Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: cathar1244

On that Italian Army OOB (good find!), be wary of one thing. I tracked down the original document on the internet archive, and it did not include the bit about which equipment was in the units (18 M109G etc.) -- that was probably added by someone else from the well-known "NATO 1989 Order of Battle" document by Andy Johnson. 1984 and 1989 are not that distant from each other, but whoever added that should have noted where that information came from.

One may view the original Italian document at https://web.archive.org/web/20100316144141/http://www.radioradicale.it/exagora/lesercito-italiano-3-quello-che-i-russi-gia-sanno-e-gli-italiani-non-devono-sapere

Cheers

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ORIGINAL: mussey

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Each corps also had two MP battalions: 190, 191, 290, 291, 390, 391.

I have x1 now, is the other for the Lance SSM unit or is it a separate unit? Also, do you see any (reserve) Jager bns for the corps or divisions? Mid-1980's orbats have them, not sure if appropriate for 1979.

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ORIGINAL: mussey

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ORIGINAL: cathar1244

On that Italian Army OOB (good find!), be wary of one thing. I tracked down the original document on the internet archive, and it did not include the bit about which equipment was in the units (18 M109G etc.) -- that was probably added by someone else from the well-known "NATO 1989 Order of Battle" document by Andy Johnson. 1984 and 1989 are not that distant from each other, but whoever added that should have noted where that information came from.

One may view the original Italian document at https://web.archive.org/web/20100316144141/http://www.radioradicale.it/exagora/lesercito-italiano-3-quello-che-i-russi-gia-sanno-e-gli-italiani-non-devono-sapere

Cheers

Thus far, my TO&E's for the Mech bde's include late Leopard I's, M-113 APC's, and M-109 sps. The Alpine units are towed. I can tweak these if needed. A jump from 1979 to 1984 is one thing, but to 1989 I need to be cautious.

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The organisation of the armoured divisions Ariete and Centauro is: one armoured reconnaissance battalion, one engineer battalion, one aviation flight, one artillery brigade (of three battalions of M109s, one battalion of M107s and one HAWK battalion), one signals battalion, and two armoured and one mechanised brigades; the armoured brigades each consist of a signals company, an engineer company, logistics troops, two tank battalions and a mechanised infantry battalion; the mechanised brigade consists of two [mech infantry] battalions, one tank battalion and the same support troops. The independent armoured brigade Pozzuolo del Friuli, which provides the tactical reserve to V Corps, is similar in organisation to the divisional armoured brigades but its three battalions, each of three companies, are equipped with a mixture of Leopard tanks and APCs.

The infantry divisions Cremona, Legnano, Folgore, Mantova and Granatieri di Sardegna consist of one reconnaissance battalion, one engineer battalion, one signal battalion, one artillery regiment (of two battalions of 105mm howitzers, one battalion of 155mm howitzers and one light anti-aircraft battalion), one aviation flight, one mechanised regiment (of one tank battalion and one APC battalion with an anti-tank company), and two infantry regiments (each of three battalions and one company of 120mm mortars; one of the battalions in each regiment is to be motorised).

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The Alpine brigades Taurinese, Orobica, Tridentina, Cadore, and Julia consist of one signals company, one engineer company, one aviation flight, one parachute platoon, one mountain artillery regiment (of three battalions of 105mm howitzers and one battalion of 155mm howitzers) and a mountain infantry regiment (of three to four battalions, together with an APC company); all of the troops of the brigade are mountain-trained and the supply columns contain mules.

The parachute brigade Folgore consist of one signals company, one engineer company, one aviation flight, one artillery battalion (of 18 105mm howitzers) and a parachute infantry regiment of two battalions (plus a Carabinieri battalion); all units are parachutable or air-portable.

The amphibious brigade consists of one signal company, one tank battalion, and two or three APC battalions, together with its amphibious transport (which is not sufficient to carry all its vehicles).

The missile brigade deploys two Honest John missile battalions (now obsolescent and to be replaced by LANCE and two M-55 203mm howitzer battalions), all capable of firing nuclear warheads; it also has an infantry battalion for local protection.

The organization of the corps troops varies; in general each corps should dispose of one reconnaissance battalion, one tank battalion, one or two engineer battalions, several battalions of heavy artillery, one or more HAWK battalions, and signal and logistic troops, together with an aviation squadron of 10 - 18 helicopters.

The air force shares the air defence role with the army and deploys 12 air-defence groups with 96 Nike Hercules SAMs.

The navy has a small marine force: the San Marco Regiment (1700 strong), and a commando and frogman group; two landing ships with 57 landing craft provide the sea lift for this force.

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The army's third problem concerns its role. Though committed en bloc to NATO, and forming the largest component of its southern flank forces, the Italian army confronts no Warsaw Pact force, and lacks the mobility to operate en masse outside its own territory.

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ORIGINAL: MikeJ19

Hi Guys,

A play test sounds great and lots of fun. Please count me in.

As for the supply issue, I think a big initial boost for a week to 10 days makes sense - then it can be down scaled - maybe by events.

This stuff looks awesome.

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The infantry divisions Cremona, Legnano, Folgore, Mantova and Granatieri di Sardegna consist of one reconnaissance battalion, one engineer battalion, one signal battalion, one artillery regiment (of two battalions of 105mm howitzers, one battalion of 155mm howitzers and one light anti-aircraft battalion), one aviation flight, one mechanised regiment (of one tank battalion and one APC battalion with an anti-tank company), and two infantry regiments (each of three battalions and one company of 120mm mortars; one of the battalions in each regiment is to be motorised).

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Air defence: HAWK missile and Bofors 40/60 and 40/70 40mm guns

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ORIGINAL: mussey

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Air defence: HAWK missile and Bofors 40/60 and 40/70 40mm guns

Cathar, what do you mean by 40/60 and 40/70?

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ORIGINAL: mussey

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The infantry divisions Cremona, Legnano, Folgore, Mantova and Granatieri di Sardegna consist of one reconnaissance battalion, one engineer battalion, one signal battalion, one artillery regiment (of two battalions of 105mm howitzers, one battalion of 155mm howitzers and one light anti-aircraft battalion), one aviation flight, one mechanised regiment (of one tank battalion and one APC battalion with an anti-tank company), and two infantry regiments (each of three battalions and one company of 120mm mortars; one of the battalions in each regiment is to be motorised).

So one of the 3 is motorized, the other two are foot... This is interesting. Looks like some corrections are in order. I will circle back to this.

On another note, there are several US APC's in the equip editor next to each other: one is a regular M-113 APC, below it is a AIFV with considerably more strength. Do you have any knowledge of this, how/if it should be used?

And yet, if this total is correct, there is ample amount to equip all infantry/motorized units:
"Armoured vehicle: M-113 APC (armoured infantry battalions of the army and the Carabinieri; about 3600 in service)."

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The standard squad AT rocket launcher was the 89mm LRAC. Penetration rating is 40cm. You may wish to create this entry if you're using a modified equipment file; the standard "AT+" rating is very weak compared to even Cold War AT rocket performance.

<NAME>Famas AT+ Squad</NAME>
<COUNTRY>France - 1970's</COUNTRY>
<EQUIP1>1</EQUIP1>
<EQUIP2>176</EQUIP2>
<AT>40</AT>
<AP>56</AP>
<AA>1</AA>
<DF>10</DF>
<ARTY_RNG>0</ARTY_RNG>
<EARLY_RNG>0</EARLY_RNG>
<SAM_RNG>0</SAM_RNG>
<NUKE>0</NUKE>
<VOL>999</VOL>
<WEIGHT>0</WEIGHT>
<SHELL_W>0</SHELL_W>
<ARMOR>1</ARMOR>
<DEFENDER>1</DEFENDER>
<FLAG0>4</FLAG0>
<FLAG1>2</FLAG1>
<FLAG2>0</FLAG2>
<FLAG3>0</FLAG3>
<FLAG4>0</FLAG4>
<FLAG5>1</FLAG5>
<FLAG6>32</FLAG6>
<FLAG7>8</FLAG7>

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Cathar, after seeing your other recent post, I am ready to do this. However, is it possible to create one generic squad for both forces? My intention (if Plausible) is to alter the Assault AT+ Squad that all forces/nations can use for the 1979 period, and not ready to create a different squad for each nation. Hopefully the differences between them will not be so vast?

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Dunno, maybe a generic AT value of 35? (On edit: average is 33)

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ORIGINAL: Lobster

Too bad TOAW cannot properly portray a modern naval conflict. It is geared more towards WW2 for obvious reasons and even then the submarines are still not portrayed accurately. Heck, it even has problems with modern land warfare.

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Too bad TOAW cannot properly portray a modern naval conflict.

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ORIGINAL: mussey

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Dunno, maybe a generic AT value of 35? (On edit: average is 33)

Excellent, that's what I'm looking for. Previously, I mistakenly assumed that the Squads + were already up to modern equipment standards. Though not perfect, this gives infantry more accurate punch via-a-vis armor. Thanks.

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Also, there are numerous reports that the Dragon was replaced (or supplemented) by the 90mm RR at squad level. In addition, it appears as though each battalion had a unit of M113s (of undetermined number), and at least some M125s. At least several individuals have posted on Tank-Net that the Brigade units were significantly overstrength.

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the Soviets were slaughtered.

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What version of TOAW IV are you running? I'd like to look at the scenario, but I'm on the old TOAW IV version that doesn't support the massive new scenario files.

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ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Mussey,

Could you do a scenario dump from the scenario editor and post the file here? That would allow me to take a look at it even if I can't upload it to TOAW.

Cheers