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Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/1/2018 9:44:14 PM

101Man

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Ok, what am I doing wrong? September, 1944. I have three Amph TFs, each carrying an Infantry or Marine Division. The ships are APA, AKA, LSI, and LST.

Used 6x3 BBs to bombard pre-invasion. B-24+B-29 airfield/port/ground attack missions causing chaos.

When the TFs unloaded, the ground forces that turn launched a shock attack on the garrison and shot the wad. I did not order the attack. The three divisions are completely spent (each around 30% strength and an AV of 20.

I had no issues with previous landings (Solomons, Marshalls, Yap, etc.). No surprise shock attacks.

Help.

Post #: 1

RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/1/2018 10:35:43 PM

witpqs

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Upon landing, a shock attack is automatically initiated when landing on:

- Terrain type Atoll (regardless of island size).

OR

- Island size of 1 or 2 (regardless of terrain type).

Make sure you order them to defend or they will shock attack again next turn. Also, be wary of any unit that did not completely unload, because when the rest of the unit unloads the unit will shock attack. Also watch out not to over stack too much or all the supplies landed with the units will evaporate.

There is way more to amphibious landings than this, and you can find good threads giving guidance. Just be advised that amphibious landings against strongly defended targets is one of the hardest things in the game. You have to learn how to do it.

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/1/2018 11:03:31 PM

101Man

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Thanks!

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/2/2018 9:41:26 AM

HansBolter

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Combat engineers, combat engineers and combat engineers.

Battalions and regiments of these are essential for reducing forts if you don't get combat odds that will do so.

Yes, the divisions have some organic ones, but the more you add the better your chances for fort reductions.

Did you just land divisions, or did you land full MEFs? By that I mean the divisions with their associated tank, artillery and other support battalions. Combined arms matters.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 3/2/2018 9:45:52 AM >

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/2/2018 12:26:58 PM

Canoerebel

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My first guess is that supplies neutered your assault troops. If most of the unloading was devoted to troops and there wasn't sufficient supply for them, they're toast. You'd want to have a bunch of LSTs loaded only with supply.

Overstacking (and it sounds like three divisions would be overstacked on the island) would have further drained supplies.

Enemy forts can really play a big role. Six forts are tough to overcome.

Were your troops 100% prepped? Did you have an amphibous force HQ 100% prepped and loaded aboard an AGC ship in the Iwo hex (and set to do not unload)?

Getting amphibious assaults right is complicated. Big amphib assaults against strongly defended atolls is 3x complicated.

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Post #: 5

RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/2/2018 12:45:57 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

My first guess is that supplies neutered your assault troops. If most of the unloading was devoted to troops and there wasn't sufficient supply for them, they're toast. You'd want to have a bunch of LSTs loaded only with supply.

Overstacking (and it sounds like three divisions would be overstacked on the island) would have further drained supplies.

Enemy forts can really play a big role. Six forts are tough to overcome.

Were your troops 100% prepped? Did you have an amphibous force HQ 100% prepped and loaded aboard an AGC ship in the Iwo hex (and set to do not unload)?

Getting amphibious assaults right is complicated. Big amphib assaults against strongly defended atolls is 3x complicated.

+1 to the advice on a separate LST TF unloading supply simultaneously with the assault troops. I always do this and didn't think, as CR did to advise it.

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/2/2018 1:01:57 PM

BBfanboy

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And further to the advice already tendered, you get more firepower if you land some tank units, so adding a couple of the US tank battalions (about 60 AV but much better firepower in the calculations) can really help.

Also, if the target is strongly defended it really helps to pound the target for a couple of weeks to fatigue, disrupt and disable enemy troops to reduce their effectiveness. When you start doing this you cannot give them quiet days to recover - you want daily bombardments and bombings whenever weather permits.
If the forts are suspected to be higher than 3, you want BB bombardments to be able to have more effect on the defenders.

During the landings, embed BBs and CAs in your amphib TFs so they suppress the defenders' fire against the transports and soak up some of the shells.

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/2/2018 6:04:15 PM

gmtello

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What would be the effect of overstacking for both sides . Say the attacker has 3div when stack limit is 6000. And for the defender?

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/2/2018 6:19:34 PM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gmtello

What would be the effect of overstacking for both sides . Say the attacker has 3div when stack limit is 6000. And for the defender?

I have never tried to overstack that severely on an atoll.

As I understand it the effects of overstacking are:

Increased supply consumption
Increased disruption
Decreased ability to recover disruption
Decreased ability to recover disabled squads and devices

Our resident expert, Alfred, if we can get him to chime in, can certainly clarify my mistakes and add any thing have overlooked.

It would be folly to attempt to defend that severely overstacked.
It would be a nightmare to keep supplied.

It might even be folly to attack that overstacked.

Typically, to not be overstacked, a 6,000 troop capacity atoll can't be defended by more than a regiment and a few small support units.
Any base force for supporting air operations eats into the defense AV that can be sustained.

Typically, a reinforced division, or MEF as I described above, should be adequate.
I also, typically leave the invasion TF in place after securing the objective, split the division and immediately embark two regiments back onto the transports, to alleviate the overstack.

Three full divisions on a 6k atoll may mean you will never have a hope of recovering the disabled squads.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 3/2/2018 6:23:10 PM >

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/2/2018 7:05:55 PM

Canoerebel

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From a defensive standpoint, I've never had an issue supplying garrisons at 2x the stacking limit. But when the garrison approaches 3x, issues definitely arise. So if I'm garrisoning Midway (6k limit) as the Allied player, I wouldn't hesitate to have 7k or 9k and possibly 12k...but I would have serious issues when approaching 15k to 18k.

From an attacking standpoint, I'd probably go up to 2x as long as I had plenty of supply coming ashore and was using good assault shipping. I'd also make sure the landings commenced during the morning hours rather than evening, just to get that extra phase of unloading prior to the first shock attack.

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Post #: 10

RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/2/2018 10:33:08 PM

HansBolter

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River crossings, under most circumstances, also force shock attacks. Will take some time and a few thousand turns under your belt to begin to get a handle on this monster of a game. Mastering it will take a lifetime.

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/3/2018 11:45:20 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmtello

What would be the effect of overstacking for both sides . Say the attacker has 3div when stack limit is 6000. And for the defender?

I have never tried to overstack that severely on an atoll.

As I understand it the effects of overstacking are:

Increased supply consumption
Increased disruption
Decreased ability to recover disruption
Decreased ability to recover disabled squads and devices

Our resident expert, Alfred, if we can get him to chime in, can certainly clarify my mistakes and add any thing have overlooked.

It would be folly to attempt to defend that severely overstacked.
It would be a nightmare to keep supplied.

It might even be folly to attack that overstacked.

Typically, to not be overstacked, a 6,000 troop capacity atoll can't be defended by more than a regiment and a few small support units.
Any base force for supporting air operations eats into the defense AV that can be sustained.

Typically, a reinforced division, or MEF as I described above, should be adequate.
I also, typically leave the invasion TF in place after securing the objective, split the division and immediately embark two regiments back onto the transports, to alleviate the overstack.

Three full divisions on a 6k atoll may mean you will never have a hope of recovering the disabled squads.

Close ...

The following comments apply only to overstacking LCUs in a land hex. Airfields have their own separate overstacking rules for aircraft and air units.

1. Stacking limits apply to each side. A 6k SL hex can have up to 6k Japanese and 6k Allied (for a combined total of 12k) without any overstacking penalties. However if the same hex has 5k Japanese and 7k Allied then only the Allied side suffers the overstacking penalties. Both sides having 7k in the hex results in both sides suffering the overstacking penalties.

2. There are three direct penalties which result from overstacking. These direct penalties may be fully or only partially remedied in the end of turn logistics phase (see point 4 below). If not fully remedied then, several secondary consequences can ensue.

3. The direct penalties are:

a random increase to fatigue of 1-5 to all LCUs in the overstacked hex each day the penalty applies
a random increase to disruption of 1-5 to all LCUs in the overstacked hex each day the penalty applies
the estimated supply requirement for each LCU in the overstacked hex is increased by 20% for each 10% above the SL of the hex. This increase is in addition to all the other factors which are fed into the algorithm which determines the estimated supply required

4. The key points to remember are that where sufficient supply can be fed daily to the LCUs so that they remain in the "green", and the overstacked LCUs are not engaged in combat, in practical terms there is no real malus resulting from the overstacking. Where these conditions do not exist, the secondary consequences result.

5. The secondary consequences to LCUs of lacking adequate supply (IOW the LCU is in the "red") and fatigue/disruption include:

devices becoming disabled even when no combat has occurred
reduced combat effectiveness
reduced adjusted assault value
reduced capability to return disabled devices to ready status
reduced fort building capability
slower hex movement

Alfred

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Post #: 12

RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/3/2018 1:13:52 PM

Sardaukar

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Assaulting atoll is probably most difficult thing in AE. As it was in real life.

If possible, bring AGC ship with Amphibious Force HQ. Helps a lot (many mistake that one with Amph Corps HQ, which is just ordinary Corps HQ). Of course not on option in early war.

My atoll invasion composition is Bombardment TF (sometimes additional SC TF), covering CV TF, covering CVE TF (I usually put AGC into that, just in case), 2 Landing TFs, floating reserve TF (in case you need more troops), supply TF, 2nd line TF (with things like construction engineers/AV support etc).

As advice..bring tanks and combat engineers. They make lot of difference. LSTs are your friend.

And old military axiom I was taught about artillery: "If it's worth shooting, it's worth shooting with a lot." Same applies to these invasions. If you really want that atoll...:

"The maximum use of force is in no way incompatible with the simultaneous use of the intellect."
-Carl v. Clausewitz

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/3/2018 7:44:35 PM

JeffroK

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Because I'm a bit different:

I like to make the largest possible Amphib TF that I can using the most efficient ships available, prefer APA but I'll mix them with AP if not enough available. I try to fit at least 2 MarDiv + 2 ArmBn + 2 Combat Eng Rgts.

If possible I'll make a second similar sized TF.

You choose the units which are most experienced, usually MarDiv but by late war USA InfDiv can be equivalent.(AIF & Brit 2nd Div as well) Make sure they are at the latest TOE and have current combat squads.

Aim at getting as much on the beach on the first turn as possible, and they all participate in the same shock assault. I am wary of the co-ordination of getting too many TF landing in 1 turn and all co-ordinating in the same assault.

I'm happy to overstack (landing plenty of Armour keeps up the firepower while minimizing stacking points), ensuring plenty of supply and a quick liftoff after the success of the invasion.

Land where the enemy aint, use your engineers to build bases on lower quality islands.

PLUS, Iwo Jima has 30,000 capacity in my game, take the whole USMC with you.

< Message edited by JeffroK -- 3/3/2018 7:49:03 PM >

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/5/2018 2:18:28 PM

Macclan5

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The very helpful vets have (once again) provided excellent advice.

I will add the following:

1) Use the search function on the 'War Rooms threads' - tremendous insights in many threads there on all topics.

Here is the same such question I posted not so long ago:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4163950&mpage=1&key=Invasion%2CATOLs�

2) Patience Patience Patience. Recon Recon Recon.

One bombardment (as implied) is not sufficient. 'Days and days' of shore bombardment and 'weeks and weeks' of Bombing by Liberators (sic Bombers) is required.

In real life (courtesy wikipedia) : Starting on 15 June 1944, the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Army Air Forces began naval bombardments and air raids against Iwo Jima, which would become the longest and most intense in the Pacific theater.[21] These would contain a combination of naval artillery shellings and aerial bombings that went on for nine months. On 17 February, the destroyer escort USS Blessman sent Underwater Demolition Team 15 (UDT-15) toward Blue Beach for reconnaissance.

They landed in 45.

Get the Airfield and Port Damage towards 100%. Ensure you have 'projected force - Naval interdiction - verses any Japanese resupply missions.

3) While there are many critics of the AI for various reasons - the AI plays very very good defense !

< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 3/5/2018 2:27:07 PM >

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/5/2018 8:15:23 PM

Sardaukar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

The very helpful vets have (once again) provided excellent advice.

I will add the following:

1) Use the search function on the 'War Rooms threads' - tremendous insights in many threads there on all topics.

Here is the same such question I posted not so long ago:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4163950&mpage=1&key=Invasion%2CATOLs�

2) Patience Patience Patience. Recon Recon Recon.

One bombardment (as implied) is not sufficient. 'Days and days' of shore bombardment and 'weeks and weeks' of Bombing by Liberators (sic Bombers) is required.

In real life (courtesy wikipedia) : Starting on 15 June 1944, the U.S. Navy and the U.S. Army Air Forces began naval bombardments and air raids against Iwo Jima, which would become the longest and most intense in the Pacific theater.[21] These would contain a combination of naval artillery shellings and aerial bombings that went on for nine months. On 17 February, the destroyer escort USS Blessman sent Underwater Demolition Team 15 (UDT-15) toward Blue Beach for reconnaissance.

They landed in 45.

Get the Airfield and Port Damage towards 100%. Ensure you have 'projected force - Naval interdiction - verses any Japanese resupply missions.

3) While there are many critics of the AI for various reasons - the AI plays very very good defense !

Sometimes you don't have time to wait...

Then it's about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c

And it might be several divisions etc.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 3/5/2018 8:16:26 PM >

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/5/2018 8:22:27 PM

Sardaukar

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To add, some Japanese bases have very very nasty CD defences. You are going to hurt when invading.

Not naming them, but you will find out.

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RE: Amphibous Ops at Iwo Jima - 3/5/2018 8:43:20 PM

Korvar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Sometimes you don't have time to wait...

Then it's about this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74BzSTQCl_c

And it might be several divisions etc.