RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A)

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RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 12/23/2017 9:28:28 PM

ny59giants

Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
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Each of you is doing a defensive mission with CAP vs LRCAP. So, there will be limited interactions between them. When your strike aircraft come in they face all that CAP without benefit from its own escorts. In most games, not this one, players use PWHEX files to restrict stacking of ground units. In late war we see 1000 plus planes or so in a hex. IMO, that is very unrealistic. The game engine is getting overwhelmed and I don't see an easy solution.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1621

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 12/23/2017 9:47:31 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Each of you is doing a defensive mission with CAP vs LRCAP. So, there will be limited interactions between them. When your strike aircraft come in they face all that CAP without benefit from its own escorts. In most games, not this one, players use PWHEX files to restrict stacking of ground units. In late war we see 1000 plus planes or so in a hex. IMO, that is very unrealistic. The game engine is getting overwhelmed and I don't see an easy solution.

The 430+ A6M8 were in an escort role form the KB. So they should have taken on the CAP. The real issue for me is that the 2 groups that actually flew weren't protected by the massive escort or the powerful LR CAP. I get why to an extent, but the combat before the CAP got to them while the A6M8 hit the CAP should have been a lot longer. It's like the cooperating sweep issue, when combat just ends after 10 passes.

I've used LR CAP before in the endgame, and had it used extensively against me. Planes do usually interact a LOT with the LR CAP. I think the extra element here was the KB planes.

I wish we could have stacking limits for the ground war, but alas, it's a scen 1 game and by the time Dan took over that would have been a mess to figure out.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 1622

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 12/24/2017 7:38:57 AM

Alfred

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Joined: 9/28/2006
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It isn't a game engine problem.

The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat. In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka. Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo, probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.

Alfred

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1623

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 12/24/2017 11:22:35 AM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It isn't a game engine problem.

The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat.� In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka.� Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo,�probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.

Alfred

You don't give a lot of information to draw conclusions from, but:

+1, I totally with agree with Alfred. I have constantly seen this happen.

And, not mentioned yet, is that the local commanders on a Carrier task force send what they feel is an appropriate strike package against the targets identified. An alpha strike against carriers or battleships, but far less against merchant shipping which explains to me why the large strike group didn't take off -- recon did not spot targets worthy of an Alpha Strike.

Also, I have often seen under-performance on complicated raids where there is a lot of coordination/cooperation from diverse bases. I have attributed this to planes loitering to join up. It is most noticeable to me on large cooperative sweeps that end quickly and often with few losses.

The mixture of LRCAP with escorts with lots of different types of fighters seem to cause under performance. Especially true when the LRCAP has altitude settings different than the strike package altitude. I have gotten to calling them close escort (everyone set to the same altitude) to far escort (diverse altitude).

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 12/24/2017 11:39:42 AM >

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 1624

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 12/24/2017 1:06:16 PM

Alfred

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I posted some comments this week on loiter in this thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3942516&mpage=1&key=&#4403204

The comments in that thread and even more so those in the linked thread I provided go to the nub of the issue here. Although both threads dealt with other air issues not directly germane to obvert's current issue, my comments on loiter and endurance actually go to the heart of on time station combat.

Putting aside all the variables which are inputs into the fighter to fighter air combat algorithms, the length of combat is largely determined by two factors:

the maximum number of combat passes
loiter time

When AE first shipped out the maximum number of combat passes was 200. That number was increased by michaelm to 300 following complaints. As the combat passes deals with flights, each flight having more than 1 aircraft, more than 300 planes can be involved in combat. This however is the maximum possible with the actual number of combat passes usually being much less after all the relevant variables come into play.

The "loiter" time (actually the term is really only appropriate for the defensive CAP, offensive operations don't really loiter but a similar determination is used to determine how long they can be in combat before having to RTB) can really reduce the length of participation.

The basic point of all this is that all changes made to the AE air combat model were specifically intended to reduce the unrealistic humungus sized air battles of classical WITP. It was not the norm in the PTO for hundreds of fighters to be involved in A2A combat on a daily basis at a single location; let alone the daily multiple locations which often occur in PBEMs.

As a result of the AE changes, players who insist on these unrealistic humungus packages will often find that a large part of their assembled force will largely sit idly by with minimal, if any, participation in combat. Yet the supply consumption (plus pilot and airframe fatigue etc) will be incurred even if they did not participate in combat. Striking at maximum range will exacerbate the "problem" as it will reduce the "loiter" time.

Alfred

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 1625

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 12/24/2017 2:28:10 PM

crsutton

Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It isn't a game engine problem.

The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat.� In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka.� Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo,�probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.

Alfred

Probably correct and this fight may have just been a "one off" that was the result of a number of factors. However I frequently use LRCAP as bomber escort and do it at long ranges. I find that the LRCAP will get involved very nicely even at drop tank range. However, there are occasions-even in the same turn when LRCAP will show up and fight for one unit and not appear when a later unit flys in. This does seem to be a factor of range but I really have not tested it. And, have yet to fight an air battle as large as the one here.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 1626

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 12/24/2017 5:43:05 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It isn't a game engine problem.

The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat.� In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka.� Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo,�probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.

Alfred

You may have missed that I mentioned the A6M8 were on escort duty, not LR CAP. So they flew at strike distance which was 6 hexes with drop tanks.

The other LR CAP was from many bases as can be seen in the shot with the many red lines. Some of them were farther, but Wakkanai was not too far.

While you say this is too far, I can sweep from Sapporo at max range and actually get a full combat in (as long as the sweeps don't cooperate, in which case it's much shorter and results in almost no losses fro either side)

I realise it's messing with the limits of the engine, but I have to strike, so I've got to find ways that can optimise the fighters I have while getting bombers through. Neither happened that turn, so back to the drawing board.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 1627

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 12/24/2017 5:45:55 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It isn't a game engine problem.

The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat.� In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka.� Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo,�probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.

Alfred

You don't give a lot of information to draw conclusions from, but:

+1, I totally with agree with Alfred. I have constantly seen this happen.

And, not mentioned yet, is that the local commanders on a Carrier task force send what they feel is an appropriate strike package against the targets identified. An alpha strike against carriers or battleships, but far less against merchant shipping which explains to me why the large strike group didn't take off -- recon did not spot targets worthy of an Alpha Strike.

Yes, I had lots of search in addition to the recon, but it was probably interfered with enough by the CAP to make my detection lousy. He also had a zillion TFs sitting at Shikuka, likely for these reasons.

quote:

Also, I have often seen under-performance on complicated raids where there is a lot of coordination/cooperation from diverse bases. I have attributed this to planes loitering to join up. It is most noticeable to me on large cooperative sweeps that end quickly and often with few losses.

The mixture of LRCAP with escorts with lots of different types of fighters seem to cause under performance. Especially true when the LRCAP has altitude settings different than the strike package altitude. I have gotten to calling them close escort (everyone set to the same altitude) to far escort (diverse altitude).

I've made some of this work before. And I've had some of it used effectively against me. I have to look back one day when I have time and check some old combat reports.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 1628

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 12/24/2017 5:50:25 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

It isn't a game engine problem.

The problem is that you flew from locations too far away from Shikuka to allow much on station combat.� In order to be fully effective all those A6M8 Zeros should have flown no further away than 4 hexes from Shikuka.� Of the LBA covering force only the Oscars, assuming they didn't fly from Sapporo,�probably flew from a close enough location to be full participants.

Alfred

Probably correct and this fight may have just been a "one off" that was the result of a number of factors. However I frequently use LRCAP as bomber escort and do it at long ranges. I find that the LRCAP will get involved very nicely even at drop tank range. However, there are occasions-even in the same turn when LRCAP will show up and fight for one unit and not appear when a later unit flys in. This does seem to be a factor of range but I really have not tested it. And, have yet to fight an air battle as large as the one here.

Vertical range is also a factor. The LR CAP will dive onto lower CAP and hit it, and not make it back up to help sweeps for instance. Or help a sweep and not make it down for the strikes. Then show up again for another sweep.

I've used LR CAP at very long ranges as well, and it is less predictable, but this was simply an odd combo of outcomes.

Gotta see what else I've got up my sleeves!

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 1629

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 12/24/2017 11:08:35 PM

Alfred

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I neither overlooked the fact the A6M8 were on an escort mission nor that they were using drop tanks. Without drop tanks they could not reach Shikuka.

Nor have I emphasised the nature of the missions involved for that is not particularly germane other than in my comment that loiter time is a concept much more applicable to defensive missions rather than offensive missions. Both CAP and LRCAP are defensive missions whereas a sweep is an offensive mission. Nevertheless it is the range of the individual aircraft models rather than the type of mission undertaken which is the more determinative factor.

There has to be a minimum amount of combat involved in an offensive mission undertaken by a single air unit else the possibility would arise of a sweep arriving and then almost immediately breaking off because it's "loiter" time had been quickly expended. You can imagine the howls of player complaints which would ensue if a single unit sweep arrived and almost immediately broke off contact with the enemy. When multiple air units are involved in an offensive mission the impact of "loiter" on the length of combat will not be so obvious to the player.

It is not easy for a player to keep track of the total number of combat passes which occurred. What may seem to be a full combat could still fall well short of the theoretical maximum number of combat passes.

Let's not forget the other relevant considerations for length of combat. Pilots RTB early when morale fails. Multiple planes can RTB from a morale failure even though they were not engaged in combat. As noted by others, climb rates is another relevant factor.

By this stage of the war, generally speaking Japanese fighters are shorter ranged than Allied fighters. This is true whether drop tanks are or are not used. With drop tanks, at normal range the A6M8 was using up 85.7% of its range just to get to Shikuka. The F6F-3 and F6F-5 Hellcat models would be using up 75% and 60% respectively of their range if they were undertaking a similar ranged operation. It is obvious that the Hellcat has a much greater buffer which will translate, ceteris paribus, into a longer "loiter" time and longer combat participation. This Allied benefit of longer legged fighters becomes more obvious with LBA such as Lightnings and Mustangs. It is really only the Oscar which remains in the range race with the Allied fighters.

Obvert has to fight with the assets (units, models, locations etcs) he possesses. Means he has to be more precise in how he tailors his actions to maximise their strengths and minimises their weaknesses respectively. Simply ascribing the issue to engine failure is not the right approach, particularly when it is WAD. Just lumping everything together into a humungus package is not guaranteed to produce optimal results.

Alfred

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1630

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/3/2018 7:17:12 PM

obvert

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We've had a bit of a hiatus in the past few days. The family here was getting over jet lag and I had to get antibiotics for a chest infection. Not so fun.

In addition, now, once I got back into it all and was running the latest turn, my laptop crashed. I lost that and to top it off it looks like it�s toast. No sign of life.

So � I need to figure out what to do next. I�ll try to get bootcamp and Windows going on my Mac finally and play on there if possible. If that doesn�t work I�ll need to get another game laptop. It might a day or two before I can get this going again.

That machine is the only one I�ve played WITP and WITP:AE on, so it was due a retirement!! It served me well!

I just wish I�d put it out to pasture in a planned way instead of unexpectedly seeing it topple over and die.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 1631

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/3/2018 7:28:37 PM

Lecivius

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From: Denver
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And right after Christmas! An opportunity lost

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If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1632

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/4/2018 12:05:44 AM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
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I know that various people on the forums use Parallels on Mac for WITP-AE (and the new Intel Monkey).

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(in reply to Lecivius)

Post #: 1633

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/4/2018 7:40:11 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

And right after Christmas! An opportunity lost

Haha!!

Hopefully it won't cost me anything, just a lot of logistics figuring out how to configure for windows running on a Mac.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lecivius)

Post #: 1634

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/5/2018 8:37:46 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I know that various people on the forums use Parallels on Mac for WITP-AE (and the new Intel Monkey).

I'm going to give it a shot. I'm sure I'll post some questions.

Looks like I might be able to get Bootcamp and Windows installed early next week.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 1635

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/15/2018 10:49:44 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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June 21-25, 1944

We've played a few turns since the big strike on Shikuka. The Allies are now starting to chip away at Allied industry with 4E, and especially low level B-29 strikes.

As I distribute fighters around the Home Islands I'm trying to get coverage of all bases, but it's nearly impossible to stop strikes coming in at 2k, or even 7k, even in daylight.

I'd not encountered this strategy before. Using B-29s at 2k is devastating, and with the low quality of Japanese AA assets that hit planes in this altitude band, I have little hope of stopping the onslaught now. This is only the very beginning, and a small taste of what may come if I can't slow them down. Any thoughts?

Dan is good at varying targets, varying day/night strikes, and really hasn't had to work too hard to get some significant results in the past week. I feel my only chance to turn the tide is to hit Shikuka itself with bombardments, but that is also fraught with difficulty. Firstly, I can't seem to get a good enough level of search to "show" the combat ships present so planes will fly to target them. Second, I'll have to negotiate many subs, surely a lot of mines and PT boats, and then the SCTFs present.

So. If the KB can't hit these TFs, what can I do? I may have to take this in clear stages. I know my ASW assets can hit subs, so I may have to reduce the numbers lots of air ASW and some surface forces very close to Shikuka. I may also have to send in fast Es and DDs to see if they can take out the PT boats, or some of them. I also may have to send the entire remaining IJN surface fleet to Shikuka when I do strike to ensure something hits the base, then plan to sacrifice the IJAAF 2E bombing fleet to try to add to whatever damage the IJN can inflict.

This is going to be a long process I know. I can sacrifice the IJN surface fleet if it can close Shikuka and then I can keep it shut. I cannot lose the KB, of course. So if Shikuka can be closed then I can continue to work on it, and whatever 700 ships are in port, the 4Es on the airfield, and hopefully reduce supply as well.

I need to force the USN to return with the CVs before he can repair the damaged from the last battle.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 21, 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 38 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 6
B-24J Liberator x 9
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 14

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24J Liberator: 4 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 6 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak

Resources hits 49

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 26 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 6
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 9

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 4 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 5 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak

Resources hits 27

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 21 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 7

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged

Resources hits 23

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 22, 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Harbin , at 109,39

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 27 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.III x 10

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.III: 1 damaged
Liberator B.III: 1 destroyed by flak

Manpower hits 26
Fires 4680

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Liberator B.III bombing from 2000 feet *
City Attack: 5 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Harbin , at 109,39

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Allied aircraft
Liberator GR.III x 5

No Allied losses

Manpower hits 28
Fires 17062

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x Liberator GR.III bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 8 x 250 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Harbin , at 109,39

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 34 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 54

No Allied losses

Manpower hits 639
Fires 363300

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 7000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Uruppu-jima , at 130,52

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 36,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 25
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 34

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5b Zero: 2 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 3 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Prome (55,50)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 111716 troops, 1036 guns, 937 vehicles, Assault Value = 3363

Defending force 293052 troops, 4434 guns, 5432 vehicles, Assault Value = 5344

Japanese ground losses:
345 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 34 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 9 (1 destroyed, 8 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
41 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 3 (2 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 10 (6 destroyed, 4 disabled)

Assaulting units:
55th Division
3rd RTA Division
5th Division
31st Division
4th RTA Division
1st Tank Division
2nd Division
24th Ind.Mixed Brigade
14th Division
6th RTA Division
11th Air Defense AA Regiment
43rd Const Co
5th Mortar Battalion
15th Const Co
13th RF Gun (Pack) Battalion
18th Army
23rd AA Regiment
12th Air Defense AA Battalion
69th Field AA Battalion
44th Ind.AA Gun Co
53rd Field AA Battalion
7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
51st Field AA Battalion
1st RF Gun Battalion
50th Field AA Battalion
4th RF Gun Battalion
11th Air Defense AA Battalion
23rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
11th Ind.Hvy.Art Battalion
36th JNAF AF Unit

Defending units:
254th Armoured Brigade
3rd Carabiniers Regiment
27th Infantry Division
40th Infantry Division
29th British Brigade
Americal Infantry Division
268th Motorised Brigade
23rd Indian Division
6th Australian Division
255th Indian Tank Brigade
I Aus Corps Engineer Battalion
5th Indian Division
2nd USMC Tank Battalion
39th Indian Division
41st Infantry Division
193rd Tank Battalion
14th Indian Division
32nd Infantry Division
7th Australian Division
754th Tank Battalion
2nd British Division
3rd Cavalry Regiment
14th Army Engineer Battalion
81st (West African) Division
9th Australian Division
19th Indian Division
26th Indian/A Division
26th Indian/B Division
26th Indian/C Division
IV Indian Corps
30th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
175th USAAF Base Force
XXXIII Indian Corps
20th Indian Heavy AA Regiment
1st West African AA Regiment
223rd Field Artillery Battalion
23rd AA Bde
8th Mahratta AT Gun Regiment
X' Force
197th Coast AA Regiment
77th Coast AA Regiment
208th Coast AA Regiment
16th Indian Heavy AA Regiment
XXXIII Corps RIASC Base Force
2nd HK&S Heavy AA Regiment
1st RM Heavy AA Regiment
31st Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
122nd British AT Gun Regiment
I/14th Army RIASC Base Force
96th Coast AA Regiment
Southeast Asia
70th Coast AA Regiment
85th British AT Gun Regiment
78th Coast AA Regiment
205th Coast AA Regiment
2nd USMC Field Artillery Battalion
858th Engineer Aviation Battalion

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 55,51 (near Prome)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 60741 troops, 573 guns, 948 vehicles, Assault Value = 2036

Defending force 107190 troops, 948 guns, 492 vehicles, Assault Value = 3117

Japanese ground losses:
115 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 10 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
227 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 28 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled

Assaulting units:
48th Division
2nd Tank Division
18th Tank Regiment
14th Tank Regiment
11th Tank Regiment
18th Division
79th Brigade
7th RTA Division
52nd Field AA Battalion
14th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion
3rd Ind.AA Gun Co
16th AA Regiment
2nd Medium Mortar Battalion
2nd Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
70th Field AA Battalion
2nd Air Defense AA Regiment
8th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion
32nd Air Defense AA Battalion
60th Field AA Battalion
7th RF Gun Battalion
9th RF Gun Battalion
10th RF Gun Battalion

Defending units:
5th Chinese Corps
23rd Chindit Brigade
50th Indian Para Brigade
1st New Chinese Corps
Guides Cavalry Regiment
147th(Sep) Infantry Regiment
46th Indian Brigade
25th Indian Division
14th Chindit Brigade
6th Chinese Corps
2nd Indian AA Bde
8th Medium Regiment
25th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
33rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 23, 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 192 NM, estimated altitude 38,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 57 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 34
Ki-84a Frank x 49

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 15

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 5 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
32 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 35300 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 52
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 29
Ki-84a Frank x 23
Ki-100-I Tony x 10

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 7 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 4 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 6 damaged
F4F-7 Wildcat: 2 destroyed on ground
PB4Y-1P Liberator: 1 damaged
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged
Liberator GR.III: 2 damaged
PBY-5A Catalina: 1 destroyed on ground
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
5 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 3
Runway hits 9

Aircraft Attacking:
23 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 115 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 142
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 26
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 71
Ki-84a Frank x 22

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 5 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 28 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 3 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 8 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 41 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 destroyed on ground
Liberator GR.III: 3 damaged
Liberator GR.III: 1 destroyed on ground
B-24D1 Liberator: 9 damaged
PBY-5A Catalina: 2 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed on ground
PB4Y-1P Liberator: 1 destroyed on ground
F-5A Lightning: 2 damaged

Allied ground losses:
3 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 20

Aircraft Attacking:
25 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 97 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49-IIb Helen x 37
Ki-84a Frank x 16

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 6 damaged
Ki-49-IIb Helen: 6 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 damaged
Liberator GR.III: 2 damaged
Liberator GR.III: 1 destroyed on ground
B-24D1 Liberator: 1 damaged
F-5A Lightning: 1 damaged
F-5A Lightning: 1 destroyed on ground
F4U-1A Corsair: 6 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 3 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed on ground
PBY-5A Catalina: 3 damaged
PBY-5A Catalina: 1 destroyed on ground
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
3 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 7

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x Ki-49-IIb Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Nagaoka , at 114,58

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 28 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 8
Ki-100-I Tony x 11

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.III x 13
B-29-1 Superfort x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.III: 1 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 8 damaged

Ki-84b Frank factory hits 5
N1K2-J George factory hits 17

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x Liberator B.III bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
50th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead
51st Sentai with Ki-100-I Tony (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 7000.
Raid is overhead
246th Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead
265 Ku S-2 with J2M3 Jack (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 9000.
Raid is overhead

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Nagaoka , at 114,58

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 49 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 2
Ki-84a Frank x 7
Ki-100-I Tony x 9

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 4 damaged

Ki-46-III Dinah factory hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 7000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 24, 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Ominato , at 119,54

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 26 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-45 KAId Nick x 29

Allied aircraft
Liberator GR.III x 3

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator GR.III: 2 damaged
Liberator GR.III: 1 destroyed by flak

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Liberator GR.III bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 8 x 250 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 34 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 6

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 4 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Manpower hits 33
Fires 14375

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Bihoro , at 123,51

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 64 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 4

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 4 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Port Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 10 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 damaged

Manpower hits 3
Fires 18720

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 13 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 3 damaged

Manpower hits 11
Fires 25920

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 161 NM, estimated altitude 38,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 48 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 28
Ki-84a Frank x 38

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 3 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
21 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 35000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 174 NM, estimated altitude 39,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 52 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 25
Ki-84a Frank x 17

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 3 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 35000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 25, 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Akita , at 117,55

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 24 NM, estimated altitude 41,900 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 3
J2M3 Jack x 34
N1K1 Rex x 6
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 2

Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akita , at 117,55

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 74 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 3
J2M3 Jack x 17
N1K1 Rex x 4
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 2

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 35

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 14 damaged

Oil hits 11
Resources hits 5
Light Industry hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 7000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akita , at 117,55

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 33 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5c Zero x 1
J2M3 Jack x 12
N1K1 Rex x 3
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 1

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 4 damaged
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 destroyed by flak

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 7000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Akita , at 117,55

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 35 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M3 Jack x 3
N1K1 Rex x 2
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 1

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 4 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 7000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 38,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 44

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 6
F4U-1A Corsair x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1D Corsair: 1 destroyed
F4U-1A Corsair: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 35300 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Toyohara , at 124,46

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 35 NM, estimated altitude 38,300 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 27

Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 2
F4U-1A Corsair x 7

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
25 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 35300 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the 20th the Allied CV fleets get under ASW from the Aleutians before the subs could catch them. I will send in a few, but most will hunt in the channels toward major repair yards on the WC and PH.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1636

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/15/2018 12:57:20 PM

ny59giants

Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline

Even though this thought will not effect your game, I feel a Japanese player needs to go through ALL their airframe factories and determine which bases get which airframe production. Especially NFs and late war fighters. I don't think enough thought has been devoted to where to produce what when it comes to late war defense versus strategic bombing. If a player has ever done this, then I haven't seen it. Have you?

What airframe factories do you absolutely have to protect? Go from there and work backwards to defend these 2k to 6k bombing.

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 1/15/2018 12:58:18 PM >

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1637

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/15/2018 2:38:02 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Even though this thought will not effect your game, I feel a Japanese player needs to go through ALL their airframe factories and determine which bases get which airframe production. Especially NFs and late war fighters. I don't think enough thought has been devoted to where to produce what when it comes to late war defense versus strategic bombing. If a player has ever done this, then I haven't seen it. Have you?

What airframe factories do you absolutely have to protect? Go from there and work backwards to defend these 2k to 6k bombing.

Absolutely spot on!! Although I'm not sure what would be "safe" here. If he goes all out for Tokyo, that could be just as bad a base as Nagaoka. Also, some of these strikes, like Kushiro, have hit well protected bases with lots of good naval DP guns and some IJA guns in the units there. I should have some decent defences, but as you see it did relatively nothing to the B-29s either in accuracy or taking them down. I've done a lot better with 12k night strikes on Tokyo to be honest. So ... play and learn!

I haven't seen a player really consider bastions of "safer" factory locations, no. Maybe that's what I'll use my extra supply on now!!

Since I set this up about 4 years ago I don't feel so bad now, just want to find some kind of temporary stop gap, but I feel hitting the source is the only viable option.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to ny59giants)

Post #: 1638

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/15/2018 2:54:11 PM

Andav

Posts: 474
Joined: 5/8/2007
Status: offline

I think Harbin is one of the only bases to intentionally build something thinking it might be safe(r) later in the war. If the Allies come from the Philippines, then the eastern part of the Home Islands would be safer. If they come like CR from the east, then the western side would be better. By the time you know, it will be too late to switch.

Wa

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1639

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/15/2018 3:51:27 PM

Aurorus

Posts: 1314
Joined: 5/26/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

As I distribute fighters around the Home Islands I'm trying to get coverage of all bases, but it's nearly impossible to stop strikes coming in at 2k, or even 7k, even in daylight.

I'd not encountered this strategy before. Using B-29s at 2k is devastating, and with the low quality of Japanese AA assets that hit planes in this altitude band, I have little hope of stopping the onslaught now. This is only the very beginning, and a small taste of what may come if I can't slow them down. Any thoughts?

You could purchase all of those "machine cannon" units with the 20mm AA guns from Manchuria. These have a ceiling of 5K. Concentrate them all at one base on a rail-line that he is likely to bomb at 2K altitude. Once he bombs that base, set all the 20mm guns to strat move, and then move to another base. With a little luck, he will not realize that these low alititude AA concentrations only have a ceiling of 5K. He may think these are 40mm (or at least 25mm) and move his bombers up to 10k or higher. Also, I often try to have at least 1 squadron at the exact altitude that I expect 4-Es. You may be more likely to achieve some collisions this way as well.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1640

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/16/2018 9:43:09 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurorus

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

As I distribute fighters around the Home Islands I'm trying to get coverage of all bases, but it's nearly impossible to stop strikes coming in at 2k, or even 7k, even in daylight.

I'd not encountered this strategy before. Using B-29s at 2k is devastating, and with the low quality of Japanese AA assets that hit planes in this altitude band, I have little hope of stopping the onslaught now. This is only the very beginning, and a small taste of what may come if I can't slow them down. Any thoughts?

You could purchase all of those "machine cannon" units with the 20mm AA guns from Manchuria. These have a ceiling of 5K. Concentrate them all at one base on a rail-line that he is likely to bomb at 2K altitude. Once he bombs that base, set all the 20mm guns to strat move, and then move to another base. With a little luck, he will not realize that these low alititude AA concentrations only have a ceiling of 5K. He may think these are 40mm (or at least 25mm) and move his bombers up to 10k or higher. Also, I often try to have at least 1 squadron at the exact altitude that I expect 4-Es. You may be more likely to achieve some collisions this way as well.

Last turn I checked the location of ALL of my AA guns, and to be honest, I like the standalone Machine Gun units in Manchuria protecting bases there. He can reach them from Shikuka, and did already strike at Harbin.

The other part is that I've just upgraded ALL base forces to include their low level AA guns that come available in 44. I had thought they were useless, and I wouldn't do that. Haha!! Live and learn.

So now the standard IJA base force will have 6 x 20mm, 6 x 12.7mm AAMG plus 10 x 7.7mm AAMG. That should help. The JNAF base forces have 12 x 25mm and 10 x 7.7mm AAMG. The large IJA base forces have 12 x 25mm and 12 x 12.7mm AAMG.

I have a lot of those, obviously, and don't need them anywhere throughout the empire as much as on HI bases now. So I'll be collecting as many as possible to bring back and install in bases. Some more arrive soon plus some of the bigger IJNAF base forces with some 8cm DP and 25mm guns.

In addition, so IJA ground nits have built in AA MG, and are present in many important bases. Altogether this should mean no base has no AA, but of course it will be more effective as a full package of day and night fighter CAP, high and low AA guns, and radar. I will make sure bases with either a lot of HI/LI, oil and/or airframe factories get the bulk of the AA. So far it's been concentrated in big bases, but there should be enough soon to cover more.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Aurorus)

Post #: 1641

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/16/2018 9:45:22 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav

I think Harbin is one of the only bases to intentionally build something thinking it might be safe(r) later in the war. If the Allies come from the Philippines, then the eastern part of the Home Islands would be safer. If they come like CR from the east, then the western side would be better. By the time you know, it will be too late to switch.

Wa

It's only like 18 hexes from Shikuka.

So it's been hit already, and all of the other bases right to Port Arthur are vulnerable.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Andav)

Post #: 1642

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/16/2018 1:16:44 PM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

June 26, 1944

Ok. Here we go again.

I moved into range of Shikuka, sent a massive strike package hurling at it, had multiple sweeps going in ahead, with a more moderate LR CAP over the top to weaken and spread the defenders.

Bad day.

The strikes don't seem to be able to "see" the targets available. In the morning, only a small split group od Judys (3 planes) arrived over Shikuka escorted by 430+ A6M8 perfectly coordinated and sweeping ahead of the "strike." No go, obviously.

In the afternoon, same deal, but almost 100 planes joined in and the A6M8 again led the way, sweeping, suffering, only for a shortened combat and lots of killed Judys (about 60-70% of the strike destroyed even though protection was more than adequate). Those hit with two bombs against the Allied fleets. Flak is murderous, which is no surprise, but with so few strike planes flying, there is no hope to actually hit the fleets. The sweeping zeros also screw up the passes somehow and the combat is shortened, the CAP invades the strike package early, and wipes out a high proportion of the planes without fighting the escorts much at all.

This is obviously some problem that occurs around a very busy base hex, as we can strike with good coordination against the DS, and have shown that twice already, even with more CAP present and more ships in hex (I think). So it's something I'm not sure how to solve. If 475+ escorts cannot get 100 planes through a CAP where only about 100-150 are present at the correct altitude (and fewer total airframes available than the escorts in this pic), what can I do?

It seems my only option is to begin throwing IJN surface forces headlong into the base, sacrificing a good number with the hope some make to bombard and possibly close the fields. That seems rash right now, so I'll hold a bit and see if I can figure this out a bit more.

Any ideas?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR June 26, 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Night Air attack on Niigata , at 114,57

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 9

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged

Manpower hits 56
Fires 32640

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Niigata , at 114,57

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 3

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 1 damaged

Manpower hits 22
Fires 81920

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 20 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 195 NM, estimated altitude 37,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 58 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 22
A6M5b Zero x 28
J2M3 Jack x 17
N1K2-J George x 60
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 64

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 82
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 82
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 26
F4U-1A Corsair x 134
F6F-3 Hellcat x 89

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 3 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 2 destroyed
P-47D25 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 34440 feet *
20 x N1K2-J George sweeping at 34440 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 198 NM, estimated altitude 41,380 feet.
Estimated time to target is 62 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 23
J2M3 Jack x 57
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 29

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 78
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 78
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 132
F6F-3 Hellcat x 87

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 6 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
22 x J2M3 Jack sweeping at 38380 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 194 NM, estimated altitude 37,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 58 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 21
J2M3 Jack x 30
N1K1-J George x 34
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 46
Ki-100-I Tony x 32

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 75
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 77
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 131
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 3 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
34 x N1K1-J George sweeping at 34440 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 199 NM, estimated altitude 35,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 49 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5b Zero x 21
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 26
Ki-84a Frank x 45
Ki-100-I Tony x 44

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 73
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 75
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 122
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 2 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *
34 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *
10 x Ki-100-I Tony sweeping at 34440 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Shikuka , at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 185 NM, estimated altitude 34,440 feet.
Estimated time to target is 45 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 17
Ki-84a Frank x 33
Ki-100-I Tony x 28

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 73
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 74
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 121
F6F-3 Hellcat x 85

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38J Lightning: 2 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
33 x Ki-84a Frank sweeping at 34440 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kushiro , at 123,53

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 75 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 25 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84a Frank x 40

Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 12
F4U-1 Corsair x 5
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 11

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed, 6 damaged
F4U-1 Corsair: 2 destroyed
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 2 damaged

Resources hits 2
Fires 220

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Niigata , at 114,57

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 37 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-100-I Tony x 26

Allied aircraft
Liberator B.III x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Liberator B.III: 3 destroyed, 8 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Liberator B.III bombing from 2000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Niigata , at 114,57

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-100-I Tony x 7

Allied aircraft
B-24D1 Liberator x 9
B-24J Liberator x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
B-24D1 Liberator: 2 damaged

Refinery hits 2
Fires 37376

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 20000 feet
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 23 (LR CAP)
A6M5 Zero x 8 (LR CAP)
A6M5c Zero x 28 (escort)
A6M8 Zero x 433 (escorts - sweeping ahead of strike)
D4Y3 Judy x 4
N1K1 Rex x 23 (escort)
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 2 (LR CAP)
Ki-100-I Tony x 44 (Sweep??) Odd this is listed sweeping below, and arrived with the small strike?

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 64
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 73
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 25
F4U-1A Corsair x 121
F6F-3 Hellcat x 83

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M8 Zero: 3 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x Ki-100-I Tony sweeping at 34440 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Shikuka at 126,43

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 12 (LR CAP)
A6M5c Zero x 28 (escort)
A6M8 Zero x 431 (escort - sweeping ahead of strike)
B6N2a Jill x 14
D4Y1 Judy x 14
D4Y3 Judy x 30
D4Y4 Judy x 34
J2M3 Jack x 7 (LR CAP)
N1K1 Rex x 23 (escort)

Allied aircraft
Corsair II x 7
P-38J Lightning x 66
P-39D Airacobra x 18
P-39N1 Airacobra x 18
P-47D25 Thunderbolt x 76
P-51B Mustang x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 21
F4U-1A Corsair x 123
F6F-3 Hellcat x 83

Japanese aircraft losses

NOTE: almost no fighters lost. Very few passes against "sweeping" A6M8 or other escorts or LR CAP

A6M8 Zero: 2 destroyed
B6N2a Jill: 6 destroyed, 3 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 4 destroyed by flak
D4Y3 Judy: 12 destroyed, 4 damaged
D4Y3 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak
D4Y4 Judy: 8 destroyed, 4 damaged
D4Y4 Judy: 2 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Mississippi, Bomb hits 1
CA Boston
CL Trenton
SC PC-790
DD Boyd
SC PC-788
DD Miller
DD Brownson
BB New Mexico
DD Brown

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D4Y3 Judy releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Untouched escorts sitting at the same altitude as the strikes, but CAP hits the strikes after only a few passes against the fighters. Note, not as many LR CAP groups here, and these are all set above 30k to work with the strikes or over the time of a battle like this, to dive on the CAP. Didn't happen at all because the combat was so short.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/16/2018 1:19:15 PM >

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1643

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/17/2018 7:29:46 AM

ericv

Posts: 325
Joined: 1/21/2012
Status: offline

I am not an expert in the game in any way, but I have a ton of experience fiddling with memory editors.

If the engine is the problem, there are a few possible things that can cause trouble. It might be the total number of planes, or perhaps the fact that there are so many different types of planes flying, that in combination with the long range might causes coordination issues, where everything just misses everything.

It can be easily checked. Take a save.

1. Edit the number of planes in the pool with a memory editor, change planes in the attacking and defending squadrons to the same type as much as possible. (If not possible, this can be done in memory as well) run the turn see what happens.
2. In memory, edit the location of the attacking planes to Toyohara. Edit the nationality of Toyohara back to the japanese, reset the location of the Allied troops in Toyohara back to CONUS or so. Put KB in the same hex as Toyohara (this can all be done in memory) and rerun the same turn again with the same total number of planes and with many different kinds of planes as is the case now. See what happens.
3. As 2. but now (like 1.) with a minimum of different planes.
4. as 2. and 3. but with lesser and lesser total number of planes.

Rince and repeat until the number of losses becomes sensible. voila, the reason will be apparent. (but not necessarilly the solution).

Shouldn't take a lot of time.

I am really experienced with using cheat engine to edit these kinds of things in game, so if you want to give it a try and need help , just give a shout.

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1644

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/17/2018 8:13:21 AM

adarbrauner

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline

Nice Ericv!

If not engine limitations, the answer may lie in what Alfred has pointed out previously, i.e. short loiter time available. It may make sense, little time for the escorting fighters to fight along, few engagements, defenders straight into the attackers.

(in reply to ericv)

Post #: 1645

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/17/2018 9:07:18 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

Nice Ericv!

If not engine limitations, the answer may lie in what Alfred has pointed out previously, i.e. short loiter time available. It may make sense, little time for the escorting fighters to fight along, few engagements, defenders straight into the attackers.

The problem with Alfred's theory is that these very same planes had no problem "loitering" at max range with drop tanks in an 8 hex strike on the DS recently. They did not sweep dn they were up against a much larger CAP, so the difference is the addition of LR CAP and the base hex in which the surface TFs are sitting at Shikuka.

Even the best and most knowledgeable of us come up with theories that don't take into account when and where these things have worked differently, and worked well, as they don't have the inside view of the long term nature of the game.

Also, against Jocke in the other game I've played late, we both extensively used LR CAP and I often used it combined with KB strikes against the Allied fleets, with the addition of many more LBA strike planes of all different types.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to adarbrauner)

Post #: 1646

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/17/2018 9:12:10 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

I am not an expert in the game in any way, but I have a ton of experience fiddling with memory editors.

If the engine is the problem, there are a few possible things that can cause trouble. It might be the total number of planes, or perhaps the fact that there are so many different types of planes flying, that in combination with the long range might causes coordination issues, where everything just misses everything.

It can be easily checked. Take a save.

1. Edit the number of planes in the pool with a memory editor, change planes in the attacking and defending squadrons to the same type as much as possible. (If not possible, this can be done in memory as well) run the turn see what happens.
2. In memory, edit the location of the attacking planes to Toyohara. Edit the nationality of Toyohara back to the japanese, reset the location of the Allied troops in Toyohara back to CONUS or so. Put KB in the same hex as Toyohara (this can all be done in memory) and rerun the same turn again with the same total number of planes and with many different kinds of planes as is the case now. See what happens.
3. As 2. but now (like 1.) with a minimum of different planes.
4. as 2. and 3. but with lesser and lesser total number of planes.

Rince and repeat until the number of losses becomes sensible. voila, the reason will be apparent. (but not necessarilly the solution).

Shouldn't take a lot of time.

I am really experienced with using cheat engine to edit these kinds of things in game, so if you want to give it a try and need help , just give a shout.

I love testing this kind of stuff, and if I can't figure out a solution in game I may have to do this. It takes some time though. As I just mentioned, the critical difference here is the presence of surface fleets in a base hex and the addition of LR CAP to the strike package from the KB. The KB has struck recently with three different models of escorts, about 5 different models of strike planes, and successfully launched coordinated strikes at 8 hexes.

The issue seems to me related to planes sweeping, and in this case, the bulk of the escort planes (A6M8) sweeping ahead of the strike. These planes were barely involved in the combat, and in general the escorts were not involved (as shown by very light losses) where the LR CAP did fight the CAP and the CAP easily tore into the strike package.

I'm also concerned that even though numerous high value targets were in hex, more than adequate search/recon were used, somehow only about 25% of the total strike planes available on the KB launched to strike. This is harder to test.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to ericv)

Post #: 1647

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/17/2018 9:31:12 AM

obvert

Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

From those who've been in late game situations: any thoughts?

1. Does LR CAP inhibit KB strike coordination or encourage escorts to sweep? (maybe due to the "'knowledge" that more protection is in hex?)

2. Is there any way to get strikes to "see" the important ships in a hex that is well protected and includes possible hundreds of ships in TFs sitting in a base hex? (how to get full strike packages to fly at massive targets in a base hex?)

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1648

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/17/2018 11:51:53 AM

zuluhour

Posts: 5244
Joined: 1/20/2011
From: Maryland
Status: offline

2 cents as I have only been on the other side in '45-'46.
smaller and more packages over the target.
wear out the CAP.
*Interesting the small number of losses on the sweeps.
Where is GreyJoy????????
It seems he had the opposite issue from the Allied side, I'll try and find it tonight.

< Message edited by zuluhour -- 1/17/2018 11:52:47 AM >

(in reply to obvert)

Post #: 1649

RE: The Elephant Vanishes :: obvert (J) vs SqzMyLemon (A) - 1/17/2018 3:19:28 PM

Lowpe

Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline

I have quite a few theories, but to be honest somewhat hesitant at pointing them out currently.

I have long advocated the sweep ahead strategy, and I think I have a good grasp on the triggers to do this, but sweeping ahead of a big coordinated strike is something you want to avoid.

A method, favored by Mr. Kane, is that a high naval skill commander better targets the air squadrons attacks. I am dubious if this does indeed take place but given it's advocate do apply it in selecting air leaders.

I will point out that you need to ditch the Rex from escorting.

There is at least two types of escorts, and what you need to do here is figure out how to guarantee a close escort. Your strike package arrived with the majority of fighter protection on far escort. Additionally, an approach from the other side of the island would have let you get within 4 hexes for a normal strike range of the A6M8.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 1/17/2018 3:30:03 PM >

(in reply to zuluhour)

Post #: 1650

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