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RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 5:04:51 PM   
surfcandy

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: korposp

This game looks to me that you are just moving counters and firing and waiting what happened. Without combat values at the hand and knowing what actions cost how many points and what penalties you must count, also there is a no hit and damage probability info in the game or no values for its estimation, how can you plan your moves and develop some tactic? I am holding from buying and will wait if the game will be more transparent in near future.



Well I'd like to clarify a few things you have stated since I have the game.

1-There is a button for viewing possible distance you can move in your move turn with the selected unit

2-Also a button to see the distance the unit you currently have selected can fire.

3-Each unit has a combat value of a letter A-H

4-ASL (if I remember ..long time played does not calculate probability)

5)Buildings,woods,orchards etc. have either hindrance or blocking along with movement for units

6-There is room for improvement on information presented but there is quite enough information presented to make a calculated tactical attack/defense etc.

7) More under the hood I've only played a few scenarios and a little more is revealed every time I play.


Hope that helped.


(in reply to korposp)
Post #: 31
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 5:13:51 PM   
kylania

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 1/2/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vin53

Well I'd like to clarify a few things you have stated since I have the game.

1-There is a button for viewing possible distance you can move in your move turn with the selected unit



Which button is that? You only ever see where you can move your next movement, not total distance possible.

(in reply to surfcandy)
Post #: 32
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 5:48:01 PM   
surfcandy

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kylania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vin53

Well I'd like to clarify a few things you have stated since I have the game.

1-There is a button for viewing possible distance you can move in your move turn with the selected unit



Which button is that? You only ever see where you can move your next movement, not total distance possible.



What exactly does that mean?

(in reply to kylania)
Post #: 33
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 5:52:10 PM   
Gerry4321

 

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
Status: offline 		There is no button that will show how far a unit can move taking terrain into account. Only help you get is you are told the last hex it can move into. Which doesn't help with planning.

(in reply to surfcandy)
Post #: 34
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 5:54:47 PM   
Dietrich53

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 2/12/2016
Status: offline 		To Vin53:

< Message edited by Dietrich53 -- 2/27/2016 5:55:23 PM >

(in reply to dje)
Post #: 35
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 6:02:13 PM   
Perelandra67

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 7/7/2015
Status: offline 		there's just a lot of guesswork involved in this game with moving and firing. As an ASL'er, there's a lot to like about this game and I know the developers put a lot of time into it. But, there's just not enough depth to provide a challenging wargaming experience.

the "504 turn campaign/scenario" is intriguing enough to stick around see what happens, but if it's just the same counter pushing and "see what happens" kind of thing, then there's just no way I'm going to play 504 turns.

(in reply to Gerry4321)
Post #: 36
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 6:36:15 PM   
surfcandy

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		I understand the white outline around the unit ready to move with the final movement with a red outline around the unit. One question is why are there all those white dots showing when a unit is chosen for movement? That distance changes for example when a leader is added to the squad movement.it seems to be saying something about movement distance.

(in reply to Perelandra67)
Post #: 37
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 6:39:31 PM   
Paullus

 

Posts: 1058
Joined: 6/9/2015
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		You have the Fire Range Tool activated.It's the button with the red F in the Tool Bar at the top.

_____________________________

For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

(in reply to surfcandy)
Post #: 38
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 7:01:15 PM   
Vinya

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/27/2016
Status: offline 		Being an active ASL player myself, I find pretty lame not having the actual values and rules governing combat in a wargame. I can play the game with my ASLRB so I can refer to the actual ASL rules, but not knowing how those rules have been implemented makes that also quite unuseful.

If the problem is ASL copyright infringement, then this game should have never been implemented or sold.

just my 2 cents...

(in reply to dje)
Post #: 39
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 7:07:45 PM   
proflui

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 12/12/2014
From: Hong Kong, now in Toronto
Status: offline 		Can some asl expert create an excel spreadsheet to show all the movement points for squad and afv in different command mode, plus the terrain movement cost. I do not play asl and in this state it is very difficult to play. Thanks.

(in reply to dje)
Post #: 40
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 7:29:10 PM   
Perelandra67

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 7/7/2015
Status: offline 		developers have said they don't want this to be a "spreadsheet driven game" so I think we just have to respect that and play on, or move on.
As an ASL enthusiast, I think the comparison between totH and ASL is really going to hurt TotH. I think this thread has shown that a lot people want combat values and such information but the developers just aren't going there. While i think I might move on, I want to applaud the developers for creating this game.

(in reply to proflui)
Post #: 41
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 7:47:11 PM   
Gerry4321

 

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
Status: offline 		Try using the VASL mod by JMass. Lot of data on the counters to help you.Don't know if the game is implemented the exact same way but the MPs for tanks are working out so far.


quote:

ORIGINAL: proflui

Can some asl expert create an excel spreadsheet to show all the movement points for squad and afv in different command mode, plus the terrain movement cost. I do not play asl and in this state it is very difficult to play. Thanks.

(in reply to proflui)
Post #: 42
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 9:30:49 PM   
iPhoneAppz

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 1/10/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vinya

Being an active ASL player myself, I find pretty lame not having the actual values and rules governing combat in a wargame. I can play the game with my ASLRB so I can refer to the actual ASL rules, but not knowing how those rules have been implemented makes that also quite unuseful.

If the problem is ASL copyright infringement, then this game should have never been implemented or sold.

just my 2 cents...


I would like to do that but I can't locate a copy of the ASL rulebook. I agree with you in that I shouldn't have to get an ASL rulebook to understand the rules of this game. I think that the game should present this information to the player, or the rulebook should contain this information.

(in reply to Vinya)
Post #: 43
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 9:53:37 PM   
keas66

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/27/2016
Status: offline 		I am exactly the opposite . I am enjoying the ASL feel as well as trying to interpret what is happening in terms of the ASLRB . Things keep happening that I wonder why and then I re-read the rules and go aha ! .That gives me a very great feeling of enjoyment with the product .

(in reply to iPhoneAppz)
Post #: 44
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 10:27:50 PM   
proflui

 

Posts: 83
Joined: 12/12/2014
From: Hong Kong, now in Toronto
Status: offline 		But not everyone play ASL and have the rule book on hand. So if anyone can post it as a "strategy guide" it would be greatly appreciated by someone like me.

(in reply to keas66)
Post #: 45
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 10:37:45 PM   
RockKahn

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 10/27/2011
From: USA
Status: offline 		I'm using the Undo button, or more accurately <Save Game, End Scenario, Load Game>.

It's the only way I know of, currently, to get an idea if a unit can make it to a specific hex, and other things. It's a pain, but sounds like it's WAD. It kind of defeats FOW sometimes, but it's about all I can do until some unit data is released or I learn the game better.

Maybe by the time I get through the tutorial scenarios, my Undo-ing won't be necessary and it'll become a little more intuitive. I have my doubts though.

_____________________________

I don't write Universal Law. I just live by it.

(in reply to proflui)
Post #: 46
RE: Combat Values - 2/27/2016 11:44:27 PM   
surfcandy

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		I would like to just see a little more combat info like possible movement distance at movement start.


I definitely don't want a game as complicated as ASL. I don't want to compare this game to ASL or any other game.I sold all my modules on Ebay 10 yrs.ago because for me it was a ridiculous amount of rules and not equal to amount of fun.

(in reply to RockKahn)
Post #: 47
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 3:56:23 AM   
Monkie

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 6/12/2005
Status: offline 		Interesting discussion and how we each approach a "wargame". I always looked at the numbers on the counters as simply being the system by which results were obtained, either you created a result against your target or you didn't.

Never did I look at the numbers on the counter and think "Well my 76L has a 23% chance to hit if I drive it within 5 hexes of the side armor facing of the Panther giving me a 44.5% chance of penetrating hit... etc etc" I always looked at it as "I need to get a flank shot at that Panther so my infantry have a fighting chance of stopping this attack and if not Sgt.Johnson's squad is in big trouble in the village".

I see gaming as a historical narrative as opposed to a chess game with winning moves and absolutes. I guess that is why I never got into the scenario challenges in the old General magazine from AH.

(in reply to surfcandy)
Post #: 48
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 4:17:00 AM   
blackcloud6


Posts: 489
Joined: 8/13/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkie

Interesting discussion and how we each approach a "wargame". I always looked at the numbers on the counters as simply being the system by which results were obtained, either you created a result against your target or you didn't.

Never did I look at the numbers on the counter and think "Well my 76L has a 23% chance to hit if I drive it within 5 hexes of the side armor facing of the Panther giving me a 44.5% chance of penetrating hit... etc etc" I always looked at it as "I need to get a flank shot at that Panther so my infantry have a fighting chance of stopping this attack and if not Sgt.Johnson's squad is in big trouble in the village".

I see gaming as a historical narrative as opposed to a chess game with winning moves and absolutes. I guess that is why I never got into the scenario challenges in the old General magazine from AH.


I agree with this. I think TotH is refreshing in that it casues one to think tactically, not mathematically. And you have to learn what your units can and cannot do, and that is including how far they can move, run, shoot etc.

(in reply to Monkie)
Post #: 49
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 5:01:49 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vinya
I find pretty lame not having the actual values and rules governing combat in a wargame.


+1

This alone has convinced me not to buy the game and I'm a guy who owns all the ASL titles along with dozens of extra duplicate counter sheets of units so we could play monster scenarios.

Call me paranoid but something nefarious seems to be afoot with such a blatant attempt to hide critical game data from players. There is no game play advantage to hiding the data and it actually makes the game far less user friendly by hiding it, so the decision to hide data must have had something to do with copyright concerns.

This would be a first for Matrix and they lose a lot of respect in my book if they were knowingly involved in this kind of escapade. If it is a copyright issue, then do the right thing, pay the license fee to the legal owners and make the game with the info on the counters as it should have been made...

Jim


_____________________________


(in reply to Vinya)
Post #: 50
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 5:16:46 AM   
chrisleko

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 4/23/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blackcloud6


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkie

Interesting discussion and how we each approach a "wargame". I always looked at the numbers on the counters as simply being the system by which results were obtained, either you created a result against your target or you didn't.

Never did I look at the numbers on the counter and think "Well my 76L has a 23% chance to hit if I drive it within 5 hexes of the side armor facing of the Panther giving me a 44.5% chance of penetrating hit... etc etc" I always looked at it as "I need to get a flank shot at that Panther so my infantry have a fighting chance of stopping this attack and if not Sgt.Johnson's squad is in big trouble in the village".

I see gaming as a historical narrative as opposed to a chess game with winning moves and absolutes. I guess that is why I never got into the scenario challenges in the old General magazine from AH.


I agree with this. I think TotH is refreshing in that it casues one to think tactically, not mathematically. And you have to learn what your units can and cannot do, and that is including how far they can move, run, shoot etc.



It's really hard to think tactically when you don't know how far your units can move or what their combat capabilities are. The more I try to play the more I realize I can't without this information.

If I have to open up a blank map and put units on it in the editor, then go play it and see how far I can move them in one turn just to see what their movement value is, it's a big problem.

I've played the first tutorial scenario a few times and getting stuck in the open because I've run out of movement points and didn't know it is troublesome. Not knowing if I should hang out in fields or the forest because I don't know the cover bonuses is an issue with me. I can't think tactically when I'm given no info.

I had really high hopes for this game. I was craving a board-game like experience in a PC wargame. I love the scale, the map and mission editor is great, but the UI is just obtrusive to me actually playing. Sad to say, but it was easier for me to understand combat and decisions in War in the West than in this so far.

(in reply to blackcloud6)
Post #: 51
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 5:36:51 AM   
Gerry4321

 

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
Status: offline 		I would really consider using the VASL mod. So far the data on the counters is a good match I think. Units have 4 movement points (6 with a leader) - costs 1 to move into most hexes, woods and bldgs cost 2, grain costs 1.5.

The tank MPs seem to be accurate in TotH. Just a thought.

(in reply to chrisleko)
Post #: 52
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 6:20:34 AM   
Storm72


Posts: 40
Joined: 1/6/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkie

Never did I look at the numbers on the counter and think "Well my 76L has a 23% chance to hit if I drive it within 5 hexes of the side armor facing of the Panther giving me a 44.5% chance of penetrating hit... etc etc" I always looked at it as "I need to get a flank shot at that Panther so my infantry have a fighting chance of stopping this attack and if not Sgt.Johnson's squad is in big trouble in the village".


This is how I like to play as well.
For me its more fun to push counters - move - fire - be shot at - get pummeled or do some pummeling than poring over charts, graphs, ledgers, tables and flipping through hundreds of pages of rules to see what may or may not happen.



_____________________________

I spent half my money on Wargames - Women - Booze and Gambling. The other half I wasted.

(in reply to Monkie)
Post #: 53
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 6:48:06 AM   
Angiel


Posts: 128
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Toscana Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gerry
.....Units have 4 movement points (6 with a leader) - costs 1 to move into most hexes, woods and bldgs cost 2, grain costs 1.5......


Yes, it is so.
Plus there's a bonus for road movement (+ 1 hex), and if it moves together with a leader (+2 hex). If it moves together with a leader and by road +3 hex.
Now we have to understand the combat ratio.
But was the movement such a big secret can not be revealed by the authors?


_____________________________

Sorry for my bad English.

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(in reply to Gerry4321)
Post #: 54
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 7:04:35 AM   
Richie61


Posts: 584
Joined: 3/2/2009
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkie
Never did I look at the numbers on the counter and think "Well my 76L has a 23% chance to hit if I drive it within 5 hexes of the side armor facing of the Panther giving me a 44.5% chance of penetrating hit... etc etc" I always looked at it as "I need to get a flank shot at that Panther so my infantry have a fighting chance of stopping this attack and if not Sgt.Johnson's squad is in big trouble in the village".


This


_____________________________

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tzu




(in reply to Monkie)
Post #: 55
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 11:55:30 AM   
qwright38

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 2/25/2016
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Completely agree with DJE, I would think if this game could be an exact copy of ASL it would but it can't be as that would breach copyright. By changing little things that can be either worked out or fixed by mods we can have the game we want.

Great game!


(in reply to dje)
Post #: 56
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 12:47:56 PM   
Vinya

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/27/2016
Status: offline 		I totally agree with people saying they dont want to know wheter they have a 43% or a 12% chance to succeed in a given action, but we should have a good introduction to game mechanics...

For example, in ASL there is a fairly complex table (ordnance TH) that manages the bonus and penalties that have to be applied when ordnance shoots against something. This table has 23 firer based and 18 target based modifications. Some of this modifications include the number of MP the firer has seen another moving vehicle. If you shoot a moving target when it 'pops' in your view, you have to apply +4 to the die roll (2*6 sided dies, 2-12, the lower the better), while having a target adquired can provide -1 or -2 bonus. Not knowing how this modifiers work WILL cripple your chances of hitting anything and you will be wasting ammo (if you dont use regular AP) and shooting oportunities.

It is also very disapointing not having basic information on the UI, like how many MP you have used on a vehicle and how many you have left. Did any tanker in WW2 not know how far their tank could how and how long it would take? Those vital tactical details you should know before moving a tank (or any other unit) as you could get struck out of MP in a position the enemy will find and kill you. As it makes no sense shooting against an enemy you cannot effectively engage.

ASL is a very complex set of rules. There is no way to play if you dont know those rules (guess nobody likes being beated repeatedly because you dont know how to do it better). I am not saying we should have all the information, but we should have a lot more than what the game provides at the moment.

Regards

(in reply to qwright38)
Post #: 57
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 2:23:14 PM   
Peter Fisla


Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkie

Interesting discussion and how we each approach a "wargame". I always looked at the numbers on the counters as simply being the system by which results were obtained, either you created a result against your target or you didn't.

Never did I look at the numbers on the counter and think "Well my 76L has a 23% chance to hit if I drive it within 5 hexes of the side armor facing of the Panther giving me a 44.5% chance of penetrating hit... etc etc" I always looked at it as "I need to get a flank shot at that Panther so my infantry have a fighting chance of stopping this attack and if not Sgt.Johnson's squad is in big trouble in the village".

I see gaming as a historical narrative as opposed to a chess game with winning moves and absolutes. I guess that is why I never got into the scenario challenges in the old General magazine from AH.


Yes, this how I look at it was well...the historical narrative is what I was looking for.

(in reply to Monkie)
Post #: 58
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 3:24:04 PM   
iPhoneAppz

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 1/10/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vinya

I totally agree with people saying they dont want to know wheter they have a 43% or a 12% chance to succeed in a given action, but we should have a good introduction to game mechanics...

For example, in ASL there is a fairly complex table (ordnance TH) that manages the bonus and penalties that have to be applied when ordnance shoots against something. This table has 23 firer based and 18 target based modifications. Some of this modifications include the number of MP the firer has seen another moving vehicle. If you shoot a moving target when it 'pops' in your view, you have to apply +4 to the die roll (2*6 sided dies, 2-12, the lower the better), while having a target adquired can provide -1 or -2 bonus. Not knowing how this modifiers work WILL cripple your chances of hitting anything and you will be wasting ammo (if you dont use regular AP) and shooting oportunities.

It is also very disapointing not having basic information on the UI, like how many MP you have used on a vehicle and how many you have left. Did any tanker in WW2 not know how far their tank could how and how long it would take? Those vital tactical details you should know before moving a tank (or any other unit) as you could get struck out of MP in a position the enemy will find and kill you. As it makes no sense shooting against an enemy you cannot effectively engage.

ASL is a very complex set of rules. There is no way to play if you dont know those rules (guess nobody likes being beated repeatedly because you dont know how to do it better). I am not saying we should have all the information, but we should have a lot more than what the game provides at the moment.

Regards



Because of this, I'm on the hunt for a PDF of the ASL rulebook. If this game implements the ASL rules, I'd like to have the actual rules/tables required to play the game.

(in reply to Vinya)
Post #: 59
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 3:31:32 PM   
mainsworthy

 

Posts: 428
Joined: 9/3/2013
Status: offline 		you only need a couple of small charts, I don't know if its included in the vassal mod at vassalengine site

(in reply to iPhoneAppz)
Post #: 60
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