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more imput about SO ATR Sqd - 1/11/2003 2:37:30 AM

Gallo Rojo

Posts: 731
Joined: 10/26/2000
From: Argentina
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Ok ...
the unit is under MISC units.

AT-Rifle. Plt/Co

Armored Infantry------SO AT-Rifle Sqdx12 (men)

Weapons:
PTDR-AT Rifle
PPSh-41 SMG
PTDR-AT Rifle
PTDR-AT Rifle

Best,

Gallo

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Post #: 91

- 2/23/2003 12:03:47 AM

Trey

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From: Marietta, GA
Status: offline

Any news on the update?

Trey

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Post #: 92

- 2/23/2003 2:06:53 AM

m10bob

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H2H is better than sausage and suarkraut....We are chomping at the bit for the "update"..........:D

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Post #: 93

- 2/24/2003 7:40:59 AM

Panzer Leo

Posts: 526
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From: Braunschweig/Germany
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trey
[B]Any news on the update?

Trey [/B][/QUOTE]

Here's what happened so far:

- reduced spotting and raised morale (resulting in stiffer infantry)
- Finnish and Russian OOB reworked
- Sniper lethality increased
- Bazookas reworked (reduced range)
- lethality of handgrenades increased, amount available reduced
- crew raised in value (15pts) and small arms decreased in lethality
- small arms added to all guns for close defense
- rare and what-if equipement for Germany available for purchase in the Norway OOB from Jan 41 on
- what-if German equipement added (like X-7 AT rocket or Kingtiger with night vision and rangefinder)
- many little adds from requests
- all scenarios and campaigns made for H2H will be put into the patch
- a bundle of ready-to-go maps for PBEM (vic hexes and start lines preset on designed maps)

Right now we're working on the winter camo for Germany, Russia and Finnland.

I'm sure I forgot to mention a few changes... :D

The patch will take at least a few weeks more, as some testing and final changes are still required.

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Mir nach, ich folge euch !

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Post #: 94

- 2/24/2003 7:48:19 AM

M4Jess

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From: DC
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quicky fir P.Leo

please double check Russian Bunkers..there is NO ammo for the ATRs!

Thanx!

Jess

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Post #: 95

- 2/24/2003 8:17:04 AM

Panzer Leo

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by M4 Jess
[B]quicky fir P.Leo

please double check Russian Bunkers..there is NO ammo for the ATRs!

Thanx!

Jess [/B][/QUOTE]

Got it...observation post now has ammo :)

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Post #: 96

- 2/24/2003 8:45:41 AM

M4Jess

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;)

thanks

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Post #: 97

- 2/24/2003 5:50:22 PM

Belisarius

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panzer Leo
[B]Here's what happened so far:

- reduced spotting and raised morale (resulting in stiffer infantry)
[/B][/QUOTE]

*cringe* That's gonna make advances even tougher than it already is! Do we really want to premier defensive play? :confused:

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate all the work and effort you put into perfecting this, Leo. I like all other changes, but is spotting really a problem w/ the current H2H? I know I can't see enemy troops for shiat if I don't step on them... :rolleyes:

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Post #: 98

- 2/24/2003 6:29:41 PM

Panzer Leo

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]*cringe* That's gonna make advances even tougher than it already is! Do we really want to premier defensive play? :confused:

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate all the work and effort you put into perfecting this, Leo. I like all other changes, but is spotting really a problem w/ the current H2H? I know I can't see enemy troops for shiat if I don't step on them... :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

Interesting you find advances/assaults more difficult then delaying/defending. My experience is that they are way easier to plan and execute and also usually result in a higher win then being on the defending side.
Over at the Blitz Wargaming Club I got some 30 reported battles now, mostly being advance/assault battles played as mirror games. I never lost a battle when I was attacking, but got beaten pretty bad by players when I was on defense.
And no, I'm by far not an agressive master of attack...actually I used to be way better in defense already back in the old days of SPWW2, but as it is now in 7.1 and H2H I always find it much harder to achieve a victory in defense against skilled players then on the attack...
This was noticed by many (usually the most experienced players of the ladder) at the Blitz and was requested as a change for H2H.
I'm testing the new infantry behaviour for several weeks now with different players and all I can say up to now...the balance between vehicles and infantry hadn't felt that good for a real long time now...

If you fear, that it is a bit tougher to play, I have to admit you're right...it simply involves a bit more tactics...making sure you got close recon elements and leaders with superior spotting next to your advancing troops and also the use of indirect fire becomes more important - when you can't see an enemy, fire at where he's supposed to be...sometimes he gets hit, sometimes not...sometimes he fires back and you see him :)

All in all infantry is now more dangereous to vehicles driving around without support...assaults with AT-weapons are very successfull against careless tankers...

This change was also a reason, why I didn't want to make a change on the speed of vehicles...the main idea was to reduce the speed, to get more battle appropriate speeds and not these fast adhoc rushes, although in some situations I consider the high speed to be justified and technically absolutely realistic...
But these speed rushes are now limited a bit by poorer searching...you just don't know what you can stumble onto :D

(...and if you don't like it, just change the pref setting - the whole spotting thing is just that - a default setting, nothing more)

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Post #: 99

- 2/24/2003 7:05:05 PM

Belisarius

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Okies, nice to see there's an explanation to it. Guess I'll have to get better at recon. :p

My pet peeve is the opfire. As the game is built like it is, you'll have an effective stop every turn in your advance, when all types of defending units can blaze away at the attackers without having to worry about getting shot at. ATGs will get really tough to deal with. Almost impossible to spot at range, and they'll turn recon elements into shish-kebab before you even get a chance to opfire.

I'll try it when it's ready.

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Post #: 100

- 2/25/2003 12:19:39 AM

rbrunsman

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My concern with reduced spotting is that meeting engagements will turn into "stagnant" engagements because players will want the other player to break his back upon the hidden troops before moving out. It will be like this, Player A says, "Come on, attack me!" Player B says, "No, you attack me!" The way it is now, you are still rewarded for being aggressive. If you start getting rewarded for being cautious, you will take much of the fun out of the game.

I agree that the Defender almost always loses. But that is a function of the way the game works when you let the AI make your Op Fire decisions for you. If you set the Op Fire too low, a whole column of armor could dash right past you and you wouldn't even know it. If you set it too long, you won't have any Op Fire left to protect you from an Engineer squad in an HT dropped off right next to your "hidden" units, etc...

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Post #: 101

- 2/25/2003 12:45:46 AM

VikingNo2

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I agree with, RB and B-man( sounds like a rap group LOL ), spotting is hard enough now, I think on the spotting side you have it right on, hard but not too hard. This would seriously effect meeting engagements. maybe just increasing morale. The hidden .50cal or 12.7mm is a killer now. But this is just my two cents

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Post #: 102

- 2/25/2003 1:30:22 AM

Panzer Leo

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Don't worry that it will be too dominant...

There just do happen too many things in searching now, that can't be:

The moving Rangers or Fuesiliere, e.g.: they run full speed and spot entrenched infantry at 100-150m...is more the rule then the exception when the other infantry is not elite, too...

Or spotting dug in tanks while on the move and things like that...

It's pretty much like the all seeing eye right now...there're no surprises and that is actually what it makes less realistic...sometimes you simply pass a unit by 20m and if it doesn't shoot at you, you will not notice it...when did that ever happen in the game before ?

The behaviour now is:

Units that do not shoot at you are pretty hard to spot and when you found them they get lost more often the next turn...

But if they fire at you, they're pretty easy to spot.

If you want to test it, set searching to 50% in your preferences...that is exactly what it will be...you might adjust your tactics a bit, but it's way more realistic and after you get used to it even more fun...:)

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Post #: 103

- 2/25/2003 1:31:17 AM

Squirmer

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My 2 pence worth ...

I don't think the problem is with spotting, I am all for increasing the difficulty (more realistic). Attackers will benefit from it the same as defenders.

IMHO the issue is the ineffectiveness of the Z key (indirect fire). Not to mention the strange noise it makes for small arms. I've no idea if this something that can be changed without coding, somehow I doubt it.

Oh and while I'm here I don't suppose there's any chance of getting rid of infantry smoke either ... :rolleyes:

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Post #: 104

- 2/25/2003 1:36:42 AM

Panzer Leo

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Squirmer
[B]My 2 pence worth ...

I don't think the problem is with spotting, I am all for increasing the difficulty (more realistic). Attackers will benefit from it the same as defenders.

IMHO the issue is the ineffectiveness of the Z key (indirect fire). Not to mention the strange noise it makes for small arms. I've no idea if this something that can be changed without coding, somehow I doubt it.

Oh and while I'm here I don't suppose there's any chance of getting rid of infantry smoke either ... :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't find the Z-key so useless...it delivers some suppression and I get the one or other kill from time to time... :D

The noise is strange, though...maybe I can do something about it...

...the smoke...I wish I could, but no chance :(

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Post #: 105

- 2/25/2003 3:14:15 AM

Wolfleader

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The experimental WW2 weapons that the Germans, Russians and Allies were working on like the Vampir IR sights, Sperber Panthers, the Maus tanks, the Ratte, etc... would be nifty for those of us who wish to simulate the war continuing after 1945.

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Post #: 106

- 2/25/2003 3:49:29 AM

Belisarius

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Wolf: The Maus, at least, is already there! :)

Leo: I've got one final wish: Pleeeease change the sound for the Panther - it sounds nothing like any other AFV, more like someone trying to use a rusty old hacksaw on a steel rod.

(ok ok I can do it myself but .... :p )

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Post #: 107

- 2/25/2003 4:12:42 AM

Wolfleader

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I noticed that the IR Panthers were deleted in the mod, still gotta check out the Maus there.

The Maus in SPWAW v7.1 was innacurately modeled, the Maus was only armed with a 128mm cannon, a 50mm coaxial cannon and no MG. There was also a variant of the Maus (that existed in the drawing boards anyways) that was armed with 2 88mm cannons.

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Post #: 108

- 2/25/2003 8:18:37 PM

Panzer Leo

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The Maus modeled incorrect ? I got my info on the Maus form "Achtung Panzer" and according to the article there the SPWAW Maus is o.k. !?

Rattling Panther sound ? I'll see what I can do...I just stumbled across some new move sounds :D

The what-if equipement will include the "Kommando Falke" formation...a few Panther Uhu, 251 Falke, 251 Uhu and infantry with StG 44 and Vampir...should be enough for all nightvision freaks :D

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Post #: 109

- 2/25/2003 8:29:11 PM

RockinHarry

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panzer Leo
[B]I don't find the Z-key so useless...it delivers some suppression and I get the one or other kill from time to time... :D

The noise is strange, though...maybe I can do something about it...

...the smoke...I wish I could, but no chance :( [/B][/QUOTE]

thanks for coming up with the smoke issue (again :D )!

Smoke loads are firmly tied to the slot1 (primary) infantry weapon in infantry units! Only scenario designers can edit the amount of infantry smoke loads in their scenarios, but generated battles or campaigns can�t be changed, regarding infantry smoke loads....unless you remove the slot1 primary weapon from infantry units in the OOB�s concerned! Well....nobody wants that, don�t we? :eek:

But.....what can be improved is "crew" units popping smoke!:) If the primary infantry weapon (Misc small arms) is deleted from slot1 and put into slot2 instead, then they don�t pop smoke and also the AIP does not handle them offensivley anymore. At least these were my observations while running some tests the last time.

I think the AIP doesn�t like to throw units into the frontlines, when they lack a (primary) slot1 weapon.

There�s some bug that prevents it getting working all of the time. At this time I only can say that it probably has to do with HEAT rounds destroying a vehicle that has smoke throwing capability. Somehow when a vehicle is destroyed by HEAT, the crew bails immediately and is hit a second time(!) from the same round, pops smoke and retreats. All that happens in the same action. :eek: I guess when the crew bails, some smoke round is carried over from the destroyed tank and drops it once, when forced to retreat by the mentioned HEAT round damage. I guess this "bug" is a result from tweaking the "secondary damage" or "missed round" game routines for the final V7.1 SPWAW mech.exe. (all IMHO ;) ).
As said...I tested this with crews that already have the slot1 weapon moved to slot2!

hopefully more people could run tests with these tweaked crew units, so that we get a firm proof on the above mentioned observations!:)

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Post #: 110

- 2/25/2003 9:21:55 PM

RockinHarry

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panzer Leo
[B]Here's what happened so far:

- reduced spotting and raised morale (resulting in stiffer infantry)
- Finnish and Russian OOB reworked
- Sniper lethality increased
- Bazookas reworked (reduced range)
- lethality of handgrenades increased, amount available reduced
- crew raised in value (15pts) and small arms decreased in lethality
- small arms added to all guns for close defense
- rare and what-if equipement for Germany available for purchase in the Norway OOB from Jan 41 on
- what-if German equipement added (like X-7 AT rocket or Kingtiger with night vision and rangefinder)
- many little adds from requests
- all scenarios and campaigns made for H2H will be put into the patch
- a bundle of ready-to-go maps for PBEM (vic hexes and start lines preset on designed maps)

Right now we're working on the winter camo for Germany, Russia and Finnland.

I'm sure I forgot to mention a few changes... :D

The patch will take at least a few weeks more, as some testing and final changes are still required. [/B][/QUOTE]

I see the point when H2H (I mean hotseat and PBEM) players want self defense weapons for their AT guns ect., but when it comes to play vs. the AIP the this extra weapons put the AI at a serious disadvantage as it simply is unable to use them properly! I always get p****d when AT guns unnecessarily reveal their positions by shooting their secondary weapons at long range! A human player wouldn�t do (intentionally), but tell the AIP?!;)
I think this was the reason for deleting the secondary wepons from the V7.11 OOBs IMO.

A proper tactic to defend your AT guns would be either to give em some extra medium machine gun unit nearby or use shoot and scoot tactics!;)

The "Misc small arms" weapon isn�t that bad actually when compared with other small arm weapons, so I won�t change it! Does it have a range of 6? Maybe even reducing its range would be a better idea (see crew smoke posting)!

As scenario designer, designing scenarios for play vs. the AIP I try to use evrery means to improve the AIP�s play! One of my most preferred is to give the defending AIP infantry some short range rifle when available, like the Kar98 carbine for weapon slot1. Why? This rifle has a (effective) range of six hexes and the AIP don�t wastes shooting at max range (most rifles 10-12 hexes) anymore. Unfortunately there are few OOB�s that have short range versions available. What I mean is to add short range version rifles for all OOB�s, that can be used by scenario designers to improve AIP�s behavior.:)
Would be the M1 Garand, the Mosin Nagant, Lee Enfield and so on and so on.....

When investigating the OOB�s you very quickly find many unused weapons that can be changed to short range version rifles. There�s an excellent OOB editor, called STUKOBHACK (by Stuart Trounson), formerly available from Fabio Prado�s site. This editor has a nice feature, it can remove unused weapons with a single mouse click and all available free weapon slots can be seen at a glance!:)

Reducing amount of handgrenades is another good tweak for the H2H mod, thanks. :) IMO no more than 2-4 should be available, instead of the usual 4-12. Only occasion I could think where should be more handgrenades is infantry in prepared positions.

Please keep INF weapons like Panzerfaust 60/100 at their range of 2! Same reason as with short range rifles. The AIP simply is too stupid to use these weapons. It always shoots at max range, thus wasting most shots and revealing its defense positions. :rolleyes: I know it�s fun lobbing some panzerfaust or bazooka round into enemy positions, but the AIP does not know about it!;)

I know your mod is meant to be played mostly for PBEM and hotseat play, but please don�t forget scenario designers and people who fight the AIP!;)

BTW: Next Arsenal Raiders release will have some new scenario of mine added, including version designed for your H2H mod! Dont miss it!:)

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Post #: 111

- 2/26/2003 1:19:30 AM

Panzer Leo

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by RockinHarry
[B]I see the point when H2H (I mean hotseat and PBEM) players want self defense weapons for their AT guns ect., but when it comes to play vs. the AIP the this extra weapons put the AI at a serious disadvantage as it simply is unable to use them properly! I always get p****d when AT guns unnecessarily reveal their positions by shooting their secondary weapons at long range! A human player wouldn�t do (intentionally), but tell the AIP?!;)
I think this was the reason for deleting the secondary wepons from the V7.11 OOBs IMO.

A proper tactic to defend your AT guns would be either to give em some extra medium machine gun unit nearby or use shoot and scoot tactics!;)

The "Misc small arms" weapon isn�t that bad actually when compared with other small arm weapons, so I won�t change it! Does it have a range of 6? Maybe even reducing its range would be a better idea (see crew smoke posting)!

As scenario designer, designing scenarios for play vs. the AIP I try to use evrery means to improve the AIP�s play! One of my most preferred is to give the defending AIP infantry some short range rifle when available, like the Kar98 carbine for weapon slot1. Why? This rifle has a (effective) range of six hexes and the AIP don�t wastes shooting at max range (most rifles 10-12 hexes) anymore. Unfortunately there are few OOB�s that have short range versions available. What I mean is to add short range version rifles for all OOB�s, that can be used by scenario designers to improve AIP�s behavior.:)
Would be the M1 Garand, the Mosin Nagant, Lee Enfield and so on and so on.....

When investigating the OOB�s you very quickly find many unused weapons that can be changed to short range version rifles. There�s an excellent OOB editor, called STUKOBHACK (by Stuart Trounson), formerly available from Fabio Prado�s site. This editor has a nice feature, it can remove unused weapons with a single mouse click and all available free weapon slots can be seen at a glance!:)

Reducing amount of handgrenades is another good tweak for the H2H mod, thanks. :) IMO no more than 2-4 should be available, instead of the usual 4-12. Only occasion I could think where should be more handgrenades is infantry in prepared positions.

Please keep INF weapons like Panzerfaust 60/100 at their range of 2! Same reason as with short range rifles. The AIP simply is too stupid to use these weapons. It always shoots at max range, thus wasting most shots and revealing its defense positions. :rolleyes: I know it�s fun lobbing some panzerfaust or bazooka round into enemy positions, but the AIP does not know about it!;)

I know your mod is meant to be played mostly for PBEM and hotseat play, but please don�t forget scenario designers and people who fight the AIP!;)

BTW: Next Arsenal Raiders release will have some new scenario of mine added, including version designed for your H2H mod! Dont miss it!:) [/B][/QUOTE]

The Misc. Small Arms have a range of only 4 in the patch...exactly because of the reasons you mentioned...this way they will not give away their positions and crew effectiveness in battle is also reduced. The whole thing really is supposed to be a close defense - and 200m is a good range for that. The small arms will be quite ineffective in terms of kill, as the crews are usually not really the best infantry men...they're supposed to deliver some suppression and that is what they can do after what I saw in the tests...

The slot 2 idea sounds interesting...I will take a look at it...

PzFausts will keep their ranges, no change - Bazookas and PzSchrecks will have reduced ranges (7 as AT-team and 4 as squad weapon).

I wish we could recude the smoke rounds available to standard infantry...but I can't see a way...the amount we have right now is good for a platoon leader, but normal squads should have a max of 2 and more often none at all...

I'm looking forward to the scenarios :)

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Post #: 112

- 2/27/2003 6:53:07 PM

RockinHarry

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Panzer Leo
[B]The Misc. Small Arms have a range of only 4 in the patch...exactly because of the reasons you mentioned...this way they will not give away their positions and crew effectiveness in battle is also reduced. The whole thing really is supposed to be a close defense - and 200m is a good range for that. The small arms will be quite ineffective in terms of kill, as the crews are usually not really the best infantry men...they're supposed to deliver some suppression and that is what they can do after what I saw in the tests...

The slot 2 idea sounds interesting...I will take a look at it...

PzFausts will keep their ranges, no change - Bazookas and PzSchrecks will have reduced ranges (7 as AT-team and 4 as squad weapon).

I wish we could recude the smoke rounds available to standard infantry...but I can't see a way...the amount we have right now is good for a platoon leader, but normal squads should have a max of 2 and more often none at all...

I'm looking forward to the scenarios :) [/B][/QUOTE]

thanks. Your changes are a very good compromise!:)
No doubt, unless Mike wood gets his hands on the SPWAW code again (more than unlikely), we�ll stick with infantry smoke loads.:(
At least Freds WaWEdit (what else? :D ) enables us to correct a couple of things. :cool:

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Post #: 113

- 2/28/2003 9:52:49 AM

Daniel Oskar

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I would love to see the US M3 105mm howitzer included in the oob. It was assigned to the Cannon Company of infantry divisions from '42 through the end of the war. It was essentially a M2 howitzer with the barrel shortened by 27", and mounted on a M3 carriage, which was a modified version of the M8 carriage used for the 75mm M1A1 howitzer. The dodge weapons carrier was the prime mover, and the unit was organized with 3 2 gun platoons per company. My dad served in Cannon Co, 175th IR, 29th ID. His division history goes into some detail on the weapon's employment. While it could be used as an "extra" 105 bty for the regimental commander, platoons were often attached to the infantry Bn where it was used much in the manner of the german sIG33, in a direct fire role. The weapon was light enough to be manhandled in urban or hedgerow environments.

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Post #: 114

- 2/28/2003 4:19:53 PM

Squirmer

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Misc Small Arms to Slot 2 gets my vote. For crews only of course. Would this stop them assaulting tanks as well I wonder?

Whilst we're on about slots there are several British vehicles (Bren Carrier, Ram Kangaroo and FO Lynx come to mind) which have their single MG in slot 4. I don't know if there is a reason for this but I have noticed that in use the weapons seem to be less effective than they might be. :confused:

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Post #: 115

- 2/28/2003 6:31:02 PM

Panzer Leo

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Daniel Oskar
[B]I would love to see the US M3 105mm howitzer included in the oob. It was assigned to the Cannon Company of infantry divisions from '42 through the end of the war. It was essentially a M2 howitzer with the barrel shortened by 27", and mounted on a M3 carriage, which was a modified version of the M8 carriage used for the 75mm M1A1 howitzer. The dodge weapons carrier was the prime mover, and the unit was organized with 3 2 gun platoons per company. My dad served in Cannon Co, 175th IR, 29th ID. His division history goes into some detail on the weapon's employment. While it could be used as an "extra" 105 bty for the regimental commander, platoons were often attached to the infantry Bn where it was used much in the manner of the german sIG33, in a direct fire role. The weapon was light enough to be manhandled in urban or hedgerow environments. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds good to me...fortunately I got an open slot in the US, due to some reorganizing...
This way I can at least do a bit for the US arty, as I'm unable to add the tank mounted rockets like the Calliope to the onboard weapons, as someone asked for (technical problems in modeling the units)...
I think I even got a pic somewhere :)

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(in reply to Panzer Leo)

Post #: 116

- 2/28/2003 10:19:57 PM

Daniel Oskar

Posts: 123
Joined: 12/15/2000
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I'm afraid my scanner has gone to the great beyond, but I know there are B&W photos of the M3 howitzer in "Weapons of Patton's Armies" by Green if youo have access to it.

(in reply to Panzer Leo)

Post #: 117

- 3/1/2003 12:54:58 AM

Panzer Leo

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Braunschweig/Germany
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Daniel Oskar
[B]I'm afraid my scanner has gone to the great beyond, but I know there are B&W photos of the M3 howitzer in "Weapons of Patton's Armies" by Green if youo have access to it. [/B][/QUOTE]

Take a look at pic P08207...isn't that a M3 howitzer ?
That is what I had at least in mind to use for it...would be cool if someone confirms this to be right :)

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- 3/1/2003 3:30:48 AM

Daniel Oskar

Posts: 123
Joined: 12/15/2000
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Well, its not a real clear picture, but is sure looks like the M3, I think you may be in buisiness.

(in reply to Panzer Leo)

Post #: 119

- 3/1/2003 7:27:13 PM

Paska Taikuri

Posts: 9
Joined: 12/11/2002
From: Turku, Finland
Status: offline

Hello,

Last night, I played my first pbem-game ever with H2H. I have to say it rocked.

And for the wishlist, it has been said earlier, but it would be nice if the odd stuff for the Germans in the Czech OOB could be bought. Also, how about including some railroad guns? Another fine thing would be the German 88 on a Panzer IV chassis, which I've seen in some articles.

The Moerser "Karl" would also be something fun.

(in reply to Panzer Leo)

Post #: 120