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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/26/2016 9:46:05 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

I have come to the habit not to make patrol areas but simply to have them stay in one, if important, hex. I don't
see why they should find more targets by hopping around within a restricted area rather than stay in a specific
hex.

If you do it this way it can get somewhat simpler - by using the "remain on station" button and, when the boat has
returned to its base for refuelling (which it does automatically), you just mark its next operational hex (keeping
the "remain on station ") and it stays there till it needs to go back for refuelling again.

Fred

Unless something has changed, if a sub is set to "remain on station" it will not react to a target passing by within the 1 hex reaction range, assuming you're setting the range to 1 and not 0 of course. So instead of 7 possible target hexes, you're limiting yourself to only one possible intercept, the submarine's hex.

Good reason for why I don't recommend it.

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Post #: 31

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/26/2016 9:47:10 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

I have come to the habit not to make patrol areas but simply to have them stay in one, if important, hex. I don't
see why they should find more targets by hopping around within a restricted area rather than stay in a specific
hex.

If you do it this way it can get somewhat simpler - by using the "remain on station" button and, when the boat has
returned to its base for refuelling (which it does automatically), you just mark its next operational hex (keeping
the "remain on station ") and it stays there till it needs to go back for refuelling again.

Fred

Unless something has changed, if a sub is set to "remain on station" it will not react to a target passing by within the 1 hex reaction range, assuming you're setting the range to 1 and not 0 of course. So instead of 7 possible target hexes, you're limiting yourself to only one possible intercept, the submarine's hex.

+1

This is the single biggest reason to NEVER give a sub a simple destination hex with a Do Not Retire setting.

If you want to deploy it in a single hex, far better to give it a one hex patrol pattern w/o a Do Not Retire order.

Do Not Retire prevents reaction.

THe same is true for surface fleets. If you want them to react, give them a patrol order. This works GREAT for ASW TFs.

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Post #: 32

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/26/2016 11:28:05 PM

rustysi

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quote:

If you're trying to emulate "wolf pack" tactics just have several single sub TFs operating in a tight area (not the same hex)

Hey gorn, why not? I do this often against the AI and have had no problems.

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Post #: 33

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/26/2016 11:45:45 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

If you're trying to emulate "wolf pack" tactics just have several single sub TFs operating in a tight area (not the same hex)

Hey gorn, why not? I do this often against the AI and have had no problems.

I have to admit that in part I'm going off of gut feeling, but I've never had a situation where I thought a better result was obtained by the presence of two sub TFs in the same hex by accident or design.
My math says the more hexes that are being patrolled (given that the patrol zone is intelligently designed) the greater the chance of delivering torpedo hits to something.
I have had enemy TFs pass through a hex where more than one of my sub TFs happened (by chance) to be operating and I got less than optimal results or no results at all.
Don't know why it would be or if it is actually a part of the game engine that two subs in the same hex deliver poor results.

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Post #: 34

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/27/2016 10:57:50 AM

Von Weber

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quote:

Unless something has changed, if a sub is set to "remain on station" it will not react to a target passing by within the 1 hex reaction range, assuming you're setting the range to 1 and not 0 of course. So instead of 7 possible target hexes, you're limiting yourself to only one possible intercept, the submarine's hex.

If I understand quite right subs should never be put on remain on station so it will not be able to react and controll 7 hexes.
But if I set it retirement allowed it will tend to retun to its port-base

Thanks to BBfanboy for the skill guide.
How many ASW capability ships needed to protect a convoy. I mean if I have some info that a convoy of 7AK ships is garded by 5 ASW ships, should I send my subs to intercept or it is just waste of time and torpedos

What is ratio between cargo ships and ASW escort ships to keep convoy well protected.

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Post #: 35

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/27/2016 11:03:04 AM

Von Weber

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the boat remains in one hex for an extended period of time ASW will have an easier time finding the sub.

How long does it last this extended period of time?

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Post #: 36

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/27/2016 11:47:07 AM

LoBaron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Weber
If I understand quite right subs should never be put on remain on station so it will not be able to react and controll 7 hexes.
But if I set it retirement allowed it will tend to retun to its port-base

Set a patrol zone, 0 days.

The TF will remain in the patrol zone until either low on fuel or ammo and may react into adjacent hexes if reaction is set to 1.

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Post #: 37

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/27/2016 12:20:26 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Weber
If I understand quite right subs should never be put on remain on station so it will not be able to react and controll 7 hexes.
But if I set it retirement allowed it will tend to retun to its port-base

Set a patrol zone, 0 days.

The TF will remain in the patrol zone until either low on fuel or ammo and may react into adjacent hexes if reaction is set to 1.

Yes this is what I meant by a one hex patrol pattern.

Give it a patrol order.
Instead of letting the AI pick the patrol pattern (bottom choice on the list).

Pick the intended hex as the first hex of the patrol pattern and then don't assign a hex for the second and third hexes of the player defined pattern.

You leave the duration it will remain in the hex at 0 since you have only chosen one hex it will patrol that hex only.

The only tine you need to set durations for stays in the hexes is if you choose more than one hex.

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Post #: 38

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/27/2016 12:23:52 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Von Weber

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

If the boat remains in one hex for an extended period of time ASW will have an easier time finding the sub.

How long does it last this extended period of time?

What he means is that anytime a sub stays in the same hex for more than one turn it risks the enemy identifying it and sending something out after it.

If you give a sub a do not retire order for a destination hex it will remain there until you remember to move it.

Many turns can pass without you remembering to check on your sub and that's when it gets located, it Detection Level soars to 10 and an ASW TF comes looking for it.

Sometimes even when setting patrol patterns I will set a 2 day duration in a particular hex, but never more than 2 days. Usually I only allow a single day stay in any given hex of the patrol pattern.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 4/27/2016 12:25:57 PM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/27/2016 7:07:22 PM

geofflambert

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As much as possible, identify ambush zones away from his bases. As his ASW air crews get better and better they become more and more lethal. Early on the worst they do is spot you and send DDs to get you. If you're in an area where you only see an occasional search plane or none at all you don't have to worry about DDs coming after you. If you're Japanese and we're talking about the ones with float planes stay the heck out of his CAP range anywhere and pick up intel (and write it down) of where his routes are so you can set up there. Your float planes will give you any or all of the following: TF size, TF heading, ship type and the qty for each type.
Here is a page from one of my logs. The info you get may or may not be true or entirely true but if you start seeing a pattern it's no mistake.

You can see I didn't start immediately noting heading but it's worth noting if you get a report on it.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 4/27/2016 7:14:01 PM >

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/27/2016 10:36:27 PM

rustysi

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quote:

But if I set it retirement allowed it will tend to retun to its port-base

Yes, what this means is that the TF will go (or attempt to go) to the point set and then return to base.

quote:

How long does it last this extended period of time?

If you set only one patrol zone it can stay there almost indefinitely.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 4/27/2016 10:40:30 PM >

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Post #: 41

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/28/2016 12:54:28 AM

BBfanboy

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Looks like 10 months of game time and that's all you got! It sucks to have IJN Intel capability!

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/28/2016 8:37:41 AM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Looks like 10 months of game time and that's all you got! It sucks to have IJN Intel capability!

You are correct. The Brits are and always have been the best at collecting intel and the US is merely a junior partner with a much bigger budget.
It is striking how poor Japanese intelligence was but they were just emerging from a dark age and were just beginning to copy (and improve on) Western tech and methods.
I also must be blunt; they were racists and were thus ill equipped to field intelligence agents who would not be spotted immediately.
In game terms collect every tidbit you get and don't just apply it to your current PBEM but use it as a guide in your successive PBEMs

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Post #: 43

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/28/2016 8:43:47 AM

geofflambert

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To further expound; it is amazing how bad the Germans were at intel in both WWs. They also had a superiority complex which led to complacency regarding the security of Enigma as just one example. They actually believed that everyone else were like children compared to themselves. Who were the actual children?

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Post #: 44

RE: Auto sub ops - 4/28/2016 9:39:00 AM

wdolson

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The British empire was fading by the eve of WW II, but because they had such a large and multicultural empire, they had more experience with a larger number of cultures than anybody else. When it came to sending in agents to snoop around, they could usually find someone loyal to the British who looked like the culture they were trying to penetrate, or at least someone who could pass themselves off as a foreign laborer.

The Germans had gotten into the empire game very late and lost what little they had in WW I. There were a lot of German archeologists who worked in the Middle East and some other parts of the world, but the German pool of talent who could go abroad and mix in with the locals was more limited.

The US had a large mix of immigrants from all over the world which did give them a good pool to draw from, but the US government had a lot less experience with world affairs. US spy efforts suffered from a lack of leadership.

The Japanese were very handicapped ethnically. Eastern Asians were fairly small minorities in the bulk of the Allied nations. China was the only place a Japanese native could blend in. The Japanese had very few allies who looked much like Allied peoples, except for some Indian defectors, but I don't think the Indian defectors yielded many people who would make good spy material.

Japanese spying before the war was highly effective though. Japanese spies around the SRA and into Burma compiled detailed data on troop strengths and facilities and there were many disaffected natives who bought the Co-prosperity Sphere idea that Japanese spies had pretty good intel on the morale of Allied units in these areas too. It's one of the reasons the Japanese rolled through the SRA so easily.

They had a tougher time collecting intel from natives in the Philippines because the Americans were more liked there than in any other western occupied country. They still had spies on the ground who traveled around the PI collecting data on the defenses.

The further the Japanese tried to collect intel, the less they got. The US and UK were mostly black boxes to them. Many senior Japanese leaders didn't quite comprehend the size of the US or it's industrial capacity. Yammamoto was the only senior Japanese official who had been to the US and collected intel. He also had a feel for the American character and knew Japan was unlikely to beat them.

Bill

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/28/2016 10:27:41 AM

geofflambert

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Bill, you really need to get more sleep.

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/28/2016 8:48:37 PM

Macclan5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The British empire was fading by the eve of WW II, but because they had such a large and multicultural empire, they had more experience with a larger number of cultures than anybody else. When it came to sending in agents to snoop around, they could usually find someone loyal to the British who looked like the culture they were trying to penetrate, or at least someone who could pass themselves off as a foreign laborer.

Bill

Two thoughts come to mind.

1) ..quote John LeCarre - the Honorable School boy... "..shall Kim the British sleuth slip quietly to the tribal fires once again to spy?" Something like that. It captures much of your sentiment Bill.

2) The British created a multicultural Empire because of ENGLISH COOKING !

Really.

They had to invade India and Hong Kong just to develop a palatable cuisine !

Disclosure: I grew up on 1st generation English Cooking in Canada ....

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/28/2016 9:03:40 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The British empire was fading by the eve of WW II, but because they had such a large and multicultural empire, they had more experience with a larger number of cultures than anybody else. When it came to sending in agents to snoop around, they could usually find someone loyal to the British who looked like the culture they were trying to penetrate, or at least someone who could pass themselves off as a foreign laborer.

Bill

Two thoughts come to mind.

1) ..quote John LeCarre - the Honorable School boy... "..shall Kim the British sleuth slip quietly to the tribal fires once again to spy?" Something like that. It captures much of your sentiment Bill.

2) The British created a multicultural Empire because of ENGLISH COOKING !

Really.

They had to invade India and Hong Kong just to develop a palatable cuisine !

Disclosure: I grew up on 1st generation English Cooking in Canada ....

Reminds me eerily of US cooking. Subtract Cajun, Creole and Tex-Mex and what do you have left?

Well, if you live in Minnesota, there's Swedish meatballs, yum.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 4/28/2016 9:39:17 PM >

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/28/2016 9:11:45 PM

geofflambert

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The great American novel

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/29/2016 12:09:46 AM

jcjordan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The British empire was fading by the eve of WW II, but because they had such a large and multicultural empire, they had more experience with a larger number of cultures than anybody else. When it came to sending in agents to snoop around, they could usually find someone loyal to the British who looked like the culture they were trying to penetrate, or at least someone who could pass themselves off as a foreign laborer.

Bill

Two thoughts come to mind.

1) ..quote John LeCarre - the Honorable School boy... "..shall Kim the British sleuth slip quietly to the tribal fires once again to spy?" Something like that. It captures much of your sentiment Bill.

2) The British created a multicultural Empire because of ENGLISH COOKING !

Really.

They had to invade India and Hong Kong just to develop a palatable cuisine !

Disclosure: I grew up on 1st generation English Cooking in Canada ....

Reminds me eerily of US cooking. Subtract Cajun, Creole and Tex-Mex and what do you have left?

Well, if you live in Minnesota, there's Swedish meatballs, yum.

Well there's the southern foods - fried or bbq'd along w/ some corn squeezin's

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/29/2016 2:59:06 AM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The British empire was fading by the eve of WW II, but because they had such a large and multicultural empire, they had more experience with a larger number of cultures than anybody else. When it came to sending in agents to snoop around, they could usually find someone loyal to the British who looked like the culture they were trying to penetrate, or at least someone who could pass themselves off as a foreign laborer.

Bill

Two thoughts come to mind.

1) ..quote John LeCarre - the Honorable School boy... "..shall Kim the British sleuth slip quietly to the tribal fires once again to spy?" Something like that. It captures much of your sentiment Bill.

2) The British created a multicultural Empire because of ENGLISH COOKING !

Really.

They had to invade India and Hong Kong just to develop a palatable cuisine !

Disclosure: I grew up on 1st generation English Cooking in Canada ....

Reminds me eerily of US cooking. Subtract Cajun, Creole and Tex-Mex and what do you have left?

Well, if you live in Minnesota, there's Swedish meatballs, yum.

Well there's the southern foods - fried or bbq'd along w/ some corn squeezin's

Oddly, that sounds like it might be digestable. Can you give me a sample without skimping on the butter?

I must remind you, obviously I'm a reptile and thus lactose intolerant, but don't try and hold back on any butter with me. Nothing escapes me, not even cows with wings.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 4/29/2016 3:07:30 AM >

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/29/2016 3:32:29 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Reminds me eerily of US cooking. Subtract Cajun, Creole and Tex-Mex and what do you have left?

What the ... how did Madonna's infamous pointy bra get onto a plate in a Crisco commercial. Did she have to use that stuff to get it off?

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/29/2016 4:15:31 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Reminds me eerily of US cooking. Subtract Cajun, Creole and Tex-Mex and what do you have left?

What the ... how did Madonna's infamous pointy bra get onto a plate in a Crisco commercial. Did she have to use that stuff to get it off?

I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out what food item those could ever be. I got nothin'.

And the ad copy. What were folks using before? Petroleum jelly?

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/29/2016 6:37:16 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Reminds me eerily of US cooking. Subtract Cajun, Creole and Tex-Mex and what do you have left?

What the ... how did Madonna's infamous pointy bra get onto a plate in a Crisco commercial. Did she have to use that stuff to get it off?

I know! They're strawberries that have been breaded and fried.

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/29/2016 6:40:18 PM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Reminds me eerily of US cooking. Subtract Cajun, Creole and Tex-Mex and what do you have left?

What the ... how did Madonna's infamous pointy bra get onto a plate in a Crisco commercial. Did she have to use that stuff to get it off?

I'm wracking my brain trying to figure out what food item those could ever be. I got nothin'.

And the ad copy. What were folks using before? Petroleum jelly?

Well, you do have a pretty good rack on top of your brain.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 4/29/2016 6:53:22 PM >

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/29/2016 10:10:35 PM

Bullwinkle58

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Since this thread is off the road, past the fields, and in the river anyway . . .

Rack vs. wrack

Wrack is roughly synonymous with wreck. As a noun, it refers to destruction or wreckage. As a verb, it means to wreck. It is now mostly an archaic word, preserved mainly in a few common phrases.

Rack has many definitions, but the one that makes it easily confused with wrack is to torture. This sense comes from the use of medieval torture devices�called racks�on which victims� bodies were painfully stretched. So, figuratively speaking, to rack something is to torture it, especially in manner that resembles stretching.

Common rack/wrack phrases

Rack [one�s] brain

Rack [one�s] brain is one common phrase in which rack in the torture-related sense is figuratively extended. To rack one�s brain is to torture it or to stretch it by thinking very hard.

To wrack one�s brain would be to wreck it. This might sort of make sense in some figurative uses, but rack is the standard spelling where the phrase means to think very hard. Wrack [one�s] brain is so common, though, that we have no choice but to consider it an accepted variant (some dictionaries agree with this).
Nerve-racking

In the phrasal adjective nerve-racking, rack is again used in the sense meaning to torture. Something that is nerve-racking tortures the nerves or figuratively stretches them.

Wrack, again, makes some sense, though. We can think of nerve-wracking as meaning wrecking the nerves instead of torturing the nerves, in which case the spelling is perfectly justifiable. But this doesn�t change the fact that nerve-racking is the original form, the more common one, and the one that is generally preferred in edited writing, for what that�s worth.

Wrack and ruin

The one common phrase in which wrack undoubtedly makes more sense is wrack and ruin, which is just an emphatic, somewhat archaic-sounding way of saying wreckage or ruin or, in other words, great destruction.

Rack up

It�s hard to imagine a context in which wrack up would make sense. Rack up has several definitions, including (1) to accumulate, and (2) to prepare billiard balls for the start of a game.

http://grammarist.com/usage/rack-wrack/

The larger-font portion clearly shows I am very old, and so is my dictionary.

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/29/2016 11:11:39 PM

BBfanboy

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Informative, but I think the Gorn has a predilection for the noun "rack" and at least some of the definitions for it. I blame Madonna's cones.

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/29/2016 11:57:48 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Informative, but I think the Gorn has a predilection for the noun "rack" and at least some of the definitions for it. I blame Madonna's cones.

If you can't hang your hat on it it's not a rack.

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/30/2016 2:34:15 AM

geofflambert

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I have something you could hang your hat on, but I would require some Viagra first. It's far more common to tell someone that they have a nice rack rather than try to hang your hat on it. What is the correct etiquette when you try to hang your hat and it hits the ground? "Sorry my dear, there must be something wrong with my hat!"

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RE: Auto sub ops - 4/30/2016 3:20:57 AM

geofflambert

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Pool anyone? If you're game wrack 'em up. Make sure the eight ball is in the middle. House rule, no bridges.

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