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RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/28/2013 3:50:27 AM

Lokasenna

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Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

OK, a few things:

1. I'm starting to have second thoughts on air HQ and base matching being beneficial to air coordination. I couldn't find anything in the manual last night. Too many beers may be clouding the memory. It'd be nice if Alfred could chime in on this, as he da man on these questions.
2. My parents just moved to Woodbridge, VA. Does anyone know a good beer retail outfit within a few miles of there (MD being a bit too far methinks, but possibly NW DC)? I'll be visiting there on my next trip to the States, of course.
3. I've been homebrewing since 1986. You just need enough space to hold a nice kettle, a five-gallon (what, 18.9 liters?) bucket, a glass carboy of the same size and either 48 bottles or a five-gallon Cornelius keg, plus a few other relatively small items. A closet works pretty well to hold stuff and even a tiny kitchen (by U.S. standards) in Korea is big enough to brew. Save the garage for when you guys get serious.
4. Sorry for my contribution to slightly derailing this AAR toward beer, but as richlove said, this is a public service.
5. I'll put $5 on the Amoy area being the destination for that invasion fleet.

Cheers,
CC

My friends just moved to Woodbridge. The Calvert Woodley store I mentioned earlier is in NW DC, on Connecticut Ave. I'll ask them if there's a good beer shop nearby, but I kind of doubt it...

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Post #: 2911

Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 4:40:09 AM

JocMeister

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Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
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Destination Okinawa - Day Four
______________________________________________________________________________

During the night the B29s drop another load of mines over Shanghai. The mining operation have cost me 8 B29s so far. No sounds of anything hitting mines. But strangely Erik doesn�t seem to have swept any mines during the night either. Did he neglect to bring minesweepers to Shanghai?

The fleet assembles three hexes outside Naha. I choose to move to the east. This takes me away from the level 9 AFs at Formosa and it might fool Erik about the target since I moved past Naha.

Fearing a myriad of AMc and other small vessels to pop up all over the map I sent in 4 ship Fletcher TFs to every available airfield within range. None where found so shame on me for expecting it. But to my defense this HAS happened before. This cost me the first naval casualty of the operation as one of the DDs TFs at Naha hang around. This cost me DD Pickings who were sunk in a Kamikaze attack. 3 other were heavily damaged and might not make it.

Erik did NOT move the Fleet from Shanghai. I do not know if this is because the sub and mine threat or if he never intended to do so. Or he is still waiting... But a pretty big raid was launched from Naha striking the allied fleet. I�m happy to report only 3 bombers made it through the quite impressive CAP. All three bombers were shot down by flak. I was aiming for 1000 planes on CAP and got 1200. Quite happy with that. But also quite disturbed that 3 bombers did get through even with such a big CAP.

quote:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Naha at 95,69

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 44
D4Y4 Judy x 67
N1K2-J George x 35
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 45
Ki-84r Frank x 22
Ki-100-I Tony x 24

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 113
Corsair IV x 63
Hellcat I x 10
Seafire IIC x 18
Seafire L.III x 5
F4U-1A Corsair x 66
F4U-1D Corsair x 492
F6F-3 Hellcat x 175
F6F-5 Hellcat x 251

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5b Zero: 10 destroyed
D4Y4 Judy: 33 destroyed
D4Y4 Judy: 2 destroyed by flak
N1K2-J George: 7 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 12 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 7 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 10 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Corsair II: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1D Corsair: 2 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 2 destroyed
F6F-5 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Two smaller raids also flew that was wiped out.

The allied only flew one strike against a TF at Daito Shoto.

quote:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Daito Shoto at 98,69

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 73 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A7M2 Sam x 23

Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 82
SB2C-4 Helldiver x 55

Japanese aircraft losses
A7M2 Sam: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 4 destroyed

Japanese Ships
xAK Hankow Maru, Bomb hits 5, and is sunk
E No.186, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
E No.192, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
E No.190, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
E No.154, Bomb hits 3, and is sunk

Tomorrow is obviously the big day as we attempt to land. I still very uncertain if Erik will risk his fleet. If he does he will try the 8 hex silliness again I�m sure.

And how will I play this? I�m very reluctant to split my CVE TFs from the CVs and give cover directly at Naha. So I think I�m going to stand off just outside Naha 1 hex to the west hopefully soaking any strikes coming for the Amphibs. This means I will have to rely on leaky CAP or provide LRCAP over Naha. Not sure which alternative is best?

I will also do some naval bombardment on Naha itself to rough up the airfield. I�m not going to start on the actual turn just yet so any advice or thought as appreciated!

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/28/2013 5:40:53 AM >

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Post #: 2912

RE: Manila liberated!!! - 11/28/2013 4:52:23 AM

koniu

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
DING DING. We have winner. Koniou nailed it. I�m landing on Okinawa.

I look at map You give in post 2836 and it was only logical target.
DEI was not option as this area is already out of war. The same for central/south Pacific.
Aleutians where also under my consideration but if it was summer `44 not spring `45. Now they will give You nothing, You already in B-29 range of HI and they will only delay You by few months. Hokkaido will be Holly Mary move with all those empty ocean between Midway and Japan.

So Formosa or Okinawa. So i choose Okinawa For few reasons.

Liberators in range of HI
Cutting off Formosa and China from Japan
You can use LBA to support Okinawa landing
Okinawa is ~10hex from HI and Formosa(many big AF to supress) so air counterattack will bee week and low coordinated. Only real threat to Your fleet are enemy surface ships if they manage to sneak to Your CV TF or Landing TF and even then it will be one way trip.

I hope i will be able to read like that Docup moves when time comes.
Good luck.

EDIT: what price i winn. I hope it is not place in first wave of beach assault.
On other hand i play all MOH and Call of Duty games so my skills can be useful.

< Message edited by koniu -- 11/28/2013 6:00:24 AM >

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Post #: 2913

Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 5:21:09 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

I look at map You give in post 2836 and it was only logical target.
DEI was not option as this area is already out of war. The same for central/south Pacific.
Aleutians where also under my consideration but if it was summer `44 not spring `45. Now they will give You nothing, You already in B-29 range of HI and they will only delay You by few months. Hokkaido will be Holly Mary move with all those empty ocean between Midway and Japan.

So Formosa or Okinawa. So i choose Okinawa For few reasons.

Liberators in range of HI
Cutting off Formosa and China from Japan
You can use LBA to support Okinawa landing
Okinawa is ~10hex from HI and Formosa(many big AF to supress) so air counterattack will bee week and low coordinated. Only real threat to Your fleet are enemy surface ships if they manage to sneak to Your CV TF or Landing TF and even then it will be one way trip.

I hope i will be able to read like that Docup moves when time comes.
Good luck.

EDIT: what price i winn. I hope it is not place in first wave of beach assault.
On other hand i play all MOH and Call of Duty games so my skills can be useful.

Very well done.

The reasons you state are exactly the reasons why I chose Okinawa over Formosa. And the 300.000 vs. 30.000 of course!

THE most deciding factor was the lack of airfields and ranges from Formosa to Okinawa. As you say Erik is not going to be able to get any reasonable support from his bases there. Its simply too long!

Sounds like you will make a perfect grunt landing in the first wave then! Congratulations!

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Post #: 2914

RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 6:03:03 AM

JocMeister

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I think I�ll do one of the following after giving it some thought:

1. I�m going to move the WHOLE fleet to Naha during the unloading. Everything but the CVs obviously. This of course will split the CVE/CV fleet. I hope to offset this by giving the CAP squadrons a range of 1 on both the CVEs and CVs. The CVs will be given SCTF protection by the Iowas.

2. Keep the CVEs/CVs together and give them 1 hex of CAP range.

3. Keep the CV/CVEs together and give half the CAP squadrons LRCAP orders for Naha.

4. Another option is to leave the Amphibs on their own. Using only light SCTFs for protection. This knowing any strikes that will take off will almost exclusively go for the BBs and CVs.

Thats the 3 best options I can come up with. Any input/advice/thoughts would be very welcome.

EDIT: Looking at the distances involved (11 hexes) I think an intervention by the Japanese Battle line to seem unlikely? Even moving at full speed they could not arrive during night and would arrive in broad daylight with the chance that CV air power attacked them before reaching the landing site. Thoughts on this?

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/28/2013 7:20:37 AM >

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Post #: 2915

RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 6:42:23 AM

CaptBeefheart

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Good luck. Don't think I can offer advice, except I would not go with 4. Amphibs need some protection.

Cheers,
CC

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 7:11:31 AM

Encircled

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Got to agree with CommanderCody, you can't leave the amphibs without aircover

How about a pre-emptive strike on Shanghai?

Or how about moving some Fletcher SCTF near Shanghai, hoping for a reaction into the minefields (or is that gamey?)

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Post #: 2917

RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 7:13:10 AM

JocMeister

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I�ve decided to keep the CVEs and CVs together 1 hex outside Naha. All the CAP squadrons will be given a range of 1 instead of zero and if any strikes go for Naha I�ll hope for leaky CAP from the CV fleet. I�m taking a gamble Erik is not going to send the BB fleet full speed to Naha. Only small combat ships will be in the Naha hex. CLs and downwards. This to try and minimize any incoming strikes .

Worst case scenario Erik will make a BB rush. In that case this can turn really nasty. But the Amphibs are close enough to start unloading during the night. This means about 80% of the troops will be unloaded by the time any BBs can arrive in the PM phase. Another danger is a 8 hex strike from the KB. If it comes I�ll have to hope the leaky CAP will be enough to put some serious hurt on his strike before they can get to the ships.

A CA TF will bombard during the night. Hopefully damaging any planes on the field and rough things up a bit.

In addition to this I will sweep with 150 P51s from Aparri. This is a bit of a suicide mission. But one of my best CV squadrons will provide LRCAP over Naha with 42 Corsairs. The sweeps will be followed by a small 100plane B24 strike on the AF.

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Post #: 2918

RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 7:17:28 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Got to agree with CommanderCody, you can't leave the amphibs without aircover

How about a pre-emptive strike on Shanghai?

Or how about moving some Fletcher SCTF near Shanghai, hoping for a reaction into the minefields (or is that gamey?)

Thanks CC and Encircled. I thought better of it. It was a wacky idea. Lack of sleep.

Its a good idea with the reaction and mine field. But ince Erik played nice and didn�t intentionally trigger a mass of unwanted strikes from my CVs I�ll repay the gesture and refrain from doing something similar.

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Post #: 2919

RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 7:27:31 AM

castor troy

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why using 10 divisions on a target that 2 or 3 divs could take easily? If recon tells you there are 30,000 men on that island there will be 15,000-20,000 at best and then if there are support units then that might not even be an IJA div. In the end you might only go in vs roughly 200-250 enemy av.

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 7:50:03 AM

koniu

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Keep all big BB, CA in hex with invasion TFs and CV FT. With order to reaction set to O and from DDs and CL create defense ring 1 hex from main invasion body with reaction 1.

That way You will have all ships under CAP umbrella. CL/DD will have job to buy time when enemy SAGs arrive rising DL on enemy TF and if they manage to get trough fist line big boys will finish what will left from enemy ships.

With all those subs protecting You from north is highly probable that enemy will use lot of op points fighting ASW and heu not arrive to You at time.
In my opinion biggest risk of naval interception is during night time and from East direction.
If he intercept You at day he will use all op to naval combat and almost for sure on AM phase he will be still in CV bomber range. As i say earlier surface interception attempt need to end bloodbath for Japanese navy. Question is only how much allied ships and troops he will take with him to Davy Jones's Locker. Or i ask differently how big loses are acceptable by You?

EDIT. To late. I am at work and writing that masage took me 1h

< Message edited by koniu -- 11/28/2013 8:51:45 AM >

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 7:50:27 AM

Speedysteve

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Best of luck! Should be a fun watch.

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 8:29:16 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

why using 10 divisions on a target that 2 or 3 divs could take easily? If recon tells you there are 30,000 men on that island there will be 15,000-20,000 at best and then if there are support units then that might not even be an IJA div. In the end you might only go in vs roughly 200-250 enemy av.

Hi CT.

Good question with a couple of answers:
- I hadn�t reconed Oki for almost a month since I didn�t want to draw any attention there. So for all I knew he could have put a couple of IDs there during the the last month.
- I was expecting 50% losses before I could unload. There is still danger of that.
- The troops were prepped so I might as well bring them with me as have them sit and do nothing on Luzon.

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Post #: 2923

RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 8:34:08 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

Keep all big BB, CA in hex with invasion TFs and CV FT. With order to reaction set to O and from DDs and CL create defense ring 1 hex from main invasion body with reaction 1.

That way You will have all ships under CAP umbrella. CL/DD will have job to buy time when enemy SAGs arrive rising DL on enemy TF and if they manage to get trough fist line big boys will finish what will left from enemy ships.

With all those subs protecting You from north is highly probable that enemy will use lot of op points fighting ASW and heu not arrive to You at time.
In my opinion biggest risk of naval interception is during night time and from East direction.
If he intercept You at day he will use all op to naval combat and almost for sure on AM phase he will be still in CV bomber range. As i say earlier surface interception attempt need to end bloodbath for Japanese navy. Question is only how much allied ships and troops he will take with him to Davy Jones's Locker. Or i ask differently how big loses are acceptable by You?

EDIT. To late. I am at work and writing that masage took me 1h

Not too late! I havn�t sent the turn yet. I�m going to hold on to it until I know when Erik has time to run the turn.

Thats a good idea. But if I put the CVs in the Naha hex won�t that mean a 50% penalty for the CVs since they will be in a base hex?

I have counted on about 50% losses on the amphibs and troops. So that would be acceptable. But it would still suck!

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 8:35:22 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Best of luck! Should be a fun watch.

Thanks Speedy. I hope it will fun. And I pray to the gaming gods it will be fun in a fun way where the heroes are victorious with almost no losses and not one where we have to rise from the ashes!

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 9:09:23 AM

koniu

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: koniu

Keep all big BB, CA in hex with invasion TFs and CV FT. With order to reaction set to O and from DDs and CL create defense ring 1 hex from main invasion body with reaction 1.

That way You will have all ships under CAP umbrella. CL/DD will have job to buy time when enemy SAGs arrive rising DL on enemy TF and if they manage to get trough fist line big boys will finish what will left from enemy ships.

With all those subs protecting You from north is highly probable that enemy will use lot of op points fighting ASW and heu not arrive to You at time.
In my opinion biggest risk of naval interception is during night time and from East direction.
If he intercept You at day he will use all op to naval combat and almost for sure on AM phase he will be still in CV bomber range. As i say earlier surface interception attempt need to end bloodbath for Japanese navy. Question is only how much allied ships and troops he will take with him to Davy Jones's Locker. Or i ask differently how big loses are acceptable by You?

EDIT. To late. I am at work and writing that masage took me 1h

Not too late! I havn�t sent the turn yet. I�m going to hold on to it until I know when Erik has time to run the turn.

Thats a good idea. But if I put the CVs in the Naha hex won�t that mean a 50% penalty for the CVs since they will be in a base hex?

I have counted on about 50% losses on the amphibs and troops. So that would be acceptable. But it would still suck!

Only CVE to Naha, CV 1 hex south. CA, BB protecting directly invasion and CV TF while CLs and DD creating defensive ring.

I will focus with ring on hexes between 12h to 6h. It is rather impassible that strike will go from SE. Still it is Your decision.
Note tht i will set some CV group on CAP range 2 to cover all area

I have use one of Your pictures

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by koniu -- 11/28/2013 10:18:42 AM >

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 9:27:16 AM

JocMeister

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Thats a very good idea koniu. I�ll look into it! I think having a "ring" of Fletchers along the black line could be a very good idea!

I agree an attack from the SW is very improbable. I have good air coverage from Luzon and would have seen anything around Formosa by now!

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Post #: 2927

RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 9:42:54 AM

Encircled

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You've got Fletchers available to cover every eventuality.

I'd cover 360 degrees, with lots of SCTF's on reaction 1.

I'd be very tempted to put a CAP trap on a SCTF near Formosa as well (covered from Luzon).

Obvert can't afford to ignore this. He has to smash the invasion to maintain his hopes of lasting till '46

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 9:58:39 AM

JocMeister

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Turn is off to Erik now. Can�t do any more. I�m so bloody nervous I�m about to throw up.

I tweaked it a bit per konius advice. I did two things differently though. I kept the CVEs with the CVs and did not send them into Naha. IF Erik is coming with the battle line I don�t want my CVEs in the same hex. We saw in Speedys game just how that can end...

I also left the Iowas with the CV fleet. I can�t leave the CVs completely without surface cover and the Iowas are the most likely bomb magnets short of the CV/CVEs themselves.

Alea iacta est.

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 10:19:47 AM

JocMeister

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Todays listening while waiting for the replay/CR:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWAhVbayGv4

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Post #: 2930

RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 10:35:53 AM

JocMeister

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From: Sweden
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China
______________________________________________________________________________

While the last few days of course have been dominated by the Okinawa campaign I have been busy elsewhere.

The roadblock at Nanning have really taken a pounding by bombardments lately. Sometime more sometimes less. As I speculated in another post this is likely due to supply. This seems enhanced by wildly swinging VP ratios probably caused by bases going in and out of supply.

Anyway, I ordered the first deliberate attack here tomorrow. I�m not expecting much. Equal losses would make me happy. The real reason for the attack is that I messed up earlier. I wasn�t supposed to send everything forward. The intention was to keep a Corp in reserve to land behind the stack. Now the Airborne division tasked to take the base at the coast have arrived together with the shipping. But the troops are "stuck" at the roadblock. Basically I need a reason to pull them out. An attack at the roadblock causing allied casualties will cover for the withdrawal.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 12:16:03 PM

paullus99

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Good luck Joc - he's in real trouble now.....time for a big raid on Shanghai while he's sweeping mines?

< Message edited by paullus99 -- 11/28/2013 1:18:14 PM >

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 12:41:48 PM

JocMeister

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Home alone with Ida so just a quick update after watching the replay (while throwing raisins on the floor to keep her occupied)!

We are ashore! I have only seen the replay. Losses that I know of: 2 LCIs and something hit a mine and sank!

5000 is ashore against a Mixed BDE, a SNLF and a completely wrecked division flown out from Luzon (108th). Will be very interesting to hear how Erik reasoned with this. I can�t explain it!

We will secure our first base on Okinawa tomorrow!

Full update tonight!!!

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 12:57:01 PM

Speedysteve

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All good so far on the invasion. Well done

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 1:08:45 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

why using 10 divisions on a target that 2 or 3 divs could take easily? If recon tells you there are 30,000 men on that island there will be 15,000-20,000 at best and then if there are support units then that might not even be an IJA div. In the end you might only go in vs roughly 200-250 enemy av.

The commitment of all these forces is going to keep them busy for awhile .. Oki starts port 3/3 ..
not sure its state now? But the port will have to be built up to move any quantity of forces to the next point ..
Unless the plan is to simply strat bomb from Oki?

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Post #: 2935

RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 1:24:55 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy
All good so far on the invasion. Well done

Good point. I�m not out of the woods yet!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
The commitment of all these forces is going to keep them busy for awhile .. Oki starts port 3/3 ..
not sure its state now? But the port will have to be built up to move any quantity of forces to the next point ..
Unless the plan is to simply strat bomb from Oki?

The port he actually built up to 5. And with 2 Amphib BDEs there (400 Navsupport) its no problem.

Besides I need to secure the other bases and build up all the AFs. Only Naha is built up to 7. The rest of them are between 0 and 3. So it will be a good staging point if I decide to move on. Invading the HI would be way cool.

I�m not sure a daylight strat bombing campaign is doable...yet. I lack fighters and he doesn�t. But as soon as the AFs are built up I can base B24 to help the B29 in the night time campaign. Had to stand the B29s down due to losses. They will need another 30-50 days to recover. Spreading the losses among the B24 would be a great help.

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Post #: 2936

RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 1:24:58 PM

Encircled

Posts: 2024
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline

I can't believe he hasn't reacted with the IJN

Whats he saving it for? Bombarding the Russians?

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 1:26:58 PM

JocMeister

Posts: 8262
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

I can't believe he hasn't reacted with the IJN

Whats he saving it for? Bombarding the Russians?

I have no clue actually. It might be he doesn�t want to risk the mines dropped at Shanghai? Or he wants a better shot with the LBA from better bases. Either way I doubt he will base his navy within B29 range again.

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 1:42:03 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

If recon tells you there are 30,000 men on that island there will be 15,000-20,000 at best...

I've never noticed that - where did you get that idea?

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RE: Battle for Okinawa! - 11/28/2013 1:56:14 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

If recon tells you there are 30,000 men on that island there will be 15,000-20,000 at best...

I've never noticed that - where did you get that idea?

from playing? pure playing experience

, it's always less than recon tells you. Then you count the number of units (which recon usually is excellent at) and you get an estimation.

Example: recon says 50,000 troops at at base, 8 units. Ok, I'd guess roughly 30,000 troops really there, 1 division, couple of AA units (depending on how my air attacks look like), a HQ perhaps, some base forces and constr. units. So that would then come down to 400-500 av at best (depending on which IJ div is there as they range from 300-400+ av). Ok, I'll need three US Inf divs plus armor and support and the base will easily fall. Rinse and repeat.

Of course you can always use smart bombs and identify each and every unit at the target by sending in a couple of hundred bombers on ground attack. The way the game works noone should ever be surprised what the enemy really has at a target when it comes down to combat capable LCU because they would all show up during air attacks.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 11/28/2013 3:00:18 PM >

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