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RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome)

 
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RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/15/2014 3:53:49 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Your inexperienced opponent didn't leave a sufficient garrison at Baku. So go ahead and finish him off there, but I'd suggest you not linger too long.

In fact he didn't follow (read?) the advice of stacking 3 rifle corps in Baku.

Not sure he would have been able to keep the city even with such troops.

I'm really stronger than him in this area.


In another PBEM game, I defended with one corps and two divisions. The battle raged on for three weeks before the Germans withdrew.



(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 121
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/15/2014 3:57:12 PM   
STEF78


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From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		You have no penalty for your rifle corps: did you hold the hex behind the city?

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 122
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/15/2014 4:13:04 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline 		I have no experience of defending Baku but I feel that it should be given top priority and you should be able to make it virtually impregnable with two or three strong armies under a front HQ.
Your opponent made a mistake by defending too forward. The outer defenses should start at Makhachkala and if the Germans make it as far as Derbent they should be looking at a big 'no entry' sign.

(in reply to rbrockman2)
Post #: 123
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/15/2014 4:31:47 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab

I have no experience of defending Baku but I feel that it should be given top priority and you should be able to make it virtually impregnable with two or three strong armies under a front HQ.
Your opponent made a mistake by defending too forward. The outer defenses should start at Makhachkala and if the Germans make it as far as Derbent they should be looking at a big 'no entry' sign.


He actually showed itself too optimistic by considering himself capable of resoldering his armies of Grozny with those of the North.

It is an error that he repeated several times in the game. Sometimes, it is really worth to give ground.

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 124
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/15/2014 5:14:06 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

You have no penalty for your rifle corps: did you hold the hex behind the city?


There is no penalty. Rule 20.1.2

Soviet permanent supply sources:
„h Chelyabinsk
„h Baku

As it is a permanent supply source, Baku cannot be isolated. As a result I would argue it's the most impregnable hex in the game.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 125
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/15/2014 5:36:36 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


quote:

ORIGINAL: STEF78

You have no penalty for your rifle corps: did you hold the hex behind the city?


There is no penalty. Rule 20.1.2

Soviet permanent supply sources:
„h Chelyabinsk
„h Baku

As it is a permanent supply source, Baku cannot be isolated. As a result I would argue it's the most impregnable hex in the game.


I agree with this point. Units in Baku can't be isolated.

My question is: were these units reporting to an HQ, did the german player do a full encirclement. I suppose it was not as I see bomber losses which means that there were fighters close from Baku. I think that your opponent didn't use the right way to take the city

At least the city could be garrisonned with 2 rifle corps and an HQ

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 126
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/15/2014 6:08:03 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		They were reporting to 44th Army HQ and Transcaucasus Front, both far from Baku. So the defenders would not get help from support units.
Full 4 hex encirclement with 7 attacking units.

I wasn't defending with 3 rifle corps either, effectively half that. As you say, I could have done 2 + HQ but I think in theory 3 corps would defend better. And of course they would all have sapper attachments.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 127
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/15/2014 6:19:12 PM   
timmyab

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
They were reporting to 44th Army HQ and Transcaucasus Front, both far from Baku.

To my mind this is one of the fundamental problems with the game. Without the benefit of a nearby HQ I don't understand why your units in Baku get inflated CVs. In a sane world they would fall if anything.



(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 128
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/15/2014 7:15:58 PM   
gingerbread


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Status: offline 		It's Urban terrain, so dense terrain benefits are not taken into account in the Combat Val displayed for the defender (bug is filed). It is in the Modified Combat Val, so the final result is correct.

(in reply to timmyab)
Post #: 129
2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/16/2014 7:43:39 PM   
STEF78


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Status: offline 		Turn 100, 13th may 1943

frogmarc has underestimated the mobility of my pzd/mot.

His troops Southwest of Astrakhan will pay the price for it!

Near Stalingrad, I cut the rail but will face an heavy counterattack


(in reply to gingerbread)
Post #: 130
2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/16/2014 7:45:35 PM   
STEF78


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Status: offline 		And of course his airbases on the rail line were destroyed


(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 131
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/16/2014 8:06:21 PM   
Tarhunnas


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From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		That concentration of Guards corps on the Caspian coast did look very vulnerable. With Baku gone they could just as well have retreated to Astrakhan.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 132
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/16/2014 8:08:50 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

That concentration of Guards corps on the Caspian coast did look very vulnerable. With Baku gone they could just as well have retreated to Astrakhan.

Agreed, he will loose very good troops!

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 133
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/16/2014 9:41:41 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Is this the standard 290VP to auto-win or the alt 260?

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 134
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/16/2014 9:59:11 PM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Is this the standard 290VP to auto-win or the alt 260?

290 VP

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 135
2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/17/2014 8:50:46 AM   
STEF78


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From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 102, 27 may 1943

Cleaning of the Pocket and of the western bank of the Volga.

Strong soviet mech and tank corps arriving from the north. Once Astrakhan lost, I didn't thought he would fight for this area.

Pushed back in Stalingrad.




(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 136
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/17/2014 10:26:00 AM   
Wuffer

 

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Status: offline 		not many games show a continuing offensive like this, and even fewer games are decided in '43...

great AAR

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 137
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/17/2014 10:53:33 AM   
STEF78


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

not many games show a continuing offensive like this, and even fewer games are decided in '43...

great AAR

in fact I'm wondering if I'm not making a strategical mistake while fighting in this area. The key is Moscow not Astrakhan.

But creating this Pocket was such a temptation!!!

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 138
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/17/2014 2:03:53 PM   
Wuffer

 

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Status: offline 		Yeah, you destroyed once more a lot of stuff, but OTOH the game is neither won nor decided by occupying Astrakhan or Baku alone - the ground is more or less worthless, I think, and your only chance remains a pocket of his most valueable strikeunits, like the MechCorps etc.

This is not the mortal blow yet... ---> concentrate the panzers once more, you could even shorten the line :-)

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 139
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/17/2014 2:37:45 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		The ground is not worthless as it contains Soviet population centers that give the Red Army its troop strength. Also, their troop replacement values aren't as high as they used to be.

Stef will have the win as long things continue to go as they have.

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 140
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/17/2014 10:48:11 PM   
Wuffer

 

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Status: offline 		Says the Defender Of Baku


Really, you have the Insight
:-))

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 141
2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/17/2014 11:00:05 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 104, 10 june 1943

Big (decisive?) battle of tanks on the eastern bank of the Volga. I do te "Volga right hook" (TM) to encircle the russians.



< Message edited by STEF78 -- 3/18/2014 12:00:48 AM >

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 142
2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/17/2014 11:02:52 PM   
STEF78


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From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		A view of the russians units destroyed



And an illustration of a typical turn in the north


(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 143
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/18/2014 12:36:30 AM   
Wuffer

 

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Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline 		Did the destroyed units have had similar CVs comparing to those nasty northern ones?

< Message edited by Wuffer -- 3/18/2014 1:37:24 AM >

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 144
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/19/2014 7:36:01 PM   
STEF78


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From: Versailles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

Did the destroyed units have had similar CVs comparing to those nasty northern ones?

Yes, his Corps have CV between 8 and 12.

Time to finish this game...

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 145
2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/19/2014 10:32:09 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 105, 17 june 1943

Never underestimate mobilty of Pzd/Mot!!!

The "Volga right hook" (TM) moves ahead. situation of russian troops South east of Stalingrad is critical!


(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 146
2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/20/2014 8:19:20 PM   
STEF78


Posts: 2094
Joined: 2/19/2012
From: Versailles, France
Status: offline 		Turn 106, 24 june 1943

Collapse of the russian front line. I drive at full speed to the north, move 1 Pz Corps from Saratov to break the line and complete with a breakthrough from Stalingrad.

I think the game is virtually ended, the backbone of the russian army South of Saratov is doomed.

In the north I loose Vichny-Voloshek and a stack of 3 rifle corps still resists on the caspian beaches.

< Message edited by STEF78 -- 3/20/2014 9:22:25 PM >

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 147
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/20/2014 8:31:07 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Great job with these latest pockets. It does look like the Red Army is on the verge of coming apart.

(in reply to STEF78)
Post #: 148
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/21/2014 1:05:55 AM   
rbrockman2

 

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Status: offline 		It's not over yet, but Red Team cannot afford to keep losing units like this all summer. How is the truck situation? I bet those panzers are thirsty.

We also see here how mobility is so brutal. From the standpoint of the past few turns most of those panzer divisions could have been outfitted with Pz IA's and the result would have been basically the same.

It's amazing that Red Team is still at ~6M even though they have been getting hammered almost continually (except mud) for over a year. The tank factories in the Urals would make good the brutal losses in a few months if the Red Army were left unmolested (not likely).

I found it quite odd that Red Team deployed any forces at all, especially the mobile forces, between Saratov and Astrakhan. There's very little there worth defending -- the infantry could have been holding a line in better terrain much farther north, while the mobile forces could have been involved in a combined arms counterattack far away from the panzers. Now all of those forces are toast.

Keeping Red Team down requires that the panzers be continually isolating groups of Russians. Forcing the panzers to redeploy by rail by counterattacking far away or abandoning the area near the panzers buys *time* for the Russians to regroup. If things keep going the way they have, the main mob of panzers will end up driving all the way from the Caucasus to Moscow while cutting off units nearly every turn.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 149
RE: 2 frogs in mild blizzard (frogmarc welcome) - 3/21/2014 12:54:19 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Great job with these latest pockets. It does look like the Red Army is on the verge of coming apart.


Looks like it already has so a few turns ago... Given the force ratios and that at this point the German Army was and now also is at the peak strength, with still quite an advantage in quality, the Soviets appear to be merely prey. Seems there is a lack of depth to the Red lines, which in turn may be a consequence of the bitter losses since spring 42. This trend will probably accelerate as success promotes itself.

This game and AAR are really great, I never thought anything like this was doable as German against a human opponent. Especially after a mediocre, quite normal Barbarossa start. The German standing and recovery power is astonishing. Just as the ability to keep the Panzers fueled here is... I thought you'd be slowed to a crawl after so deep advances, but RR was apparently extremely quick.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 150
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