Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: crsutton

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

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ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.

The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.

Yes, but you are talking about an economic engine that was so flush with surpluses that it was able to expend a billion dollars worth of coin in just producing the atomic bomb. If the Russians were able to do it under the pressure they were under I am pretty sure the US could have figured out a way. Course, if you look at it from the Atomic bomb POV, then perhaps all those mustangs would have become redundant come 1946 or 47. I know that AE is playing in a fantasy world as it is but I don't think that even the loss of the whole West Coast would have prevented the US from eventually burying Japan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Now, why the aircraft factories for the Allies exist in the first place when the Allies don't use the production system at all, well... I guess they're there for potential strategic points, or for elimination if Japan captures them? *shrug*

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.

The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.

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ORIGINAL: Anachro

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Now, why the aircraft factories for the Allies exist in the first place when the Allies don't use the production system at all, well... I guess they're there for potential strategic points, or for elimination if Japan captures them? *shrug*

Maybe they are there to incentivize the Japanese player to sometimes make the audacious decision to attack the west coast.

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ORIGINAL: JocMeister

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ORIGINAL: Anachro

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
Now, why the aircraft factories for the Allies exist in the first place when the Allies don't use the production system at all, well... I guess they're there for potential strategic points, or for elimination if Japan captures them? *shrug*

Maybe they are there to incentivize the Japanese player to sometimes make the audacious decision to attack the west coast.

Or the factories where actually there and someone decided that they should be there in the game too?

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Air HQs don't affect the actual results of an aerial battle, to my knowledge.

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ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I don't think so Drakanel. If anything, it would have strengthened the resolve of the Americans. I doubt that Japan would have gotten as good a deal as they got. Most likely, there would be no Japan now.

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

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ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.

The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.

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ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.

The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.

The game allows the Japanese to produce more than twice their historic aircraft output. How was that supposed to be accomplished without development of additional aircraft factory capacity? It would take all kinds of the tools and machine shops and such that Japan can manage to cobble together, but the U.S. economy just didn't have the ability. Don't try and offer any sort of quasi-historic rationale for why, just admit it is simply a function of game balance.

If history is so important, then how is the 2nd Armor Division in L.A. when it should be fighting in North Africa as part of Operation Torch?

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ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: poodlebrain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

Well that's kind of silly. In my opinion.

Hey - in two years, we are going to build P51's at LA. But darn, we can't make ANY P-51's because LA was taken and we have no other place in the entire USA to build a factory 2 years from now that can produce P'51's.

The P-51 began development in 1940, at least. If the factories were to be captured by an enemy, they would be trashed, yes? Rather than let the enemy get their aircraft factories back in working condition.

Now, yes - repairs could be effected or the factories rebuilt from nothing, but there is nothing in the game to allow for building a new factory. To do so would have been rather complex (so many parameters: do you allow new factories to be built at any time? only destroyed factories? is there a time limit [e.g. have to be destroyed in 1943 or earlier because rebuilding just takes so long]? etc.) and for special cases like this only, so the game as it is written is really the best abstraction of the real world as they could get.

On top of that, rebuilding infrastructure is a very intense process. Aircraft development facilities are not just a building and plans on some pieces of paper. There are all kinds of tools and machine shops and such, and if those are blown up, you've got to remake those first before you can get back to the business of designing/building/testing planes.

The game allows the Japanese to produce more than twice their historic aircraft output. How was that supposed to be accomplished without development of additional aircraft factory capacity? It would take all kinds of the tools and machine shops and such that Japan can manage to cobble together, but the U.S. economy just didn't have the ability. Don't try and offer any sort of quasi-historic rationale for why, just admit it is simply a function of game balance.

If history is so important, then how is the 2nd Armor Division in L.A. when it should be fighting in North Africa as part of Operation Torch?

Sure, but expanding the factories is different from making them again from scratch. I don't know because I'm not a subject matter expert on this, but I'm sure that in some cases some of the things in the factories that are in these cities were irreplaceable in the medium term. Things like specific tools, specific machines, and so forth.

Think of it like making molds and casts of something. If somebody comes in and smashes all your molds (in this case, factories), you have to make more molds before you can make new casts (planes). On the other hand, if you put more people and raw materials to work on the molds and . It's not a perfect analogy, and obviously if you wanted to as Japan you could increase aircraft production five-fold (disregarding for the moment the supply and HI consequences) in terms of the size of the factory with no problems from the game engine. But they convert to vehicle factories for Japan for a reason (Japan wouldn't be able to make P-51s in the US, or Wirraways in Australia for that matter) or go poof when the Allies take them because that's just what makes the most sense in terms of the game's design. This isn't an RTS/econ/empire building game. It's a military strategy game, and an extremely abstract one at that. The factories converting to vehicle or going poof is an abstraction of a very general idea of what the real-life consequences would be.


Also, was the 2nd Armoured part of the emergency reinforcements? I didn't look. If it is, then obviously it was pulled back from the in-game Torch to defend CONUS.

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Ground combat at Los Angeles (225,76)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 89208 troops, 1803 guns, 4216 vehicles, Assault Value = 3569

Defending force 48260 troops, 683 guns, 735 vehicles, Assault Value = 1143

Allied adjusted assault: 1542

Japanese adjusted defense: 2581

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
3105 casualties reported
Squads: 16 destroyed, 260 disabled
Non Combat: 6 destroyed, 37 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 14 disabled
Guns lost 88 (3 destroyed, 85 disabled)
Vehicles lost 25 (4 destroyed, 21 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
1516 casualties reported
Squads: 70 destroyed, 100 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 32 disabled
Engineers: 11 destroyed, 17 disabled
Guns lost 101 (8 destroyed, 93 disabled)
Vehicles lost 120 (14 destroyed, 106 disabled)

Assaulting units:
2nd Armored Division
4th Motorized Division
41st Infantry Division
6th Armoured Division
40th Infantry Division
7th Motorized Division
8th Motorized Division
641st Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
5th Armoured Division
3rd Marine Division
13th Armoured Division
LA Harbor Defense
Provisional Tank Brigade
603rd Coast AA Regiment
21st US Naval Construction Battalion
511th Coast AA Regiment
Los Angeles USN Base Force
54th Coastal Artillery Regiment
352nd Construction Regiment
204th Coast AA Regiment
24th MAG
37th US Naval Construction Battalion
183rd Field Artillery Battalion
188th Field Artillery Battalion
503rd Coast AA Regiment
165th Field Artillery Battalion
214th Coast AA Regiment
I US Corps
19th Base Maint Engineer Battalion
II USA Corps

Defending units:
9th Division
12th Division
1st Division
2nd Tank Division
7th Air Defense AA Regiment
8th RF Gun Battalion
2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
12th Ind.AA Gun Co
2nd RF Gun Battalion
22nd Fld AA Gun Co
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
2nd Air Defense AA Regiment
3rd Air Defense AA Regiment
15th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
5th RF Gun Battalion
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
9th RF Gun Battalion
11th RF Gun Battalion

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Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Blair at 46,58, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Yamakaze, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
DD Okikaze

Allied Ships
BB Valiant
BB Revenge
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Ramillies
BB Resolution
DD Vendetta
DD Nepal
DD Nestor
DD Napier
DD Nizam
DD Witte de With
DD Van Nes

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Day Time Surface Combat, near Little Andaman at 45,60, Range 7,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Michishio, Shell hits 35, and is sunk
DD Asanagi, Shell hits 14, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Hobart
CL Dauntless
CL Ceres
CL Mauritius, Shell hits 2
CL Capetown
DD Stuart
DD Arunta
DD Warramunga
DD Tjerk Hiddes
DD Van Galen
DD Arrow
DD Encounter
DD Jupiter

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Day Time Surface Combat, near Port Blair at 46,58, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
DD Okikaze, Shell hits 7, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Valiant
BB Revenge
BB Royal Sovereign
BB Ramillies
BB Resolution, Shell hits 2
DD Vendetta
DD Nepal
DD Nestor
DD Napier
DD Nizam
DD Witte de With
DD Van Nes

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Only 6th Armored Div is below 50 experience in LA. That is a good sign.

I like your two SC TF composition - 6 to 8 DDs and then the larger warships. I try to do that as much as possible.

Feb '43 - next generation B-25s and B-24s coming.

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TF 5 encounters mine field at Santa Barbara (223,76)

Japanese Ships
CL Tama, Mine hits 1
CL Kiso, Mine hits 1

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TF 177 encounters mine field at Santa Barbara (223,76)

Japanese Ships
DD Makigumo, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

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Morning Air attack on Los Angeles , at 225,76

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 47 NM, estimated altitude 30,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 34
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 2
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 1

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x A6M5 Zero sweeping at 29000 feet

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Morning Air attack on Los Angeles , at 225,76

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 158 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 62 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 13
G3M2 Nell x 29
G4M1 Betty x 31
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 27
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 1

No Japanese losses

Manpower hits 5
Fires 344

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Morning Air attack on Santa Ana , at 226,76

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 11 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 15

Allied aircraft
P-38F Lightning x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38F Lightning: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x P-38F Lightning sweeping at 30000 feet

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Morning Air attack on Santa Ana , at 226,76

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 34 NM, estimated altitude 33,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 8

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 20

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 3 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x P-38G Lightning sweeping at 30000 feet

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Morning Air attack on Santa Ana , at 226,76

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
P-39D Airacobra x 22

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
22 x P-39D Airacobra sweeping at 15000 feet

quote:

Ground combat at San Diego (227,78)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1128 troops, 160 guns, 116 vehicles, Assault Value = 2122

Defending force 54994 troops, 764 guns, 640 vehicles, Assault Value = 1347

Japanese ground losses:
Guns lost 47 (43 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 52 (47 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Units destroyed 3

Allied ground losses:
17 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Vehicles lost 3 (2 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Assaulting units:
14th Division
5th Guards Division
1st Tank Division
48th/B Division
2nd Division
21st Division
48th/A Division
48th/C Division
1st Medium Field Artillery Regiment
1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Bn /1
31st Air Defense AA Battalion
15th Medium FA Rgt /1
6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
15th Ind.Art.Mortar Bn /1
3rd Hvy.Artillery Regiment
8th Area Army
2nd Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
1st Art.Mortar Regiment
2nd Hvy.Artillery Rgt /1
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Bn /1

Defending units:
25th Infantry Division
22nd Marine Regiment
192nd Tank Battalion
37th Infantry Division
43rd Infantry Division
31st Infantry Rgt /1
30th Field Artillery Regiment
11th Naval District
Camp Pendleton
14th Marine Defense Battalion
Camp Pendleton Base Force
San Diego USN Base Force
SD Harbor Defense
ComAirFMFPac

quote:

Day Time Surface Combat, near Little Andaman at 44,59, Range 11,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Takao, Shell hits 4
CA Ashigara, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Suzuya, Shell hits 6, on fire
CL Natori, Shell hits 6, on fire
CL Kinu, Shell hits 2
DD Arashi, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Oshio, Shell hits 15, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk

Allied Ships
BB Washington, Shell hits 4
BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 3
BC Repulse, Shell hits 4
DD Meredith
DD Gwin, Shell hits 1
DD Electra, Shell hits 6, and is sunk
DD Express, Shell hits 1
DD Foxhound, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Inconstant, Shell hits 1
DD Isis, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

quote:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Port Blair at 46,58

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 71 NM, estimated altitude 28,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 21
G3M2 Nell x 6

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 20
F4F-4 Wildcat x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
G3M2 Nell: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed

quote:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Port Blair at 46,58

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 43 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 30
Ki-48-IIb Lily x 17

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 15
F4F-4 Wildcat x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 2 destroyed
Ki-48-IIb Lily: 3 destroyed, 6 damaged
Ki-48-IIb Lily: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CL Capetown
CL Hobart