RE: Combat Values

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RE: Combat Values - 3/1/2016 4:21:45 PM

Krys

Posts: 55
Joined: 2/25/2016
From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

I'm thinking about adding percentage tool, which would help the human (when enabled) to determine if it's a good idea to fire at a target or not. Example, should the human player fire with his squad and a leader at AI infantry stack at 50% chance to hit or should the human stack fire at the AI AT gun with 35% chance to hit.

I think that would be a great idea, Peter. It would be most helpful when considering when to fire and would also quiet (I think) a lot of the complaints that are popping up on the forum.

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Post #: 121

RE: Combat Values - 3/1/2016 6:04:52 PM

Charly G

Posts: 157
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

I'm thinking about adding percentage tool, which would help the human (when enabled) to determine if it's a good idea to fire at a target or not. Example, should the human player fire with his squad and a leader at AI infantry stack at 50% chance to hit or should the human stack fire at the AI AT gun with 35% chance to hit.

Very good idea, but please make it optional or this tool will not be in Very Hard.

Still thank you Peter, for your game.

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 122

RE: Combat Values - 3/1/2016 7:57:52 PM

proflui

Posts: 83
Joined: 12/12/2014
From: Hong Kong, now in Toronto
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

I'm thinking about adding percentage tool, which would help the human (when enabled) to determine if it's a good idea to fire at a target or not. Example, should the human player fire with his squad and a leader at AI infantry stack at 50% chance to hit or should the human stack fire at the AI AT gun with 35% chance to hit.

This is a very good idea! It definitely helps for players who have very little ASL knowledge like me. If movement factor of units and movement cost of different terrain are shown in the game also it will be close to perfect to me. Thanks!

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 123

RE: Combat Values - 3/2/2016 2:42:05 AM

Monkie

Posts: 262
Joined: 6/12/2005
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Would be nice to have as an option for those that need it.

(in reply to proflui)

Post #: 124

RE: Combat Values - 3/2/2016 4:08:43 AM

CaptBeefheart

Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
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I came to this forum since it seems every couple of years I try to fire up a version of Steel Panthers I get some funky psychedelic graphics or some other issue. Anyway, I'm looking forward to a modern-day equivalent that works on modern operating systems.

One thing about SP that I've taken for granted the last 20 years is selecting a unit shows you the exact hexes you can move to in that turn. Another thing is the percentage chance to hit a target. Now, with enough experience in SP you don't really need to see the hit chance since you'll have a good idea anyway. The point is, people new to this game won't have any idea except by playing it a bunch of times. Some players will like that, others won't. Why not make hit chance and move range optional at all difficulty levels?

The other question is gun penetration vs. armor. After playing decades of SP I think I have a good idea of the nuances of most WWII tank match-ups, but what about players new to tactical WWII combat?

Cheers,
CC

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Post #: 125

RE: Combat Values - 3/2/2016 6:36:48 AM

mainsworthy

Posts: 428
Joined: 9/3/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: telengard

I would be OK with the % (as long as it could be disabled), but that's more than what I would personally want. I'd would just like to know the basics to make some decisions, range, firepower, etc. The VASL mod, assuming it maps to the in game values, is so far providing that to some degree.

this ASL coversion with The VASL mod may help, with assessing firepower, also remember when you see the range of a weapon in-game fires at full fire-power,but you fire at half-fire-power at twice the range like ASL

Fire Power

8 - A
7 - B
6 - C
5 - D
4 - E
3 - F
2 - G
1 - H

Morale

8 - ***
7 - **
6 - *
5 -

< Message edited by mainsworthy -- 3/2/2016 6:41:31 AM >

(in reply to telengard)

Post #: 126

RE: Combat Values - 3/2/2016 8:27:52 AM

JiminyJickers

Posts: 290
Joined: 10/4/2011
From: New Zealand
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

I came to this forum since it seems every couple of years I try to fire up a version of Steel Panthers I get some funky psychedelic graphics or some other issue. Anyway, I'm looking forward to a modern-day equivalent that works on modern operating systems.

One thing about SP that I've taken for granted the last 20 years is selecting a unit shows you the exact hexes you can move to in that turn. Another thing is the percentage chance to hit a target. Now, with enough experience in SP you don't really need to see the hit chance since you'll have a good idea anyway. The point is, people new to this game won't have any idea except by playing it a bunch of times. Some players will like that, others won't. Why not make hit chance and move range optional at all difficulty levels?

The other question is gun penetration vs. armor. After playing decades of SP I think I have a good idea of the nuances of most WWII tank match-ups, but what about players new to tactical WWII combat?

Cheers,
CC

Completely agree with you. I have been eyeing this game but I am holding off for now. I will definitely need the info as you describe to help me play, and to possibly push me over the edge to buy it.

Personally I would love a more modern warfare version, a bit tired of WWII at the moment. But if this is improved, I'm in.

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)

Post #: 127

RE: Combat Values - 3/2/2016 7:35:34 PM

blazej

Posts: 76
Joined: 4/17/2007
Status: offline

I was one of the first people to ask on this forum about hit probabilities and such. But now I played my first scenario, and I admit that I find it surprisingly refreshing to focus on tactics instead of number crunching. I used to play ATS quite a bit, and I remember agonizing over tables to plan out my movements and fire to a single point. It was tedious and, let's be honest, unrealistic. In real battle units didn't know exactly how much damage they could make or how far they could reach. So I find the approach in TotH quite well reflecting the Fog of War of a battlefield.

This could be a bit different for AFV firefights because their crews probably knew quite well if they could (or not) take out an enemy tank from a particular distance and angle. I don't want to be sitting there firing at that Tiger if I have 0 chance of causing damage :)

Just my two cents.

Best,
Michał

(in reply to JiminyJickers)

Post #: 128

RE: Combat Values - 3/4/2016 4:34:03 PM

Majick

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I understand the reasons for the debate about showing stats, and movement capabilities, although I've not played it enough to feel strongly either way yet.

But I'm not sure the various speculations about copyright infringements are helpful. Many of us, it seems, have been waiting decades for a game like this, have snapped it up, and are hoping more expansions etc will follow.

It would be a shame if the developers hard work came to nothing and the game died on the vine because of insinuations that certain things we might like to see are not included in the game for this particular reason.

Just my 2 cents worth, don't want to offend anyone, but just thinking of the future of the game

(in reply to blazej)

Post #: 129

RE: Combat Values - 3/4/2016 4:40:28 PM

chrisleko

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Joined: 4/23/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Majick

I understand the reasons for the debate about showing stats, and movement capabilities, although I've not played it enough to feel strongly either way yet.

But I'm not sure the various speculations about copyright infringements are helpful. Many of us, it seems, have been waiting decades for a game like this, have snapped it up, and are hoping more expansions etc will follow.

It would be a shame if the developers hard work came to nothing and the game died on the vine because of insinuations that certain things we might like to see are not included in the game for this particular reason.

Just my 2 cents worth, don't want to offend anyone, but just thinking of the future of the game

Couldn't agree. I've been critical about the lack of info about unit capabilities (though I think the VASL mod really fixes most of my complaints, as I think the info on it matches up mostly with the game (if not exactly)), but it's because I enjoy playing and want to see the game get better for people (like me) who actually have no experience with ASL (so I don't know how the units work).

(in reply to Majick)

Post #: 130

RE: Combat Values - 3/4/2016 5:27:35 PM

Franciscus

Posts: 809
Joined: 12/22/2010
From: Portugal
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quote:

Couldn't agree. I've been critical about the lack of info about unit capabilities (though I think the VASL mod really fixes most of my complaints, as I think the info on it matches up mostly with the game (if not exactly)), but it's because I enjoy playing and want to see the game get better for people (like me) who actually have no experience with ASL (so I don't know how the units work).

Exactly.

This issue has been raised several times but no clear answer by the dev has appeared.
I don't care a bit about hypothetical copyrights and I have never played SL/ASL (I have never even seen them and don't intend to), I am just a wargamer and a potential buyer that finds extremely odd that a PC wargame does not readily provide such basic info as units' movement range and combat power/values. I can live with clunky interfaces, but as an example, Schwerpunkt has a difficult UI, but movement range is clearly shown on map and unit's counters have all the usual and expected combat values clearly depicted. And of course, in TotH these parameters exist, they simply are not clearly shown to the player.
So, my simple question to Peter (and the answer or lack of will decide this player's decision to buy TotH or not):
- will you add a movement range filter on map and depict clearly (numerical) combat power of units in TotH in a future patch (maybe as an option) or not ?

Regards

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 3/4/2016 5:31:00 PM >

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Post #: 131

RE: Combat Values - 3/4/2016 5:59:07 PM

Paullus

Posts: 1058
Joined: 6/9/2015
From: Sweden
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I know Peter is looking at this and is working on something that I think would please you.

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For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

(in reply to Franciscus)

Post #: 132

RE: Combat Values - 3/4/2016 11:40:54 PM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Majick
It would be a shame if the developers hard work came to nothing and the game died on the vine because of insinuations that certain things we might like to see are not included in the game for this particular reason.

I too have waited decades for a "game like this", but the lack of any reasonable explanation followed by a shut up and play you don't need any info attitude is what prompts me to keep my wallet closed on this title.

Lacking any real information from devs (hmm seems to be a trend with this title), I have to assume the issue is he didn't really create a new or unique game system, he simply ported an already existing game system created by SL and ASL designers into computer format. I have no idea whether or not intellectual property rights apply to a game system, but my guess is a case could be made for it if someone wants to make it.

From what I've read on these forums it is probably an 80%-90% port of SL/ASL which is fine with me. I would have bought it day one except for the obvious attempt to hide the actual data by simply omitting it from the game. It's the attempt to hide data that leaves me wondering what is going on here that would lead someone to go to these lengths to hide data.

Pride of authorship may be in play (he doesn't want to be accused of plagiarism) or actual legal copyright issues may be in play. Whatever is going on it feels hinky to me and thus I will not support the game. I may be proved to be completely off base at some point (in fact I hope I am because I want this game), but the total lack of any attempt to address these concerns leaves me thinking I'm probably right.

While I want a game like this to be made, I want it done in a legal and principled manner. I doubt enough people are as concerned as me in principled behavior, so I doubt there are enough of us to help or hurt the game by not buying it. Norbsoft games have far worse issues when it comes to principled behavior and that company seems to be doing fine even with people like me never touching their titles.

Jim

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Post #: 133

RE: Combat Values - 3/5/2016 12:37:50 AM

surfcandy

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
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Between more view-able info on unit counters and info on maps in future patches along with the modding, scenarios,charts and campaigns this game seems to be heading towards a classic!There are so many theaters of operations available for future expansions.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 134

RE: Combat Values - 3/8/2016 7:13:03 AM

RFalvo69

Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blackcloud6

quote:

This is what Mr. Medrow wrote in The General vol. 23, no 2 when he introduced the AFV counters of ASL. Why don 't have some of the hard core ASL player the same attitude towards this game? It is very early and nothing is in stone. It took 30 years to come up with this and give it another 2-3 years and it will be even better than it is already.
It also should be very easy to come up with a combat value and movement sheet, just copy ASL.

Yep... good post.

BTW, the data sheet that everyone wants might actually make the game more expensive. Have you seen how big Chapter H is from ASL? And that only covers vehicles and Ordnance Weapons.

John Tiller's Campaign Series already has both the data and a brief description of all units directly implemented in the game - and the price didn't die because of it. That's was true 20 years ago, too, when the game first came out.

(in reply to blackcloud6)

Post #: 135

RE: Combat Values - 3/8/2016 2:03:10 PM

z1812

Posts: 1796
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Great game. Many wargamer's have been waiting quite a long time for someone to make an ASL type game and here it is.

This is an interesting thread with many good ideas. I do hope any extra playing aids that are built into the game will be optional.

It is also unfortunate that a few ASL purists have decided to view their glass as being half empty. The game could benefit by some changes and additions and the developer seems to be open to ideas.

In terms of copyright issues; everything is based upon something else. It seems logical that the developer and Matrix are sure of their position regarding copyright.

If people don't like the game that's fine. They don't have to buy it. We can all benefit from the input of ASL players. However for the zealot ASLers, there is a great ASL site at Gamesquad. Why don't you go there and enjoy your game and we will enjoy ours.

Again Peter thanks for a very good game and thanks to Matrix for publishing it. I have waited a long time for a game like this to be made.

(in reply to Krys)

Post #: 136

RE: Combat Values - 3/8/2016 7:08:23 PM

Gerry4321

Posts: 874
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As a former ASL player I am enjoying the game a lot. I am fine with ASL players requesting features be added just like everyone else does. The game is a fine one and the sky is the limit in terms of the engine and new official content.

(in reply to z1812)

Post #: 137

RE: Combat Values - 6/30/2016 5:40:50 PM

sIg3b

Posts: 220
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
Sorry, but "learning with trial" doesn't hold water.

+50.

A Wargame/Strategy game is a planning game.

I want all the numbers and stats, and as far possible I want them:
1. in the Reference Manual,
2. in an ingame-reference, and
3. on the counters.

If I wanted to find out things by trial-and-error, I would play adventures.

(in reply to RFalvo69)

Post #: 138

RE: Combat Values - 6/30/2016 5:50:54 PM

rico21

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Attachment (1)

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Post #: 139

RE: Combat Values - 6/30/2016 7:07:59 PM

fuselex

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Joined: 8/2/2014
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I also have asked for stats , have posted a few threads in the hope I can get numbers to work with .
have had some really informative replies to my questions .
But in the end I have the biggest tank that fires 3 times at the opposing sides smallest AFV. and can`t kill it :)
From the time I have spent on the forums the one thing that stands out is ask a question and someone will go out
of there way to help ,
I`m sort of changing my view a little - played a few scenarios - and do I really need to diagnose the statistics?
Helpful . yes , but I don`t think that was the idea behind the game .
pretty sure it was for fun.

< Message edited by fuselex -- 6/30/2016 7:20:23 PM >

(in reply to rico21)

Post #: 140

RE: Combat Values - 7/1/2016 4:55:06 PM

sIg3b

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Ok, if your idea of fun is just fooling around, I can understand that, but for me this is the Most Gladful I Avoided Game of the Year Award.

Vague rules, no hard data >>> parody of a Wargame.

(in reply to fuselex)

Post #: 141

RE: Combat Values - 12/7/2016 7:14:40 PM

chucknra

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Any updates?

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Post #: 142

RE: Combat Values - 12/9/2016 1:32:08 AM

Rosseau

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I'd like to see an LOS tool first, depending on how hard each tool is to program.

This is one of the few (if any) wargames that does not hold my hand with a percentage-type tool, so I actually prefer it that way. Would need to be an option of course so everyone is pleased.

(in reply to chucknra)

Post #: 143

RE: Combat Values - 12/10/2016 2:35:53 PM

Hailstone

Posts: 666
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From: Phoenix, AZ
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TotH is my favorite game for a lot of reasons especially for the lack of stats. I feel more like a commander in the field having to make tough choices with FOG being a significant factor as to do I or don't I. There's nothing like a game of TotH after a few beers with my tunes playing in the background and not having to crunch numbers or constantly looking stuff up. That just sobers me up too quick and gets the rulebook sticky. Very thankful for Peter's efforts in developing this game and for his continued interest in making it better. SeeYa!

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 144

RE: Combat Values - 12/10/2016 3:36:26 PM

Peter Fisla

Posts: 2503
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From: Canada
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I have started work on the adding percentage tool. Example: when you select say for example your side Tiger tank, all the enemy unit hexes in LOS will show information of what are the odds of scoring a hit on a target hex. It will show the AP as well as HE information, including special rounds like APCR, APDS and HEAT assuming the firing unit has the capability of firing special ammunition. The percentage tool will be the main focus of UPDATE3, the feature will only be available when scenario difficulty is set to EASY or NORMAL.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 12/10/2016 3:37:52 PM >

(in reply to Hailstone)

Post #: 145

RE: Combat Values - 12/10/2016 11:14:43 PM

UP844

Posts: 1662
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Example: when you select say for example your side Tiger tank, all the enemy unit hexes in LOS will show information of what are the odds of scoring a hit on a target hex.

Hitting a Tiger has never been a very difficult task; killing it is just another matter, however

Like Hailstone, I also think calculating the "perfect shot" takes out much of the fun, but when AFVs/Ordnance are involved I think the troops had a rough idea of the capabilities of their weapons. By way of example, some time ago I killed a Panther with front hit from a Russian 76mm gun, but I had no way of knowing if it was a lucky (critical) hit or if that gun could reasonably kill a Panther (it cannot, as I discovered when I replayed the same scenario with version 1.0.51 and managed to place five hits on the Panther, all of them bouncing away

)

A listing of the piercing capability of the various guns and of the armor values of AFVs would also be a nice addition.

< Message edited by UP844 -- 12/10/2016 11:15:14 PM >

(in reply to Peter Fisla)

Post #: 146

RE: Combat Values - 12/12/2016 2:11:01 AM

marcdhanna

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I love the potential of this game and want to do more AAR vs the AI. Matrix forum platform makes it annoying to do graphical AAR, unfortunately. I'll do them on a review site I'm working with.

Once this game has the following; it will be up to snuff with other games out there and please listen developers, whether you like it or not, this game needs this stuff most urgently to compete with other computer games out there:

the percentage tool (yes yes!)
zoom screen (it's ancient to NOT have this)
re-stacking position chosen by the player
friendlier UI for fire and move selection
full view of movement range when a unit is clicked on (don't make us refer back to ASL rules for ANY reason)
a manual which clearly differentiates the game from ASL so that you don't have to know ASL to play the game.

All of this before other nationalities, before multilevel buildings, before bypass movement, etc.

What I do notice is that too much critiquing of the game can be met with what seems like stony silence if you do speak up, but I don't care to be acknowledged, as long as remarks are taken into consideration.

Let me also say that true ASL purists, as they have been called, won't touch this game because they think it's a ripoff of ASL. They don't want it to be successful. See the BGG forum. I disagree with this attitude, simply because porting a game like this to a computerized system is something the ASL publisher could have done long ago, but didn't. There is no design patent on ASL as far as I know, but the more the game distances itself from being an ASL knock-off the better -- in my opinion.

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Post #: 147

RE: Combat Values - 12/12/2016 4:30:45 AM

Paullus

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Thanks marcdhanna. We listen to all critics and do tries to make good development changes. Peter has concentrated on Bugs for the first two Updates but will do more feature additions in Update 3.

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For my part, I shall do my duty as a general; I shall see to it that you are given the chance of a successful action. /Lucius Aemilius Paullus

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Post #: 148

RE: Combat Values - 12/13/2016 3:55:32 AM

rico21

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"The percentage tool will be the main focus of UPDATE3, the feature will only be available when scenario difficulty is set to EASY or NORMAL."

I hope this option will be optional because I play most of the time at normal level and I do not want to see percentages pollute my line of shooting!

Thanks Peter

(in reply to Paullus)

Post #: 149

RE: Combat Values - 12/13/2016 11:12:43 AM

Peter Fisla

Posts: 2503
Joined: 10/5/2001
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

"The percentage tool will be the main focus of UPDATE3, the feature will only be available when scenario difficulty is set to EASY or NORMAL."

I hope this option will be optional because I play most of the time at normal level and I do not want to see percentages pollute my line of shooting!

Thanks Peter

Yes, it will a button on the game toolbar

(in reply to rico21)

Post #: 150