them. If Matrix is uninterested in discussing this with you then you're stuck. Or you're doomed to this thread, continually arguing with other players in an ever deepening spiral of bickering until eventually the thread is locked. It's your choice of course, I'm not telling you to stop or how to use your time but the folks still fighting the fight (whichever side) are just banging their heads against the wall right now.



Very true.

Bottom line is: The game is priced at what is. I'm not the one who has to be convinced. The ones who have to be convinced are the ones who did all the work and research and published it at the price it is at.

And that isn't going to happen.

Personally, in some ways I wish it was true. Would just love a new Porsche. But I really doubt if I go to their website and told them they're losing sales because of its price, that they would listen.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to Rob322)
Post #: 596
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:33:50 PM   
Tomn

 

Posts: 148
Joined: 4/22/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob322

Can I ask for a moment whether it really matters if you convince anyone or not? Internet chat boards are usually a bad place to convince people to change their minds and agree with you. And why should they be? No one knows anything about the person they're arguing with. Even if credentials are stated, there's no clear reason why they should automatically be accepted. That's why these things typically devolve into nonsensical rants or name calling and people arguing past one another. Anyhow, who cares if Aurelian read what you wrote; isn't your argument with Matrix? It shouldn't be with the other players but with them. If Matrix is uninterested in discussing this with you then you're stuck. Or you're doomed to this thread, continually arguing with other players in an ever deepening spiral of bickering until eventually the thread is locked. It's your choice of course, I'm not telling you to stop or how to use your time but the folks still fighting the fight (whichever side) are just banging their heads against the wall right now.



Well, as it happens, I like debate. It's something of a hobby of mine. I like trading points, analyzing rebuttals, coming up with counter-arguments and wording it all with the best rhetoric I can come up with. It's fun, and it's interesting in and of itself - the more so when it's for a cause that does seem worthwhile. Call it verbal wargaming, y'know? And I do like to try and keep things on the level when I do so, and I do think that good debate can produce worthwhile discussions and change some key minds (my own being no exception, mark!) It might be a bit odd, and I might spend a bit too much time doing it, but I don't think anyone here is in any real position to throw the first stone when it comes to spending too much effort on their hobbies, eh?

That said, Aurelian is proving himself thoroughly unsatisfying as a debating partner, so yeah, I suppose I should back off him now. I don't suppose you'd have anything to share, though? You seem like a reasonable guy.

(in reply to Rob322)
Post #: 597
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:36:18 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

BMW for the game wow...




quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Lol yep but she's no jewellery fan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

This is getting serious I'm just trying to figure how to placate my wife lol.


Jewelry always, or almost always, works.




Jewelry worked for mine. Throwing money at her worked too


So the game cost you a LOT more than $80


Yeah. She loves jewelry. Could be worse, she wanted a Porsche. Settled for a BMW.




Well, not this game, but something else I wanted :)

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to smudge56)
Post #: 598
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:36:32 PM   
smudge56

 

Posts: 667
Joined: 1/17/2009
From: UK
Status: offline
Its my personality


quote:

ORIGINAL: gexmex


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

Lol yep but she's no jewellery fan
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blighty56

This is getting serious I'm just trying to figure how to placate my wife lol.


Jewelry always, or almost always, works.




No Jewelry? No handbags? How do you appease her????????????????????????? haha


(in reply to gexmex)
Post #: 599
RE: Pricing Suggestion - 9/27/2013 8:36:36 PM   
dutchman55555

 

Posts: 139
Joined: 4/21/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JDM

BTW, as you are so new to the forum, which of our games do you actually play/own. I am sure posters would be interested.

It's sad that you would demand new participants display their credentials, but if you must, since I am under 100 posts:

Battle of Britain II - Wings of Victory
Decisive Campaigns: The Blitzkrieg from Warsaw to Paris
Forge of Freedom: The American Civil War 1861-1865 3
John Tiller's Battleground Civil War
John Tiller's Battleground Napoleonic Wars
John Tiller's Campaign Series
Larry Bond's Harpoon - Ultimate Edition
Panzer Command: Ostfront
Panzer Corps
Time of Fury
Unity of Command
War in the Pacific - Admiral's Edition


My first computer wargame was AH's Midway. My first computer was a TRS 80 Model I with the (oooooooo!) 16K upgrade which loaded programs from cassette. I personally shook Larry Bond's hand in 1988.

Oh, there are several Matrix purchases missing from there, including the original HttR.

I should also note that my Steam collection numbers 483. This includes a copy of UoC. Yes, I bought it here, then I bought it at Steam as well, as it was cheaper to buy the DLC with the original on Steam than it was to buy the DLC alone here. Food for thought.

Oh, I also have several AGEOD titles, but haven't bought any since Matrix gobbled them up, and at their current price point I won't be buying any more in the near future.



(in reply to JDM)
Post #: 600
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