Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited Page: <<   < prev  3 4 5 6 [7]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 1:36:14 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ezz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Gee I thought it would take us less than 6 pages to figure out who caused WWI.


I'm waiting until it gets to 20 pages.
Then I'm going to kick it all off again with "Who was responsible for the start of the American Civil War?"

When that cools down, can always go for the ever reliable "Spitfire or Me109?"


Did you mean Bf 109, or am I being premature?



_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to ezzler)
Post #: 181
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 1:49:01 PM   
Hotschi


Posts: 548
Joined: 1/18/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline 		And if all else fails, there's still the sinking of the Bismarck...

_____________________________

"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"

- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 182
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 2:49:37 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Gee I thought it would take us less than 6 pages to figure out who caused WWI.
warspite1

That was a little optimistic. But I think by page 9 it will be conclusively proven. We will then turn our attention to solving the riddle of who shot JFK. The trick will be to identify the culprit and describe the events without using the words Grassy Knoll....

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/9/2017 3:01:11 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Yogi the Great)
Post #: 183
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 3:47:32 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Colonel Mustard, in the library, with the candlestick. He did it.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 184
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 4:22:02 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Colonel Mustard, in the library, with the candlestick. He did it.
warspite1

What? Started WWI or murdered JFK?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 185
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 4:51:17 PM   
Hotschi


Posts: 548
Joined: 1/18/2010
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Both. And his ancestors started the 100 Years War.

_____________________________

"A big butcher's bill is not necessarily evidence of good tactics"

- Wavell's reply to Churchill, after the latter complained about faint-heartedness, as he discovered that British casualties in the evacuation from Somaliland had been only 260 men.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 186
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 5:24:43 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

Both. And his ancestors started the 100 Years War.


His ancestors took Jenkin's ear too.

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 9/9/2017 5:25:40 PM >

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to Hotschi)
Post #: 187
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 5:50:11 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

Both. And his ancestors started the 100 Years War.


His ancestors took Jenkin's ear too.
warspite1

Pardon?


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 188
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 5:51:11 PM   
RichG

 

Posts: 104
Joined: 11/28/2015
Status: offline 		I always suspected the Colonel was a Russian spy in disguise. Damn the cheeky blighter.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 189
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 6:47:56 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

Both. And his ancestors started the 100 Years War.


His ancestors took Jenkin's ear too.
warspite1

Pardon?



The War of Jenkin's Ear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Jenkins%27_Ear

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 190
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 6:56:06 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

Both. And his ancestors started the 100 Years War.


His ancestors took Jenkin's ear too.
warspite1

Pardon?



The War of Jenkin's Ear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Jenkins%27_Ear
warspite1

I know, it was the old joke about enquiring if someone has lost their hearing (or in this case their ear) - followed by "Pardon?".....

Sorry





_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 191
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 7:00:32 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotschi

Both. And his ancestors started the 100 Years War.


His ancestors took Jenkin's ear too.
warspite1

Pardon?



The War of Jenkin's Ear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Jenkins%27_Ear
warspite1

I know, it was the old joke about enquiring if someone has lost their hearing (or in this case their ear) - followed by "Pardon?".....

Sorry






Ahhhh, I missed it...

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 192
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 7:29:41 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Gee I thought it would take us less than 6 pages to figure out who caused WWI.
warspite1

That was a little optimistic. But I think by page 9 it will be conclusively proven. We will then turn our attention to solving the riddle of who shot JFK. The trick will be to identify the culprit and describe the events without using the words Grassy Knoll....


That's easy.

Accidental Assassin: JFK theory alleges Secret Service agent fumbled gun

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/accidental-assassin-jfk-theory-alleges-secret-service-agent-fumbled-gun-f2D11634276


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 193
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 7:32:42 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Gee I thought it would take us less than 6 pages to figure out who caused WWI.
warspite1

That was a little optimistic. But I think by page 9 it will be conclusively proven. We will then turn our attention to solving the riddle of who shot JFK. The trick will be to identify the culprit and describe the events without using the words Grassy Knoll....


That's easy.

Accidental Assassin: JFK theory alleges Secret Service agent fumbled gun

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/accidental-assassin-jfk-theory-alleges-secret-service-agent-fumbled-gun-f2D11634276

warspite1

Was this hapless Secret Service Agent Goofy standing on a Grassy Knoll.....Doh!!!





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 194
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 7:38:22 PM   
ezzler

 

Posts: 863
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
[/quote]

Did you mean Bf 109, or am I being premature?


[/quote]

Here we go ... Obviously it was the Spitfire. The 109 couldn't even decide if it was an Me or a bf.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 195
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 7:55:42 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		Pilot 1 "Two fokkers were shooting at me at the same time".
Pilot 2 "Yeah, they can turn tight those Fockes".
Pilot 1 "Maybe, except those particular fokkers were Messerschmitts".

(in reply to ezzler)
Post #: 196
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 8:33:42 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogi the Great

Gee I thought it would take us less than 6 pages to figure out who caused WWI.
warspite1

That was a little optimistic. But I think by page 9 it will be conclusively proven. We will then turn our attention to solving the riddle of who shot JFK. The trick will be to identify the culprit and describe the events without using the words Grassy Knoll....


That's easy.

Accidental Assassin: JFK theory alleges Secret Service agent fumbled gun

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/accidental-assassin-jfk-theory-alleges-secret-service-agent-fumbled-gun-f2D11634276

warspite1

Was this hapless Secret Service Agent Goofy standing on a Grassy Knoll.....Doh!!!






No, he was in the follow-up vehicle.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 197
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 9:09:18 PM   
Jagdtiger14


Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline 		To the parts you say Serbia accepted: Partially accepting, finessing, disingenuously answering, or politely rejecting is not complying, it is, rejection.

Did the Serbian government have a constitution guaranteeing free speech in 1914? I don't know. Its possible, but I highly doubt it. Lets say they did. Did Serbia have advance knowledge of the content of the letters/communication between Germany and A-H?

Assuming Serbia was completely innocent concerning the assassination (they were not, but lets say they were)...and considering the emotion/anger of the moment (literally hours), Serbia could have fully complied at least temporarily until cooler heads prevailed (one year maybe).

Your question concerning how I would look at it if it was the US is apples and oranges. The US is a large country in population as well as size, and is the lone hyper-power on the planet. Compare that to Serbia 1914 (or 2017). It just doesn't compare. Lets say the Russian VP was assassinated by a radical US citizen and Russia made these demands. I'm sure US diplomats and law enforcement would assist the Russian government to its satisfaction. If not satisfied, Russia would have to consider MAD, and probably would come off much worse in a conventional or non-conventional war. Serbia was facing extinction...their only possible savior was Russian involvement...which still didn't save them. They were completely conquered. They lost 25% of their population, plus over 130,000 wounded considering a population of 4.5M.

If Serbia fully complies, does not mobilize, and is invaded by A-H anyway, now A-H does not have casus belli, and the world rightfully would turn against it. Serbia's best move would have been to accept, not mobilze, if A-H invades immediately surrender unconditionally and appeal its situation to the international community (some of which might fall on deaf ears concerning the Balkan wars just prior). Serbia could not hope to damage A-H in the long term, but perhaps its population could be saved.

With 20/20 hindsight (which I don't think is needed) do you think Serbia made the right moves for its people?



< Message edited by Jagdtiger14 -- 9/9/2017 9:13:50 PM >

_____________________________

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 198
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 9:32:30 PM   
Jagdtiger14


Posts: 1686
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: Miami Beach
Status: offline
quote:

Interesting statement by one of the conspirators (Vaso Cubrilovic) much later in life referring to Franz Ferdinand's assassination: "We destroyed a beautiful world that was lost forever due to the war that followed." Sugar, Peter F (1999) East European Nationalism, Politics and religion. Now who was he referring to concerning "We"? The conspirators? Serbia? I don't know, but it is interesting as it seems he is taking responsibility for "who caused WW1".





You have the context. He is "referring to the assassination...", not alliances, ultimatums, blank checks, etc... He is blaming himself and his fellow conspirators. Here is a credible, first hand knowledge actual participant in these events who is taking responsibility not in a braggadocious way, but remorseful. The subject question of this thread is "who caused WWI - revisited". This man is far more credible to answer this question than any poster on this thread, or any historian.

I think this concludes the festivities.


_____________________________

Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 199
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/9/2017 10:10:49 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		I too will conclude festivities. Not much to say without repeating what has gone before, but suffice to say nothing stated here has made me move my thought process. Specifically:

- I believe hiding behind alliances (which in many cases didn't exist) is a cop-out. The leaders, the politicians, the military all had choices to make. They did not have to follow any one specific path.

- I don't set any store by references to modern day international law as it exists today in terms of trying to conclude whether Serbia were in the wrong.

- The Ultimatum was designed to be rejected. The idea that the terms and conditions were not designed to start a war is fanciful - and the idea that Serbia actually were the aggressor in the shooting war is nothing short of extraordinary.

Where I have altered my mind - certainly in the last couple of years - is that while I still believe that Germany and Austria-Hungary take the lion's share of the blame for the reasons I have outlined in previous posts, I am really not sure about the extent to which Germany had a cunning plan to start a wider war at that time (on the basis that they would soon be at a disadvantage compared to Russia/France).

There are three likely possibilities:

a) There was no plan but the Kaiser was simply criminally negligent in allowing A-H to dictate events once it was clear they weren't going to take immediate action (which would at least have been understandable).

b) There was a plan and the Kaiser was at the heart of it all along

c) There was a plan, the Kaiser was at the heart of it but he then got cold feet (or a sudden realisation that following through on this would lead to disaster) but by this time von Moltke and the General Staff effectively 'took over the show'.

Serbia, Russia, France and Britain also bear some limited measure of responsibility, but there was something at the heart of the crisis - something that made this 'Balkan crisis' lead to World War when previous crises in the Balkans and elsewhere never did. The actions taken by the Central Powers in the period between the assassination and the war starting were 'that something'.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/9/2017 10:20:53 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 200
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/10/2017 1:08:03 AM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I too will conclude festivities. Not much to say without repeating what has gone before, but suffice to say nothing stated here has made me move my thought process. Specifically:

- I believe hiding behind alliances (which in many cases didn't exist) is a cop-out. The leaders, the politicians, the military all had choices to make. They did not have to follow any one specific path.

- I don't set any store by references to modern day international law as it exists today in terms of trying to conclude whether Serbia were in the wrong....


The Sixth Commandment, "Thou shalt do no murder," isn't modern and does include state-sponsored assassination.

fini


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 201
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/10/2017 7:10:59 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Where I have altered my mind - certainly in the last couple of years - is that while I still believe that Germany and Austria-Hungary take the lion's share of the blame for the reasons I have outlined in previous posts, I am really not sure about the extent to which Germany had a cunning plan to start a wider war at that time (on the basis that they would soon be at a disadvantage compared to Russia/France).

There are three likely possibilities:

a) There was no plan but the Kaiser was simply criminally negligent in allowing A-H to dictate events once it was clear they weren't going to take immediate action (which would at least have been understandable).

b) There was a plan and the Kaiser was at the heart of it all along

c) There was a plan, the Kaiser was at the heart of it but he then got cold feet (or a sudden realisation that following through on this would lead to disaster) but by this time von Moltke and the General Staff effectively 'took over the show'.


There unquestionably was such a cunning plan: the Von Schlieffen plan. It was not the sort of thing that can be dreamed up and organized overnight -- mobilization orders, maps, railway schedules, etc, etc, had to be written out and put in place. The question is when exactly was the decision made to execute it.

For whatever my opinion is worth, I am inclined to believe option "c". I rather think the German military realized that the crisis over the assassination of the Archduke could be used as an excuse to execute the Von Schlieffen plan, and that was why they encouraged the Austrians to make maximum demands to Serbia. There is reason to believe that the Kaiser attempted towards the end of July to divert the German army to attack Russia, and stay on the defensive against France so as not to invade Belgium and provoke Britain. However, von Moltke apparently argued that there was no time for the massive re-work of the railway schedules that would involve.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 202
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/10/2017 10:00:02 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		Lol. Military plans are not political plans.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 203
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/10/2017 11:23:06 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Lol. Military plans are not political plans.


"War is the continuation of politics by other means" - Carl von Clausewitz

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Capitaine)
Post #: 204
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/11/2017 1:52:26 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Lol. Military plans are not political plans.


"War is the continuation of politics by other means" - Carl von Clausewitz

And that's why nations have military plans for EVERY contingency.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 205
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/11/2017 1:56:19 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Lol. Military plans are not political plans.


"War is the continuation of politics by other means" - Carl von Clausewitz


And that's why nations have military plans for EVERY contingency.


I once wrote one for an amphibious invasion of Chile!

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Capitaine)
Post #: 206
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/11/2017 6:11:33 PM   
wings7


Posts: 4591
Joined: 8/11/2003
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Lol. Military plans are not political plans.


"War is the continuation of politics by other means" - Carl von Clausewitz


And that's why nations have military plans for EVERY contingency.


I once wrote one for an amphibious invasion of Chile!

Joe, please post your military plan on the amphibious invasion of Chile on the forum here...I (we) would like to read & study it! Thanks!

_____________________________

Please come and join and befriend me at the great Steam portal! There are quite a few Matrix/Slitherine players on Steam! My member page: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197988402427

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 207
RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 9/11/2017 10:11:32 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wings7


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

Lol. Military plans are not political plans.


"War is the continuation of politics by other means" - Carl von Clausewitz


And that's why nations have military plans for EVERY contingency.


I once wrote one for an amphibious invasion of Chile!

Joe, please post your military plan on the amphibious invasion of Chile on the forum here...I (we) would like to read & study it! Thanks!


I wrote it during my BNOC about 20 years ago, but wherever it is now, it's still the property of the U.S. Army. Suffice it to say that Chile is long but relatively thin strip of land on S. America's southwest coast that was subjected to multiple simultaneous amphibious operations that divided and isolated the country.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to wings7)
Post #: 208
Page:   <<   < prev  3 4 5 6 [7]
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited Page: <<   < prev  3 4 5 6 [7]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.250