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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/7/2016 8:46:04 PM   
IJV

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Battle of LA.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Not stellar. But not too bad either. I just need to keep grinding! Looking at earlier attacks I either got a bad roll on this attack or the previous two was good ones.

Hoping the former....



- Yeah, it'll be important to keep at it even if outcomes aren't ideal just in that if you leave the Japanese alone they'll start to accumulate (per-unit) forts - forts alone you can probably deal with at present numbers, crap terrain alone you can probably deal with at present numbers...both, and it starts to get a bit more questionable!

I do have some armchair strategist questions for you:

- Your guys ought to recover disablements more effectively than the Japanese; that said, what sort of an available reserve force do you have beyond the stuff that's at LA right now? Is your ability to swap out used-up infantry divisions etc limited, or do you have a pool of units you can cycle through? I imagine you'll continue to see Japanese trickling in to LA, so I feel like you should be planning to fight at at least current odds on the ground in the short term...

- Do you have an estimate of the total size of the force landed by the Japanese? X many divisions, Y many artillery regiments etc;

- Following on from that, do you have an estimate of the total shipping the Japanese have committed to this? 100, 250, 500 merchants? Keeping a large force in combat will require a fair amount of supply; I hope your artillery (at least at LA) will keep busy on any 'off' days; depending on how generously supplied they are, this might be a race to see who can beat each other's army up first, or it might be a race of your supplies at San Diego against the Japanese supplies period...

- Following on from that - do you have any mobile coastal artillery on the West Coast? Thinking ahead a step or two here; given you have an opportunity to zap some merchants, you will probably continue to have difficulty getting naval attack aircraft to function without severe losses (just in that that seems to be the way things always go...), but you should, I suppose, end up with a situation where the Japanese are forced to either land in or evacuate from a hex with your troops in it; I'd probably make sure that any advance out of LA has at least some coast guns (if you have any free)...

- Do you have any sort of naval force at Panama? How tight is the blockade around LA/SD etc? (I mean - as far as you know)

e: where do you have the West Coast army HQ? Is it in range of the LA/etc battle area? Might be a useful quick boost to effectiveness there if it's not...

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/7/2016 9:24:15 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IJV
I do have some armchair strategist questions for you:

- Your guys ought to recover disablements more effectively than the Japanese; that said, what sort of an available reserve force do you have beyond the stuff that's at LA right now? Is your ability to swap out used-up infantry divisions etc limited, or do you have a pool of units you can cycle through? I imagine you'll continue to see Japanese trickling in to LA, so I feel like you should be planning to fight at at least current odds on the ground in the short term...


I have 4 divisions ready in reserve. 3 up north (Seattle, Portland and Tacoma). 1 at SF. If needed I will cycle troops out from LA and let the reserve divisions take their place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IJV
- Do you have an estimate of the total size of the force landed by the Japanese? X many divisions, Y many artillery regiments etc;


Going a bit by memory here I think Jeff had 12 divisions prepping for targets in the North. Some of them have been seen in this OP so I think its safe to assume most if not all of them are on the WC right now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IJV
- Following on from that, do you have an estimate of the total shipping the Japanese have committed to this? 100, 250, 500 merchants? Keeping a large force in combat will require a fair amount of supply; I hope your artillery (at least at LA) will keep busy on any 'off' days; depending on how generously supplied they are, this might be a race to see who can beat each other's army up first, or it might be a race of your supplies at San Diego against the Japanese supplies period...


I have absolutely no idea tbh. But its a large chunk of the merchant fleet. Then again Japanese IDs are a lot lighter then US/USMC ones so it might be less then I think. But I bet he is burning through hell of a lot of fuel! There are a lot of ships moving around.

Not too worried about supplies at SD tbh. I think this will be decided long before it will run out. Jeff can´t afford a stalemate here. Even if he starts loading troops today it will be months before they will be in position in the DEI, SOPAC and Burma. I might be a bit cocky here but I think he will attack SD once. See the forts and then start packing up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: IJV
- Following on from that - do you have any mobile coastal artillery on the West Coast? Thinking ahead a step or two here; given you have an opportunity to zap some merchants, you will probably continue to have difficulty getting naval attack aircraft to function without severe losses (just in that that seems to be the way things always go...), but you should, I suppose, end up with a situation where the Japanese are forced to either land in or evacuate from a hex with your troops in it; I'd probably make sure that any advance out of LA has at least some coast guns (if you have any free)...

- Do you have any sort of naval force at Panama? How tight is the blockade around LA/SD etc? (I mean - as far as you know)

e: where do you have the West Coast army HQ? Is it in range of the LA/etc battle area? Might be a useful quick boost to effectiveness there if it's not...


I have some CD guns available. 2 USMC defense battalions, 1 US CD battalion and a big US CD regiment. The former two were held up at a paradrop but are unloading in LA now. They won´t hit anything but they will absorb a lot of the bombardments.

I have a lot of stuff at Panama including some slow BBs. But I´m not going to send anything towards the WC. I would say 80% of the IJN is there including KB and MKB. No point in throwing VPs at him.

WC HQ and NORPAC HQ are both at Bakersfield I think. They are prepping for LA and SD. Corps HQ are prepping too but I will have to fly one in to SD for it to have effect. Range is only 1 or 3 if I remember correctly.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 3:54:14 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

Anyone curious how P47s do when available in 1/43?


Why, yes -- yes I am!

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 8:05:06 AM   
JocMeister

 

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_____________________________________________________________________________

I´ll be leaving town for at least a week starting Saturday night. Have a fun 450km drive alone with 2 kids in the car. Figured it was better to go during the night so they will sleep. And with no traffic I can usually do the trip in 3,5-4 hours.

I´m hoping we can squeeze two turn in before I leave but its up to Jeff. I still havn´t gotten the turn file from last turn. I fear Jeff is suffering a bit of AE burnout as pace have slowed to a crawl lately. I think a week rest will do him good.

If we can get two turns in I hope at least I´ll be able to see the start of Pencil.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 8:41:23 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Pencil will be divided into 2 parts. First we will land at Port Blair and Little Andaman. BFs and engineers will go with the first wave. I hope to establish an airbase very quickly. I have a small 2nd wave on more BFs and engineers that are unprepped for any target. These will either be landed at PB or Little Andaman.

2nd part will see the invasion of the lower parts of the Andamans. Japanese resistance on the ground is expected to be minimal. There are Japanese surface assets in the area. Or at least were 2 months back where both CAs and BBs where spotted outside Chittagong.

The Allies have brought overwhelming force though including 8 BBs, 6 CAs, 8 CLs and 30+ DDs. What worried me are air strikes and subs. Until I can get LBA up at Port Blair we will be quite vulnerable. Port Blair will be bombarded next turn though and hopefully the airfield will be closed. That means 11-13 hexes from Rangoon. A long trip even for Nells/Betties.

I have intentionally taken a big risk here by leaving my merchants pretty much unprotected. Instead of embedding ASW/SCTFs we have several roaming ASW TFs and SCTFs instead. All with react "1". I hope radar and nights search will pick any approaching ships up and the SCTF will react into them before they can reach the merchants. We shall see how that works out.

I´ll also be putting some smaller CL/DD forces between Japanese LBA and the Andamans. I hope they will draw any strikes away from merchants, CVs and BBs.

As can be seen in the screen below I´m going in extremely heavy compared to the defenses. But I started prepping for this long before SIGINT started pointing towards a Japanese WC invasion. This was to be THE Allied OP of 42. Japanese invasion of India put that temporarily on hold. But now its time to go.

I have personally always felt that the importance of the Andamans are underestimated. Allied presence here puts a tremendous amount of pressure both on Burma but also on Sumatra, Thailand and Malaysia. Jeff now has a very, very long coast to guard. With bad infrastructure and good defensive terrain...

This is just the 1st part with lower quality troops. The 2nd part (Pencil II) will follow. As I said Jeff now has a lot of ground to cover with the few troops he has available stuck in the jungle in Northern Burma.

To sum things up. Jeff is in big doodoo. And it will get a lot worse in about a month.




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< Message edited by JocMeister -- 7/8/2016 8:46:31 AM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 1:24:21 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
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Status: offline 		Oh, man, the P-47 alone is why nobody is ever going to try this again.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 4:11:00 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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Status: offline 		Why land full divisions on the dot bases with so much Japanese stuff elsewhere?

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 4:23:30 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Oh, man, the P-47 alone is why nobody is ever going to try this again.
I expect an enterprising Japanese player will do a cost benefit analysis of a mid-1942 invasion of L.A. and S.D. before the forts can be built to Lvl 9. The decision to invade will be whether the permanent cost in VP from the sacrificial LCUs is worth the benefits of destroying aircraft factories and shipbuilding at those locations. They produce much of the top end fighters and nearly all search planes. Destruction of either would be a massive change in the airwar since the U.S. economy has no way to reallocate its priorities or capacities.

S.D. isn't so critical as a shipbuilding site, but L.A. would be problematic since a large number of APA, LSD and other specialty shipping is built there.

If successful the Japanese have plenty of time to rebuild the LCUs lost before the Allies can take advantage of any shortage of LCUs available for the defense.


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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 4:34:04 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Why land full divisions on the dot bases with so much Japanese stuff elsewhere?


I,m actually just going to land 1/3rd of divisions at everything beside PB and LA. Only 1 BDE will land at Great Nicobar.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 4:40:36 PM   
poodlebrain

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Why land full divisions on the dot bases with so much Japanese stuff elsewhere?
It does seem an inefficient use of shipping, but it will certainly discourage any counter-invasions. Seeing how little the Allies have elsewhere, their entire naval power must be in the theater. Might as well use it when you know the Japanese are elsewhere, and won't be coming anytime soon.

I kind of wish Jocke would have been slightly more aggressive and used regiments for the lesser targets then followed up with an invasion of Moulmein using the freed up divisions. Control of Moulmein allows the isolation of Burma, and Moulmein is an excellent defensive position.


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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 4:47:54 PM   
Mike McCreery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Why land full divisions on the dot bases with so much Japanese stuff elsewhere?
It does seem an inefficient use of shipping, but it will certainly discourage any counter-invasions. Seeing how little the Allies have elsewhere, their entire naval power must be in the theater. Might as well use it when you know the Japanese are elsewhere, and won't be coming anytime soon.

I kind of wish Jocke would have been slightly more aggressive and used regiments for the lesser targets then followed up with an invasion of Moulmein using the freed up divisions. Control of Moulmein allows the isolation of Burma, and Moulmein is an excellent defensive position.



If he had had a crystal ball on the condition of the defenses I am sure he would have attended to it :]

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 4:49:38 PM   
Andav

 

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quote:

I kind of wish Jocke would have been slightly more aggressive ...


quote:

This is just the 1st part with lower quality troops. The 2nd part (Pencil II) will follow.


No. 2 Pencil is coming. I think we need to wait to see where he goes!

Wa



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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 4:54:48 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Why land full divisions on the dot bases with so much Japanese stuff elsewhere?
It does seem an inefficient use of shipping, but it will certainly discourage any counter-invasions. Seeing how little the Allies have elsewhere, their entire naval power must be in the theater. Might as well use it when you know the Japanese are elsewhere, and won't be coming anytime soon.

I kind of wish Jocke would have been slightly more aggressive and used regiments for the lesser targets then followed up with an invasion of Moulmein using the freed up divisions. Control of Moulmein allows the isolation of Burma, and Moulmein is an excellent defensive position.



No need to worry. I´m 100% sure Pencil II will make you happy!

Oh, and I don´t have most of the naval power here. I have about half of it. The rest is busy with Paper and Paperclip!

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 7/8/2016 4:58:23 PM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:00:45 PM   
AcePylut


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Status: offline 		So let me get this straight - if the Japs take LA, then all the aircraft factories there go "poof" and the Allies are no longer able to produce those aircraft?

That, to me, is a game engine error that should be fixed... because think about it - if the base is taken before these factories come on-line (or even if they are "online) - the US wouldn't build the airplane factories elsewhere?

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:06:40 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

So let me get this straight - if the Japs take LA, then all the aircraft factories there go "poof" and the Allies are no longer able to produce those aircraft?

That, to me, is a game engine error that should be fixed... because think about it - if the base is taken before these factories come on-line (or even if they are "online) - the US wouldn't build the airplane factories elsewhere?


Yepp, that´s it. Once the allies recapture it they will revert to vehicle factories or something like that. I think the same is true for Japanese aircraft factories?

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:07:19 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

So let me get this straight - if the Japs take LA, then all the aircraft factories there go "poof" and the Allies are no longer able to produce those aircraft?

That, to me, is a game engine error that should be fixed... because think about it - if the base is taken before these factories come on-line (or even if they are "online) - the US wouldn't build the airplane factories elsewhere?


They go poof. Fixing that is not really in the scope of any revisions to the game code, because such a fix would be immense.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:08:07 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

So let me get this straight - if the Japs take LA, then all the aircraft factories there go "poof" and the Allies are no longer able to produce those aircraft?

That, to me, is a game engine error that should be fixed... because think about it - if the base is taken before these factories come on-line (or even if they are "online) - the US wouldn't build the airplane factories elsewhere?


Yepp, that´s it. Once the allies recapture it they will revert to vehicle factories or something like that. I think the same is true for Japanese aircraft factories?


Sorry, let my rephrase my just-posted "yes they go poof." In actuality, I think what happens is they convert to vehicle factories for Japan. When the Allies take said factories, they just disappear because the Allies have no use for vehicle factories.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:09:21 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Why land full divisions on the dot bases with so much Japanese stuff elsewhere?


I,m actually just going to land 1/3rd of divisions at everything beside PB and LA. Only 1 BDE will land at Great Nicobar.


Ah, I see. From your screenshot I thought you were landing full divisions. I don't care about the risk of counter-invasion (gonna be impossible - see CONUS), I was mostly saying that I wouldn't land full divisions there because a lot of those islands have a port SPS of 0, meaning it would take you forever to load them back up later.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:12:12 PM   
AcePylut


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Status: offline 		Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:16:47 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.

This is a tad closer to Lego Land than to reality.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:26:38 PM   
JocMeister

 

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I´m sure Jeff isn´t too happy about this.

Also take not that the P40Ks did most of the heavy work arriving before the P47s. They still did very well sweeping into a big CAP. I think about 2:1 in their favor.




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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:30:03 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Here are the troops after the attack. Not too bad. 3rd Marines will be allowed to rest for a turn or two.




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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:33:46 PM   
JocMeister

 

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P47s are good for another round. P40s will be rotated out and replaced by Corsairs and a bunch of new P40s and some P39s.

Only 3 KIA and 8 MIA pilots from the last sweeps. Good!




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< Message edited by JocMeister -- 7/8/2016 5:36:59 PM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:38:32 PM   
JocMeister

 

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Still unopposed. Will he try something?




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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 5:42:31 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Airlosses Day 8
_____________________________________________________________________________

I´m sure Jeff isn´t too happy about this.

Also take not that the P40Ks did most of the heavy work arriving before the P47s. They still did very well sweeping into a big CAP. I think about 2:1 in their favor.




I wonder if operating close to their Air HQ(s) is/are helping your fighters with the air battle. Is it/are they in range?

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 6:49:15 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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Status: offline 		Air HQs don't affect the actual results of an aerial battle, to my knowledge.

< Message edited by Lokasenna -- 7/8/2016 6:51:55 PM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 6:59:20 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.


The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 7:11:32 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 8262
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From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Turn away.

Tense one.

Started a little bit of everything here and there. Perhaps I can rattle Jeff a bit. Also set some ground attacks on his troops at LA. Lets see if I can force him to set up LRCAP which I can nibble at.

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 7/8/2016 7:18:15 PM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 7:34:59 PM   
paullus99


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Status: offline 		Very nice - he doesn't have unlimited aircraft to play with....this is going to be very, very bad.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/8/2016 7:48:44 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.


The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.


Yes, but you are talking about an economic engine that was so flush with surpluses that it was able to expend a billion dollars worth of coin in just producing the atomic bomb. If the Russians were able to do it under the pressure they were under I am pretty sure the US could have figured out a way. Course, if you look at it from the Atomic bomb POV, then perhaps all those mustangs would have become redundant come 1946 or 47. I know that AE is playing in a fantasy world as it is but I don't think that even the loss of the whole West Coast would have prevented the US from eventually burying Japan.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Lokasenna)
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