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Join the first official tournament - 1/20/2021 12:15:00 PM   
ledrobi

 

Posts: 108
Joined: 11/8/2019
Status: offline 		The first official tournament for Strategic Command WWII: World at War is about to begin. Take on other players and play both sides to see who will come out on top in three maps. Every map will cover one round, each lasting six weeks.


  • 1939 - World at War: Challenge your opponent from the very beginning of the greatest war the world has ever seen.
  • 1942 - Axis High Tide: Germany prepares to advance on Stalingrad while Japan pushes for Midway.
  • 1943 - Allies Turn the Tide: Play for ultimate victory as the Allies close in on defending Axis forces.

    If you’re not familiar with Slitherine’s PBEM system, here’s how it works: the system will pair you with opponents and create your PBEM games for you automatically. You will be notified by mail of when the tournament is starting and when it is time to play your turns. The tournament follows the Swiss Tournament rules.

    Sign up for the Race to Victory to test your skills and climb the leaderboard! All you need to do is own the game and opt in here.

    Have fun!
    • Post #: 1
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/20/2021 10:41:57 PM   
    Marcinos1985

     

    Posts: 430
    Joined: 1/22/2020
    Status: offline     		That 'Tournament Mode' is great news, very much needed for a game like this. Could some of the beta participants write, how does it perform, especially how tight are time limits? You have got some time pool, or given hours for your turn?

    On the other hand, I am very concerned about lack of house rules. For 1939 scenario players that do know about 1940 USSR invasion, will probably win 90%+ games as Axis. Maybe I am out of the loop, but it seems this strategy hasn't been adressed fully. What is more, 1942 seems to be heavily skewed in Axis favour, just check unit counts and tech levels, especially for USSR.

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    Post #: 2
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 9:41:40 AM   
    Epekepe

     

    Posts: 89
    Joined: 3/24/2020
    Status: offline     		Yes, house rules needed.

    (in reply to Marcinos1985)
    Post #: 3
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 11:19:57 AM   
    manickennel

     

    Posts: 20
    Joined: 11/28/2019
    Status: offline     		Each round consists of two mirrored games, so the problems that you face as the Axis in one game will be faced by your opponent in the other. It's not purely about winning or losing, but how you win or lose.

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    Post #: 4
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 1:28:47 PM   
    Epekepe

     

    Posts: 89
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: manickennel

    Each round consists of two mirrored games, so the problems that you face as the Axis in one game will be faced by your opponent in the other. It's not purely about winning or losing, but how you win or lose.



    Yes, that is true. I still like to play more balanced games, where both sides have as much as possible equal chance to win. I believe most of us do, and i will use gentleman rule for 1939 scenario to not attack against USSR before 1941. 1942 scenario i have played only 1 time, so have to check that out.

    (in reply to manickennel)
    Post #: 5
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 4:15:29 PM   
    The Land

     

    Posts: 857
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: manickennel

    Each round consists of two mirrored games, so the problems that you face as the Axis in one game will be faced by your opponent in the other. It's not purely about winning or losing, but how you win or lose.


    I'd be interested to know how long the rounds will be?

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    Post #: 6
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 4:22:47 PM   
    manickennel

     

    Posts: 20
    Joined: 11/28/2019
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: The Land


    I'd be interested to know how long the rounds will be?


    Six weeks per round, three rounds total.

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    (in reply to The Land)
    Post #: 7
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 4:27:16 PM   
    calcwerc

     

    Posts: 124
    Joined: 8/8/2019
    Status: offline     		I dont see how that is an argument? Without house rules the game is unbalanced.

    (in reply to manickennel)
    Post #: 8
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 4:27:40 PM   
    BillRunacre

     

    Posts: 4945
    Joined: 7/22/2013
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985
    On the other hand, I am very concerned about lack of house rules. For 1939 scenario players that do know about 1940 USSR invasion, will probably win 90%+ games as Axis. Maybe I am out of the loop, but it seems this strategy hasn't been adressed fully.


    Hi

    These are the changes that were included in v1.08.00 – November 24, 2020 patch to help address the issue of an early Axis invasion of the USSR:

    - Added alternative deployment locations to the USSR's Baltic Fleet and Baltic Front units, while removing the latter’s link to the Baltic States Decision Event to ensure that they can deploy even if the USSR is invaded prior to June 1940 (pjg100).
    - Mobilization_1 scripts for An Axis Declaration of War on Latvia or Estonia now swing the USSR 25-40% towards the Allies for each, whereas it was previously 25-35 and 15-20% respectively (smckechnie).
    - Mobilization_4 scripts triggering DE 1010 and DE 1011 added for an Axis Declaration of War on Latvia or Estonia respectively. Each will trigger the mobilization of a half strength Soviet Corps in Leningrad.
    - Mobilization_4 script triggering DE 1005 will now lead to the deployment of a full strength Soviet Army with full research at Leningrad and another at Moscow if Bulgaria is neutral when the Axis declare war on the USSR.

    Additionally some other changes were made in previous patches to also assist the USSR in resisting an early invasion:

    - Bulgaria’s starting mobilization reduced from 70% to 50%. It should still join the Axis in 1941 (HamburgerMeat).
    - First potential date for the Winter events in the USSR brought forward from 1st December 1941 to 1st December 1939.
    - If Germany occupies Lithuania via DE 629 then the USSR will now move 20-25% towards the Allies, whereas previously it was 10-15% (ThunderLizard2).

    I do not recall having seen any calls for further changes since that patch was released two months ago, and while that doesn't guarantee it has now been fully addressed I think the issue is now less of a concern than it was before.

    If anyone reading this thinks it is still an issue I would appreciate your starting a new thread in this forum so we can discuss that and game balance further there.

    Thanks

    Bill

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    (in reply to Marcinos1985)
    Post #: 9
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 4:51:26 PM   
    Hubert Cater

     

    Posts: 5199
    Joined: 7/22/2013
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: calcwerc

    I dont see how that is an argument? Without house rules the game is unbalanced.


    Hi calcwerc,

    I believe there are two concerns here:

    1) One is the early invasion of the USSR by the Axis side which hopefully Bill's message just above has addressed, e.g. that changes have been made to ideally make this a bit of a riskier proposal.

    2) The idea that campaigns that start in 1942 or 1943 are one sided, perhaps favouring one side over the other.

    As manickennel mentioned, the rounds are mirrored, so each round will have two games of the same campaign, where one player will play as the Axis side, and the other as the Allied side, and then vice versa.

    There is a scoring system in place relative to the victory conditions for each campaign, and since each game is mirrored, it does at least become for these campaigns, more than just winning and losing, but indeed how you win or lose.

    For example, the round scoring will be your combined score from each game. This just means that while you may lose the 1943 campaign as the Axis, if you limit your opponent to let's say a Minor victory, but in the other game where you play as the Axis are able to achieve a Major victory, then you will end up with a combined score greater than your opponent for that round and so on.


    * * *


    The tournament will start with the 1943 campaign, followed by the 1942, and finish with the 1939 grand campaign.

    Hope this helps,
    Hubert

    < Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 1/21/2021 4:53:37 PM >

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    (in reply to calcwerc)
    Post #: 10
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 6:06:10 PM   
    The Land

     

    Posts: 857
    Joined: 2/19/2010
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: manickennel


    Six weeks per round, three rounds total.


    Thanks Manickennel. That does strike me as quite a short timescale for a 1939 game to run its course. Most competitive games are resigned well before the end date - how will that be handled in the tournament system?

    _____________________________

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    Post #: 11
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 6:43:40 PM   
    Hubert Cater

     

    Posts: 5199
    Joined: 7/22/2013
    Status: offline     		Resigning is not an option in tournament games and players are encouraged to play to the end, even if they are losing, as how you lose, very badly, or only slightly so, reflects in the final score. This is important as games are mirrored and the score per round will be a combination of the results from both games per round.

    Essentially, your best bet for achieving your highest possible combined scores really is to keep playing, even if you are losing, e.g. while you may have a lower score than your opponent for your game in progress while you are losing, it could potentially become even lower if you time out and stop playing, or stop sending turns in a timely manner etc.

    This also matters as each round matters to your final score and ranking in the tournament.

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    (in reply to The Land)
    Post #: 12
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 7:21:19 PM   
    Marcinos1985

     

    Posts: 430
    Joined: 1/22/2020
    Status: offline
    quote:

    or stop sending turns in a timely manner etc.


    Could you elaborate a bit more about this? How are players encouraged to play their turns fast, or penalized for playing slower?
    I would assume longer game can lst about 250 turns, so 125 per players. 6 weeks are 42 days, so one would have to play around 3 turns a day with each side, which equals to 6 total. Am I right?
    Sorry if those question sound dumb, I didn't play in beta and have a hard time to understand this.
    Is there also some clarification about scoring? I very much enjoy a system, where you are rewarded for playing in tough/losing position and are rewarded somehow for this. Good idea!

    quote:

    I do not recall having seen any calls for further changes since that patch was released two months ago, and while that doesn't guarantee it has now been fully addressed I think the issue is now less of a concern than it was before.

    Sorry for raising balance issues here, that was not my intention to hijack this thread. I just think there were no complaints because it is a houserule in ELO tournament and 1940 invasion wasn't tested after changes.

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    (in reply to Hubert Cater)
    Post #: 13
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 7:21:52 PM   
    Epekepe

     

    Posts: 89
    Joined: 3/24/2020
    Status: offline     		Thanks for the information, this will be great tournament. It's already full, btw.

    (in reply to Hubert Cater)
    Post #: 14
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/21/2021 9:09:42 PM   
    Hubert Cater

     

    Posts: 5199
    Joined: 7/22/2013
    Status: offline     		Hi Marcinos,

    No problem at all and really the tournament, while competitive, should be fun, and that's what we are hoping it will be here for everyone .

    It's difficult to say for sure if 6 weeks will be enough for everyone per round, some players play a lot of turns and finish up games quickly, some take a bit longer. The beta test told us things were working as expected, and this official tournament will likely reveal a few things as well even though it is official. The initial rounds which start in 1943 and 1942 should help in this regard as well as they are shorter game lengths.

    For playing turns, from what I understand, it is not a function of how fast you are playing, it is more just the server looking to see if players are more or less abandoning the tournament games or being considerably slow in replying with follow up turns. Off hand I don't have the exact formula for this, it is a backend item, but from what I understand it's not something to worry about either for the clear majority of games. It's more of an obvious timing out and ensuring that the player that has been playing their turns consistently is not the one penalized etc. It is also the exact same setup used for all other releases under the Slitherine/Matrix banner using the tournament system.

    In terms of scoring, I'll put something together in the next few days to help clarify this going forward.

    Hope this helps,
    Hubert

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    (in reply to Epekepe)
    Post #: 15
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/22/2021 12:20:30 AM   
    LoneRunner

     

    Posts: 202
    Joined: 8/16/2020
    Status: offline     		Thank you Hubert and Bill for answering our questions. I really appreciate the development of a WaW tournament. Sounds like a lot of fun.

    I had some concerns that you might consider:
    o With only three rounds and 48 players, tournament leaders are unlikely to ever meet in a match. As a result someone may win the tournament without beating another top player. I'd recommend adding several more rounds.

    o Odds are that the tournament will be won by someone who is matched with a beginner in the first round. They will rack up so many points that other evenly matched players will not have a chance of catching up. I recommend adjusting the points earned in each round such that a lot more points are earned in later rounds.

    o According to tournament rules winners are matched with winners and losers with losers. However, when two evenly matched winning players meet and grind out a tough win, their game will probably not generate as many points as a blowout between two players who lost in the first rounds. As a result a game between two beginners could have a big impact on tournament results. Perhaps even catapulting the beginner into a top position. I recommend in subsequent rounds winner vs winner matches be assigned a lot more points than loser vs loser matches.

    < Message edited by LoneRunner -- 1/22/2021 12:37:10 AM >

    (in reply to Hubert Cater)
    Post #: 16
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/22/2021 12:40:00 PM   
    HamburgerMeat

     

    Posts: 361
    Joined: 7/22/2017
    Status: offline     		In any event it seems like a good testing ground for the current effectiveness of the 1940 USSR invasion. Looking forward to it!

    (in reply to LoneRunner)
    Post #: 17
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/22/2021 1:38:23 PM   
    Hubert Cater

     

    Posts: 5199
    Joined: 7/22/2013
    Status: offline     		Thanks LoneRunner, and it might very well be that additional rounds would be better, however since this one will already take approximately 4.5 months as is, there is some desire to see how this one works out first before running a much longer first official tournament, if necessary.

    Some good points on the rounds and the values of rounds as well, and we are discussing as currently there are some limitations, e.g. I don't believe this is currently an option with the tournament settings, but something to look into and consider for sure.

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    (in reply to HamburgerMeat)
    Post #: 18
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/22/2021 3:02:22 PM   
    The Land

     

    Posts: 857
    Joined: 2/19/2010
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: LoneRunner


    o Odds are that the tournament will be won by someone who is matched with a beginner in the first round. They will rack up so many points that other evenly matched players will not have a chance of catching up. I recommend adjusting the points earned in each round such that a lot more points are earned in later rounds.

    o According to tournament rules winners are matched with winners and losers with losers. However, when two evenly matched winning players meet and grind out a tough win, their game will probably not generate as many points as a blowout between two players who lost in the first rounds. As a result a game between two beginners could have a big impact on tournament results. Perhaps even catapulting the beginner into a top position. I recommend in subsequent rounds winner vs winner matches be assigned a lot more points than loser vs loser matches.


    This is a good point - ideally there would be some kind of player quality weighting on the match scores. A simple way would be having more points on offer for winner vs winner matches, as Lonerunner indicates, but then there is still the fact that a narrow victory against a strong player should be worth more than a total victory against a novice.

    The theoretical ideal is probably to do this at the end of the tournament where you have the most possible data, and then go back and re-weight scores from previous games based on the full results. Though that would mean people didn't know their actual scores until right at the end.

    Still I think the bigger challenge is about commitment and game completion, it will be interesting to see how many players stay the course! Good luck with it all



    _____________________________

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    Always wanted to play a "Cold War goes hot" scenario? Come and join in!

    (in reply to LoneRunner)
    Post #: 19
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/22/2021 3:55:13 PM   
    Cpuncher

     

    Posts: 354
    Joined: 3/26/2019
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: The Land

    Still I think the bigger challenge is about commitment and game completion, it will be interesting to see how many players stay the course! Good luck with it all



    I concur. From the Beta tournament results, it seems 8 players out of 32 dropped out after 1st round of 14 days. I suspect a higher percentage will happen after each round of 42 days here. Life happens, I can't imaging to commit to 4.5 months of gaming, especially a game so challenging and time consuming as this one. It will be amazing to me if 30% players can last to the end.

    So to our very much beloved Devs: Is it possible to allow new players to join after each round? Meanwhile, allow rankings for each individual round, as well as a final grand ranking of those who completed all 3 rounds.

    Also can we have a whole lot more slots to start with, so that more may finish? The 48 spots were filled up in just a bit over a day.

    < Message edited by Cpuncher -- 1/22/2021 4:25:23 PM >

    (in reply to The Land)
    Post #: 20
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/22/2021 4:56:18 PM   
    Cpuncher

     

    Posts: 354
    Joined: 3/26/2019
    Status: offline     		It will be really nice if Slitherine can host an official ladder (ELO or not) for the players. When people start a PBEM they can check an option to be ranked or not. It may require some kind of timing of each player, but preferably not requiring mirrored games. Pro: solve any game balancing issues. Con: People are forced to play to the end, which is not fun after certain point of the game, which is also an issue of this tournament. After all, playing the game is about fun.

    I remember the days when I played Close Combat 2 multiplayer to climb up the world ranking/ladder to the top 50. That was a very rewarding experience, a lot of fun, and a huge driving force to keep me playing that game.

    With an official ladder, people can take their time to play when they can, and see the strength of their opponent when they match up. I imaging it can be a lot of prestige and bragging rights when someone say: "I played the world's number 3 and I beat the crap out of him, blah blah..."

    (in reply to Cpuncher)
    Post #: 21
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/22/2021 9:23:02 PM   
    Wahhim

     

    Posts: 17
    Joined: 12/17/2018
    From: Poland
    Status: offline     		Are there any chances for extra slots to become available?

    (in reply to Cpuncher)
    Post #: 22
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/22/2021 9:47:37 PM   
    LoneRunner

     

    Posts: 202
    Joined: 8/16/2020
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

    Thanks LoneRunner, and it might very well be that additional rounds would be better, however since this one will already take approximately 4.5 months as is, there is some desire to see how this one works out first before running a much longer first official tournament, if necessary.

    Some good points on the rounds and the values of rounds as well, and we are discussing as currently there are some limitations, e.g. I don't believe this is currently an option with the tournament settings, but something to look into and consider for sure.

    Thank you Hubert for considering my ideas. If nothing else, consider a single elimination tournament. With 64 players you would have a winner in only six rounds. Or 128 players in seven rounds. Most people would only have to play two games. Maybe the last game published in an AAR.

    Player pairings could be seeded according to their rank on The Land's ELO tournament. Anyone not in the ELO tournament would be considered a beginner and paired accordingly.

    < Message edited by LoneRunner -- 1/22/2021 11:55:51 PM >

    (in reply to Hubert Cater)
    Post #: 23
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/23/2021 7:13:15 AM   
    ElvisJJonesRambo


    Posts: 1345
    Joined: 2/6/2019
    Status: offline     		Do I need to bother to say, I'm in.

    There must be lights burning brighter somewhere
    Got to be birds flying higher in a sky more blue
    If I can dream of a better land
    Where all my brothers walk hand in hand
    Tell me why, oh why, oh why can't my dream come true?
    Oh why?
    There must be peace and understanding sometime
    Strong winds of promise that will blow away the doubt and the fear
    If I can dream of a warmer sun
    Where hope keeps shining on everyone
    Tell me why, oh why, oh why won't that sun appear?
    We're lost in a cloud
    With too much rain
    We're trapped in a world
    That's troubled with pain
    But as long as a man
    Has the strength to dream
    He can redeem his soul and fly
    Deep in my heart, there's a trembling question
    Still, I am sure that the answer's, answer's gonna come somehow
    Out there in the dark, there's a beckoning candle, yeah
    And while I can think, while I can talk
    While I can stand, while I can walk
    While I can dream, oh please let my dream
    Come true, oh
    Right now
    Let it come true right now
    Oh yeah

    (in reply to LoneRunner)
    Post #: 24
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/23/2021 8:50:15 AM   
    The Land

     

    Posts: 857
    Joined: 2/19/2010
    Status: offline     		Just a note about the 'new player' disadvantage. I looked through the WaW Elo tournament games to find all games where a new player (not previously participated in the WaW or WiE ELO Tournaments) played someone who had. There are 10 such games and only 2 of them were won by the player who is new to competitive multiplayer. They were not normally playing 'difficult' opponents, either.

    _____________________________

    1985 Red Storm mod - Beta testing!

    Always wanted to play a "Cold War goes hot" scenario? Come and join in!

    (in reply to ElvisJJonesRambo)
    Post #: 25
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/23/2021 12:47:43 PM   
    phenix_slith

     

    Posts: 12
    Joined: 5/11/2020
    From: Italy
    Status: offline     		Would have loved to play but it seems it is already sold out.

    (in reply to The Land)
    Post #: 26
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/24/2021 5:28:07 AM   
    Chema_Cagi

     

    Posts: 4
    Joined: 7/8/2005
    Status: offline     		Oops it seems I'm late too, no way to join in the scores page

    (in reply to phenix_slith)
    Post #: 27
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/27/2021 12:48:13 PM   
    nosfer121

     

    Posts: 9
    Joined: 1/14/2021
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

    I would assume longer game can lst about 250 turns, so 125 per players. 6 weeks are 42 days, so one would have to play around 3 turns a day with each side, which equals to 6 total. Am I right?



    Maybe I have missed the answer, but is he right?
    If he is right, I would never have a chance to be part of a tournament like this. I simply haven't the time to play multiple turns a day over 6 weeks or 4 and a half month.

    (in reply to Marcinos1985)
    Post #: 28
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/28/2021 1:36:28 PM   
    Bubblebox

     

    Posts: 12
    Joined: 2/27/2019
    Status: offline     		Well It's been 24 hours and no sign of any opponent. Could we perhaps incorporate a substitute system so that if people do not start their game, say within 48 hours of the tourny start time they can be substituted? We need to be playing, on average, a couple of turns a day to complete the rounds and they are taking the place of people who would have like to have played but could not get in.

    (in reply to nosfer121)
    Post #: 29
    RE: Join the first official tournament - 1/28/2021 2:10:22 PM   
    taffjones

     

    Posts: 346
    Joined: 3/25/2016
    Status: offline     		Same for me too.

    My opponent hasn't played any turns.

    (in reply to Bubblebox)
    Post #: 30
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