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RE: Cobra exploit - 1/2/2016 1:20:55 AM   
Peltonx


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Only 4 battles which total 8k dead and total dead for turn was 44,000 so 65% of loses is caused by bombing alone and I am taking out 4-5k for attrition. So 3 months of non-historical loses as we all know bombing only caused 20% of loses. And we all know Operation Cobra lasted a week not 10 weeks.




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RE: Cobra exploit - 1/2/2016 1:21:51 AM   
Peltonx


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Turn 49
WA Loses: 256,000
GHC Loses: 268,000
Turn 58
WA Loses: 342,000
GHC Loses: 554,000
Total loses last 10 turns
WA Loses: 86,000
GHC Loses: 286,000
Ratio: 3.5 to 1 Historical lose ratio for Normandy 1:1 and most caused by artillery fire not bombing.







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RE: Cobra exploit - 1/2/2016 1:23:38 AM   
Peltonx


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There is down side to this exploit as can clearly be seen not bombing Germany or V sites give zip for VP’s
and Loses are kept light because the planes kill at least 65% of the Germans. 10-12k Panzer Divisions in a single turn drop to 5k.




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RE: Cobra exploit - 1/2/2016 1:28:00 AM   
Peltonx


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I posted the data, the historical loses for Normandy, historical loses based on type.

If you like to post based on data historical or in game to say how this is not an exploit do, post away.

If your simply going to whine or say so and so exploites so that makes this exploit ok.

As we all know planes should not be doing 2/3 of the KIA for 10 weeks, sure a few weeks but this is simple another Middle Earth WAD exploit.

This is not Desert Storm, its WW II

panzer lehr
Bayerlein left a remarkable account of the effects of the COBRA bombing and ground assault on his already war-weary command.
In response to postwar interrogation he wrote:

We had the main losses by pattern bombing, less by artillery, still less by tanks and smaller arms.
The actual losses of dead and wounded were approximately:

by bombing 50%
by artillery 30%
by other weapons 20%
So Operation Cobra lasted a week and loses were only 50% by bombing and yet WitW gives 60-70% for 10 weeks.

Recent analysis of ground combat deaths in various wars has shown that, for WW2,
military wounds and deaths were caused primarily by four sources:


Small Arms fire: 5-10% of wounds, <1% of deaths
Mortars, Grenades, Mines, and other lightweight explosive devices: 40-50% of wounds, 20-40% deaths
Artillery (primarily blast and direct fragmentation): 30-50% of wounds, 50-60% of deaths
Bombs: 5-10% of wounds, < 5% of deaths

The amounts varied heavily by the particular battle, as locale terrain plays a huge roll in determining both what
weapons are prevalent, and the effectiveness of each.
For instance, artillery had a very low impact on deaths in the various Pacific island campaigns, where the
vast majority of casualties were from mortars, grenades, and mines, followed by small arms. However,
in the various Western Desert campaigns, artillery had an even higher total (due to the open terrain and hard rocks,
which amplified artillery's effectiveness).



Major General J. B. A. Bailey, British Army (retired) wrote:


From the middle of the eighteenth century to the middle of the nineteenth, artillery is judged to have accounted for perhaps 50% of battlefield casualties. In the sixty years preceding 1914, this figure was probably as low as 10 percent. The remaining 90 percent fell to small arms, whose range and accuracy had come to rival those of artillery. ... [By WWI] The British Royal Artillery, at over one million men, grew to be larger than the Royal Navy. Bellamy (1986), pp. 1–7, cites the percentage of casualties caused by artillery in various theaters since 1914: in the First World War, 45 percent of Russian casualties and 58 percent of British casualties on the Western Front; in the Second World War, 75 percent of British casualties in North Africa and 51 percent of Soviet casualties (61 percent in 1945) and 70 percent of German casualties on the Eastern Front; and in the Korean War, 60 percent of US casualties, including those inflicted by mortars.[36]

— J. B. A. Bailey (2004). Field artillery and firepower



Looking for more data but looks like 10% of loses were caused by "bombing" and 50-70% by artillery fire depending on weather/terrain ect ect.




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< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/2/2016 2:39:30 AM >


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RE: Cobra exploit - 1/2/2016 2:38:41 AM   
KWG


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"The analysts point out that in June, July, August and September the 8th Air Force did a lot of tactical bombing, whereas in October the 8th Air Force engaged in exclusively on strategic targets."



Epidemiology of Injuries
Primary weapons of war can be divided into explosive munitions and small arms.
Explosive munitions: Artillery, grenades, mortars, bombs, rockets, mines, improvised explosive devices, etc.
Small arms: Pistols, rifles, and machine guns.

The most common battlefield injury pattern is multiple fragment wounds involving multiple anatomical sites.

The ears are most often affected by the blast wave, followed by the lungs and the gastrointestinal (GI) tract hollow organs. GI injuries may present 24 hours later. Injury from blast is a pressure and time-dependent function. By increasing the pressure or its duration, the severity of injury will also increase

WW2
"the 70-75% casualties are from fragmentation producing weapons, this includes bombs, artillery, hand grenades, mortars, etc. and was gathered from casualty data. The doctors or graves registration personnel didn't concern themselves with what weapon actually caused the fragmentation. Just like a gunshot wound is a gunshot wound, they don't generally know if it came from an infantryman's rifle, a sniper or a machinegun. It could be/was further refined by after action reports, if the battle included artillery and mortars but no aircraft then you know bombs weren't a factor."

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/2/2016 4:03:56 AM >


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RE: Cobra exploit - 1/2/2016 2:59:28 AM   
KWG


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quote:

As we all know planes should not be doing 2/3 of the KIA for 10 weeks, sure a few weeks but this is simple another Middle Earth WAD exploit.


Why is a few weeks ok but not more?


How many civilians were killed by aircraft?
What if that destruction was applied to the battlefield instead?


Ive posted lots of info showing that some of the commanders at the time wanted to do such.
But then, what is a QUOTE from people actually there compared to a statistic from years later.


Can I get "50-70% by artillery fire" enemy casualties even when I have no artillery in the battle?
It can be said that Naval guns caused less than 1% of ground casualties in ww2. So units on the coast can expect the same, just 1% casualties?

In game, as many troops as there are being bombed in would be hard not to hit something.

Are you saying aircraft are too powerful? OR Iam using them too much?


If you are saying that they are too powerful and should be coded down, then for WiTE 2.0 it may be best to leave that small number of Luftwaffe on the airfield.
Or will their effect have to be coded back up?

You are more than likely going to win, or have you crunched the data and hexs ,till the end, and it shows a possible different ending?

"whine"? If so Iam merely a faint echo.





< Message edited by KWG -- 1/2/2016 1:16:56 PM >


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RE: Cobra exploit - 1/2/2016 3:08:22 AM   
Seminole


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[moved to the other thread]

< Message edited by Seminole -- 1/2/2016 5:07:54 AM >

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ITALY EXPLOIT - 1/5/2016 1:45:21 PM   
KWG


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This is a look at the Allies' Italian Campaign


My invasion plan was based on a what I call a Reverse Anzio.

I would land my my most powerful force first at Anzio "Operation Tiger". Knowing with a 98% certainty that it would be met with a equally powerful force to contain it. It's mission was to test the waters of German reaction, then HOLD or more presiscely make the Germans "HOLD THAT TIGER".

The was a small chance the Germans may withdraw north of the invasion. I was counting a strong force to surround my force, which if I managed right could not be thrown back or torn apart and annilihated.


The smaller invasion "Operation Wolf" landed a week later at Salerno with the mission to grow in force then capture "RAVAGE" all of south Italy and eventually link up with Tiger.

We were able to capture Naples, Foggia and ALL of south Italy up to the Gothic Line, as the Germans had withdrawn all forces to that line.

Patton "Tiger" was the anvil and Monty "Wolf" was the hammer.

Over the winter I maintained pressure with attrition, ground attacks and bombing railyards . I had follow up invasions prepping for both the west and east coast of Italy. They have been redirected.

My intention was to make the Germans mantain "2 Fronts" in Italy which put a strain on the Germans that would result in a collapse of the front.
Hoped that the Germans would be worn down holding 2 fronts with out realizing thats what they were doing.




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< Message edited by KWG -- 1/5/2016 3:09:37 PM >


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Breakout!!! - 1/9/2016 1:09:06 AM   
KWG


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Allies Breakout of Normandy

Poles, Brits, Yanks Land by Sea in North Brittany

Normandy Ground Forces Link with Brittany Invasion


Rennes, Mortain, Loudeac, St. Brienc Liberated


Advancing Allied Troops Make Grab For Brest


U.S. 2nd Armor - Conquerors of the Appian Way, Liberators of Rome, and now Overlords of Normandy.



41st Armored Infantry on the move.


Private Joseph De Freitas, from Yonkers (New York), of the 41st Armored Infantry prepares a meal.



SALUTE!!! to 41st Armored Infantry, 2nd Armor Division.




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< Message edited by KWG -- 1/10/2016 12:06:20 AM >


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RE: ITALY EXPLOIT - 1/9/2016 7:47:36 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Advancing Allied Troops Make Grab For Brest


so glad you didn't mis-spell that

how much damage does this do to Pelton's wall of steel around your original landings?

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RE: ITALY EXPLOIT - 1/9/2016 3:13:56 PM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Advancing Allied Troops Make Grab For Brest


so glad you didn't mis-spell that

how much damage does this do to Pelton's wall of steel around your original landings?


I was wondering if anyone would catch that!

The steel wall is still strong but its foundation is disappearing.

5 of his Infantry divisions are surrounded. He is staying put and extending his left flank . With weaker units the futher left it goes.

Instead of attacking the 5 Infantry divisions I decide to surround them then attack them in a isolated condition.

The red zone had Security units, that were for the most part weak and were pushed/routed out of the way.

Most of my Air Forces were given the week off.
He still has troops in southern France, but it does not look like many. When the next invasion hits it may be a open road to Paris.





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RE: ITALY EXPLOIT - 1/9/2016 4:31:41 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

Advancing Allied Troops Make Grab For Brest


so glad you didn't mis-spell that

how much damage does this do to Pelton's wall of steel around your original landings?


I was wondering if anyone would catch that!

The steel wall is still strong but its foundation is disappearing.

5 of his Infantry divisions are surrounded. He is staying put and extending his left flank . With weaker units the futher left it goes.

Instead of attacking the 5 Infantry divisions I decide to surround them then attack them in a isolated condition.

The red zone had Security units, that were for the most part weak and were pushed/routed out of the way.

Most of my Air Forces were given the week off.
He still has troops in southern France, but it does not look like many. When the next invasion hits it may be a open road to Paris.

...



och, you should see what I get away with in some of my AGEOD AARs, bad puns and innuendo all over the place

be interesting to see if Pelton shifts his mindset from tenaciously holding every hex to trying to draw you away from your supply bases?


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RE: ITALY EXPLOIT - 1/9/2016 5:59:48 PM   
RedLancer


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Love the additional unit insignia. Please share them with us all.

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Breakout!!! - 1/9/2016 11:16:28 PM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


och, you should see what I get away with in some of my AGEOD AARs, bad puns and innuendo all over the place

be interesting to see if Pelton shifts his mindset from tenaciously holding every hex to trying to draw you away from your supply bases?



Your AARs are entertaining to read. Where are you getting you rarely seen pics? I found http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?f=338&t=3918&start=1610

SSHHH!!! Not too loud. The Germans have been SO HELPFUL to stay close to us while we built up our supplies and ports. We would not like them to leave us before our next invasion.
Unlike Italy, no mountains to save the Germans.

Some posts back I asked the question "What is a main weakness of the Allies?" Advancing.
I must admit Ive gotten a good handle on how the depot system works for the Allies, although Iam sure there is more that I will learn.
It should be interesting to see how it plays in WitE.

Germans can be too defensive which can be just as bad as being too offensive.


< Message edited by KWG -- 1/10/2016 12:43:24 AM >


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Breakout!!! - 1/9/2016 11:24:57 PM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Lancer

Love the additional unit insignia. Please share them with us all.



Thanks. I think I accidentally deleted some of the ones I did awhile back. Found a few and Ive been making them as I play. I pick a unit that I will try to find the insignia for its support units.
Have done some of the German air units. Ive also done some of the Tank Destroyer units. Will go through them and make some zip packages.
The origins of some of the American artillery insignia go back to the War for Southern Independence or the even Revolutionary War, as alot of our first Infantry Regiments do.

< Message edited by KWG -- 1/10/2016 12:43:06 AM >


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RE: Breakout!!! - 1/10/2016 1:08:38 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

[
The origins of some of the American artillery insignia go back to the War for Southern Independence...


I'm guessing you are not from NY

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RE: Breakout!!! - 1/10/2016 1:52:22 AM   
smokindave34


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

The origins of some of the American artillery insignia go back to the War for Southern Independence


As a proud citizen of Pennsylvania I'm slightly offended . Next you'll be calling the Civil War the "War of Northern Aggression".

< Message edited by smokindave34 -- 1/10/2016 2:54:41 AM >

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RE: Breakout!!! - 1/10/2016 2:24:24 PM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana


quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

[
The origins of some of the American artillery insignia go back to the War for Southern Independence...


I'm guessing you are not from NY



Boston... sort of...

Born rasied in the Heart of the Heart of Dixie. By way of

Tennessee- land give to Revolutionary War vets
North Carolina - End of Revolutionary War
Boston - where some my ancestors were the kids that started the Salem witch trials.


< Message edited by KWG -- 1/10/2016 3:28:05 PM >


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RE: Breakout!!! - 1/10/2016 2:27:39 PM   
KWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

quote:

ORIGINAL: KWG

The origins of some of the American artillery insignia go back to the War for Southern Independence


As a proud citizen of Pennsylvania I'm slightly offended . Next you'll be calling the Civil War the "War of Northern Aggression".



Just... "Civil War" is so bland and who knows what Civil War as they can be a dime a dozen.

"War of Northern Aggression". Too impolite. Dont want to offend.

"War for Southern Independence" suites the perspective better.



< Message edited by KWG -- 1/10/2016 4:25:48 PM >


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Breakout!!! - 1/12/2016 2:14:23 PM   
KWG


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Week 58

We have surrounded 5 German Infantry divisions, linked up with the Brittany beachead, surrounded 3 German units in the port town of Malo and begun the breakout into western France.


Medium Air activity this week as squadrons were put on rest. Bombed Vweapon lauch site and some HI and Fuel targets.


In Italy we have liberated several more towns and pushed north. still not encountering the main German defences yet.




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The snowball caused by bombing exploit - 1/12/2016 8:55:09 PM   
Peltonx


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Turn 58
WA Loses: 342,000
GHC Loses: 554,000

Turn 59 VP’s this turn: -18 Total: -96
WA Loses: 350,000 Loses this turn: 8,000
GHC Loses: 585,000 Loses this turn: 31,000
Ratio this turn: 3.75 to 1





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France - 1/13/2016 2:06:35 PM   
KWG


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One of the surrounded German Infantry divisions, 346th, attacks toward Avranches and is met by the US 1st Infantry.


105 Shermans and 155 Howitzers stopped the German attack before the Panzers could be brought up or else it was due to lack of petrol.




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France - 1/14/2016 2:29:03 PM   
KWG


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Week 59


I did more adjusments to my Air Forces this week. Been experimenting with the mission percentage and mission intensity.
Continued with rotating squadrons to rest status.

My main concern was what the Germans were doing on the their left wing. The Red Zone. Are the Germans moving up from south France? Is southern France being weaken?

RAF Bomber Command missions this week were to bomb the Brest Fortess and to hit the Vweapon launch sites. All in the daylight.


Even though I had ground attacks on the German line planned, none were given specific bombing missions as the Allied Command felt that the German left wing needed recon and interdiction in depth.

So air missions in this location with given large areas of operation.

2nd RAF TAC, 8th USAAF, RAF Fighter Command were assigned to these missions.

9th USAAF was assigned to Ground support with some low intensity interdiction.



Using the TOBY targeting system the Squadrons of 8th USAAF would leave England with a list of 10 potential bombing targets with the GO target to be determined by live recon and the weather.




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< Message edited by KWG -- 1/14/2016 3:59:08 PM >


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RE: France - 1/14/2016 2:35:05 PM   
KWG


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RAF Bomber Command hit the Vweapon launch sites.

15th USAAF flying out of Italy bomb Austria.


B17s of the 15th USAAF saying GUTEN TAG to Austria.





Looks like we will have to bomb Sankt Poelten next week



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RE: France - 1/14/2016 4:29:07 PM   
KWG


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The focus this turn was to move to contact with the German left flank and to get into postion for the next phase.

We captured the port town of Brest, capturing its troops and in other battles captured 2 divisions in Normandy.

Lots of battles on the German left flank. But we did not advance everywhere, so as to keep our wanted formation for the next phase.


The main battle was the assualt against the 2nd SS, 12th SS. It was hit by a couple of missions from the 2nd RAF TAC, but the 2 division recieved no main focus from Air Forces. Ground support was in the battles.

Allied forces suffered heavy casualties and hopefully we weaked the Germans.


One interesting thing is that there was no Allied Engineer bonus in the combat odds. And just about every unit had engineers attached.

Not sure why.

EDIT
We did not dislodge the 10SS I mistook this pic for a previous one that did not show the battle north of 10SS that I mistook it for.





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RE: France - 1/14/2016 4:31:56 PM   
KWG


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Battle 1
Those motorcyle squads put out the highest fire per element, with the most hits.

The Wespe had accurate stingers, but just too few of them.


For the Allies the Stuarts put out the highest fire per element.

The engineers got within 300.


I like to pair the light tanks with engineers as I noticed alot of times that work well together getting in close. Not as well this time.







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RE: France - 1/14/2016 4:32:53 PM   
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Battle 2

German 120mm mortars ruled this battle.


Lackluster fire from the allies.





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Grinding - 1/14/2016 8:34:55 PM   
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My captured men expect you to follow The Geneva Conventions four treaties, and three additional protocols,
that establish the standards of international law for the humanitarian treatment of POW's.

Of course Germany will follow none of these, but I expect you to

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/22/2016 9:33:33 PM >


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RE: France - 1/15/2016 8:12:45 AM   
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Can anybody give me an informal explanation of how ground combat works? Does the game basically simulate to masses of men charging eachother with the longer ranged weapons firing as soon as the enemy is within range and the faster units closing with the enemy first and therefore firing more? I just find it odd that the motorcycle units cause the same number of hits as the much more numerous motorised infantry in the first battle. Or that the 100 or so Shermans in the second battle never really managed to hit much.

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Air Campaign - 1/15/2016 3:46:38 PM   
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Week 60

The Big Pic of the Air Campaign




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