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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Flashpoint Campaigns Series >> After Action Report >> RE: A Time To Dance

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RE: A Time To Dance - 12/1/2014 11:59:53 AM

HowieWowie

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Budd that's exactly the experience I had. I'm glad it wasn't me. As a new player when I read the OP's AAR I thought holly cow I really suck! There has obviously been some significant changes since the initial release of the game. I'd say that the scenario needs some tweaking. Which then makes me wonder about the other scenarios and how the changes have affected their balance?

(in reply to budd)

Post #: 31

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/1/2014 2:24:03 PM

Mad Russian

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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: **budd**

did you run that plan under 2.07? That plan could work IF you get that second bridge, which to this point i have not been able to do. I start a unit on the bridge in BN and that one blows just fine. I move a unit hasty to the second BN bridge and give the order to blow, but between giving the order and the next action time[usually around 30 minutes, which isn't unreasonable given demo prep time] the enemy takes me out every time, and then the ridge isn't as crucial. On limited orders you usually get 1 order,i've got 2 orders once, so your second turn your giving the blow bridge order and thats it. By that time your order cycle is increasing upwards and there inside your loop[they spend the whole game inside your loop].I tried a pretty close variation of that plan early on. You can do some damage from the ridge but if that second bridge is intact they get around you, damn AI .... I will try again...and again.

Using Limited Orders in A Time To Dance can make you lose both your hair and sleep at night...

Good Hunting.

MR

_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to budd)

Post #: 32

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/2/2014 12:32:06 AM

budd

Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HowieWowie

Budd that's exactly the experience I had. I'm glad it wasn't me. As a new player when I read the OP's AAR I thought holly cow I really suck! There has obviously been some significant changes since the initial release of the game. I'd say that the scenario needs some tweaking. Which then makes me wonder about the other scenarios and how the changes have affected their balance?

you playing with limited orders? I have tried 8 times and have yet to get a second bridge. The reds will pay....o yes they'll pay...I have a few more plans to try before i come back and whine about it again

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to HowieWowie)

Post #: 33

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/11/2014 4:24:56 AM

genehaynes

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Joined: 12/29/2002
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Hooray!! Just got a marginal victory. Played as NATO, limited rules, NS_AS "A Time to Dance". Here's what I did (One thing was a little "gamey" thoough):

1. First I placed 2 Humvees at the southern most bridge. One to blow that bridge. One moves WEST, across the Western most bridge to the SOUTHERN side of the river. On the next turn I ordered him to blow the western bridge. Those are the only bridges I attempted to blow. I gave up on trying any of the eastern bridges because even if you get to them on the initial turn, they have sit there for the rest of that turn plus 30min (The time it takes to blow a bridge without comming under fire) of the next turn. By that time they're usually destroyed.
2. I placed one Humvee on the southern side of the river on hex 1720. I order him to move hasty to hex 1526. This is the slightly "gamey" part....I plan to keep the 2 Humvees I now have on the southern side of the river out of sight unitl late in the game (i.e. When most, if not all of the Soviet forces are commited to capturing the victory hexes on the northern side of the river. When I'm confident it's ok to move from cover I use the HUmvees to capture both 1500pt victory hexes at 2025 and 2320. If the soviets try to re-capture these victory locations they will have to weaken their forces on the northern side of the river, which makes it much easier for me to re-capture those hexes.
3. Accept the fact that you're probably going to have to re-captue all of the victory locations on the northern side of the river. At least I couldn't figure out how to stop the Soviets from crossing the river and capturing most, if not all of the victory locations. The key is to make to Soviets pay dearly for those locations. At setup, I decided to place the HQ unit ( 4 Bradleys w/ TOW missles) in the woods at hex 1414 with a Hold order. I may be wrong, but it seems the Bradleys are more accurate with their ATGM's when in Hold stance vs Screen. In my small win this unit took out about 8 bad guys before it was destroyed. Also, I followed two good pieces of advice from this thread: 1. Try to keep the Soviets at long range. This is eaiser on the west side because it's more open than the east (woods / ridges ). 2. Use your only artillery asset (the Mortor unit) to place smoke either directly on your units, or between you and the enemy. The Soviets don't have thermal sights, so they can't see thru smoke.
5. Finally, and probably the biggest reason I squeeked out a win was lady luck. During the first couple of turns the weather was heavy rain, visibility 2000m. Due to my Thermal sights I was able to destroy a lot of units with virtually no retrun fire (except their Artillery).

Considering the fact that NATO is at quite a disadvantage: Outnumbered, Initial order limitation, way more Soviet artillery, I still felt good about finally winning one. SO the score is...Me 1, Soviets about 12 or 13!!

(in reply to Bipman)

Post #: 34

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/11/2014 11:55:15 AM

cbelva

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I learned something while in the army - good commanders even use "gamey" tactics to win in real life. Whether it was during a CPX, Reforager, or a deployment to the NTC; my commanders were always employing what some would call gamey tactics. War is not a fair fight.In one Reforcer my squadron commander actually used a tactic similar to you sending your scouts across the river to the western side. He would have been rebuked if he had been caught, but he didn't care. Winning was all he cared about. Which is what is important in war. I also served under a brigade commander who had the reputation of being able to defeat the OPOR at the NTC. He did it by cheating. I went thru two NTC rotations with him. He out performed the OPOR each time - by using "gamey" tactics.. So I tend to look at gamey tactics differently. It is one thing to abuse the rules for an advantage. It is something else to use unorthordox and unexpected tactics. I have won A Time to Dance many time and I unapologetically use "gamey" tactics.

Don't think that this doesn't happen in real wars.

Oh, congratulations on finally beating A Time to Dance!

< Message edited by cbelva -- 12/11/2014 1:00:07 PM >

(in reply to genehaynes)

Post #: 35

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/11/2014 10:53:30 PM

budd

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hey man..... a win is a win doing that scenario, good job. too bad that replay feature isnt in yet would of liked to see someone win

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Post #: 36

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/11/2014 11:23:59 PM

IronMikeGolf

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So, is this our Kobayashi Maru?

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Post #: 37

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/11/2014 11:59:09 PM

Max 86

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I'm glad I'm not the only one that struggles with this game. I am wondering if the scenarios are balanced after the updates. It seems to me playing the NATO side in the smaller scenarios it's hard to get anything more than a marginal victory and that's after suffering a few beatings. Still a great game but limited orders is really a buzz kill.

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No problem Chief!

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Post #: 38

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/12/2014 12:47:19 AM

budd

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My casualties as nato are definitely up. I'm having a lot of trouble with the screen command and orders delay. I give an order to my units in screen mode to move and usually the enemy will close and kill or damage them before they move..while in screen mode, while they wait for there next action time. I'll have to reserve judgement as i have just been beating my head against a time to dance for days and i've finally moved on.

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Post #: 39

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/12/2014 2:05:25 AM

Max 86

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I have seen that too with the screen command. It seems that the rules for a screening unit should be - if enemy in sight and within the screen range, the unit should be moving within five minutes or so.

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No problem Chief!

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Post #: 40

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/12/2014 4:15:25 AM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Max 86

I'm glad I'm not the only one that struggles with this game. I am wondering if the scenarios are balanced after the updates. It seems to me playing the NATO side in the smaller scenarios it's hard to get anything more than a marginal victory and that's after suffering a few beatings. Still a great game but limited orders is really a buzz kill.

The scenarios were not balanced for limited orders. They are balanced for unlimited orders. Limited orders is an option in the game if you want a bigger challenge. I would say it lives up to that expectation on our part.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 41

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/12/2014 11:14:28 PM

Max 86

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Ok. Thanks, that eases my tortured soul.

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No problem Chief!

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Post #: 42

RE: A Time To Dance - 12/31/2014 8:22:31 PM

governato

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From: Seattle, WA
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I have played as NATO 'A time to dance v2.08' as a PBEM with Comsolut (limited orders, no auto resupply and fog of war). While getting a good noob trashing I also replayed it a few times vs the AI. A few lessons have been learned:

- only the South most bridge 1119 can be blown in time before the Reds arrive.
- defending on the wooded ridges above the stream (1515) is not feasible anymore in 2.08. I lost my units placed there real fast.
- a tank unit arrives early in hex 1214. Use one of your orders to move it out of harm's way ASAP. It never survived more than a turn there.
- set two strongpoints: a tank unit on `hold' in hexes 0512 and 1606 respectively. Cover them with smoke once spotted and add additional support in hex 1114. This will create two nice killing zones if the Reds decide to move forward. This worked great against the AI. A human may be smarter.
- Your command cycle is effective only if your HQs stay intact. Disperse your HQs as soon as possible and dig them out of sight.
- keep your on map Mortar unit moving. It will scoot on its own, but move it a few hexes every other turn at least. Red Arty is deadly on soft targets.
- NATO (well US) tanks are effective at range, use them that way. It's your only hope.

Good luck!

< Message edited by governato -- 12/31/2014 9:24:06 PM >

(in reply to Max 86)

Post #: 43

RE: A Time To Dance - 1/8/2015 5:54:20 PM

mr_quarantaine

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wohoo! thanks genehaynes and governato, that pointed me in the right direction! And may I add

- send your recon units east across the river to threaten the victory locations there, this really panicks the AI

Maybe a word of warning that this is a really hard scenario would have been nice, because guess which scenario a newbie like me picks first after playing the tutorial... let's start with a small one, probably nato seems more familiar, now which one is first on the list...

(in reply to governato)

Post #: 44

RE: A Time To Dance - 1/8/2015 6:55:02 PM

Mad Russian

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A Time To Dance is the scenario we point people to after the Tutorial.

For a couple of reasons:

1) It's so small you can play it several times in a single sitting and try different things. Even go looking for tips on the different sites that talk about FPC and still have time to replay it.

2) It's a great challenge and you can get OH...SO...CLOSE...to winning it and still be left with that bad taste in your mouth that you were this close >< to having stopped that attack cold.

3) It really, really, shows off the ability of the AI. This is a different beast and you find out right at the start that it's not the average 'dumb as a box of rocks AI' you are used to.

4) It's fun!!

So, add it all up and yes, it is challenging, short, brutal and fun!! What more could you ask for in your introductory scenario to the game system?!

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 45

RE: A Time To Dance - 1/8/2015 7:43:17 PM

mr_quarantaine

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You have a point there. It certainly made me read the manual, rethink options and plans and go out looking for AARs and videos on how the hell to deal with it, very educational indeed! Also, nothing more satisfying than a steep challenge finally overcome.

(in reply to Mad Russian)

Post #: 46

RE: A Time To Dance - 1/8/2015 8:45:30 PM

Mad Russian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mr_quarantaine

Also, nothing more satisfying than a steep challenge finally overcome.

About that...A Time To Dance, really isn't that steep a challenge in this group of scenarios!

There are others I consider to be far more challenging after you advance further into the system.

One in particular that comes immediately to mind.

Good Hunting.

MR

< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 1/8/2015 9:46:56 PM >

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RE: A Time To Dance - 1/8/2015 9:08:31 PM

GlassHoppa

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"Time to Dance" is definitely a great scenario for truly understanding and ENJOYING the game. That is if you are an obsessive-compulsive nut job who enjoys beating head against wall, but aren't we all?

After numerous tries at all of the above strategies, I finally got an 80% score with 60-ish percent forces remaining. This was playing v2.08 with unlimited commands and staff-directed "auto-artillery". Forget blowing the bridges or defending anything east of Bad Neustadt. Defend in depth West of the town from 0415 and Lebenhan, I sent all my M1A1's up onto those two hills to hold. The plains northwest of BN and the valley at 0616 were my killzone. Any spare units were deployed along the route NES40 line and the treeline at 1114/1214, sending in flanking fire. A few lucky rainstorms came in making for a real field day as NATO IR sights dominated the battlefield. 5 hours in, I had the Soviet forces below 30% strength and a 30% score. It was only a matter of time to whittle down the remainder enough to be able to sweep back in and pick up the remaining VP hexes.

Three notes:

1) I kept the last batch of cav (3 recon units) in reserve up north at Unsleben, I needed them to get the VP hexes in Heustreu and the 1500 VP hexes across the river. The Soviets counterattacked towards Heustreu with all they had left (leaving 3000VP hex 1615 uncovered) and I barely held on, sending remaining HQ units in to reinforce. I did not recover 1615 (see note 2)

2) My initial setup was a HumVee in hex 1119 to blow the one bridge in BN, and the rest of the recon force on the westernmost setup hex (08197, I think). I sent them all across the westernmost bridge and deep into the rear (east) towards the 1500pt VP hexes. The Bradleys managed to harass and divert the Mech Rifle Companies, even destroy a few runners before dying. This was worth it, delaying the onslaught towards Bad Neustadt. But the remaining Hummers got wiped out for nothing. Next time, I'll send them north of Wollbach to help out in the last-minute scramble for the VP hexes. When time ran out, I had a tank HQ doing hasty movement towards the last VP hex 1615. Otherwise, I would have had over 83% for a decisive victory. So don't waste the HumVees!

3) Reorg the forces (attaching to nearby HQ's) as soon as possible. I did one big reorg about 3 hours in and wound up with a 53 minute turn... agonizing. But I also wound up with a "spare" tank HQ (nothing attached) with a M1A1 that I used to send flanking fire down on my KZ, so it worked out. I let the NATO AI handle the (sparse) artillery, not enough command cycles to do it myself. I would have liked to lay some smoke, but every time I was ready to give a smoke mission the mortar unit was scooting. Oh well, the AI did a fine job laying down harassing fire.

Overall, a great scenario - you have to use NATO's strength in standoff fighting against the WP's doctrinal weakness of trying to force all their units all their units down one path - N275. And it truly illustrates the point of "Don't fight for ground, fight to kill the enemy". As an eye-opener, try playing the WP version of this scenario! It was not as easy as I thought it would be (you start with all bridges already blown) and the tactical problem of how to overwatch the units assigned to throwing up new bridges against NATO's longer range capabilities... I beat NATO by bridging in 3 different places (Heustreu, 1615, and inside BN), taking heavy losses but eventually just overwhelming the defenses with sheer numbers. A fun and eye-opening scenario for either side!

(in reply to mr_quarantaine)

Post #: 48

RE: A Time To Dance - 1/9/2015 12:59:00 AM

CapnDarwin

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A couple other inputs here.
1). MR has put together great scenarios that Rob and I have disrupted by fixing bugs with spotting, combat, and AI. The game runs better now of course and acts as initially intended, but it has made the scenarios tougher to play with the changes in those factors. Secondly, in doing bug squashing and testing, we have never given MR time to take stable code and look at balance again. Going forward in the 2.1 plan we will need to give him time to review scenario play. That will mean longer patch cycle times, but it will give you guys scenarios with less game impact than what you have now.

2). Options. Certain options are given to make the game easier or harder to play than the baseline. We will look to do a better job in 2.1 to show those items in that way so there is less confusion.

3). Screening. The bane of the 2.0x series. The problem is that there are many more situations than the single order can cover for a single type of role/unit. Some want their units to look and run, others want fight and scoot when taking losses. The one simple order can't fairly control the situation. We will fix this problem in 2.1 with the enhanced orders and SOPs.

Hopefully some insight into what we did and what we plan to do.

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OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

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Post #: 49

RE: A Time To Dance - 5/25/2015 6:38:42 PM

schaefsky

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Wow, after playing this game again I am amazed how hard it has become. I remember playing A Time to Dance when the game came out and winning without great difficulties, and now I have played the scenario with D,E,F as before about 10 times and always get a decisive loss no matter what I do. Tried defending at the first wooden area around Wollbach and then further back around Lebenhan and to the north of it. Further back seems to work a little better but I am not getting anywhere near winning, I do kill around 30% more than the enemy but that is not nearly enough, and end up with no VP.
Has anybody won this scenario with 2.09 and has any hints or a playthrough?
What also struck me is that you no longer can deploy your units at the bridges in the beginning so blowing any of them is not an option any more.
It seems to me you have to defend so far back that taking back VPs within the time limit seems impossible, although I don't even quite get there because up until about 2 hours time left I am holding on and then ususally 6 tanks and 4 IFV die in a row, poof like that. Is this the intended balance or are there any changes planned in the future?
Not even thinking about starting a campaign again when I get my ass handed to me like that.

(in reply to CapnDarwin)

Post #: 50

RE: A Time To Dance - 5/25/2015 9:22:07 PM

CapnDarwin

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A Time to Dance is a classic scenario in the game. I've played it so many times as a way to test changes as we have done them. It is a hard fight for NATO. You can usually blow one bridge and every once in a blue moon get a second. You need to use cover and range to hit the Soviets as they advance. As more forces "wake up", getting them into useful positions is key. I work to get Mech units into and around Heustreu. Tanks I push across the ridge and tree line north of Bad Nuestadt and work to get kills along N279. Use smoke on or in front of your forces for cover when the mortar shows up. Keep your HQs on the move in the Wollback area to avoid being a static arty target. Once you deplete the Soviets, work on counter attacking the VPs along the river with whatever decent size forces you have remaining.

As posted elsewhere, Steve will be looking to rebalance all the scenarios now that the rest of us aren't making internal changes to things. That should help ease a bit of the shock value on a few scenarios. Of course, no one ever said war was fair.

_____________________________

OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

Cap'n Darwin aka Jim Snyder
On Target Simulations LLC

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Post #: 51

RE: A Time To Dance - 11/15/2015 7:45:47 PM

demyansk

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I am playing the game now and the screen came up about ending the game early, I had a 54% lead and I managed to move two of my units toward one of the bridges.

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Post #: 52

RE: A Time To Dance - 11/15/2015 8:13:29 PM

demyansk

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I got a 54% on this battle

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 53

RE: A Time To Dance - 11/15/2015 8:33:38 PM

budd

Posts: 2972
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you play with limited orders?

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Post #: 54

RE: A Time To Dance - 11/15/2015 10:04:02 PM

Mad Russian

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Playing this scenario with Limited Orders is akin to being in an Olympic Full Contact Martial Arts match. You may win but you'll know for for sure you've been in a fight.

I'm working at rebalancing these again and A Time To Dance will get an update.

You should know that I never release anything that I've not personally achieved at least a contested with. I consider a contested result as a win since you didn't lose.

Best of luck with all the scenarios you have in the game now and this rebalanced one is coming right up as well.

Good Hunting.

MR

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Post #: 55