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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 3:12:22 PM

topeverest

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I still like the aggressive play you have made. This coastal allied strategy is pretty effective.

Can you be more specific on your deployment changes around Burma.

CV's?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

This turn I initiated the Burma evacuation stage 1 alert. Pulling everything back from Prome; reinforcing Rangoon with troops from north of Rangoon while the Prome forces flow into that hex; eighty percent of the north Burma forces are going into SR for a mass move potentially to Moulmein while other will hold the river line at Magwe and potentially fall back to Lashio Tuang Gyi and long, long road back to Indochina.

I am preparing for another aerial strike in case he does have an invasion fleet heading for Tavoy. A reserve division left Singers for points north on trains today; the IJN is moving into position; closely examining all enemy search patterns; I beefed up search even more...

I am expecting attacks at two places at once...Marshalls and Indochina. In the Indochina I think he will use his BB fleet backed up by land based air, and in the Marshalls he will use his CVs, 1 BB, and cruisers.

It would be nice if it were simply an amphibious invasion of Ramree instead! Anyway, I don't have naval superiority in the Bay of Bengal anymore so it is time to evacuate most of Burma to prevent the IJA from getting cut off.

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Andy M

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 3:33:27 PM

Lowpe

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Thailand:

Initial fall back line is in purple, Rangoon and north.

Secondary line is in yellow. Off road units will likely be lightly held depending upon Allied movements.

Retreat paths are shown.

Mergui and VP are more susceptible to my air attacks unless he brings carriers. Even Tavoy is since it would need LR CAP.

A division arrives today at Chumpion; Moulmein will start receiving forces from Northern Burma today by rail, but has 600 AV now there with coastal guns.

Concerns: Allied invasion. Allied paradrops. It is important to remember that I can railroad into a contested rail base hex, but I cannot rail out of a contested rail base hex.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 4:56:14 PM

topeverest

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highly unlikely the allies will try to go overland to Moulmein. One of the toughest things to do in asia.

Tavoy and Victoria Point seem well in character for your opponent. pretty good use of the empire CV's and BB's IMHO, though Pacific is left open. I worry that he will play for Mariana's if he see's you divert and stop this.

Still you can only do so much. perhaps it is choice time and deal with the opportunity loss. I like the CV and LBA response to Burma far better than a CV battle in the PAC at this point in the war.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 5:05:32 PM

Lokasenna

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I find that, with trained pilots, extended range recon works just fine with 50% rest.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 5:45:30 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

highly unlikely the allies will try to go overland to Moulmein. One of the toughest things to do in asia.

Tavoy and Victoria Point seem well in character for your opponent. pretty good use of the empire CV's and BB's IMHO, though Pacific is left open. I worry that he will play for Mariana's if he see's you divert and stop this.

Still you can only do so much. perhaps it is choice time and deal with the opportunity loss. I like the CV and LBA response to Burma far better than a CV battle in the PAC at this point in the war.

Surely he would go for the Roi and Kwaj first. I think.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 5:51:41 PM

Lowpe

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May 23, 1943

No night air attacks.

As expected an Amphibious forces showed up off Ailinglaplap. The hapless defenders never stood a chance...

26 PP to recall the wiped out units.

Nice, well orchestrated attack with covering CVs, BB bombardments, lots of troops landed with minimal disruption. Will make a nice bomber base for the Americans to bedevil me some more.

I lost 4 search planes flying into this CAP (2 Judy and 2 Jake).

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 5:59:16 PM

Lowpe

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Nice heavy bombardment of Rangoon by Allied bombers....

Taking bets on where the enemy task force is headed to. If I would have held off I could have hit his task force on the open seas with LR CAP and probably done batter.

I laid more mines in Rangoon...

Still no other task forces sighted in the area...

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 6:00:59 PM

Lowpe

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You know, I thought BB couldn't get into Rangoon...

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 6:26:31 PM

Lowpe

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Here is the invasion for Ailinglaplap. Very easy for me to understand...and know that it was coming, not nec. for Ailinglaplap, but one of the islands close by.

So different than Burma...which can mean that Burma simply is a bombardment task force? How do I take that risk?

Dare I do a flank speed engagement with my naval forces at Victoria Point -- those forces by the way are undetected? If they could engage after the bombardment it might be very favorable to me...I could then route them to Moulmein and have them disband in port or at the very least under 300 fighter CAP.

13 hexes is a long way to go.

Color me confused in Burma!

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 7:49:46 PM

topeverest

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Can you help me understand why you wouldn't commit the CV's to either the marshalls or Burma?

What am I missing?

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 8:06:01 PM

Encircled

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BBs can't get up the river to Rangoon surely?

So if he's got BBs, then its an invasion force, so you are bang on the money with your deployments

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 8:06:38 PM

Lowpe

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Not sure why you have that opinion.

Marshalls can't be held once Tab. falls in the Gilberts. I have used the KB repeatedly to punish his aggression here, but now, it is simply too dangerous with all his land base air and interlocking long distance search. No surprises. Can't engage on favorable terms...worthless, islands, just not worth it now.

Burma is a horse of a different color right now, and I need to keep the DEI oil flowing for one more full year.

The KB being dark right now is its biggest strength.

Of course I could be all wrong.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 8:15:26 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

BBs can't get up the river to Rangoon surely?

So if he's got BBs, then its an invasion force, so you are bang on the money with your deployments

Just don't know what to think.

If it is an invasion fleet it is really unwieldy and very uncharacteristic of the Allies -- they have never done anything like this before. Normally it is multiple task forces.

I am staging a huge naval air strike for 1 hex north of Tavoy and points south. Moulmein is getting a horde of mini subs, but will be on its own. More units are flowing in, forts are nice and should be able to hold up.

More mines at Rangoon. More night time naval strikes, maybe they will get me some intel. They didn't fly last yesterday. I am tempted to run 3 destroyers up and in and then disband them to Moulmein. Recon by fire...

The IJN is going north to Mergui and disbanding into port at least most of it...no recon there, but there is naval search there. Tavoy is searched however.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 8:39:07 PM

Lowpe

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Going to try some night aerial mine laying...

Marcus gets a unit of AA this day...

George advances, will be here 2 months early on July 1.

Ayuthia, 1 hex north of Bangkok, gets a tank regiment.

Converted a squadron to Nick KAIc...270 PP ouch.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 10:57:35 PM

Lowpe

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Wake got some AA guns, and their defense is done.

Ponape got a third of a division safely. But supply is the worry. Allied 4es seem to be able to destroy the stuff very quickly perhaps some more AA will help forestall that, but in truth, they will probably increase the supply burn.

The Tone is in position for some merchant ship raiding, on the prowl. There have been some escort carriers flying ASW, wouldn't it be sweet if she can close on them? Or tankers. Just as long as it is not the AM Whipporwill.

Solomons are in the process of being stripped down to just essential troops, and a stronger line will be held from PM, Lae, Umboi, Rabaul, Kuseaie. Luckily, there isn't too much to strip out of the Solomons. I worry a little about PM simply being bypassed too.

The big unknown fleet of Burma moved 8 hexes last turn, is four from Rangoon, and 9 from Tavoy. My strike package is 230 fighters and 70 Vals for one hex north of Tavoy and south. I could have put in more bombers, and fighters too, but I would have had to use more another base and didn't want to risk a bigger splintered attack. I think he can only cover with Lightnings and Corsairs. Subs are chasing the big fleet, and I am guessing it is headed for Rangoon/Moumein, but preparing for Tavoy too.

In the Marshalls, I put a very small squadron 4 Kates on 1000 foot torpedo attacks...and might get lucky. Operating out of Ponape at a range of 10 is a little stronger strike of Nicks at 100 feet, and Betties bombing at 5000, escorted by Zeroes if any small task forces come to close. The leaders are super aggressive so hopefully they won't fly into a CAPed task force.

I look at my defensive positions and all I see are weaknesses ripe for exploiting. But then I have perfect knowledge...I need to take heart in that I have 2.5 million supplies in Tokyo, 4.7 overall and I am shooting for 6 million but to get there I need to tread a dangerous path.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 10/6/2014 12:00:59 AM >

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/5/2014 11:45:06 PM

Lowpe

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I will have the George shortly. This opens up another fighter that I can research quickly but I am wondering about doing it.

The final George comes very late, and I am aggressively going after Sam J so I think it is a no go.

The 2nd George is nice, especially the SR 2, but it has a lower altitude and less gun rating.

I am tempted to simply stick with model one until Sam J comes along in late 44/early 45.

Is this a mistake? I am not planning on producing any Jacks either. Or should I go after one of the later models...

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 12:02:11 AM

obvert

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The N1K2-J is definitely worth making. It can be both interceptor and escort with it's service 2 rating and long range. It still has the canons, and is a tad bit faster than the N1K1-J.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 11:52:11 AM

PaxMondo

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2-J is worth going for. The 5-J ... you need to plan for the engine change. Adding the 2x13.2mm CL is a big deal .. that's the equivalent of adding 4x50 cal F ... the 5-J has almost 2x the armament of any allied fighter. That alone is what keeps it a viable fighter through game end. And it can really punish 4E's in daylight bombing ... SR3 is just something you have to deal with as the IJ ... face it, most of your new AC models arriving after 6/44 are SR3 or higher.

If you have George, I would not spend the supply to get Jack. To me they are the same plane, different flavor. Get one or the other, but not both.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 12:12:35 PM

Lowpe

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May 24, 1943

Night aerial bombing by the Allies of Kusaie near Marshalls. Americans consolidate
Ailinglalap flying in 77 fighters. What joy. Plus the routine horde of PTs...Not unexpected.

In Burma, the big task force mellows considerably and turns into Rangoon!

Allies start moving 12 units across the river north of Rangoon. My big concentration is 23 miles out of Prome and will be waiting for him, I suspect it is simply a feint to stop movement into Rangoon (which still has the same 17 units present).

I will continue the withdraw in Burma to the first stop positions and continue to hold.

Rangoon will be visited by two surface groups, maybe three, depending how I break down my navy at Mergui, they will rush in and then head to Moulmein for disbanding, and I plan to have every fighter up and about at Moulmein.

Color me confused no more, but happy! Tomorrow will be a bloody day!

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 12:30:04 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

2-J is worth going for. The 5-J ... you need to plan for the engine change. Adding the 2x13.2mm CL is a big deal .. that's the equivalent of adding 4x50 cal F ... the 5-J has almost 2x the armament of any allied fighter. That alone is what keeps it a viable fighter through game end. And it can really punish 4E's in daylight bombing ... SR3 is just something you have to deal with as the IJ ... face it, most of your new AC models arriving after 6/44 are SR3 or higher.

If you have George, I would not spend the supply to get Jack. To me they are the same plane, different flavor. Get one or the other, but not both.

Not quite!

The climb of the Jack is huge. Makes it much better for point defense against sweeps especially. The final version had some very good days for me. the different engine for it is also potential important in the endgame. I like some of both. It's a cost, but not so much, really.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 2:15:55 PM

PaxMondo

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You have to maintain pools, factories, and do this for not very many groups. The climb is nice, but same as the Tojo. I don't ever duplicate roles, the IJ doesn't have the resources to do so. PArticularly with the IJN fighters where you don't have that many AC groups anyway. You have over 2x IJA fighter groups compared to IJN groups. YOu really do not want extra IJN models ....

Some players like to have planes to fit every little niche. Players decision. But, you spend more supply to do so. I've never seen an AAR where choosing the George over the Jack, or vice versa ever won or lost the war. I have seen countless AAR's where the IJ ran out of supply. Duplicating AC roles is symptomatic of inadequate supply management.

Will building both Jack and George run you out of supply? Of course not. But building them both indicates a willingness to waste supply (~100K in this example). That will lose the war for you.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 3:46:11 PM

Lowpe

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I broke the IJN fleet into two surface groups with 6 destroyers each. They are steaming into Rangoon, where no doubt they will hit my minefield, and then after hopefully savaging the Allied fleet, will retire to the safety of Moulmein.

There are several hundred fighters at Moulmein, and fighter bombers, who will endeavor to protect the groups.

Subs will loiter all over the area depending upon their detection level (the highest has 1/1).

If the Allies bomb Rangoon, I expect a lot of lost fighters.

In northern Burma, I am sending 150 bombers at Akyab with some escorts, where they are targeting the port facilities. This on the idea that the Allies can't be strong everywhere.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 4:31:12 PM

Lowpe

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RE: Jack vs George.

I am skipping the Jack totally to save on supplies. This, depite Jocke's advice that it was really the late war IJN fighter that he feared most in his game vs Obvert, mainly for its ability to climb and dive. And Obvert's excellent advice.

I have set some good supply goals, and currently I am on track to make them, and to do it will require sacrifice.

Should be some good fireworks this next turn with potentials at Rangoon, Akyab, Nauru, within 10 hexes of Ponape and Karachi. Need a good day!

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 10/6/2014 6:43:39 PM >

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 4:47:48 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Will building both Jack and George run you out of supply? Of course not. But building them both indicates a willingness to waste supply (~100K in this example). That will lose the war for you.

Unless conserving supply to do so, having been through this before!

It really depends on the game, the player preferences and so much else. But in PBEM getting a little bit of an edge against sweepers is HUGE, and not something you face too often against the AI. This is just one of those things that becomes apparent as the player you're up against starts to use what they learn about your planes against you. Diversity, and the ability to change them in and out of roles allows for deception, breaks the rhythm your opponent gets into and can in fact get you better results. It at least can keep them guessing, and in the end, when one of your engine factories is blown to bits, that extra supply you wasted building Jacks that use a different engine you have 800 of in the pools is sudden'y a great investment!

In my second long game I'm not building as many Jacks (you can check the AAR I've just updated for a look at RnD) but I do want that last version for Home Defense CAP. Against the late war fighters the only thing that helps is numbers, and the climb of the Jacks gets them up in force so the other better planes like the Franks can make it into battle without getting swamped and do their damage too. I thought the Sam would be as good as the Jack in this role, but it's just not for some reason. Great plane, but each has their roles.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 4:52:18 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

RE: Jack vs George.

I am skipping the Jack totally to save on supplies. This, depite Jocke's advice that it was really the late war IJN fighter that he feared most in his game vs Obvert, mainly for its ability to climb and dive. And Obvert's excellent advice.

I have set some good supply goals, and currently I am on track to make them, and to do it will require sacrifice.

Should be some good fireworks this next turn with potentials at Rangoon, Akyab, Nauru, within 10 hexes of Ponape. Need a good day!

Applause for making supply goals and sticking to them!

In my first game I really didn't care about making it all of the way or winning at all costs. i just wanted to try stuff to learn and get into the late game to see how things played out. All of that was worth it, and now I too have some supply goals! I'm on track to meet mine as well, happily, but the Allies are only now ramping up, so that could change quickly.

I'll be interested to see how you like the mid-war against the new Allied monsters and using service 3 fighters for the most part. It's tough, but you can do it. One way to save supply is not always accepting battle. Plane replacement cost A LOT of supply as well. As I learned the hard way.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 5:39:03 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Applause for making supply goals and sticking to them!

In my first game I really didn't care about making it all of the way or winning at all costs. i just wanted to try stuff to learn and get into the late game to see how things played out. All of that was worth it, and now I too have some supply goals! I'm on track to meet mine as well, happily, but the Allies are only now ramping up, so that could change quickly.

I'll be interested to see how you like the mid-war against the new Allied monsters and using service 3 fighters for the most part. It's tough, but you can do it. One way to save supply is not always accepting battle. Plane replacement cost A LOT of supply as well. As I learned the hard way.

Your AAR is one of the reasons I am so keyed on supplies!

I have abandoned the air mostly to the Allies, they bomb me repeatedly to no defense other than AA usually so I guess I have been avoiding battle a lot lately. I fear his pools...

The George is SR3, but the Army fighters I will be relying upon are SR1 (OscarIV, Ki-100I), but I have had two squadrons of SR3 Tonies flying around and have gotten used to using them in rear areas.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 10/6/2014 6:40:28 PM >

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 8:21:53 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Applause for making supply goals and sticking to them!

In my first game I really didn't care about making it all of the way or winning at all costs. i just wanted to try stuff to learn and get into the late game to see how things played out. All of that was worth it, and now I too have some supply goals! I'm on track to meet mine as well, happily, but the Allies are only now ramping up, so that could change quickly.

I'll be interested to see how you like the mid-war against the new Allied monsters and using service 3 fighters for the most part. It's tough, but you can do it. One way to save supply is not always accepting battle. Plane replacement cost A LOT of supply as well. As I learned the hard way.

Your AAR is one of the reasons I am so keyed on supplies!

I have abandoned the air mostly to the Allies, they bomb me repeatedly to no defense other than AA usually so I guess I have been avoiding battle a lot lately. I fear his pools...

The George is SR3, but the Army fighters I will be relying upon are SR1 (OscarIV, Ki-100I), but I have had two squadrons of SR3 Tonies flying around and have gotten used to using them in rear areas.

Are you not using the Frank soon? That will be the only fighter you want to use once you see what it can do comparative to the others. The Ki-100 is a good bomber killer, and low layered CAP plane, but it won't do much up high vs the Allied sweepers unfortunately. The Frank will and the 'r' version is a killer.

The Oscar just is too fragile for much of anything, even with it's two CL cannons late, but it's a must have for LR escort.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 8:53:42 PM

Lowpe

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Frank will be end of the year, very early 44. Not much acceleration at all.

To say I inherited a mess in r&d would be an understatement.

I will have Oscar IV next month.

Right now I just try to avoid his sweeps...

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/6/2014 9:24:49 PM

Lowpe

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The plan...but no plan survives contact with the enemy. What will happen?

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/7/2014 10:32:26 AM

Lowpe

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May 25, 1943

Rangoon: Tanaka led from the front in the mighty Ashigara. The last naval battle Tanaka was in his poor light cruiser took a magazine hit and exploded in the opening minutes of a great ambush meticulously planned by Tanaka and betrayed by an open hatch, but not this time. Not this time.

Leading his squadron in a complicated attack vector Tanaka was past the destroyer screens, hitting the Java once with her main guns and then was in among the sheep.

Tanaka would not be denied!