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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/7/2014 10:48:13 AM

Lowpe

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Dawn comes quickly and the following surface group never makes Rangoon, and Tanaka decides it is time to leave...the harbor is burning mess of burning oil, sinking ships, and crying sailors.

The Yudachi is sent back to Moulmein, and then a contact is spotted: two destroyers and one merchant ship.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/7/2014 11:07:46 AM

Lowpe

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Tanaka is steaming towards Moulmein and more fighter coverage...

but the Yudachi and Wakaba are broken off trying to desperately save stricken Yudachi and is left behind....

Intelligence assessments are sent to Combined Fleet and early reports show one more Allied unit in Rangoon...but it is probably not full strength!

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/7/2014 11:33:19 AM

obvert

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Nice work! He didn't have any surface ships protecting here?

That TF is not good force management on his part, and you took good advantage. I'd never put so many good CL/DD into a slow transport TF that could easily be escorted by AM/PC/KV. The combat ships can then follow and provide actual support by getting the freedom to move. You might have still crushed the lot, but it was certainly easy this way. Nice job!

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/7/2014 11:35:01 AM

Lowpe

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Burma...

Allied bombers hit ground troops in Prome and south and get a bloody nose from reacting Japanese fighters...

Yudachi sinks...

Convoy is fleeing...

Allies now looking to make a general advance across the river...

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/7/2014 12:59:54 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

Nice work! He didn't have any surface ships protecting here?

That TF is not good force management on his part, and you took good advantage. I'd never put so many good CL/DD into a slow transport TF that could easily be escorted by AM/PC/KV. The combat ships can then follow and provide actual support by getting the freedom to move. You might have still crushed the lot, but it was certainly easy this way. Nice job!

Too bad the other surface group decided to be careful and not go in.

You can see why I was so confused about what the intentions of this task force was...it simply didn't make any sense.

I managed to sink a Fletcher on the cheap! Gotta love that.

EDIT: I actually got two Fletchers.

I am thinking of sending the second surface group, that chickened out of going into Rangoon, at flank speed and try to catch the ships as they flee...and then either have it head out into the Bay of Bengal or send it to Ramree and disband. Not sure yet. fMaybe I will bombard Rangoon instead.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 10/8/2014 12:03:10 AM >

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/7/2014 1:53:10 PM

PaxMondo

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Nice surface action. Get those DD's back to port for quick repair ...

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/7/2014 2:01:34 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

In my second long game I'm not building as many Jacks (you can check the AAR I've just updated for a look at RnD) but I do want that last version for Home Defense CAP. Against the late war fighters the only thing that helps is numbers, and the climb of the Jacks gets them up in force so the other better planes like the Franks can make it into battle without getting swamped and do their damage too. I thought the Sam would be as good as the Jack in this role, but it's just not for some reason. Great plane, but each has their roles.

Which makes me wonder as I have seen similar things ... Sam should be as good or better than Jack based upon the numbers, but not always. .. no real way to test this hypothesis, but I suspect that somehow air groups have predispositions. Like RnD factories. Some go faster than others. Never the same ones, but once they start fast, they seem to always repair quick. Seems like air groups have something similar. I've had 6 groups of Tojos with very similar leaders and overall pilot exp, but they don't act the same. A couple of them are just MONSTERS. Huge kill rates. The others, they're ok, but not great. Why? Nothing in the numbers that I can see, so my guess is that there are some random elements in the background that are set upon new game.

Anyway, in some games I have Tojo's do great, other games Frank, other games Sam, ... I haven't seen any pattern except Gary's beloved randomness.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/7/2014 9:16:12 PM

Lowpe

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Burma:

Fighter presence will be maintained, but lessened, at Moulmein. 150 Fighters will be based out of Toungoo looking to bloody Allied bombers some more, while others along the coast to protect the cruisers which will bombard Rangoon and then flee south. An escort force is shepherding the damaged destroyers back to Singers....

Only subs will pursue the damaged Allied fleet...I thought about sending a fleet after them and routing it out to the Bay of Bengal or to Ramree, but too many things could go wrong.

The Tone is spotted off Karachi and will retreat...

Task Force Nagato is spotted off Nauru and will retreat...

KB is dark in PI.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/7/2014 10:12:03 PM

Lowpe

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Some quick notes:

Oil in the HI has risen steadily for the last three days...only getting shipments from Fusan and Hokkaido. Port Arthur oil continues to grow pulling across China and perhaps as far as Indochina and has topped 300,000. Will have to look closer and try to figure it out.

Prome should be abandoned this day, most of the troops head SE only some to the NE. This should really strengthen the jungle river line. I moved some units north out of Rangoon to strengthen that hex, but I probably didn't need too since I expect the Allies to cancel their movement when Prome is emptied. I am expecting a movement out of Prome to the NE by the Allies getting their tanks into the open SW of Magwe. But the Allies are too late, I think, as the Magwe push is more than half way back out of the Jungle Ridge line along the dirt path.

I am still somewhat surprised that the Allies were moving tanks on ships into Rangoon...or maybe they were pulling them back. Hard to know for sure, but there is one more unit in Rangoon than the previous day. He has the road...why not use it?

Rangoon was nice, but in the grand scheme of things fairly meaningless in slowing down the Allies unless the bloody nose causes the Allies to play more cautiously. I will never forget reading Obverts and Jockes AAR where Obvert pulled off a crushing KB strike in mid 45, but Jocke was happy because he had landed his invasion troops ok, and he didn't really care about losing the ships that much.

I am expecting the Allies to send the battered Fleet to Akyab, with lots of fighter coverage, and for them to continue to bomb the IJA at Prome and along the river to attempt to stop my movement...hopefully he doesn't sweep much since my fighters are up in the air...after this next day all fighters will turn tail and hide.

In China it is Whack-a-mole time as Chinese corp behind the front line swarm out to cut roads and rails. In general it hasn't effected supply, so I am only slowly destroying them and not letting it distract me from my major effort.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 10/7/2014 11:14:00 PM >

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/7/2014 11:12:24 PM

Lowpe

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Plane research:

I am going to add a Ki102-b research facility. Better than Nick, I plan to use them in the same manner. Normally available 11/44.

I keep waiting for my Nicks in the Marshalls to make a low level attack against some of the Allied small task forces in the area, but for whatever reason they fail to engage. This last day they failed to find the target due to weather or distance.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 2:43:52 AM

topeverest

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Well done - you need to keep taking these opportunities. The allies need to believe they need to provide fleet coverage on everything for as long as possible

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Tanaka is steaming towards Moulmein and more fighter coverage...

but the Yudachi and Wakaba are broken off trying to desperately save stricken Yudachi and is left behind....

Intelligence assessments are sent to Combined Fleet and early reports show one more Allied unit in Rangoon...but it is probably not full strength!

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 2:48:45 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

... I will never forget reading Obverts and Jockes AAR where Obvert pulled off a crushing KB strike in mid 45, but Jocke was happy because he had landed his invasion troops ok, and he didn't really care about losing the ships that much.

...

I was reviewing some ship production ... in most weeks in '43 the allies get more ships in one week than the IJ gets the entire year ... something that I always have to remember ... even sinking 300, 400 ships it only represents a few weeks of production ... the allies are still gaining ... and I can't sink 300 ships in a few weeks ... a banner year would be 300 ships ...

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 3:56:33 AM

topeverest

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Late war inevitably comes. I think its arrival is as much tied to the allied LBA / SBA airframes as it is to their CV capacity by summer 43. One could argue that Late war is just around the corner in this game. The allied player deploys forces in deliberate large bunches that are not stoppable without a maximum empire response. You are almost being dared to have that decisive battle. While this isn't the death by 1000 cuts speed victory approach to the allies, it is still quite effective and leaving the empire with few options but decisive battle or delaying action. I will continue to watch with intent and hope that the allies make egregious error that can be exploited.

IMHO, it is hard to evade the fact the longer empire life is inexorably linked to disproportionate allied cv losses in 42 to delay middle war several extra months.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 3:57:40 AM

topeverest

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What are the victory conditions you are playing to?

What month would you consider empire victory if you make it that far?

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 9:23:05 AM

ny59giants

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"IF" your opponent is smart, he should have a Command HQ in southern Burma with over 20k in supply at a base to allow a divided Indian division to begin the "Ind Inf Section 43" upgrades to the '43 version. I think they became available in 3/43 at 60/month. So, he should be doing this at a steady clip. The change in Anti-Soft value is small (18 to 20), but the Anti-Armor goes from 15 to 75. Trouble for your tanks!!

I say this to ensure you place your tank divisions and rgt in good terrain with forts to help them survive.

KUDOS on your surface results. Killing the Lee/Grant/Shermans in ground combat is getting hard for you, so sinking them at sea is a good way. The Allies don't get that many each month to afford this loss.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 10:16:52 AM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

What are the victory conditions you are playing to?

What month would you consider empire victory if you make it that far?

No idea really, just trying to survive. And have fun.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 10:43:49 AM

Lowpe

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No turn...I suspect the Allies are planning extra hard to punish me. It is funny to read extra importance in the speed of turn flips...lately we have been like clockwork.

Actually, he has to react to a lot on the seas: IJN task forces off Karachi, Nauru, Rangoon, then he has to move all his little Chinese Corps, organize his Marshalls forces post invasion, worry about where the KB is, ponder his Burma invasion, move all his subs, worry about his supply convoys and upgrades. Allied work load just gets big and bigger.

Below is a list of recently sunk ships. According to tracker I am just shy of sinking 800 Allied ships. Overall this game has been a real bloodbath on the land, air and sea.

All those 20cm hits are from the Ashigara. Her sister ship didn't fire much at all...this seems quite common when I task two ships together like this, one seems to stay in reserve...

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 10/8/2014 11:52:06 AM >

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 10:45:35 AM

Lowpe

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I think that Dutch SS might be one of the big minelayers...can't remember for sure, but that would be very nice.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 10:56:49 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

No turn...I suspect the Allies are planning extra hard to punish me. It is funny to read extra importance in the speed of turn flips...lately we have been like clockwork.

Actually, he has to react to a lot on the seas: IJN task forces off Karachi, Nauru, Rangoon, then he has to move all his little Chinese Corps, organize his Marshalls forces post invasion, worry about where the KB is, ponder his Burma invasion, move all his subs, worry about his supply convoys and upgrades. Allied work load just gets big and bigger.

You forgot; check for air group withdrawals, ship withdrawals, device pools to see if upgrades are happening, then all of the regular logistics like moving piles and piles of stuff you'll never have as Japan to forward bases, and sending all of the newly arrived engineers and base forces somewhere even though every base already has several. Then there's reading all of the SIGINT, deciding what to do about it, and in the middle of that realizing you have a TF that's been sitting in the UK for several turns that needs to be loaded because the base has 1,508,427 supply and you may as well use it.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 11:05:50 AM

Lowpe

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And people are afraid to play Japan. Go figure!

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 11:51:02 AM

Lowpe

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Burma strategy evolving:

My latest round count of Allied units in Burma is 130 from Chittagong and south. At Chittagong, there are 72K troops, 670 guns, 750 vehicles, and 26 units. Some are moving south east down the road to Akyab.

I am also almost done my first withdraw in Burma. Other than at Magwe, all bases in northern Burma are left with one aviation support unit, one AA, and the garrison is in railroad mode ready to move to Moulmein/Pegu at a moments notice. Construction engineers will race around to repair damaged airfields, and will also be in the jungle helping the troops dig in. Paratroopers stand ready to reinforce any need, and rear area bases are becoming paratrooper proof.

The Magwe push troops are making solid progress in returning to Magwe, and this is 3 infantry divisons plus support units. This force is going to leave Burma and head for second lines and reserves.

Prome will be abandoned: the new line will run Rangoon and to the north east along the river in nice jungle terrain.

My goal is changing to creating an attritional jungle defense in depth while avoiding an amphibious invasion at Tavoy and south as I slowly, slowly, retreat. It needs to be a slow retreat since I want to keep oil flowing from the SRA until June 1944. Tough goal.

I want the Allies to bleed and over commit here without pulling off a scary amphibious landing that threatens the whole Burma Army. I like defending in jungle terrain, or jungle ridge, with indestructible forts and almost immune to aerial bombardments. I am hard pressed to come up with a better place to fight than here...except for the lousy threat of a landing that is. And paratroopers.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 12:29:07 PM

topeverest

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I don't know what you mean by over commit in Burma. relative to what standard, and how is it good for the empire?

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 12:38:42 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

I don't know what you mean by over commit in Burma. relative to what standard, and how is it good for the empire?

If the Allies are sending large numbers of combat units to Burma, it's less units that can be preparing for amphibious landings behind his lines.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 12:46:39 PM

topeverest

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But the allies have ground units to burn at this point in the war. How do we know the enemy has overcommitted in Burma versus just doing a better job of keeping combat units at the front?

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 1:16:08 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

But the allies have ground units to burn at this point in the war. How do we know the enemy has overcommitted in Burma versus just doing a better job of keeping combat units at the front?

They may have ground units to burn, but they're burning them in the most inefficent manner possible.

There's no need for a commitment to Burma as large as we're seeing here. Tiemanj is trying to kick the front door in with all the strength he can gather, when he really should have someone knocking on the door while everyone else climbs in a window.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 1:54:10 PM

Lowpe

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If I were to attack Burma, and have Rangoon, and Port Blair, I would go about it all differently than a head on attack across rivers into jungle after jungle after jungle.

1.I would take Ramree Island. Yes, it kind of is a prison camp, but it has been very useful for scouting, in the past fighters, and as a port to hide in. No reason to do it amphibiously, just march across and take the shock attack. Valuable as another base for the Allies, supply dump, etc.
2.Build up the airfields, done.
3.Pin Japanese army units down across the front � try to sucker a lot of Japanese there.
4.Distract KB into the Central Pacific somehow. Probably some kind of sacrifice, 2nd action.
5.Hit Tavoy or south with as big an amphibious invasion as I could. Use paratroopers to cut Singer/Bangkok/Chiang Mai railways. March on Ayuthia and aim for Hanoi primarily and Singers secondarily.

There is more to it than that, but it is the crux...

Personally, I don't really like a huge active Burma front, especially in 1943. I just don't think that is what the game is about...but it can be a devastating strategy. Ask Crackeraces - read his AAR.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 5:53:58 PM

Lowpe

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May 26, 1943

Some half hearted night bombing by the Allies. The weather in Burma is generally atrocious and the heavy rains, severe thunderstorms probably do a really good job in limiting the night bombing.

Near Wake Island

Wake Island is getting a unit of AA, the small task force is shepherded by 2 destroyers and there are several reactions during night and early morning, when a splinter of Oscar IIas find the Allied surface ships and strafe them.

Although not trained in low naval, but decent stats in strafe, the pilots riddle the Bagley with 12.7mg hits and plant a 250 gp bomb amidships. This cost us 3 Oscars.

Then, performing brilliantly, the two escorting destroyers closes with the Americans and get a solid lick in or two before retiring all the while the small amphibious unit avoid the Americans.

A good encounter.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 10/8/2014 6:56:01 PM >

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 6:00:45 PM

Lowpe

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The Allies get a Lightning sweep in, but I return the favor by intercepting a lightly escorted bomber run near Prome shooting down 20 Airacobras and a half dozen bombers. For the day I lose 10 less planes than the Allies.

Burma, the troops are out of Prome...now only to get the Magwe push troops back to the lines and safety and I am good to go in this theater I think.

My bombardment of Rangoon is pretty weak, and a second group only moved one hex from Moulmein instead of bombing. Luckily no attacks, but I did have have CAP in the area.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 6:10:12 PM

Lowpe

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Task Force Nagato was in the area yesterday, actually for a few days, they were supporting a CA force that was running into Nauru each night hoping to catch the Allied cruiser bombardment force or his minesweepers.

Unfortunately, they were spotted in their holding position west of Nauru and now they are long gone, but the Allies respond the following day with this nice group of 3 task forces looking for an aerial ambush.

My poor sub tries but fails miserably. A good sub too, not how I want to lose them.

Sometimes I think you need to show the flag, so to speak, just to worry the Americans a little. I am flying the forces out of Ocean and Nauru just too hard to supply and impossible to really hold with Allied 4Es.

I snaked a torpedo or two in the old Colorado back up in the Kurile campaign....darn Yankee shipyards.

Anyhow, learning the patterns of the Americans will help set up a favorable attack I think.

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RE: Burma Bungle! - 10/8/2014 6:22:20 PM

Lowpe

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Of general interest American subs seem less active lately...knock on wood.

The J1N1-s Irving NF advances a month. I should have her July 1 I think to go with George. Can't tell you how much enjoyment I get out of getting a new plane. Oscar IV in June...I am hoping those dual center cannons will really rip up the British in Burma when I decide to use them. Maybe the front will go quiet by then....who knows.

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