RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 5:07:22 PM

Gilmer

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You keep going back to comparing Vettel and Hamilton. That was not my intent. I was not putting Hamilton down to build up Vettel. I was only pointing out why Vettel might have done poorly in relation to Ricciardo, without any comparison of Hamilton at all. I don't know much about Hamilton other than he is a very good driver, has won two championships and is driving very well this year. And we all now see Ricciardo has dropped off a lot since last year whereas Vettel changed cars and is driving excellently again.

I think you might have included me in the "Hamilton doesn't race well when things don't go his way." argument. What I actually said was I sort of agree with the announcers when they said BOTH the Mercedes drivers tended to lose their cool when things didn't go their way. Now, there is some argument that they keep their cool, too. there are examples either way, but please don't read into it that I was just criticizing Hamilton when I said I agreed with the announcers. We had just seen Rosberg make a really dumb mistake when he could have gained some points on Hamilton. That was very high in my mind when I typed that I agreed with the announcers. Hamilton drove off the tracks twice I believe, so they both lost their cool in the last race.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 6:07:46 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

When did Formula One begin? 1950 or 1984?

warspite1

Wasn't sure why you asked that question - although on reflection assume it is to do with the Senna comment.

Point is, I have no interest in rating drivers I have never seen. There is absolutely no point - after all it would just be an exercise in reading stats. An F1 fan in 20 years time will see - Senna, Lauda, Stewart and Piquet. All three time world champions. So they are all roughly the same right? Er no, not even close, but the fan will have no idea what cars they drove, how good they were in relation to other cars, how good their teammates were, no knowledge of individual races and what it took to win them or even brilliant drives for points, their luck good and bad etc etc. Stats can give you only so much.

Was Fangio or perhaps Clark the greatest ever? No idea. Fangio won 5 times even though he was an 'old man' by the time he came to Europe - so he can't have been rubbish can he? Clark had the Lotus to drive but equally was revered by his peers so having the right car was clearly only part of the story. But me, only just born when Clark won his second title and long after Fangio retired, rating one against the other? What is the point in that?

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 6:19:41 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

You keep going back to comparing Vettel and Hamilton. That was not my intent. I was not putting Hamilton down to build up Vettel. I was only pointing out why Vettel might have done poorly in relation to Ricciardo, without any comparison of Hamilton at all. I don't know much about Hamilton other than he is a very good driver, has won two championships and is driving very well this year. And we all now see Ricciardo has dropped off a lot since last year whereas Vettel changed cars and is driving excellently again.

I think you might have included me in the "Hamilton doesn't race well when things don't go his way." argument. What I actually said was I sort of agree with the announcers when they said BOTH the Mercedes drivers tended to lose their cool when things didn't go their way. Now, there is some argument that they keep their cool, too. there are examples either way, but please don't read into it that I was just criticizing Hamilton when I said I agreed with the announcers. We had just seen Rosberg make a really dumb mistake when he could have gained some points on Hamilton. That was very high in my mind when I typed that I agreed with the announcers. Hamilton drove off the tracks twice I believe, so they both lost their cool in the last race.

warspite1

Sorry if I have 'accused' you of taking a position you haven't HG.

Anyway, I'm getting too 'involved' with this so will withdraw from the debate and concentrate on the second half of the season.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/2/2015 8:56:14 PM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 6:42:46 PM

british exil

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quote:

Anyway, I'm getting too 'involved' with this so will withdraw from the debate and concentrate on the second half of the season.

Warspite do you think Vettel will be able to catch up in the championship?
Ferrari have improved since the beginning of the season. Making big improvements.Or will Mercedes have some aces in their sleeves, using the summer break to make the car even better, so that Hamilton will win the races he needs to clinch the title or maybe so that Rosberg can move past Hamilton?

Mat

Just getting ready the the 2nd half of the season. ;)

< Message edited by british exil -- 8/2/2015 7:48:19 PM >

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Post #: 694

RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 7:00:12 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil

quote:

Anyway, I'm getting too 'involved' with this so will withdraw from the debate and concentrate on the second half of the season.

Warspite do you think Vettel will be able to catch up in the championship?
Ferrari have improved since the beginning of the season. Making big improvements.Or will Mercedes have some aces in their sleeves, using the summer break to make the car even better, so that Hamilton will win the races he needs to clinch the title or maybe so that Rosberg can move past Hamilton?

Mat

Just getting ready the the 2nd half of the season. ;)

warspite1

Well Hungary was a worrying development. But there are a lot of fast tracks to come and so an awful lot depends upon whether Ferrari have improved in that department. If they do make the leap, then I think Vettel has a great chance because Ferrari will use Raikonnen to best advantage.

But I am hoping that Silverstone is a guide to where they each stand on fast tracks as this suggests not....

One thing is for certain. If Ferrari are competitive at Spa we have a real battle to look forward to.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 7:05:55 PM

british exil

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Mercedes are already working on improvements. as always. There is always a better racing car waiting to be designed and built.

https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-website/en/latest/technical/2015/7/mercedes-f1-w06-hybrid---hungary-brake-cooling-solutions.html

Mat

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Post #: 696

RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/2/2015 7:42:30 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: british exil

Mercedes are already working on improvements. as always. There is always a better racing car waiting to be designed and built.

https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-website/en/latest/technical/2015/7/mercedes-f1-w06-hybrid---hungary-brake-cooling-solutions.html

Mat

warspite1

Sure, and that is good to hear. But as ever the great unknowns are:

a) will the improvements and upgrades work
b) will the new 'stuff' introduce unreliability into the mix.

Same applies for Ferrari of course - but.......

#nervousashell

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/3/2015 4:25:42 AM

Jagdtiger14

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Ahhhh...Spa, my favorite track! Well, Nurburgring (Nordschleif)...would be really cool for F1 if they drove that entire track again.

Since I didn't get into F1 until 1998, then I reject Senna as a top driver...if that makes any sense...which I dont think it does. As I watched Schumi, I really did think I was watching something special and the best F1 driver ever. I understand your position Warspite, and in some way Schumi alludes to it at the end of the following remark, but at the same time he holds Fangio above himself (that could be Hyperbole, but I assume he means it). Here is what Schumi said about Fangio (he wasn't alive to have witnessed it): "Fangio is on a level much higher than I see myself. What he did stands alone and what we have achieved is also unique. I have such respect for what he achieved. You cant take a personality like Fangio and compare him with what has happened today. There is not even the slightest comparison."
So, while you put Senna on the top of your list, perhaps it would be more accurate to place an asterisk somewhere with Fangio's name next to it?

< Message edited by Jagdtiger14 -- 8/3/2015 5:26:30 AM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/3/2015 5:56:38 AM

warspite1

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I think lists can be fun and can be an interesting exercise. But equally there is a point at which there is limited value of any such.

My top 10 list - based purely on drivers I have seen race 'in the flesh' and whose careers I have followed accordingly (essentially the cut off point is drivers in Formula 1 from 1980) is incredibly difficult. No Fittipaldi, no Villeneuve.

Fact is, only the top three are set in stone. Prost should be closer to Schumacher (or even ahead) but for his wet weather timidity (no doubt a consequence of Germany 1982).

After those three? It becomes really tough - Lauda and Mansell for sheer astonishing bravery alone - deserve their places in the ten, but both were also more than worthy champions racing against top opposition.

Then we have the three current drivers. Don't know where they will end up - only that based on what they have done so far means they will be in the 10.

Frankly 9 and 10 were posted because I needed to round out the 10 but by these two I had totally lost interest.

At least with these drivers I have seen them race - I have seen good races and bad races - I knew what they were up against and what they were driving. It's difficult getting some images out of the mind - Nigel scything past a Tyrrell at Abbey (Silverstone 1987) or Senna on a qualifying lap (Estoril 1986) - these are the bits you miss when just relying on stats in books.

Now what seems likely is that Fangio, Clark and possibly Stewart or Moss need to be in the ten. But for me it would be meaningless. I have not the slightest yardstick to go by in placing them anywhere; wins are only of limited value - otherwise what about Brabham (3) Ascari (2) G.Hill (2)?

1. Ayrton Senna � 3 titles
2. Michael Schumacher � 7 titles
3. Alain Prost � 4 titles
-------------------------------------
4. Niki Lauda � 3 titles
5. Nigel Mansell � 1 title
-------------------------------------
6. Fernando Alonso � 2 titles / Sebastian Vettel � 4 titles / Lewis Hamilton � 2 titles
--------------------------------------
9. Nelson Piquet � 3 titles
10. Mika Hakkinen � 2 titles

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/3/2015 7:09:10 AM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/3/2015 6:53:34 AM

AndyG1

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Regarding the question on Vettel having a chance in 2015 following Hungary win.

My experience tells me no. The press are hyping up the F1 season after Hungary. But the fact is, the Mercedes advantage (engine) is too much, Hungary has short straights and plenty of corners. That's why Red Bull did well too - that Renault engine is rubbish, but he Newey chassis:).

Well go to Spa, Mercedes will make it a 'cake walk'. That's my view on things.

By the way, Schumy, Senna, Mansell, Prost, Piquet, Hakkinen all drove in the same season (1991). All World Champions at some stage. And there are no doubt many more seasons with similar potential talent as well as existing. But the car is God in F1.

By the way, what's that saying again? Ah yes, "lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Never just go by the stats:).

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/7/2015 2:56:38 AM

Jagdtiger14

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Lewis Hamilton (or Lew Lew) is making a class 1, grade A fool of himself in Barbados. I hope they drug test him when he gets back. This guy is a pure idiot...when you make his kind of money, have tons of fans, and represent major corporations and advertisers...you sober up, grow up, and lead a life of example. And now its revealed he's dating one of the worst excuses of a human being, Ms "American Oxygen". I see major implosion in his future. I hope his agent shakes him up, and if not or if that doesn't work, Mercedes should threaten (and promise) to fire him.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/20/2015 5:51:12 PM

cohimbra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

And about Raikkonen, for me he have 0% chance to stay in Ferrari

Raikkonen just signed a year extension for 2016 season with Ferrari.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/20/2015 6:08:30 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

quote:

ORIGINAL: cohimbra

And about Raikkonen, for me he have 0% chance to stay in Ferrari

Raikkonen just signed a year extension for 2016 season with Ferrari.

warspite1

I think this makes good sense for Ferrari. Raikkonen is not in the same league as Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso - but he is still a World Champion. So in replacing him they need to go for someone better (or a youngster with potential).

Following Bianchi's sad departure, that left the door open for Bottas, but lets face it, he's not been great has he? He should be spanking Massa but its just not happening and that is a concern as to how good he actually is. An alternative is Ricciardo but it seems he has a watertight contract at Red Bull plus would Vettel be happy for him to be his team mate again?

All in all, keeping Raikkonen for another 12 months makes sense.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/20/2015 9:03:56 PM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/20/2015 10:12:14 PM

Gilmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Ahhhh...Spa, my favorite track! Well, Nurburgring (Nordschleif)...would be really cool for F1 if they drove that entire track again.

Since I didn't get into F1 until 1998, then I reject Senna as a top driver...if that makes any sense...which I dont think it does. As I watched Schumi, I really did think I was watching something special and the best F1 driver ever. I understand your position Warspite, and in some way Schumi alludes to it at the end of the following remark, but at the same time he holds Fangio above himself (that could be Hyperbole, but I assume he means it). Here is what Schumi said about Fangio (he wasn't alive to have witnessed it): "Fangio is on a level much higher than I see myself. What he did stands alone and what we have achieved is also unique. I have such respect for what he achieved. You cant take a personality like Fangio and compare him with what has happened today. There is not even the slightest comparison."
So, while you put Senna on the top of your list, perhaps it would be more accurate to place an asterisk somewhere with Fangio's name next to it?

Excellent! Yes!!!!

Just the parts about Spa and Nurburgring (Nordschleif).

< Message edited by H Gilmer -- 8/20/2015 11:14:36 PM >

_____________________________

"Venimus, vidimus, Deus vicit" John III Sobieski as he entered Vienna on 9/11/1683. "I came, I saw, God conquered."
He that has a mind to fight, let him fight, for now is the time. - Anacreon

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/21/2015 12:56:37 PM

Jagdtiger14

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What? You don't like Shumi?...or you don't like what he said about Fangio? Or you don't think Fangio should be near the top of anyone's list of best drivers?

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/22/2015 12:08:30 AM

Jagdtiger14

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Rosberg looking good in practice...

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/23/2015 1:53:29 PM

warspite1

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.....Lewis looking better in qualifying and even better still in the race.

LEWIS!!!!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/23/2015 3:11:03 PM

warspite1

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Baby? Pram? Toys?

Vettel has thrown a strop and didn't go for the mandatory weigh-in - and has thus been reported to the stewards.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/24/2015 5:30:14 PM

warspite1

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Guy Ligier RIP

Great memories - The Flying Teapot anyone?

Attachment (3)

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/24/2015 5:31:57 PM

warspite1

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...and more 'modern' Ligier cars.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/24/2015 5:42:13 PM

warspite1

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Prayers for Sheffield's Justin Wilson who is critical and in a coma after being hit on the head by debris in the US.

Sadly, Justin never made it in F1 but he has carved out a decent career across the pond.

Hang in there

Attachment (1)

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/25/2015 5:55:28 AM

warspite1

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Sadly Justin never made it....

He leaves a wife and two young daughters. Sad.

Justin Wilson RIP

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/25/2015 8:29:42 PM

Lecivius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Sadly Justin never made it.... He leaves a wife and two young daughters. Sad.

Justin Wilson RIP

QFT

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/25/2015 10:59:20 PM

Gilmer

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Just when we think these racing sports are very safe and we go years seeing horrific accidents and people walk away with scratches... we get complacent and have very bad few months where we lost 2 drivers and we are instantly reminded how dangerous racing can be, any type racing.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/26/2015 8:11:23 PM

warspite1

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Apparently the FIA are looking at canopies

.

Next it will be the open wheels being enclosed.

Why not just go straight to touring cars?......

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/30/2015 1:40:53 AM

CarnageINC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Apparently the FIA are looking at canopies .

Next it will be the open wheels being enclosed.

Why not just go straight to touring cars?......

Calm down Warspite, one change doesn't mean everything will change or will it be the end of F1.

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/30/2015 2:53:05 AM

warspite1

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Never mind. I can't be arsed.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/30/2015 7:19:21 AM >

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/30/2015 4:18:07 AM

AndyG1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndyG1

Regarding the question on Vettel having a chance in 2015 following Hungary win.

My experience tells me no. The press are hyping up the F1 season after Hungary. But the fact is, the Mercedes advantage (engine) is too much, Hungary has short straights and plenty of corners. That's why Red Bull did well too - that Renault engine is rubbish, but he Newey chassis:).

Well go to Spa, Mercedes will make it a 'cake walk'. That's my view on things.

Now what did I tell you:)

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/30/2015 4:23:26 AM

AndyG1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...and more 'modern' Ligier cars.

I had a Scalextric car of the above Ligier. Ahhhh, the days when you could advertise cigarettes on a car....

Apparently as I've seen so many cig advertising in my years of watching F1 I should be a chain smoking high risk cancer wreck .... but have actually never smoked in my life.

Go figure:)

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!! - 8/30/2015 4:36:26 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AndyG1

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...and more 'modern' Ligier cars.

I had a Scalextric car of the above Ligier. Ahhhh, the days when you could advertise cigarettes on a car....

Apparently as I've seen so many cig advertising in my years of watching F1 I should be a chain smoking high risk cancer wreck .... but have actually never smoked in my life.

Go figure:)

warspite1

I had that beautiful car too - but I do not recall it having Gitanes sponsorship. I thought it just said Ligier.

I thought the last Scalextric cars with tobacco sponsorship were the Lotus 77 and the March 771 (very briefly) which had JPS and Rothmans and are collectors items as a result.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/30/2015 7:18:53 AM >

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