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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 11/23/2015 1:15:59 AM   
KWG


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Status: offline 		Ground losses so far during week 50.






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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 11/23/2015 1:18:52 AM   
KWG


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Status: offline 		Air Sorties week 50






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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 11/23/2015 1:32:40 AM   
KWG


Posts: 1249
Joined: 9/29/2012
Status: offline 		8th Army Advances and clears the valley of German forces. A probe north reveals German forces stronger than intel had originally reported.




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< Message edited by KWG -- 11/23/2015 2:33:49 AM >

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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 11/23/2015 1:53:57 AM   
KWG


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Status: offline 		Patton retakes ground and sees an opportunity to advance.

Eisenhower flies into Normandy and is Jeeping his way to VII Corps HQ as details must be confirmed ,decisions made and actions taken.

Churchill sends a personnel letter to General Bradley congratulating him on the success of Operation Zeus and its impact on the "Godwinson" invasion.

Engineers get a captured King Tiger tank towed to a area where it can be inspected.




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< Message edited by KWG -- 11/23/2015 3:04:40 AM >

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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 11/24/2015 2:14:08 PM   
KWG


Posts: 1249
Joined: 9/29/2012
Status: offline 		May not be able to complete my turn until Thanksgiving or maybe Wed. night.
I do not want to rush as there are several options available.

I can move 3 divisions into the conquered hex and do, I think, 2 hasty attacks with all three. Or I can do a planned attack with one and a hasty with 2 or 3 depending on which i want to do first.

I still have to keep my attack hex strong as it is my beachhead. My attacking forces are flanked by strong, SS heavy forces with deadly toys. So if I advance and attack, my forces still need to be strong enough to withstand a counterattack and my beachhead must also be strong.

I could advance and not attack at all this turn and be in very good shape to attack the 22-X NW forces next turn, but that could result in a opportunity lost.

I see possibilities to make things difficult for the Germans. i think there is a depot in the 1-9 hex St. Lo.
There is a chance to put the entire German left wing into peril.

I cant be 100% of the strength of enemy forces, except maybe the individual units thrown out of the attacked hex. As my intel in the above attack in Italy said that the defense of the fallschirmjäger wass only 7, and it turned out to be 52. Numbers may not also matter as one has to take into account equipment and what German reinforcements may show up.


< Message edited by KWG -- 11/24/2015 3:39:33 PM >

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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 11/26/2015 1:53:44 AM   
KWG


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Status: offline 		Eisenhower takes Divisions from other Corps and a 3 Division planned attack is made possible.
Patton sends out 3 Armor Divisions in a planned attack led by the powerful 4th Canadian Armor division.
Striking southeast they bowl over the German defenders, routing the 9th Panzer Division.





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< Message edited by KWG -- 11/26/2015 3:15:54 AM >

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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 11/27/2015 6:59:41 PM   
KWG


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Joined: 9/29/2012
Status: offline 		turn 50

Have decided not to advance into the won hex with 4th Canadian Armor. It will weaken the entire advance too much, in light of the strong German forces in the vicinity.

Still have a major event to decide whether to do this turn or later.


German to Allied losses are 5-1 so far this week.
Guns 16-1
AFVs 1-1.5




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< Message edited by KWG -- 11/27/2015 8:19:21 PM >

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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 11/27/2015 7:03:13 PM   
KWG


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Status: offline 		My highest scoring fighter units in each theater.






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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 11/27/2015 7:07:47 PM   
KWG


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Status: offline 		Interdiction levels week 50






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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 11/27/2015 7:10:28 PM   
KWG


Posts: 1249
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Status: offline 		Interdiction levels week 50

In the Valley.... Italy.




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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 11/27/2015 7:12:56 PM   
KWG


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Status: offline 		Airbase England

Target Normandy





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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/1/2015 12:29:54 AM   
KWG


Posts: 1249
Joined: 9/29/2012
Status: offline 		In France the Allies have done all they can to prepare for a German counterattack.

The 22-x hex:
21 Pz
Panzer Lehr
17SS PzGr

23-x hex
1SS Pz
12SS Pz
362 Inf.

Allies had to do a lot of behind the front movement, in order to prepare for the next phase of offenses.

The Fellowship grows stronger as the shadow over the land darkens.



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Post #: 102
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/1/2015 10:00:44 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 51 VP: 31 Manpower Pool: 40,000 Arm Pts: 1,992,000
WA Loses: 273,000 10,000
GHC Loses: 326,000 37,000

Combat Ratio: 1 to 3.7 historically it was almost 1 to 1.

As with WitE, WitW combat engine is completely Middle Earth.

The real question is when is 2by3 going to over haul the flying pig combat engine and make it historical?

As always I will keep getting the data and posting it until something changes.

Ignoring the data never changes the data, 4 yrs of WitE and still ignoring the data?

Why?

http://www.britannica.com/event/Normandy-Invasion/images-videos/The-exact-number-of-casualties-suffered-in-the-invasion-of/40555





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< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/1/2015 11:06:21 PM >

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Post #: 103
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/1/2015 10:23:23 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I'm not sure what the 37000 and 10000 numbers represent. Are these the "casualty" numbers reported during combat?

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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/1/2015 10:55:34 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

Combat Ratio: 1 to 3.7 historically it was almost 1 to 1.


Should be judge by a single week, or the campaign as a whole?

Losses to date in your game:
German: 276k
WA: 248k

That's basically .9 Allied losses to every 1 German so far in your campaign...

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Post #: 105
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/2/2015 2:46:28 AM   
LiquidSky


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Combat Ratio: 1 to 3.7 historically it was almost 1 to 1.


Should be judge by a single week, or the campaign as a whole?

Losses to date in your game:
German: 276k
WA: 248k

That's basically .9 Allied losses to every 1 German so far in your campaign...



Actually its much worse. Probably 1.2 Allied to every 1 German. You are missing the fact that a lot of those losses were Italian in Sicily.

So the combat engine is not historical...it is way in favour of the Axis.


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Post #: 106
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/2/2015 3:01:12 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

Actually its much worse. Probably 1.2 Allied to every 1 German. You are missing the fact that a lot of those losses were Italian in Sicily.



Good point.
Pelton, have you tracked casualties through the game? Where did they stand at the Italian surrender vis-a-vis now?



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Post #: 107
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/2/2015 4:50:28 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
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From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		If you are looking at combat loss ratios, you also have to exclude POWs. The reason is most of those don't come from combat. I see the Axis have 80,000 POWs in this game; toss those, and the ratio due to actual shooting is probably worse than 1.2 Allied to 1 German

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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/2/2015 6:05:24 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		just to help here's some data from my game. T47 is the turn before the landings, T56 is the latest we've played. I've sent this to Pelton in response to a PM but felt a bit more info might help here.

If we include prisoners then losses are equal 80,000 each. If only kia+wia then 50,000 axis vs 77,000 allies.

But, as in WiTE you have to be careful. The game engine treats lightly wounded (the sort of people you can get back to their unit in a week or so as 'disruptions' not coded as losses). We've been over this too many times in the WiTE forum and its got pretty tedious.

On one hand you have sometimes tendentiously selected real world statistics. On the other you have a game that uses losses as a tool to affect the dynamics of the game engine. And treats a large portion of those armies would have recorded as WiA as 'disrupted' (which is quite neat, they are not there in the front lines when the next attack happens but if you have decent supply and leadership they return quite soon)




edit: point is I've been on the defensive for most of this fighting, I'd expect the combat ratio to be in my favour?

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< Message edited by loki100 -- 12/2/2015 7:07:28 AM >

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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/2/2015 7:47:42 AM   
LiquidSky


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Here is mine from Turn 69.





I have most of France, I have a line from Lucca to Rimini in Italy.

I also made a few pockets since the combat engine makes it easy for the allies to do so, hence the large number of prisoners.

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< Message edited by LiquidSky -- 12/2/2015 8:50:00 AM >

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Post #: 110
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/3/2015 1:16:54 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Actually its much worse. Probably 1.2 Allied to every 1 German. You are missing the fact that a lot of those losses were Italian in Sicily.



Good point.
Pelton, have you tracked casualties through the game? Where did they stand at the Italian surrender vis-a-vis now?





The last 3 turns is what I am tracking.

Basic math lets keep all the homer stuff on the side lines and stick to basic math.

No name calling or threatening to bane people (Red). This is not that hard to track as with WitE




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Post #: 111
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/3/2015 1:21:44 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


Here is mine from Turn 69.





I have most of France, I have a line from Lucca to Rimini in Italy.

I also made a few pockets since the combat engine makes it easy for the allies to do so, hence the large number of prisoners.


Ok bro.

Once allies hit the beaches at Normandy.

I am looking at turn 49+ once KWG invaded.

Total loses from turn 49 to present

Math math math not PC stuff.

What is basic combat ratio - we know WitE is way off vs historical so is WitW combat engine way of also.

If you have historical data post it from June 44 to Jan 45 or historical Normandy as I have.

So far its 1 WA for 3 Germans which is not historical based on my historical data.


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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/3/2015 1:23:15 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

just to help here's some data from my game. T47 is the turn before the landings, T56 is the latest we've played. I've sent this to Pelton in response to a PM but felt a bit more info might help here.

If we include prisoners then losses are equal 80,000 each. If only kia+wia then 50,000 axis vs 77,000 allies.

But, as in WiTE you have to be careful. The game engine treats lightly wounded (the sort of people you can get back to their unit in a week or so as 'disruptions' not coded as losses). We've been over this too many times in the WiTE forum and its got pretty tedious.

On one hand you have sometimes tendentiously selected real world statistics. On the other you have a game that uses losses as a tool to affect the dynamics of the game engine. And treats a large portion of those armies would have recorded as WiA as 'disrupted' (which is quite neat, they are not there in the front lines when the next attack happens but if you have decent supply and leadership they return quite soon)




edit: point is I've been on the defensive for most of this fighting, I'd expect the combat ratio to be in my favour?


Good data.

So 5 Germans for 8 allies = historical


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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/3/2015 1:24:14 AM   
Peltonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

If you are looking at combat loss ratios, you also have to exclude POWs. The reason is most of those don't come from combat. I see the Axis have 80,000 POWs in this game; toss those, and the ratio due to actual shooting is probably worse than 1.2 Allied to 1 German


I am looking at zero surrenders in current game.


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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/3/2015 1:25:31 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky


quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Combat Ratio: 1 to 3.7 historically it was almost 1 to 1.


Should be judge by a single week, or the campaign as a whole?

Losses to date in your game:
German: 276k
WA: 248k

That's basically .9 Allied losses to every 1 German so far in your campaign...



Actually its much worse. Probably 1.2 Allied to every 1 German. You are missing the fact that a lot of those losses were Italian in Sicily.

So the combat engine is not historical...it is way in favour of the Axis.



Total combat loses for western front bro

Less PC and just the data


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Post #: 115
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/3/2015 1:32:14 AM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		The the allies invaded and attacked the last 3 turns.

Tring to make this really simply so I don't have to do this for the next 5 months to prove I am right SHHH.

Historical WF ratio = 1 to 1 and its 1 to 3 basic math, something is wrong.

There are zero surrenders ect ect I am talking turn 49 to present. combat only.

Same stuff as WitE, but WitW is less historical then WitE which means 2.0?

I am trending 5 or 10 turn loses not a bunch of Italian surrenders silly pants

In other words German only loses vs WA loses - no surrenders.

So once allies invade France track loses so you have a lose ratio German vs WA



< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/3/2015 2:34:17 AM >

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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/3/2015 7:12:12 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		Problem is you haven't supplied information about what has happened in your game since the landings, the screen simply shows complete losses across the game. Now there are lots of factors that could affect that and there is no point taking all game losses and then relating them solely to a source about losses in the Normandy campaign.

The three games with data provided all show very different overall losses. So playstyle is clearly having an affect. It maybe that the way you have opted to play this game is giving you higher losses.

also looking at killed/disabled in your game the ratio axis:allied is .9:1 (I'm ignoring surrenders), Liquidsky is showing .75:1 and mine is .75:1 (but with much lower overall losses).

So two games are pretty much with the same ratio (even though its clear that the actual level of fighting is different), your's is the one with the highest German loss ratio. I'd suspect its down to your chosen play style and it maybe that KWG is doing a good job of turning that against you?

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RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/3/2015 2:18:19 PM   
LiquidSky


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I imagine that if you want the Normandy landings to cause historical losses, you have to (at the very least) act historically.

Did you even guard the beaches? Or where they all just a free landing for the allied forces. I would think that if it was a free landing for the allies, the losses would have been a teensy-weensy bit less then the actual historical losses.

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Post #: 118
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/4/2015 12:06:08 PM   
Peltonx


Posts: 7250
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am talking basic combat after landings.

Basic Normandy loses or for that matter basic combat loses from June 44 to May 45 - surrenders in current game. Most of German loses historically were from POWs at the very end of Normandy during breakout.

We know what the loses were historically, if the ratio is 1 to 3 we know its simply way off nothing close to 1 to 1.

Sure there are factors, but I play all games the same way.

I have 2 games on going and have many from the past.

Combat ratios are a center issue to any game.

As we all know most loses historically were caused by artillery fire, not small arms (WitE) or interdiction from the air (WitW).

Lets keep trending the data.


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Post #: 119
RE: Pelton (GHC) vs KWG (WA) turn 50 - 12/4/2015 1:39:18 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		If the loss ratio is off vs. history, something else must be off that is favoring the Germans. Because every game I have played, both sides, the Allied player fails to get into Germany in a meaningful way. I have played experienced WITE players who understand the ground combat engine. I am playing a game as Germany where I have really screwed up a few times and lost over 300,000 to Capture, yet the Wehrmacht is stronger than ever.

If the losses are tamped down, there are too many Germans somewhere. As it is right now, I think the Allies need some help.

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