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RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 4:38:59 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 3065
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: offline 		Irrelevant

< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 2/29/2016 8:52:36 PM >

_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 61
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 5:00:21 PM   
MikeMarchant_ssl

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/26/2016
Status: offline 		Having the numbers available for those who are interested in them, in no way forces those who aren't interested in looking at them to do so.

Both sides of the argument can be equally happy if the data is published.


Best Wishes

Mike

(in reply to mainsworthy)
Post #: 62
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 5:12:25 PM   
Moltke71


Posts: 1253
Joined: 9/23/2000
Status: offline 		This discussion confirms my long-time suspicion that two types of people play wargames:

1. gamers

2. combat accountants.

_____________________________

Jim Cobb

(in reply to MikeMarchant_ssl)
Post #: 63
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 5:21:02 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 3065
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

This discussion confirms my long-time suspicion that two types of people play wargames:

1. gamers

2. combat accountants.



You forgot

3.Accountable Combative Gamers

_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to Moltke71)
Post #: 64
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 5:23:20 PM   
Angiel


Posts: 128
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Toscana Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl

Having the numbers available for those who are interested in them, in no way forces those who aren't interested in looking at them to do so.

Both sides of the argument can be equally happy if the data is published.




I think it's the best thing.

_____________________________

Sorry for my bad English.

https://www.facebook.com/NapoleonicBattles

Home page Digital Wargames:
https://leigna.wixsite.com/napoleonicbattles

(in reply to MikeMarchant_ssl)
Post #: 65
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 5:27:27 PM   
Moltke71


Posts: 1253
Joined: 9/23/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

This discussion confirms my long-time suspicion that two types of people play wargames:

1. gamers

2. combat accountants.





You forgot

3.Accountable Combative Gamers


Nah, #3 is just CYA for #2.

< Message edited by Bismarck -- 2/28/2016 5:28:20 PM >

_____________________________

Jim Cobb

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 66
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 5:47:51 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 3065
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: offline 		I don't own the game yet. Went to purchase last night but had a problem doing so. Support ticket sent.

In the meantime I read more than a few post that have raised concerns that this might not be a game for me. For me, my biggest hurdle is not the under the hood calculations, even though I posted an extensive thread early on that raised many points others have since release. The developer chose to go another route and I am forced to accept that. It's his game after all. I can live without knowing the correct firepower during the game and % chance of hits, rally etc.

What is now keeping me on the fence, which you may deem as combat accountant, I consider relevant information that needs to be conveyed. i.e How far a unit can move in a turn, how many movement points a unit has left, and the range it can fire {which gunner doesnt know his weapons range?)

I may have been able to overcome the overly heavy clicking and the lack of polish on combat results and a more thorough use of it, but the lack of information on unit characteristics in game is causing my biggest concern. Maybe that info is in the manual? IMO, it should be known in game.

_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to Moltke71)
Post #: 67
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 5:58:27 PM   
Moltke71


Posts: 1253
Joined: 9/23/2000
Status: offline 		Rebel,

Seriously, as one Missourian to another, I tend to share your concerns. I'm reviewing TotH so you may want to wait for my piece.

_____________________________

Jim Cobb

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 68
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 6:00:20 PM   
Gerry4321

 

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
Status: offline 		Agree with this.

I don't really need them as I have ASL but what about those that don't? It's OK to talk about playing for historical feel but many of those people have played ASL already and know the vehicles, etc. already


quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl

Having the numbers available for those who are interested in them, in no way forces those who aren't interested in looking at them to do so.

Both sides of the argument can be equally happy if the data is published.


Best Wishes

Mike


(in reply to MikeMarchant_ssl)
Post #: 69
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 6:04:06 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 3065
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

Rebel,

Seriously, as one Missourian to another, I tend to share your concerns. I'm reviewing TotH so you may want to wait for my piece.



Show me





Edit: Added the smile to a somewhat inside joke, otherwise sounds kind of dickish

< Message edited by Missouri_Rebel -- 2/28/2016 6:48:41 PM >

_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to Moltke71)
Post #: 70
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 6:04:20 PM   
mainsworthy

 

Posts: 428
Joined: 9/3/2013
Status: offline 		the couple of charts needed are in the vassalengine website vassal module

(in reply to Gerry4321)
Post #: 71
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 6:33:33 PM   
Franciscus


Posts: 809
Joined: 12/22/2010
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		Hi

I have never played SL or ASL, and am not a tactical wargamer. The buzz about this game nevertheless made me interested in exploring it, considering perhaps a future buy, but I am perplexed...

Do you guys mean that the available/remaining movement points of a unit are not shown anywhere ? There are no movement range indications/filter on-map ?

Regards

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 2/28/2016 6:34:59 PM >

_____________________________

Former AJE team member

(in reply to mainsworthy)
Post #: 72
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 6:38:46 PM   
mainsworthy

 

Posts: 428
Joined: 9/3/2013
Status: offline 		if you install the JMass VASL Mod from the mods and scenarios section, the Tank counters have Move points on the chit, and in ASL its well know infantry move a 4hexes double time 6hexes + one hex if on a road, leaders adds 2 to the 4

(in reply to Franciscus)
Post #: 73
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 6:49:08 PM   
Franciscus


Posts: 809
Joined: 12/22/2010
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		So, with VASL mod installed the units counters display their MP ? In a dynamic way, or just their base value, even if spent ?

Thanks

_____________________________

Former AJE team member

(in reply to mainsworthy)
Post #: 74
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 6:51:12 PM   
mainsworthy

 

Posts: 428
Joined: 9/3/2013
Status: offline 		static values, you generaly move one in one go, so you wont come back to it same turn

(in reply to Franciscus)
Post #: 75
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 6:56:34 PM   
Franciscus


Posts: 809
Joined: 12/22/2010
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		Thanks for your answers. Still on the fence, though...

_____________________________

Former AJE team member

(in reply to mainsworthy)
Post #: 76
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 7:02:46 PM   
Missouri_Rebel


Posts: 3065
Joined: 6/19/2006
From: Southern Missouri
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Thanks for your answers. Still on the fence, though...



go here now for actual play.

twitch.tv/idjester

Im going to catch a bit

_____________________________

**Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul
**A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have-Gerald Ford

(in reply to Franciscus)
Post #: 77
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 7:09:16 PM   
iPhoneAppz

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 1/10/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

I don't own the game yet. Went to purchase last night but had a problem doing so. Support ticket sent.

In the meantime I read more than a few post that have raised concerns that this might not be a game for me. For me, my biggest hurdle is not the under the hood calculations, even though I posted an extensive thread early on that raised many points others have since release. The developer chose to go another route and I am forced to accept that. It's his game after all. I can live without knowing the correct firepower during the game and % chance of hits, rally etc.

What is now keeping me on the fence, which you may deem as combat accountant, I consider relevant information that needs to be conveyed. i.e How far a unit can move in a turn, how many movement points a unit has left, and the range it can fire {which gunner doesnt know his weapons range?)

I may have been able to overcome the overly heavy clicking and the lack of polish on combat results and a more thorough use of it, but the lack of information on unit characteristics in game is causing my biggest concern. Maybe that info is in the manual? IMO, it should be known in game.

This.

It's not about being a combat accountant. It's about simulation. Wouldn't a leader know if his squad can make it over to that 'building over there' or not? Wouldn't he know that a wheat field provides cover? Wouldn't a tank commander know how far he can make it up a road in 2 minutes?

That's all I want.

(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 78
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 7:31:25 PM   
Richie61


Posts: 584
Joined: 3/2/2009
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: iPhoneAppz
It's not about being a combat accountant. It's about simulation. Wouldn't a leader know if his squad can make it over to that 'building over there' or not? Wouldn't he know that a wheat field provides cover? Wouldn't a tank commander know how far he can make it up a road in 2 minutes?

That's all I want.



Course he would. But after he read the manuals of war, he would need to be "battle born" and learn from the experience of playing war


_____________________________

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tzu




(in reply to iPhoneAppz)
Post #: 79
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 7:44:01 PM   
MikeMarchant_ssl

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 2/26/2016
Status: offline 		Generally military forces will learn all this stuff on the training ground long before they see a battle.


Best Wishes

Mike

(in reply to Richie61)
Post #: 80
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 8:03:21 PM   
Richie61


Posts: 584
Joined: 3/2/2009
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeMarchant_ssl

Generally military forces will learn all this stuff on the training ground long before they see a battle.


Best Wishes

Mike


True.
I wish all the young Engineers I work with could take their book training and apply it to the real day to day
world of Fire Protection without screwing the pooch for years before they learn how to apply it

_____________________________

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tzu




(in reply to MikeMarchant_ssl)
Post #: 81
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 9:16:32 PM   
armonica

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 4/13/2008
Status: offline 		I believe that for most of the ASL players, including me, those numbers, charts and tables were part of the fun.
To decide whether to risk taking that shot, to turn that corner, based on the actual values of that unit was part of the fun as well.
Now if this game claim to be inspired from ASL, stripping it from one of the ASL main features seems quite odd, after all this is
now the only wargame I now of, without any data/info on the units.
If every other wargame on the planet uses them, maybe there is a reason.
Anyhow against my best judgement, I ended up buying this game for support hoping that along the way things might improve, but
I have the feeling that the devs really don't like numbers.....
Having countless wargames on my hard drive, this is the most regrettable purchase so far.

(in reply to Richie61)
Post #: 82
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 10:00:05 PM   
Perelandra67

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 7/7/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkie

Interesting discussion and how we each approach a "wargame". I always looked at the numbers on the counters as simply being the system by which results were obtained, either you created a result against your target or you didn't.

Never did I look at the numbers on the counter and think "Well my 76L has a 23% chance to hit if I drive it within 5 hexes of the side armor facing of the Panther giving me a 44.5% chance of penetrating hit... etc etc" I always looked at it as "I need to get a flank shot at that Panther so my infantry have a fighting chance of stopping this attack and if not Sgt.Johnson's squad is in big trouble in the village".

I see gaming as a historical narrative as opposed to a chess game with winning moves and absolutes. I guess that is why I never got into the scenario challenges in the old General magazine from AH.


Yes, this how I look at it was well...the historical narrative is what I was looking for.



Most ASL'ers aren't going to like this game. It's lacks a major portion of why we like ASL.
I'm not saying it's a bad game at all. It's just too simple and doesn't give the ASL-type wargamer the information needed to enjoy the historical narrative as envisioned by the developers. The fact that all these ASL mods (I get confused as thew which ASL mod is which) came out right away should say something....

Still, great job and obviously tons of time and hard work went into it.

(in reply to Peter Fisla)
Post #: 83
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 10:08:34 PM   
Richie61


Posts: 584
Joined: 3/2/2009
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline 		LOL! From a Squad Leader player from 1977, this reminds me of the old days of SL vs ASL Some ASL'ers just make me laugh

One thing that seems to be over looked is that TotH may bring PC gamer's to ASL board games and the enjoyment of pushing cardboard counters around face to face with a human

< Message edited by Richie61 -- 2/28/2016 10:09:04 PM >

_____________________________

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tzu




(in reply to Missouri_Rebel)
Post #: 84
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 11:16:01 PM   
Perelandra67

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 7/7/2015
Status: offline 		true enough Richie61.

the "problem" with this game is that it is almost a great game that it leaves me, and perhaps others, feeling like "man, why didn't they go for more?"

The developers speak of historical narrative over and against "spreadsheets and tables and %'s" but for SOME people, not all, that "immersion" comes from the desire to make plans according to data we can interpret, not data that is "hidden." The lack of information here is unfortunate.

(in reply to Richie61)
Post #: 85
RE: Combat Values - 2/28/2016 11:33:10 PM   
kylania

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 1/2/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Richie61
One thing that seems to be over looked is that TotH may bring PC gamer's to ASL board games and the enjoyment of pushing cardboard counters around face to face with a human


Absolutely has for me. Yanks 2 is on pre-order!

(in reply to Richie61)
Post #: 86
RE: Combat Values - 2/29/2016 12:03:31 AM   
Richie61


Posts: 584
Joined: 3/2/2009
From: Massachusetts
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kylania


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richie61
One thing that seems to be over looked is that TotH may bring PC gamer's to ASL board games and the enjoyment of pushing cardboard counters around face to face with a human


Absolutely has for me. Yanks 2 is on pre-order!

Very cool!

Old School Tactical here. Waiting for the box set now.
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/170669/old-school-tactical

I have two boys to play board games with now. Panzer, Valor & Victory, Band of Brothers, Combat Commander, etc.
I tried SL and ASL, but they didn't care for them Said the games were too complex and had too much details that took away from the tactical fun part of playing.


_____________________________

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

Sun Tzu




(in reply to kylania)
Post #: 87
RE: Combat Values - 2/29/2016 12:44:36 AM   
FroBodine


Posts: 872
Joined: 5/5/2007
From: Brentwood, California (not the OJ one)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

Rebel,

Seriously, as one Missourian to another, I tend to share your concerns. I'm reviewing TotH so you may want to wait for my piece.


Jim - please let us know when your review is available. I respect your insight, and have all the same concerns about lack of information that lots of folks have.

(in reply to Moltke71)
Post #: 88
RE: Combat Values - 2/29/2016 1:55:37 AM   
surfcandy

 

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline 		Is the fixed A-H fire power affected when firing in good order at an adjacent enemy?

(in reply to FroBodine)
Post #: 89
RE: Combat Values - 2/29/2016 2:14:51 AM   
Gerry4321

 

Posts: 874
Joined: 3/24/2003
Status: offline 		Doubled for adjacent I believe.

(in reply to surfcandy)
Post #: 90
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