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RE: Allies land on Luzon!!

 
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RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/7/2013 8:55:07 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Keep in mind that he also has pilot training HI costs. If he had 3M HI in the bank, and spent 2M on fighters at 36 HI per plane, that's actually 55,555 fighters he could build... Obviously, no one is able to actually build that many, because there are so many other costs. Any NavSY he might still be doing (I actually can't think of anything worth it at this late date, except maybe subs and smaller craft?), plus 6 HI per Armaments/Vehicle, which he'll still need to run. Especially come August when the Soviets activate, at least so Pax claims (and I mostly believe him, though it depends on whether the IJ turns replacements on or off in Manchuria).

I think leaving only 1M HI to account for the other costs is too low. I would reverse it, and be surprised if he spent 1M HI in the next year on planes, considering he hasn't even spent that much on losses to date in 3 years.

Plus he has to account for "Are the B-29s going to torch my factories?"


But its quite unlikely he will run out of HI to produce planes? So that is not something to expect?

Going by what you and aztez says my only hope of making an impact on production is by burning the factories. Problem is I will have to do it by night...Hope it will work!

This whole deal kind of puts things in a perspective. Once I secure a B29 site within normal range of the HI I wonder if it wonīt be counter productive to try and establish any kind of foothold closer to the HI. I wonīt be able to do any daylight bombing without clearing the air of Japanese fighters. And that is most likely impossible to achieve. Even in late 45 I will only be getting around 700 USN/USAAF fighters. Assuming Erik pour everything he has into producing fighters I donīt see it as improbable that he would produce 1500 fighters per month.

That would require me to get a 2:1 advantage just to break even. And I would be fighting over his bases where he has radar and most likely Jets long before I get any.

Might be better to just sit back and let the B29s do the work at night? If that works of course.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 2011
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/7/2013 8:58:45 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
HI and plane pools. The Japanese version of off-map. Build early, sit back.


Ouff, didnīt think of that. Well, at least some good have come out of my losses. Iīm preventing him to fill up his pools unhindered at least!

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Post #: 2012
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/7/2013 9:05:27 PM   
Spidery

 

Posts: 1821
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quote:




Minor quibble. The Tonans can carry 16,435 Fuel. At 36 HI per single engine plane, that's only 456.53. Not insubstantial, but definitely not 1500 planes!


I meant for all 5 Tonans and assuming a mix between 2E and 1E.

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Post #: 2013
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/7/2013 9:12:01 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Spidery

quote:




Minor quibble. The Tonans can carry 16,435 Fuel. At 36 HI per single engine plane, that's only 456.53. Not insubstantial, but definitely not 1500 planes!


I meant for all 5 Tonans and assuming a mix between 2E and 1E.


Ah, well that adds up nicely in that case.


RE: B-29s and bombing, especially at night - isn't that somewhat historical? Especially at the start of the bombing campaign? I don't think the Allies jumped right in on daylight strat bombing, not without suffering huge losses. But I'm not terribly familiar with either the campaign in Europe or the strat bombing campaign of Japan, so am a little unsure here. I just don't think that having to go in at night, at least for starters, is an unreasonable expectation.

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Post #: 2014
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/7/2013 9:12:36 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		9th December -44
______________________________________________________________________________

I hate this game sometimes!

------------------------
Luzon
------------------------
I had set my P47s to LRCAP a small base in the archipelago. I had a small LST TF sitting at the base awaiting ASW escort. Just to make sure you know. LRCAP, target base set, max range 2. Check.

Lo and behold when Erik sweeps Boac (4 hexes away) and a 80 of my P47 show up. At 15k. Really?

quote:

Afternoon Air attack on Boac , at 80,80

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 49 NM, estimated altitude 42,270 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84r Frank x 49

Allied aircraft
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 80

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84r Frank: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 4 destroyed


First I thought I messed up and forgot to limit the range. Nope. For some reason 6 of the 8 squadrons decided, Hey lets ignore our set target and our max range and go over to this completely empty hex with NOTHING in it to meet that Sweep coming in despite a 20k altitude disadvantage. AAAARGGGHH!

Another 28 P47 lost for absolutely NOTHING. No doubt Erik is rubbing his hands in delight.

This was actually the only combat of the day besides the usual bombings in Thailand.

------------------------
Disappearing planes
------------------------
Hmm, all of the sudden almost 300 fighters are gone from Thailand. Another 200 is missing at Manila. ALL the bombers are gone too. This canīt be good...

I went through my CAP on all possible locations where he might strike. Canīt do much more than that.






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Post #: 2015
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/7/2013 9:36:36 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Might be better to just sit back and let the B29s do the work at night? If that works of course.


This is the type of analysis and the game ballet where playing for VPs and observing the design really come to fruition. Many players never see it. Putting the HI economy on its rear is a far different task than knocking every plane out of the sky (over and over and over.) Plane whacking has to be done up close. Strategic war can be done at a distance IF you carefully balance all the forces. If one doesn't play for VPs the HI War is less useful.

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Post #: 2016
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/7/2013 9:38:53 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

RE: B-29s and bombing, especially at night - isn't that somewhat historical? Especially at the start of the bombing campaign? I don't think the Allies jumped right in on daylight strat bombing, not without suffering huge losses. But I'm not terribly familiar with either the campaign in Europe or the strat bombing campaign of Japan, so am a little unsure here. I just don't think that having to go in at night, at least for starters, is an unreasonable expectation.


B-29s were first used by day at high altitudes. For a variety of reasons and a new CO that was changed to night incendiary attacks. Of course in real life the fighter threat was minimal compared to the game, and Iwo was available as a divert field.

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Post #: 2017
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/8/2013 9:38:17 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		No word from Erik on the 2nd MVR band HR yet. Got a note last night he would get back to me during the day with the turn and word on the HR.

I have a hunch Erik wants to keep it. As I said earlier he can now mass produce the Frank "R" getting access to the top MVR band. And I think he believes this is advantageous for him. I actually hopes he wants to keep it in. I have been doing a lot of thinking and looking at numbers this morning. Yes, Erik has been doing very good sweeping with the Frank over the last couple of days. But thats not the whole story. He has been sweeping my LRCAP down at 15-20k without radar and layered CAP. I feel quite confident once I those things sorted my CAP will deal promptly with his sweeps.

Iīm going to use Spit VIIs down low at 20k (better MVR and slightly better speed than the Frank) and stack Corsairs above them at 31k and on top of that up at 37k Iīll put Hellcats. There is even a good chance the excellent climb of the Corsair will have time to climb above his sweeps. Iīm positive the Hellcats will have time to do so with only 1k lower altitude. And its only 2,5 month before the P47N arrives. And it will be able to get above anything Erik has anyway.

If we remove the HR it will allow my P51s to go higher than his Franks which is of course an advantage for me. BUT. Removing it would allow a lot of Eriks fighters to go up to the top MVR band. ALL his navy fighters are now restricted to 31k tops. Removing the HR would get them up to max altitude. (Jack, Sam, and Shinden)

Whatever he chose to do I donīt think it will impact things too much actually. The Hellcat 5 version is just slightly slower than the Frank and with radar backup I think it will do quite well on the defensive. And I hope I will have Hellcats in sufficient numbers to take some losses in the process. The P51 should also do well with its excellent top speed.

The key is radar. I have only 2 sets on Luzon right now and none in central Thailand. Once that is taken care of Iīm confident I can handle the situation defensively. Offensively I will do very little for now. Once the P47N arrives I will again have a means to dish out some punches.

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 10/8/2013 9:41:33 AM >

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Post #: 2018
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/8/2013 11:45:49 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		DEI
______________________________________________________________________________
No action here lately. Erik has pulled everything out. Can only find 40k troops on Java via recon. This might be the location of Eriks "missing planes" mentioned in the above update. Not much of value here though. A Fletcher TF, 2 Cargo TFs, a barge TF and a small assault ship TF. Thats it.

Depending on what Erik does here things might go faster than planned. Iīm considering shifting a Cruiser TF and another Assault ship TF and some more LSTs to speed things up once Luzon is reinforced.

Would be nice to get Soerabaja harbour. I have a heavily reinforced OZ corps and a small US Corps slated for the liberation of Java. Waiting for prep basically.




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Post #: 2019
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/8/2013 12:40:42 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Rather than Java, I would try a bold move....Hainan!!
Invade at four bases - Samah and Kiungshan along with on the coast of Vietnam at Hue and Tourane.
All AFs can build up to size 9 and you would cut off any troops in IndoChina and beyond.
His troops defending around greater Bangkok would have to live on the supply they have as you drive South towards Cam Rahn Bay.
It would cut of his source of Oil to Japan by both sea routes and the overland route from either Saigon and/or Cam Rahn Bay through China.
Its only 4 days sailing from one of your Philippine Archipelago bases.
This is a game of logistics, logistics, logistics. Cut off his!!


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Post #: 2020
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/8/2013 6:24:48 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Well, not too surprisingly Erik is no longer interested in removing the HR per the earlier agreement. I think he is making a mistake here and is blinded by the Frank "R" sweeps he has done lately. But he has failed to look at WHY he was doing well. Sweeping at a LRCAP flying from 4-8 hexes away, 20.000 feet under the sweep in a hex that lack radar will win the day for you. He would have gotten the same results sweeping from 25k as 38k.

Going by our email correspondence he clearly feels this HR is now a big advantage for him. I think he is wrong as he will be fighting defensively and getting his CAP up high would have helped him.

I think its a shame as we are missing out on seeing a lot of models true potential and I think we would have had a more enjoyable air war. But I canīt force him. Its just a shame he is missing the point and is blinded by the results of just a few sweeps against a scattered LRCAP. I should have put off asking him until after he had come up against a more organised defense and he would have realised this is not the wonder weapon he believes it is.

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Post #: 2021
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/8/2013 7:05:34 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
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Status: offline 		The only thing worse than HRs are HRs that change in mid-, or late-game.

IMO.

Let him sweep. You have ground to capture.

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Post #: 2022
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/8/2013 7:16:02 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

The only thing worse than HRs are HRs that change in mid-, or late-game.

IMO.

Let him sweep. You have ground to capture.


Its not a big deal for me. I donīt even think its to his advantage. But the discussion yesterday reminded me that we actually had agreed to remove it once he got a plane with access to the top MVR. I dislike the HR and so does he so I asked. But now he believes its a wonder weapon and its the height advantage that has been getting the P47 all those nice KDRs. Its no biggie for me and I told him so. If he wants to keep it I canīt force him to agree to removing it.

This canīt be the reason my P47s have been doing great now can it? And they all look like this squadron.





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< Message edited by JocMeister -- 10/8/2013 7:19:44 PM >

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Post #: 2023
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/8/2013 7:57:55 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		10th December -44
______________________________________________________________________________

A reasonable quiet turn.

------------------------
Luzon
------------------------
Erik lash out trying to nail some leaky LRCAP but instead hit a brick wall at Antimoan. Three sweeps hit the base. Strangely enough the radar doesnīt seem to help with the detection. This is not the first time I have seen this. I know I mentioned before Iīm wondering if something regarding radar detection has broken?

quote:

Morning Air attack on Atimonan , at 80,79

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 25 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes Between 5 and 10 minutes on all sweep despite radar. Anyone else getting this?

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84a Frank x 49

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 67
F6F-5 Hellcat x 94

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 11 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 31000 feet


During the day 70 Franks are shot down for 3 Hellcats and 2 Corsairs. A bit worried about the radar. As I said I remember I have wondered about this before but I forgot about it and havnīt checked on it. Its one of the biggest allied advantages and if its not working...ouchi.

Anyway. Tomorrow Erik will throw every available Frank "R" squadrons against Antimoan. So this is a good opportunity to test some things. I mainly want to see how the P51D is doing on CAP. I put 4 squadrons at Antimoan. 3 with so-so pilots and one with excellent ones. They are at 31k and under them are 50 Spit VII at 20k. My plan was to see if the P51 can climb above the sweep but I guess if radar isnīt working and a 6 minute warning that wonīt happen.

I also had a ASW TF stray all the way up to Manila and hit a minefield? No clue how that happened! No react message or anything? Very odd. All 4 DDs hit a mine and 1 in sinking condition.

------------------------
Thailand
------------------------
Starting to get some really good results on the ground bombardment of the superstack.

quote:

Ground combat at 55,59 (near Tavoy)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 136001 troops, 2171 guns, 1191 vehicles, Assault Value = 4742

Defending force 190492 troops, 2294 guns, 3001 vehicles, Assault Value = 5625

Japanese ground losses:
524 casualties reported
Squads: 3 destroyed, 58 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Iīm starting to realise I should have played this a lot differently. I missed a golden opportunity to really seal off his stack. Ah well.

Other then that pretty much nothing happened.

------------------------
Marianas
------------------------
Big day tomorrow! I pushed the first 100 B29-25s into service a month earlier. Hopefully tonight Tokyo will burn! Its only 110 planes flying on extended range. So only 500 bombs. But hopefully the insane number of manpower in Tokyo will burn nicely anyway!

------------------------
Allied toys
------------------------
Yum!






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Post #: 2024
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/8/2013 8:26:13 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Radar question
______________________________________________________________________________

Hmm, Iīve been running a few tests. Iīm completely unable to get a detection time above 7 minutes. Actually I get the same detection times using no radar at all. This when detecting incoming sweeps I should add. I have not tried this with bombers. I did try with fighters on AF attack and still extremely low detection times.

I have been using different kind of Japanese planes to sweep a allied base 2 hexes away. Best detection was 7 minutes. Probably ran this 50 times now.

Am I missing something here?

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Post #: 2025
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/8/2013 8:54:25 PM   
jonreb31


Posts: 714
Joined: 11/26/2006
From: Santa Cruz, California
Status: offline 		Have you tried turning them off and then back on? Works wonders on most electronics.

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Post #: 2026
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/8/2013 9:04:27 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


------------------------
Allied toys
------------------------
Yum!



I haven't done HI strat bombing in about 1.5 years real time; don't recall how Michaels' changes to Allied visibility of factory make-ups works now. Do these recons have the range from anywhere for you to accurately map out which city is making which fighter models?

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Post #: 2027
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/8/2013 10:05:27 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Yup. In the latest BETA I have a clear view with recon as to which plane models and engine models are produced where

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Post #: 2028
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 7:37:26 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I think indeed there might be a bug with radar and sweeps.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3431819&mpage=1&key=�

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Post #: 2029
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 8:55:38 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonReb

Have you tried turning them off and then back on? Works wonders on most electronics.

Are they plugged in?

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Post #: 2030
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 1:12:53 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JonReb
Have you tried turning them off and then back on? Works wonders on most electronics.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
Are they plugged in?


Bloody comedians you two!

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Post #: 2031
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 5:06:06 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: JonReb

Have you tried turning them off and then back on? Works wonders on most electronics.

Are they plugged in?

Into what?

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Post #: 2032
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 5:25:35 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
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Status: offline 		Obviously the Hamsters died......

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Post #: 2033
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 5:45:41 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		11th December -44
______________________________________________________________________________

Only one turn today as Ida didnīt sleep as I wanted her to.

------------------------
Luzon
------------------------
The expected swarm of sweeps over Antimoan never materialized. Erik did sent in 4 DDs trying for my PTs. It failed for him and he traded a DD for 2 PTs. A good trade for me. Not sure why he chose to do this with only 10% moonlight.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Lucena at 79,79, Range 3,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Kagero
DD Hatsukaze
DD Maikaze
DD Amatsukaze, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage

Allied Ships
PT-474
PT-475
PT-476
PT-477
PT-478, heavy damage
PT-479
PT-480
PT-481
PT-482
PT-483
PT-484
PT-485


He also airdropped some mines. If it works the same thing for him as it does for me its only 1 mine per airplane so Iīm not too worried about this. Going to place some AMs under a big CAP and see what comes flying!

------------------------
Thailand
------------------------
Erik has started doing heavy sweeps before the bombers now. Nothing I can do about that. I canīt afford the losses protecting them. But in the meantime our 4Es payed Udon Thani a visit though and obliterated the single unit there. Looks like Erik is more interested in sweeping than protecting his troops for now. Iīll try to fly in some flak to the base.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 80th Garrison Battalion, at 61,59 (Udon Thani)

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.VI x 9
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 10

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
427 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 25 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 24 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


The unit is wiped off the map during the bombings.

------------------------
DEI
------------------------
I did something INCREDIBLE stupid last turn. I sent in a TF to be in position for the next invasion. And I forgot to turn ON "Do not unload"

quote:

Amphibious Assault at 68,115

TF 79 troops unloading over beach at 68,115

Allied ground losses:
1435 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 232 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 240 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 68 (0 destroyed, 68 disabled)
Vehicles lost 69 (0 destroyed, 69 disabled)

11 troops of a AIF Inf Section 43 lost in surf during unload of 3rd Australian Div /6


So, so, so stupid! Arrrh!

------------------------
Strat bombing
------------------------
To end on a more happy note we paid Tokyo a visit last night! BURN BABY BURN! A decent result with 102 HI burned down in one night. Canīt complain about that.

Now the worrying part...Another 300 Fighters went "missing" this turn. So in total there is something like 400-600 fighters missing from the front line. I see 3 possible reasons.
-He is upgrading all his Franks to the "R" version.
-He has pulled some of them back to the HI fearing daylight raids.
-He is massing to strike somewhere.

I know Erik by now. Its definitely the last one. I think he is going to try and hit the Marianas nailing the B29s there. So, whatever B29s can fly will be flown out and replaced by some old DBs I can spare. I will try and keep exactly the same number of bombers. This way he wonīt know if its the B29s or something else. This will add fatigue and possible OPS losses but its better to be safe then sorry. I will only be able to fly missions every 7 to 10 day anyway. Might as well have them repairing somewhere else.




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Post #: 2034
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 6:07:41 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Question on "kosherness"
______________________________________________________________________________
So far I have been hitting the manpower and not targeted oil and stuff directly. Its a bit overpowered and it can certainly be discussed whether this was within the allied capabilities.

But now as I start hitting the HI I wonder if its considered "kosher" to hit specific targets. What do you guys think? Iīm leaning towards doing this as I certainly think the allied would have spared no expense at trying to find and blow up something specific if they deemed it critical.

Also when doing manpower bombings I have no control over what burns. At this stage I donīt really care about HI. Destroying HI at this point wonīt change anything. What I REALLY want to hit is his ability to produce airplanes.

Kosher or not? I say Kosher but would like to hear your opinions.

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Post #: 2035
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 6:37:32 PM   
aztez

 

Posts: 4031
Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I say go for it. There no reason to hold back those bombers so start nailing his aircraft factories.

It will cost you bombers but the gains are far more substantial.

I did strategic bombing in both of the games that ended. No reason for anykind of restrictions on what you are targeting.

Good luck!

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Post #: 2036
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 6:49:00 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Some things are (from time to time) 'broken' and get fixed in patches. And while all things in the game are abstractions, some are sufficiently different from RL that they bring up discussions involving HRs, 'over powered', and so on.

What you are bringing up falls into that second category, IMO. The only way to look at those things in the context of the whole. Sometimes people complain about Allied 4EB striking ground troops without recognizing the unrealistic effects of IJ 2EB striking ground troops. Other examples abound.

In this case you are contemplating the issue of striking factories that are producing unrealistic quantities of airplanes! Airplanes that might even have been produced early through accelerated R&D! Go ahead and smoke 'em!

< Message edited by witpqs -- 10/9/2013 6:50:13 PM >

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Post #: 2037
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 8:03:53 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Question on "kosherness"
______________________________________________________________________________
So far I have been hitting the manpower and not targeted oil and stuff directly. Its a bit overpowered and it can certainly be discussed whether this was within the allied capabilities.

But now as I start hitting the HI I wonder if its considered "kosher" to hit specific targets. What do you guys think? Iīm leaning towards doing this as I certainly think the allied would have spared no expense at trying to find and blow up something specific if they deemed it critical.

Also when doing manpower bombings I have no control over what burns. At this stage I donīt really care about HI. Destroying HI at this point wonīt change anything. What I REALLY want to hit is his ability to produce airplanes.

Kosher or not? I say Kosher but would like to hear your opinions.


Gotta disagree with some of this.

First, anything you can bomb you can bomb IMO. Crap on this "overpowered" stuff. One-quarter of the Tokyo metroplex was destroyed in one night. The game doesn't come close to matching that.

On bombing specific industry. You can, but you need to do it in daylight to get anywhere and your losses will be high. Look at your screenie of Tokyo, how many aircraft factories there are. At extended range with only B-29s you won't get 80 points per raid gone or anything like that in my experience. If you were closer, like Sakhalin/Hokkaido, and could use B-17/B-24 hordes then yes, it would work. But your B-29 sortie rate does not add up against the calendar here. IMO nighttime Manpower is your best bet at this range with this few very finicky planes. Fatigue reduces faster than major damage repairs.

Did I mention you need to get CLOSER? Look at your plane queues after VE Day. Massive influx of non-B-29 4Es. They need someplace to work.

Finally, on HI. You DO care a whole lot about destroying HI. Not because he doesn't have a huge bank; he does. But because producing more is a major source of his Home Island supply pile he needs to defend himself. And to build Arms and Vehicle points he'll need to hold the mainland once you get the Chinese supplied and the Soviets wake up.

Look at your Tokyo raid. 102 HI centers gone in one night. He won't repair. Over the next year that's a pantload of supply he won't have. Multiply that.

You can't control what burns. Some will be industry you don't care about, like engines used on float fighters or something. But a lot will be LI and HI and that's his groceries. Local groceries that don't have to be moved by sea.

I'd stay night/manpower. And get closer. It's worth a LOT of LCU casualties to get 1000 VP per night, night after night.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 10/9/2013 8:06:39 PM >

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2038
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 8:06:40 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

Posts: 1014
Joined: 2/22/2012
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Question on "kosherness"
______________________________________________________________________________
So far I have been hitting the manpower and not targeted oil and stuff directly. Its a bit overpowered and it can certainly be discussed whether this was within the allied capabilities.

But now as I start hitting the HI I wonder if its considered "kosher" to hit specific targets. What do you guys think? Iīm leaning towards doing this as I certainly think the allied would have spared no expense at trying to find and blow up something specific if they deemed it critical.

Also when doing manpower bombings I have no control over what burns. At this stage I donīt really care about HI. Destroying HI at this point wonīt change anything. What I REALLY want to hit is his ability to produce airplanes.

Kosher or not? I say Kosher but would like to hear your opinions.


World War II was "total war" - the only thing "off the table" was chemical weapons. Both sides had them and the Germans knew that if they used them, the Allies would also. All the leaders, on both sides, remembered WWI.

If I'm not mistaken, bombing of Japan was relatively ineffective until LeMay switched to incendiary bombs and burned down the wooden Japanese cities in firestorms. Then we nuked them cause they wouldn't quit. And you're worried whether targeting specific sites is "kosher"? If you had a nuke right now would you use it? Of course you would.

Bombs away!

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 2039
RE: Allies land on Luzon!! - 10/9/2013 8:28:00 PM   
aztez

 

Posts: 4031
Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Oh.. and Bullwinkle is absolutely correct when sayin get closer.

You will get tons of 4E bombers when/if deployed into frontlines can cause total destruction.

I did not accomplish that goal in my games and had way too many bomber crews drinking vodka on somewhere in the southern pacific.

When you go againts those aircraft/engine factories you need to do it daytime tp get better results.

It will be costly affair until get fighter cover for sweeps.

The closest I came was to grab Iwo Jima and surrounding bases. Those were good bases for P51's but the closer you get the better it will be.

I think I lost over 1000 B29's but those losses were all worth it.

(in reply to Uncivil Engineer)
Post #: 2040
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