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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 2:16:26 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: setloz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

To tell the truth, I am thinking of having the KB sprint south and east and try to nail the retreating bb fleets.

I think a strike against his CVs should be your priority. Without CVs he cannot reinforce and resupply any bridgehead he gains here. All his BBs would be useless...
The more he keeps his CVs in range of your LBA and fatigue his CAP, the more your chances of landing a successful blow should increase....provided KB actually does strike :)

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 2:19:38 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Keep at him. Drain his fuel, ammo and ops points.

Judging by how few US subs I see in the AO, I'd seriously consider siphoning off some of the KB's escorting ships to boost your surface combat power.

I have thought of that too. Those great destroyers are going in....

but, I am pretty sure I can't risk the KB in another head on clash this next day. I have no surprise, I've got one CVE fleet down to 43 fighters (man the KB would have really nailed it if I had a coordinated strike), but there is another one with the deathstar that still has 200. I think he will simply switch places and look for another day like today.

Losing the KB would simply really be to tough for me to take. I already have lost way too much of it. I realize this is the endgame, but golly-gee, I gotta accomplish something with it. Plus I get two more carriers Unryu and Amagi in about 10 days or less.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/22/2015 3:27:33 PM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 4:12:47 PM

Crackaces

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One thing that one should not overlook -- disruption. say 70 Bombers can hit ground units and take maybe 3 disabled squads and 2 killed squads and the combat result might seem not very worth it ..
But .. you do not know how many squads were disrupted by percentage. That is not in the combat result ..Disrupted squads recover quickly but when followed up quickly disrupted becomes disabled .. disabled become killed squads and dead tanks ..

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 4:35:56 PM

setloz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Losing the KB would simply really be to tough for me to take. I already have lost way too much of it. I realize this is the endgame, but golly-gee, I gotta accomplish something with it. Plus I get two more carriers Unryu and Amagi in about 10 days or less.

I don't believe now is the time to falter.

This is from my perspective, having followed your AAR for the past 6 months or so:
Your CVs are 5 hexes at most from a shipyard. His CVs are 80 hexes away from his shipyards.
You have LBA, he doesn't.
Your KB pilots are well rested. His are fatigued from 3 days of incessant attacks and ground strikes.
KB has full complement of pilots and planes. Allied DS has probably several planes/squadron damaged and repairing.

Not to mention the outcome: if you don't cut off his bridgehead and allow him to expand it then having the KB intact will be like having a white elephant: pretty but useless. Because your industry will be gone. And without industry there are no supplies....you will slowly bleed to death with the KB still intact...

All the factors point to this being THE moment in war when the tide can change for the next 6 months.
Of course, it's easy for me to say this from the supporters' seats. The decision (and responsibility) are yours.

(in reply to Lowpe)

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 6:27:33 PM

Alfred

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1. The Allied Armada does not need a shipyard. Any damaged Allied CVs can retreat to Attu (30 hexes distant )and because it is winter, be reasonably confident that no (or at worst only a weak one)Japanese air strikes will follow them.

2. The Allied shwerpunkt is clearly Kushiro. Either it or Bihoro must be captured within 2 days. However the forces landed at Bihoro will probably be inadequate to capture it. Both Kunashiro and Shikotan are expendable and if necessary can be sacrificed by Japan.

3. Defeating the Allied Deathstar is not the prime consideration. Retaining both Kushiro and Bihoro is the sole relevant consideration.

4. Allied replenishment capability in January 1944 is limited which in turn limits the staying capability of the Allied CVs and CVEs. Hence the importance for the Allies to capture the two Hokkaido airfields. It is in the interest of Japan to be able to launch both AM and PM LBA sorties against any returning Allied Deathstars shepherding subsequent Allied resupply convoys.

5. The best position for Japan is to

(a) prevent the Allied capture of the Hokkaido bases
(b) constantly use LBA to harass the enemy (both land and sea elements)
(c) use the KB against Allied ships (CVEs and transports etc) only when the Allied CVs have left. Until then the KB can be used against the beachhead from a safe position

6. The KB will be required for any timely counter invasion of the Marianas

Alfred

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 6:31:10 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

6. The KB will be required for any timely counter invasion of the Marianas

That's a pipedream.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 6:51:15 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

6. The KB will be required for any timely counter invasion of the Marianas

That's a pipedream.

And so is striking Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941.

No KB accelerates the Allied advance everywhere even if every single Allied CV and CVE were sunk now. And there is no way Japan could guarantee that result with a sacrifice of the KB now.

No KB completely hands over the initiative to the Allies. That is even a surer recipe for a quick Allied victory.

Static Japanese defense guarantees defeat. Only an active defence provides possibilities.

Even a bad plan is better than no plan at all. Without the KB and the possibilities it provides of utilising the interior lines, Japan has no plan.

Alfred

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 4657

RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 7:22:43 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Even a bad plan is better than no plan at all. Without the KB and the possibilities it provides of utilising the interior lines, Japan has no plan.

Alfred

That's true, but a knee-jerk offensive at the Marianas when the Allies are ashore on the Home Islands isn't going to go well for Japan.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 7:23:28 PM

Lowpe

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My turn is away...

And...I am flying in troops to Hokkaido...LRCAPing Kushiro heavily, since I know he will bomb with the KB planes there, or at least a portion. Trying desperately to save the Hokkaido bases. Might last one more day at Kushiro, but after that I don't think so. Shikotan is secure; Kunashiri probably a goner. If not today, then tomorrow.

I did something with the KB, I am keeping it secret until tomorrow, because I have no faith in the KB currently.

It might work...but it isn't being recklessly aggressive. I agree with Alfred, if I lose the KB now it would be an unmitigated disaster...even a 1-1 trade.

The Musashi sorties...I feel a lot more comfortable with the surface ships.

We shall see what tomorrow naval strikes and sorties can do.

I feel pretty good about the turn, not great, just pretty good.

(in reply to Alfred)

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 8:02:50 PM

Lowpe

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Upgraded and got my first Frances squadron today.

Two Helen squadrons are standing by to be the first Kamikazes.

I feel better now with my choices & strategy. What a great discussion everyone had with their points of view.

I am going to try and preserve the KB. Without it, and the two more carriers I get in a few days, the situation would be very bad. I did put the KB at risk, but I feel the risk is minimal for the potential strike & gain.

I also put the Musashi at risk, but there again, I think she is well escorted, and can potentially really cause some havoc, and not be attacked by Allied planes.

I had the Hyuga retire with the mini KB. They will reorganize, refuel.

I left several squadrons over in Indochina...I am not sure that the Allies know this...and they have flown in for a CAP trap over Rahaeng, Uttaradit and Pisanuloke. No fighter sweeps before his bombing.

I also put some Zekes over Iwo where he bombed yesterday.

I can't lose sight of my strategy of bleeding the Allies. He is using a lot of FM-1 Wildcats, his pools are hurting, and I have deep pools of fighters currently and even deeper when the Frank comes along in a few days.

This is not to imply that I am not in a grim situation, but the pressure is even greater for the Allies I think. Time to do some unexpected things and hurt him.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 8:07:27 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Even a bad plan is better than no plan at all. Without the KB and the possibilities it provides of utilising the interior lines, Japan has no plan.

Alfred

That's true, but a knee-jerk offensive at the Marianas when the Allies are ashore on the Home Islands isn't going to go well for Japan.

The Marianas can make sense if it gets stripped....

Marcus is definitely more doable...

To do Marcus I think the miniKB with fighters would be enough to get in if the Deathstar is away.

What I really need now is several hundred political points. My bad for running them down...

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 8:49:34 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Even a bad plan is better than no plan at all. Without the KB and the possibilities it provides of utilising the interior lines, Japan has no plan.

Alfred

That's true, but a knee-jerk offensive at the Marianas when the Allies are ashore on the Home Islands isn't going to go well for Japan.

The Marianas can make sense if it gets stripped....

That's a big "if".

(in reply to Lowpe)

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 9:38:19 PM

Lowpe

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These last couple of turns have been real clickfests.

All the plane juggling, splinters catching up, etc. Ugh, it will feel good once I am re-positioned.

I have to look at tracker and see what the Allies get in planes coming up...and how many.

Hear is hoping to kill lots of planes tomorrow...I have a feeling the losses from here on out are going to be astronomical.

I still have all my Tracom pilots. I don't think night bombing will play too much in this game now...but you never know and I am prepared for it at least.

Has anyone ever turned that 100 plane Sentai into a kamikaze? More valuable as a sweeper I guess, but sure would be fun to uncork a size 90 kamikaze strike!

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 10:05:09 PM

njp72

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Having been in an unfortunate similar position not long ago, I would suggest the most appropriate strategy is the one you mentioned below- bleed him.

His CVEs are very vulnerable around the home islands and you are correct about FM-1 Wildcats. Realistically, once the Allies are ashore anywhere in 44 they are very hard to dislodge. A strategy of attrition and containment utilising the advantages of being close to your logistical hubs is sound.

Also don't be afraid to go after his LOCs and vulnerable amphib transports. Personally from my experience, I didn't gain much and lost a lot going after his Fleet CVs. I found them very difficult to hit even after penetrating his cap. The CVEs are the glass jaw of the Allies ability to project airpower in44.

Just my 2 cents worth :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I can't lose sight of my strategy of bleeding the Allies. He is using a lot of FM-1 Wildcats, his pools are hurting, and I have deep pools of fighters currently and even deeper when the Frank comes along in a few days.

This is not to imply that I am not in a grim situation, but the pressure is even greater for the Allies I think. Time to do some unexpected things and hurt him.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 11:02:51 PM

Crackaces

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quote:

Also don't be afraid to go after his LOCs and vulnerable amphib transports. Personally from my experience,
I didn't gain much and lost a lot going after his Fleet CVs.
I found them very difficult to hit even after penetrating his cap.
The CVEs are the glass jaw of the Allies ability to project airpower in44.

Which is why a Marcus Is. Invasion as Alfred suggested a good operational move ...threaten the LOC ..

A little memory from the past 2 day turns .. Radier seizes an island in the rear of Greyjoy .. send betty's ..complete destruction of supporting cast ..

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/22/2015 11:45:22 PM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Even a bad plan is better than no plan at all. Without the KB and the possibilities it provides of utilising the interior lines, Japan has no plan.

Alfred

That's true, but a knee-jerk offensive at the Marianas when the Allies are ashore on the Home Islands isn't going to go well for Japan.

The Marianas can make sense if it gets stripped....

Marcus is definitely more doable...

To do Marcus I think the miniKB with fighters would be enough to get in if the Deathstar is away.

What I really need now is several hundred political points. My bad for running them down...

Ok. This whole idea about trying to invade somewhere right now is completely useless and beyond consideration. There are Allied troops on Hokkaido!

What would you gain? Nothing.

What would you lose? Whatever you send to Marcus, the Marianas, wherever else you're being advised to invade. Not possible, and if it was it does nothing. These are not bases he needs to form an SLOC. He can move from Cent Pac, the Aleutians, or just ship directly from PH or the West Coast. It's a big ocean.

There is something wrong with your settings if fighters are not flying from the KB at all. Why are we not talking about practical matters here? This is not a time for big picture theoretical stuff, this is time to get into the nitty gritty of what is going on with your strikes. I've never had escort not fly at all. Not even when I was a total super-nubie.

Something is wrong. Can you post your fighter group settings? Maybe show more of what is set to hit the Allied fleets as well? I feel like somehow this is going to slip away from you. Let the combined knowledge here chip in.

_____________________________

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 12:36:35 AM

topeverest

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Late war empire is an extremely difficult command problem with few - if any - upsides. It is a 'kobiashi maru' test of character as much as anything else. I think you are weathering this problem with grace and suggest you keep your head up.

When allied force is deployed thoughtfully, I have never seen the empire come out on top. That said, I think the game mechanics strongly favor the allied invasion of the home islands before the kami machine is fully operational later in 44. I personally think that speed games such as this one allow the allies to skirt what I believe is the cornerstone on empire late war capabilities - and dramatically reduce the costs of getting allied troops planted in the home islands. Finally, the hard limits to kami activation makes speed approaches to the home islands doubly deadly for the empire. things that matter so very much in 'longer' games, like skilled pilot and thoughtful airframe pools for kami's, become largely irrelevant. It's just plain easier on the allies in such endeavors in early 44, and that is that.

That said, you are where you are in the game. The home team was 'less' prepared to repel the chosen allied invasion, and that sucks for the empire. I agree with Alfred in many respects. Use the LBA to keep the captured allied bases knocked out or down. Don't give up the KB in a useless demonstration. Continue to concentrate all available forces of all types and deploy them as fast as you can. Keep your nose into the wind to determine where / when the next anvil will occur. Use massed high sweeps to grind allied positions.

good luck admiral.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 2:06:15 AM

Lowpe

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KB strikes was pure simplicity itself. 40% Escort CAP at 15K with 7 hex range and drop tanks installed. I set the KB to meet the mini KB and follow. I also had 40 Rufes providing CAP at 0 range, 80%.

During the Marianas I tried something new for me, which was breaking down into 200 sized plane groups task forces, and I constantly messed up not having all the carriers end up in the same hex. Plus I played with fighter settings, having some squadrons designated to 0 range, and I put 50% on CAP. There not a single plane scrambled, so I figured if I use 0 range CAP again, it should be a very high percentage of planes on CAP.

I am moving heaven and earth to get forces onto Hokkaido...

but I do know he will get at least one base here. Kushiro won't be able to hold more than 0-2 days and she is gone.

I have all but 4 or 5 fighter squadrons back on the HI now. Almost all land based air is moving back. I have boosted plane production more, as there will be no more quiet times.

I have prepped for kamikazes. My navy is still returning to the HI, several destroyers, battleships and cruisers aren't here yet.

For me to outnumber the Allies on Hokkaido I need 6 divisions for a 2-1. 12 divisions for a 3-1. That is not going to happen fast. I probably will be able to move troops there faster than the Allies can, but it is going to take time. Right now I am airlifting in two brigades and one division....that is all the available troops of size currently available. I have more on the way, but like I said it will take time.

So it seems I have to work on the supply line, and instead of trying for a lucky break against his deathstar; hit where I can to inflict damage. The supply line. Retreating task forces. Do whatever I can to drain his supply and hurt his forces.

Taking Marcus isn't a bad idea, as there are still troops stuck forward that could do it. But it would be two months in the future. After Kushiro is a level 8 AF or whatever it can grow too.

Hard facts: he will take a base, it will become a big air base. He will get a second base (Kunashiri) that can be a level 9. But then I can at least sweep, and have kamikazes. Personally, I don't see how I will ever kick him off without him running out of supplies and that is going to be very difficult I think.

It will be a grinding air war of attrition...and unfortunately it won't be long at all until there are thunderbolts there.

It is a grim situation...but he does have a long supply line. But it is very grim.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/23/2015 3:09:20 AM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 2:48:08 AM

Insano

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exciting stuff - did you have some KB strike planes set to Nav search? I find there is a strong preference for strikes when the enemy is sighted by a local search aircraft. The enemy was lit up to 10/10 for sure by LBA but if a KB search plane didn't radio in the attack... Not saying that's how it should work, just my observation of how the game plays. A token 10% search from every strike squadron would provide the search required. Don't worry about the diminished strike size - you've got to get them in the air first.

Really odd though that there was no strike on such a target rich environment. The enemy carriers did not conduct any Naval strikes of their own so they didn't get the automatic increase in DL from that.

Which Admirals do you have in command of your CV task forces?

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 2:56:17 AM

topeverest

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My 2 cents.

Sweep and bomb (and bombard) that fallen base into oblivion with everything you have. Pay no meaningful attention to the fleet until you are ready with a massive kami and SCTF and CV raid. Literally, I suggest bringing every fighter back from the empire and sweeping at the highest allowable altitude with literally every fighter you have and airfield bombing with every bomber you have. 75% of fighters to sweep activities. Move every ENG unit you can to maximize aviation support. This is your primary advantage, and I suggest exploiting it.

That base he is about to take means nothing if he cannot get airframes in the air. And if you keep him out of the air, his deathstar cannot leave to launch another invasion.

Keep in mind his support train (AKE, AE, AD, replenishment CV's is a very important target. If you can find them, I would try to get them with minor SCTF)

< Message edited by topeverest -- 5/23/2015 3:57:54 AM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 3:28:57 AM

Alfred

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The priority now is not to hit the supply lines, it is to stop Kushiro from falling.� That means

the KB also must strike at the beachhead.� It is not just a question of inflicting casualties but raising the disruption level plus increasing significantly the� enemy supply consumption rate.� Remember to reset your DB and TB to level bombing altitudes and dedicated bomb ordnance.� Also set destination even for the KB's fighters
all LBA launching ground attacks against the beachhead
use your NFs, not bombers, on offensive night missions
naval bombardment of the beachhead, yes that includes the Musashi
rushing LCU reinforcements in, by air, SST, land.� Even being in the wrong move mode assists the defence
ensure you have on hand adequate supply, use level bombers and PA which are not tasked with flying in troops.� You don't need naval search.

Delay, delay, delay the fall of Kushiro is the only game in town for the next 2-3 days.� Give up Kunashir and Shikotan if necessary to keep Kushiro.� But don't lose Bihoro.

Remember Allied supply can not be dumped into Kushiro, only into the LCUs themselves and that is limited.� There will be plenty of time later in the week to go after the out of ammo retreating Allied TFs with the KB.� The outlook for the Kushiro defenders will increasingly improve after 3 more days.

BTW setting drop tanks on carrier planes is not a winner.� Search for my posts on the subject.

Alfred

Edit: Forgot to add that even air lifting in support squads with zero offensive assault value, stiffens the defence.

< Message edited by Alfred -- 5/23/2015 4:37:28 AM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 10:01:13 AM

obvert

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quote:

KB strikes was pure simplicity itself. 40% Escort CAP at 15K with 7 hex range and drop tanks installed. I set the KB to meet the mini KB and follow. I also had 40 Rufes providing CAP at 0 range, 80%.

Great. That's a very good setting for strikes, so maybe something else is not optimal. What about the TF leader? Does he have high air skill?

For LBA you should be able to get some coordination even with the betas if you go from a size 9 field with a very good air leader in the HQ. From that one base standardize everything to one altitude and with all escorts at that altitude. Your other strikes from surrounding bases could then use the higher lower settings to move CAP. It's tough, but one day here you've got to be able to get a decent package from these distances to hit the CV fleet, maybe more now since some BBs are retiring.

I'd also have a look through LoBaron's guide on coordination again to ensure you're doing as much as you can. Not that it's completely relevant with the betas now, but it can't hurt.

Anyone else have thoughts?

_____________________________

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 10:48:09 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
Anyone else have thoughts?

I think during all the BETA changes and tweaks that took place that something broke when it comes to LBA coordination. As you remember I tested this quite extensively. Probably over 1000 times.

The best I could come up with is that its almost completely random. Besides weather I couldn�t really find anything that gave noticeable effect. As far as I can tell the best thing to do is to just have sheer numbers and wear down the CAP.

I think I posted the results of my test in my AAR? Or possibly in a Tech forum thread?

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 10:48:57 AM

ny59giants

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Agree with Alfred...this is your Omaha Beach!! If he can get off the beach (take Kushiro) then the invasion is successful. High LCU disruption levels are a MUST if you are to hold the base.

Double check your TF numbers as the lowest numbered ones go in first.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 12:01:47 PM

Lowpe

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Jan 20, 1944

Another dark day for Japan.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 12:02:29 PM

Lowpe

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More skirmishing.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 12:05:14 PM

Lowpe

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I sent the KB south...she gets some success. Too little, too late.

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 12:05:52 PM

Lowpe

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All types of transports hit...

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 12:06:41 PM

Lowpe

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Over in Indochina the Allied tank Army starts losing vehicles.

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< Message edited by Lowpe -- 5/23/2015 1:07:15 PM >

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RE: Unorthodox - 5/23/2015 12:14:44 PM

Lowpe

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The aftermath, Japan loses another 400 planes attacking the Allied fleet carriers east of Kushiro for no hits.

Allies lose 125 planes.

Allies take both Kunashiri and Kushiro. Bombardments, both aerial and naval do a number on the defenders.

Bihoro won't be able to hold, I can't get enough troops there before the Allies from Kushiro get there. Plus it it is now subject to enemy naval bombardments.

Allies will gather their ships in port under big CAPs, so no the sweeps will start.

I still can't activate kamikazes.