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The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 10/9/2019 11:54:11 PM   
RyanCrierie


Posts: 1461
Joined: 10/14/2005
Status: offline 		This is to help others design hypothetical scenarios; I'll be doing each US yard in turn.


Cramp Shipbuilding Company of Philadelphia

This is the tl;dr version below; more detail is at the link above.

Cramp Basics

2 x Small Slipways capable of handling 500-700 ton barges or tugs.
4 x Large Slipways capable of handling 10,000~ ton Cleveland Class Light Cruisers.

However, during the war; only 50% of Slipway space was allocated to Cleveland CLs, two slipways being assigned to submarine production, with four submarines at any one time being built in each large slipway.

Cramp-built cruisers averaged 489 days from keel laying to launch (compared to the Cleveland class' average of 457 days).

Their submarine production was not great, 644 days from keel laying to commissioning – compared to the Balao class average of 372 days.

If they had never done submarine production at Cramp; the workforce could have completed four additional Cleveland CLs in the time given, with the two slipways now cleared. Alternately, they could have been CVLs.

< Message edited by RyanCrierie -- 10/9/2019 11:56:30 PM >

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Post #: 1
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/5/2019 12:47:10 AM   
engineer

 

Posts: 590
Joined: 9/8/2006
Status: offline 		The Australians completed a huge ~1100 foot drydock in Sydney in early 1945. Is there a way to upgrade the repair yard there to take that into account?



< Message edited by engineer -- 11/5/2019 12:48:08 AM >

(in reply to RyanCrierie)
Post #: 2
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/5/2019 11:12:16 AM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: engineer

The Australians completed a huge ~1100 foot drydock in Sydney in early 1945. Is there a way to upgrade the repair yard there to take that into account?

It might be possible to have separate - late war configuration. I'm not sure, which game elements can be updated during running games. El Cid is doing something similar with roads, so he probably also tried it with bases.
You have few options:
1. Start Repair Yard damaged, and house rule it to not repair until 1945
2. At certain date remove all forces in Sydney, and cause Japanese LCU appear nearby, which will conquer Sydney, and upgrade this Repair Yard
3. Make static repair ship show up in Sydney in 1945. Similar to floating dock in Truk.

(in reply to engineer)
Post #: 3
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/5/2019 11:34:16 AM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

quote:

ORIGINAL: engineer

The Australians completed a huge ~1100 foot drydock in Sydney in early 1945. Is there a way to upgrade the repair yard there to take that into account?

It might be possible to have separate - late war configuration. I'm not sure, which game elements can be updated during running games. El Cid is doing something similar with roads, so he probably also tried it with bases.
You have few options:
1. Start Repair Yard damaged, and house rule it to not repair until 1945
2. At certain date remove all forces in Sydney, and cause Japanese LCU appear nearby, which will conquer Sydney, and upgrade this Repair Yard
3. Make static repair ship show up in Sydney in 1945. Similar to floating dock in Truk.


Your 3rd option is the only one that would work. Option 2 will cause problems with Aussie reinforcements and replacements. Option 1, as long as there is supply at the base, the repair work would go forward.

What is the lift cap for the Dry dock?....GP

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(in reply to inqistor)
Post #: 4
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/5/2019 2:25:38 PM   
kbfchicago


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/17/2009
From: NC, USA
Status: offline 		Any thoughts on the other direction? Singapore has a large yard but some earlier forum comments noted the Japanese could never staff it at an effective level. Thoughts on debilitating the yard to lower level, other than starting it with damage and like #2 option above house rule that says you can not repair or can only repair with an administrative level of ...? if you are the IJ player.

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 5
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/5/2019 2:26:01 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		Undated photo of the Kaiser-Pearson Shipyard in Vancouver WA (across the Columbia R from Portland, Or)

At least 4 slipways occupied by CVEs. Kaiser needed workers so badly but couldn't raise wages (because of wage controls) so they invented health insurance (Not sure what the deduction was from their pay but given wages in the mid-40s I'll bet it wasn't much).









IIRC US shipyards expanded significantly during WW2.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by spence -- 11/5/2019 2:51:21 PM >

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 6
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/5/2019 5:20:44 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kbfchicago

Any thoughts on the other direction? Singapore has a large yard but some earlier forum comments noted the Japanese could never staff it at an effective level. Thoughts on debilitating the yard to lower level, other than starting it with damage and like #2 option above house rule that says you can not repair or can only repair with an administrative level of ...? if you are the IJ player.

I don't have that problem in my game, because it was reduced to 1, when I took Singapore :)

(in reply to kbfchicago)
Post #: 7
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/5/2019 6:29:10 PM   
engineer

 

Posts: 590
Joined: 9/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

What is the lift cap for the Dry dock?....GP


In Hobbs' The British Pacific Fleet he has a photo of an RN fleet carrier in the dock with hundreds of feet to spare lengthwise. So I would say the lift capacity has be anything up to an Iowa on the Allied side. The text documents repairs on HMS Illustrious in Feb. and another carrier, I think it was HMS Formidable in late May/June.

Hobbs also notes that the existing dry dock at the Cockatoo Yard in Sydney was limited to about 10,000 tons so it was not big enough for fleet carriers and battleships.

(in reply to inqistor)
Post #: 8
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/6/2019 3:21:50 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kbfchicago

Any thoughts on the other direction? Singapore has a large yard but some earlier forum comments noted the Japanese could never staff it at an effective level. Thoughts on debilitating the yard to lower level, other than starting it with damage and like #2 option above house rule that says you can not repair or can only repair with an administrative level of ...? if you are the IJ player.


Neither up or down is possible, the files are not dynamic.

Game shipyards are abstractions and allow many more ships to be in them than were possible IRL Arguing about 1100' 1945 alterations is both pedantic and irrelevant to the game engine. Suggestions about using static tenders is of zero relevance to game shipyard size. Other suggestions bear no resemblance to being compatible with the game engine.

Alfred

(in reply to kbfchicago)
Post #: 9
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/6/2019 4:20:16 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		This thread seems to interchange NSY/MSY and RSY, but that is not accurate as they are modelled completely differently in the game.

As a follow on to Alfred, NSY have no impact on allies. Ships arrive strictly based upon schedule for allies.

For IJ, NSY/MSY points are relevant but where they come from is not, BUT the ship DUR is even more important as this is the determinant of cost and time.

Singapore is an RSY yard, not NSY/MSY which is a completely different animal in WITP. RSY is predicated upon ship tonnage/1000.

As Alfred points out, all the things you are proposing are possible in the context of can you do them; but have little to no connection to how the game will interpret them. So you can do them, just don't expect that the results will mirror reality very much.

The shipyards are heavily extrapolated and the dev's have already taken them as far as can be done with the model in place. Now, you can argue about the size of some of the RSY's. My understanding from earlier discussions is that a few were adjusted for gameplay/reality reasons. Example: I remember a discussion about one of the Australian SY's being too big. The countering point was that a certain ship(s) had in fact been repaired there de facto proving that the 'rated' size and the 'reality' sizes were quite different. The devs went with the 'reality' size. This is consistent with a number of other 'exception' to specifications. Range on some aircraft were adjusted to allow them to perform missions that actually happened in contrast to what the specifications state they can do. This was done in several instances on both allied and IJ aircraft. there is a long list here of these types of items. Just saying, be careful about using specs without checking the history to confirm.

Good Luck!

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(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 10
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/6/2019 2:46:58 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		If you want to model changing map conditions during a game, the only way I know of to do so is to change the map data file at desired points throughout the game. In the Sydney shipyard example (although I don't know why you'd care about a 1945 shipyard in Sydney), once you thought the drydock was complete you would replace the game's map data with your new version that includes it.

At least, I'm pretty sure you can make that kind of change mid-game.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 11
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/6/2019 9:08:04 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

If you want to model changing map conditions during a game, the only way I know of to do so is to change the map data file at desired points throughout the game. In the Sydney shipyard example (although I don't know why you'd care about a 1945 shipyard in Sydney), once you thought the drydock was complete you would replace the game's map data with your new version that includes it.

At least, I'm pretty sure you can make that kind of change mid-game.

Map only stores hexes terrain details, so you can simulate construction of Ledo Road, for example. Bases are defined in Locations file.
But now, I recall, that I actually made such experiments with plane factories several months ago. So, if you add new plane factory to base, that factory will show up mid-game, when you exchange location file. But if you just make factory bigger, that change will not show up in running game. I am wondering, what will happen, if you add separate instance of Repair Dock to already existing in a Base.

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 12
RE: The Shipyard Analysis Thread - 11/6/2019 10:25:22 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64


quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

quote:

ORIGINAL: engineer

The Australians completed a huge ~1100 foot drydock in Sydney in early 1945. Is there a way to upgrade the repair yard there to take that into account?

It might be possible to have separate - late war configuration. I'm not sure, which game elements can be updated during running games. El Cid is doing something similar with roads, so he probably also tried it with bases.
You have few options:
1. Start Repair Yard damaged, and house rule it to not repair until 1945
2. At certain date remove all forces in Sydney, and cause Japanese LCU appear nearby, which will conquer Sydney, and upgrade this Repair Yard
3. Make static repair ship show up in Sydney in 1945. Similar to floating dock in Truk.


Your 3rd option is the only one that would work. Option 2 will cause problems with Aussie reinforcements and replacements. Option 1, as long as there is supply at the base, the repair work would go forward.


Repairs to all types of industries can be stopped, including repair yards. Check the Industry Management screen and the Repairs yes/no switch. So a HR that requires the damaged drydock in Sydney not to repair before 1945 is doable.


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Post #: 13
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