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RE: T90 - 2/7/2021 10:06:18 PM

CapAndGown

Posts: 3206
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From: Virginia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Air losses remain one-sided. Most of my LB are off map (no point flying long distances in poor weather) but my fighters take heavy losses escorting the Sturmoviks into action. As before, there is no point worrying about this. You can't solve the gap in experience between the two sides (even careful use of the National Reserve only really brings Soviet pilots up to their notional NM value for experience) and while Soviet planes are improving they are still mostly out-classed.

But the reward for large scale GS makes taking these losses worth it.

How do you know what the reward is? Do combat reports tell you how well your air power is doing without having to step through each unit shooting at each other? I don't want to have to plow through combat resolutions one step at a time to figure out what is going on.

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Post #: 91

RE: T90 - 2/7/2021 11:06:13 PM

keitherson

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Joined: 10/9/2017
From: nowhere special
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quote:

This is part of how it plays the game, it recognises a situation (say with the Axis the chance to move into the Crimea) and then carries out the necessary moves. So it has a core set of criteria and a degree of situational awareness and specific options.

Seems like the AI is a massive improvement this time around. I recall my last game against the AI in WITE, playing as Soviets I had Budapest and Konigsberg by November 1942. Hopefully that is no more.

Couple of questions:

1. I notice the AP costs for most formations are far lower that WITE. Does this mean the soviets receive less "empty" formations as automatic reinforcements? I found it uncommon to need to purchase more rifle brigades and divisions in WITE, has this changed?

2. Can tank brigades still build up into tank corps? rifle brigades into divisions?

3. Can you deactivate an assault front to make room to activate a different front?

(PS really hoping for a beta key this time around. I've been an early playtester/bug reporter for other games.)

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Post #: 92

RE: T90 - 2/8/2021 8:49:17 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Air losses remain one-sided. Most of my LB are off map (no point flying long distances in poor weather) but my fighters take heavy losses escorting the Sturmoviks into action. As before, there is no point worrying about this. You can't solve the gap in experience between the two sides (even careful use of the National Reserve only really brings Soviet pilots up to their notional NM value for experience) and while Soviet planes are improving they are still mostly out-classed.

But the reward for large scale GS makes taking these losses worth it.

How do you know what the reward is? Do combat reports tell you how well your air power is doing without having to step through each unit shooting at each other? I don't want to have to plow through combat resolutions one step at a time to figure out what is going on.

Simply look at a combat report and as in WiTW it will tell you how many elements were disrupted/damaged or destroyed by air power. The main summary tells you this and you can dig in if you want to. The key is the sequence of play. GS missions are executed, then long range artillery, then the closer range stuff. So if an element is disrupted by air power it takes no part in the rest of the battle, so in a way an infantry squad disrupted by GS is of more use than one disrupted by infantry (as it never ever fires in the battle).

quote:

ORIGINAL: keitherson

quote:

This is part of how it plays the game, it recognises a situation (say with the Axis the chance to move into the Crimea) and then carries out the necessary moves. So it has a core set of criteria and a degree of situational awareness and specific options.

Seems like the AI is a massive improvement this time around. I recall my last game against the AI in WITE, playing as Soviets I had Budapest and Konigsberg by November 1942. Hopefully that is no more.

Couple of questions:

1. I notice the AP costs for most formations are far lower that WITE. Does this mean the soviets receive less "empty" formations as automatic reinforcements? I found it uncommon to need to purchase more rifle brigades and divisions in WITE, has this changed?

2. Can tank brigades still build up into tank corps? rifle brigades into divisions?

3. Can you deactivate an assault front to make room to activate a different front?

(PS really hoping for a beta key this time around. I've been an early playtester/bug reporter for other games.)

1 - By mid-42 AP are not much of a currency for either side. Its a constraint in 1941 as you are shifting commanders, building depots etc but given that HQ re-allocation is free there is less call on them once it settles down. The Soviets get a mix of the returning destroyed divisions (pretty much as in WiTE1), empty shells you can build up, leave for later or just disband, and the stuff you order.

Your build strategy is driven by shortages. As I've mentioned in the AAR (I think), the Soviets have an enduring lack of heavy artillery up to early 1944, so no point creating all those heavy artillery SUs. So I build every mortar formation I can and anything that relies on 76mm guns and try to keep my small stock of heavy production for the artillery divisions and on map TOEs.

Rifle Brigades I personally think are more useful in WiTE2 as they are Multi-Role Units (MRU), As in WiTW that means they can be on map or off map attached to HQs or directly to combat units. They are also useful as emergency replacements, just merge one into a battered division or corps if you are in a supply-poor map sector. At this stage, almost all my Rifle Corps have 3 Rifle Brigades, so in a stack that is the equivalent of 13.5 divisions - a lot of combat power. As we move into 1943 I start swapping these out for specialist assault engineers (these are rare), SUs based around the SU-122/SU-152 and then then IS-2s so that I have some Corps optimised for breakthrough operations. But the bulk still use Rifle Brigades as their attachment of choice.

Now some of that is my interpretation of what works, but I'm not seeing any of the other testers offering a radically different framing of the options.

2 - Yes, you need a mot brigade + 2 tank brigades. If 2/3 are Gds then the corps forms as Gds. The brigades need to be either in the National Reserve or directly attached to Stavka, the Corps then appears in the National Reserve to complete fitting out. If you lack one (or more) of the build blocks, you can produce the Corps in any case, but it appears with very low experience levels and will need a fair while to train up.

edit - yes 2 rifle brigades to create a division, much as in WiTE2. But as above, I find I do much less of this in WiTE2 than 1 simply as the brigades have a value in their own right. In WiTE1 I used to regard them as divisions in waiting and to hold rear area fortification lines to stop them decaying.

A good eg of this is the shock armies that appear in WiTE1 stuffed (as historically) with rifle brigades and pretty much a waste of the command bonuses as a result. Stuffing a Shock Army in WITE2 with rifle brigades is a sensible choice, esp up to mid/late 1943.

3 - Yes, you can swap around as you want. If I suddenly decided that I really wanted to hammer AGN, I could swap my Assault Fronts to that sector.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 2/8/2021 11:24:49 AM >

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Post #: 93

RE: T90 - 2/8/2021 12:25:44 PM

Nix77

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: keitherson
(PS really hoping for a beta key this time around. I've been an early playtester/bug reporter for other games.)

Loki, do you happen to know if there will be any more beta testing rounds? I noticed Joel mentioned it couple of weeks ago, but no news after that. I know I have my hands itching to wrestle this monster as soon as possible, just like Keith :)

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Post #: 94

RE: T90 - 2/8/2021 1:41:53 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

quote:

ORIGINAL: keitherson
(PS really hoping for a beta key this time around. I've been an early playtester/bug reporter for other games.)

Loki, do you happen to know if there will be any more beta testing rounds? I noticed Joel mentioned it couple of weeks ago, but no news after that. I know I have my hands itching to wrestle this monster as soon as possible, just like Keith :)

Only what I've read. Technically the game has just entered beta (ie all the systems and constraints coded), Joel has mentioned a few times bringing in a last group to help test balance and just generate play data so that some of the criteria can be refined.

So quite what that means in terms of when or numbers I'm not sure. At one stage, you had to have WiTW to enter (as the early game builds were a variant on that code) but that was dropped a while back and most of the last set of testers came from the WiTE1 community (& it was interesting and informative to see how the process of adaption, especially in terms of then reworking the game documentation), so my guess would be that the next batch will be taken from those with experience of WiTE1 - but that is a guess.

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Post #: 95

T100 - 2/8/2021 4:51:07 PM

loki100

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22 May 1943

This update is based on the end of T100

Background

On 14 March, the long prepared blow by Western Front fell on AGC, while Bryansk Front re-organised for its linked offensive towards Bryansk [1].

By 21 March, the balance shifted with Western Front re-organising and Bryansk Front driving deep into the German front lines. Allied to a renewed attack by Central Front, this reached the outskirts of Kursk and threatened a major encirclement.

By early April, Kursk had been liberated as the Germans fell back rapidly [2]

5 April saw a localised German offensive that stalled the Soviet gains as Central and Bryansk Fronts swapped their sectors [3]. More importantly the heavy rains that lasted till 15 May stopped any significant moves by either side as the Soviets built up for their planned summer offensives [4].

T100

So a good time to review the whole front, options and talk about Victory Points again. I've added the VP cities to the map displays as that helps with the discussion.

This has sector been a stalemate for the last year and is not going to change soon. All my VP targets here are scheduled for 1944 and I am still struggling with the local supply net. The nearest to mobility is a single cavalry corps as a reserve for NW Front.

But we can talk about Finland. That part of the war is abstracted, the Axis have a 'Finland' theatre, I have a 'Northern' Theatre. If we both over-commit, then the VP and time gains more or less cancel out, if one side over-commits (and I have) then hopefully over time they gain a steady advantage. Finland can exit the war when I control the area bounded by the Luga and Narva but to push it out I also need excess forces in my Northern Theatre. There are then a series of events that reflect the historical Soviet offensive into Karelia, the brief stablisation of the front and then the armistice discussions.

At that stage I get the Helsinki VP and the Arctic war becomes my Northern Front against the axis forces in Norway. I get a lot of scripted returns from the Northern Front (but can't reclaim my voluntary reinforcements as I am not playing with the extended Theatre control option).

So before moving on, here's the VP chart. I gained the 'initiative' in late February, so need to hit +616 by the end of 1944 or I lose � realistically the sudden death targets are out of reach.

Now the careful readers will remember I was cursing in 1941 as I lost a number of VP cities early, thus giving the AI the +6 bonus. This is now the consequence to those early retreats, in effect that chart dictates the phasing of my strategy. Stalino will fall early (its now pretty much the front line) but I have 15 turns to take Smolensk (the +6 only happens if I take it 3 turns early) and 18 or so turns to reach the Dnepr bend (Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye) and not much more for Kiev.

Which is why I had Bryansk Front swapping places (and some formations) with Central Front as I need the mobility in the Ukraine not heading towards the swamps of Bielorussia.

For VP reasons alone, the focus for the summer of 1943 has to be the Ukraine. But first I need Smolensk.

So lets start there. As before I am using the two Moscow MD to give command to the supporting formations. Central Front has limited command capacity (its not an assault formation), for Western Front they have the advantage I can weaken my front line while I build up.

Western Front is now clear of the poor terrain and well placed advance to Yelnya and Smolensk itself. Central Front is outside Bryansk and can then advance towards the Dnepr.

This shows the northern Ukraine. My basic goal is for the Bryansk Front to attack towards the Desna and then swing SW towards Kiev. SW Front to attack westwards and clear the northern bank of the Dnepr.

Ideally it will also dislodge the Axis from the Dnepr bend.

Voronezh Front has been trying to secure a bridgehead over the Donets but keeps on being driven back. Stalingrad Front is the main assault formation here but is reliant on Cavalry Corps for its mobility.

As mentioned above, Stalino will fall fairly soon, my basic idea is that the Germans will have to retreat to the Dnepr less due to direct pressure and more due to the offensives in the northern Ukraine.

The south has a huge prize � Rumania - but realistically we are talking about 1944 not 1943 for that gain.

And a quick view on the Crimea. Trying to force the Kerch Straights is a real challenge and in VP terms Sevastopol is a 1944 target (but no harm to taking it earlier). But have set up a naval invasion to help things along � those of you used to WiTW will recognise the process and its much the same in WiTE2. I'll use this if I see an opportunity � perhaps connected with the advance towards the Dnepr bend.

But the entire UI for airborne and air supply operations has been reworked. Not sure I'll ever bother to actually carry out that mission but as in WiTW, its a good idea to keep on setting and resetting these � you never know when it make make a real difference.

Also as part of the rework, the whole process of ordering air supply is so much easier now.

OOB. Depressing bit is the number of German tanks and a 2-1 advantage in the air does not give me regular air superiority. But I am going to be very reliant on GS missions so its a simple case of accepting the losses till the LW is pulled west by Allied bombing campaigns.

To reflect all the moves above, I have around 14,500 tanks/afvs and almost 8,000 are in the Ukraine and 4,200 split between Western and Central Fronts. On the other hand, of my 120,000 guns, almost 40,000 are in Kalinin, Western or Central Fronts (and that includes most of my heavier guns).

Mobility will get me Kiev, artillery (and Sturmoviks) will get me Smolensk and Minsk.

edit - I'd forgotten I'd swapped Assault Fronts from Stalingrad to Central Front. Basically Stalingrad Front can grind its way forward as it can but its operational tempo will be set by events in the northern Ukraine.

On the subject of the OOB, that is my artillery stock. 65,000 of my guns are mortars or 76mm artillery and I have around 10,000 guns of 122mm or heavier.

Losses over the last 10 turns reflects the relative lack of sustained action. The Germans in particular are seeing a lot of previously wounded men coming back.

They also gain from a short term post-Stalingrad boost to their manpower recruitment.

[1] The deployment is linked to the rules for CPP gain. The basic rule is a unit gains 1 CPP for every 24 unused SMP (so at best 200/24 � 8 per turn).

If it is both unadjacent to the enemy and in a friendly held hex (at the start of the turn) this is tripled (so at best 600/24 � 25). Being linked to an assault front reduces the divisor to 12, so the gains are up to 16 and 50 respectively.

In effect, 2 turns of sat still where Bryansk Front is in that image = 100 CPP.

Almost all units by default get 200 SMP (strategic movement points) per turn so this is not altered by the usual MP calculation rules.

[2] Another neat move by the AI, I was imagining a massive pocket, all I got was a couple of regiments.

[3] I am still stalled in the south and want the armour of Bryansk Front to co-operate with SW Front in the Ukraine come the summer. Central Front is infantry heavy and that suits my expectations for any gains towards Smolensk and in the poor terrain of Bielorussia.

[4] This was by far the worst spring weather of the game � . No point extending my supply lines as I am still nursing my truck stocks, I'll have enough problems once the summer offensives commence (I hope).

< Message edited by loki100 -- 2/8/2021 5:00:10 PM >

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Post #: 96

RE: T100 - 2/8/2021 5:38:32 PM

MarechalJoffre

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Joined: 12/18/2014
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Thanks for the AAR, much appreciated.

Can't say I am too excited for the port over of the unnecessarily complicated air warfare system of WitW to the Eastern Front though.

Say what you want, that was completely undecipherable for me after tackling with it for 20 or so hours.

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Post #: 97

RE: T100 - 2/8/2021 8:36:16 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarechalJoffre

Thanks for the AAR, much appreciated.

Can't say I am too excited for the port over of the unnecessarily complicated air warfare system of WitW to the Eastern Front though.

Say what you want, that was completely undecipherable for me after tackling with it for 20 or so hours.

You can just use AI Air assist, it does reasonable job. In PBEM you might want to delve into air war bit more...but can actually have both sides to use Air Assist to avoid bother about 90%. Might still want to build some extra airfields and things like that.

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Post #: 98

RE: T100 - 2/8/2021 9:43:57 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarechalJoffre
Can't say I am too excited for the port over of the unnecessarily complicated air warfare system of WitW to the Eastern Front though.
Say what you want, that was completely undecipherable for me after tackling with it for 20 or so hours.

Players like you are exactly who we built the new AOG and Automated Air Assist system for. Take heart, it's MUCH easier to handle than anything that was in WITW.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 99

RE: T100 - 2/9/2021 12:30:31 PM

Pocman

Posts: 8
Joined: 2/9/2021
From: Germany
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Hello Developers
will the German Language be supported?

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Post #: 100

RE: T100 - 2/9/2021 4:22:19 PM

John B.

Posts: 3909
Joined: 9/25/2011
From: Virginia
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Hello and thank you for the excellant AAR and taking the time to explain various game components. I sold my soul to WiTPAE for a number of years but I'm tempted by this new version of WitE! A couple of questions (and I apologize if you answered these before. First, are the VP set up so that the Soviets are always directed to the Ukraine in 1943 or is there a random element to that. Second, same question on the off map events; are some of these scripted to always happen on the same date. For example, do the Germans always get a manpower bump post Stalingrad? Thanks!

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Post #: 101

RE: T100 - 2/9/2021 5:17:22 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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...

quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

Hello and thank you for the excellant AAR and taking the time to explain various game components. I sold my soul to WiTPAE for a number of years but I'm tempted by this new version of WitE! A couple of questions (and I apologize if you answered these before. First, are the VP set up so that the Soviets are always directed to the Ukraine in 1943 or is there a random element to that. Second, same question on the off map events; are some of these scripted to always happen on the same date. For example, do the Germans always get a manpower bump post Stalingrad? Thanks!

At the moment there are not many conditional/variable events, so the VP chart is fixed and some events are fairly hard coded in time and others move around a bit.

The extent that you as a player can ignore the VP schedule is one of those nice trade offs. If you are doing a wee bit better than history, you suddenly gain a lot of freedom. I played a Stalingrad-Berlin test (as the Axis) and my opponent had a good 1943 which gave him the option to pick and choose in 1944 where he went. In this game, I had a fairly disastrous (in VP terms) 1941 and am now paying the price - I need the bonuses so need to focus on the Ukraine where the 1943 targets are. A human opponent could exploit this, knowing where I need to focus, the AI isn't that subtle.

Some events are hard wired, with marginal variability. I think the way to read the Stalingrad event is even if 6 Army escapes its suddenly clear to the Nazi leadership that this war has turned against them and they'd better go to full mobilisation as a result (or that there is a glimmer of a chance for a final victory and its worth hurling everything into the pot).

Others start with an average occurance date and then get shifted back or forward depending on relative progress in the Theatre Boxes. So for eg, the Axis are scheduled to surrender in Tunis come May 43 (give or take a little bit of random variation). If they have done better in N Africa (& on balance they have in this game), that gets put back. In turn the invasion of Sicily goes back, if I recall the Allies don't enter Italy proper till November or December 1943. Now some of this is secondary/out of sight, but some of the later game Axis boosts come off the progress of the Allies so if that is slowed, the boosts come later (but on the other side their running losses are much less so more assets for the war vs the Soviets).

As I mentioned in the post, Finland is one of these. At the moment, we're trading gains and losses in the timescale but I'm building up a lead. Once I trigger the on-map conditions for Finland to start looking for the exit door, then that sequence of events can be sped up due my over-commitment into the Northern Theatre. So best to think that its still the static front between me and the Finns but all my build up is causing heavier losses in the low intensity warfare and undermining their will to carry on. When the main Karelian offensive opens, they collapse quicker.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 2/10/2021 8:07:58 AM >

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Post #: 102

RE: T100 - 2/9/2021 8:49:15 PM

John B.

Posts: 3909
Joined: 9/25/2011
From: Virginia
Status: offline

Thanks! I appreciate the explanations!!

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Post #: 103

RE: T100 - 2/9/2021 10:24:00 PM

Joel Billings

Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocman

Hello Developers
will the German Language be supported?

Not at release. Since WitE was localized, it's possible that eventually we will get WitE2 localized given there is a system in place we could update to help us with this. We wouldn't be inventing the wheel. However, it's a huge job.

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Post #: 104

RE: T100 - 2/10/2021 9:05:18 AM

Pocman

Posts: 8
Joined: 2/9/2021
From: Germany
Status: offline

Hi joel
Thanks for your quick answer. When wite came out it was in English and for me, for example, not playable because it is a monster and my school English was not enough to understand the game.
Well maybe the German manual is enough to understand wite2.
Best regards from Germany
Pocman

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Post #: 105

T104 - 2/10/2021 11:02:29 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
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From: Utlima Thule
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19 June 1943

This report takes the game up to T104

Background

23 May saw three Soviet Fronts go over to the offensive. Western Front tore open a 30 mile gap in the German lines [1] and elements of 5 Shock Army pushed 40 miles west.

As an aside, the red box is a paratroop drop, not the best of ideas but I was testing out the new UI functionality.

To the south, Central Front attacked around Bryansk but was hampered by the poor terrain.

In the northern Ukraine, Bryansk Front attacked but failed to break through [2].

As a side note, the interlinking of Voronezh Front (holding the actual front line) and SW Front in the rear is the ideal layout, SW Front builds CPP and Voronezh Front can build trenches and, relatively safely, hold the front line without too much commitment (= lower attrition losses).

By 5 June, German counter-attacks drove back the southern prong of Western Front and stopped Central Front. However, the Soviets were now only 20 miles east of Smolensk and Bryansk Front on the outskirts of Sumy.

The following week saw Western Front stall but Kalinin Front managed to clear it's northern flank. The pressure mounted on the German defenders as Central Front broke out and Bryansk Front made further gains.

T104

By 19 June, Kalinin Front had made substantial gains north of Smolensk while Western Front had managed to outflank the city to the north, even as its southern formations were hit by sustained counter-attacks.

Central Front took advantage of the Germans falling back but mostly was re-organising around Bryansk for the next major offensive.

To the south, Bryansk Front had stalled due to counter-attacks and being over-extended (that pocket to the north).

In the Donets Basin, the Axis forces were steadily falling back to their new defensive lines.

Losses � as to be expected I am losing the tank-tank exchange at this phase but I did destroy my first Panthers � or more likely they just broke down.

And the OOB � the linked discussion on the air war may explain why I have half my air force in the reserve. Some is lack of command capacity on map but mostly it is coping with the losses and the need to train my new pilots.

Other than that, no big changes � except the Germans have even more tanks than before and they are getting better.

My reserve contains the equivalent of a complete Combined Arms army (my emergency) and formations training up.

[1] This should be the standard tactic with a well rested Soviet offensive, as a result the armour can move through with no ZoC delays. If the attacks win at over 10-1 (hard to achieve but feasible) there is no combat delay (as long as the ZoC rules are met), reflecting a decisive quick victory. Its then party time.

[2] My goal is to create a salient around Sumy and the basis for an encirclement when SW Front strikes, I can't commit everything as I still have truck problems and also gain from successive blows by fresh (or refreshed) Fronts.

You can see the truck situation using the turn summary chart:

My units on average are 10% short of trucks and I have a minimal reserve. I can cope with this but do not want to make it worse, I also need to bring more armoured and artillery formations to the map.

So that is the opening stage, Western and Kalinin Fronts will deliver Smolensk in the next few turns well within the +6 time limit. I can then be opportunistic moving west in that sector, in theory Minsk is a 1944 target so any further gains are a bonus not a necessity.

Less relaxed about the Ukraine, Bryansk Front has stumbled into a hornets nest of counter-attacks (the beaten units shed their CPP and MP), the hope is that the Axis forces are being run down too. No scope to do anything further south but follow up - not least as my supply net there is now under strain. So all depends on the blow that SW Front is in a position to launch ... and if it can be sustained.

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Post #: 106

Digressing to the air war - 2/10/2021 11:17:33 AM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
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The Air War

Decided to split this into a separate post as the original was becoming rather long.

Red Lancer has just discussed the game mechanics so again I'll focus on their applicatoin.

Best I can say for the air war is the VVS is doing what I need it to do. The issue is (as below) my losses are almost unsustainable both in pilots and modern planes. I only train 225 pilots a week so the reality is an air group takes heavy losses, picks up untrained pilots and needs to go to the reserve to train them. If I don't have trained pilots, a unit will replace its losses with untrained pilots.

Fortunately I have a bit of a conveyor belt system in place around this but I am short of almost 1,000 pilots compared to the notional capacity of my air units. So losing 500+ a week is not really helping me turn this corner.

I have a number of Gds air groups (76 at this stage) that have a +5 morale bonus that in turn feeds into better experience levels. The process of gaining Gds air formations is completely different to WiTE1.

Now this shows the new CR and some of its functionality. Those of you with WiTE1/WiTW will recognise the basics but it has been reworked from first principles and is far more flexible now. Here I have selected just Gds air groups that are on the map or in the reserve (I have a few in the Northern Theatre but I can't touch them).

Note how many are in the reserve (SR) as I train up the replacement pilots � most of the formations in the reserve have been given obsolete I-series fighters to train on (my losses of modern stuff outweighs my production at this stage).

Last small item, I have some FB formations trained as ground attack not fighter formations (Bmr not Ftr). Over time these will increasingly use the rather nice Yak-9T but for the moment most are using types that have a rocket load out and I'm using those for interdiction rather than GS (they take more losses than my Il-2s in that role as they are not so well armoured). The interdiction is handy not so much for affecting troop movements (this is not France in June 1944) but as a further niggle on the German supply network.

I am using the heavier bombers of the Long Range Air Command to hit major rail yards behind the German lines. They have to be important depots and by damaging the rail yard I reduce the capacity of the depot. This is probably of more use in 1941 and 1942 when the Germans are moving forward but its a useful mission, and I lack much else to hit with those types of bombers.

In an earlier post, some one asked how do I know if GS pays off. Lets take one battle as it shows a lot of the dynamics. First worth noting I wasn't taking chances so this isn't a marginal instance (later on I have wins where its clear it was the GS that tipped the scales).

So as in WiTE1/W you have the option to expand the summary battle report and we can see the Axis had 1124 ground elements at the start of the battle and my airpower destroyed/damaged/disrupted 125.

Worth noting that WiTE2 also has a rule where having GS bombers present causes some extra disruption over and above any direct hits. This reflects the confusion and loss of command and control caused by having enemy bombers flying over your formations. And, of course, is another reason to stick to GS, even when it appears you are losing really badly (such as the Soviet player in 1941).

Remember the sequence of play here, GS is executed first and none of those elements will now take part in the rest of the battle (and of course do not count for determining who wins/losses).

So 10% sounds good, but I could have been bombing their catering corps? So if you want to know more, lets open the 'ground losses' tab. Those of you with WiTW will recognise this.

Well I did hit their catering corps but also things of much more value. The Germans didn't have many tanks and 7 of their Pzr IV are out of action already. My GS has also hit their artillery hard with 42 AT and artillery pieces out of action.

The artillery is particularly useful as the battle now proceeds in stages with the longer range stuff firing, then the final close assault. So those knocked out guns could have disrupted a lot of my infantry who instead reach the German positions in good order.

If you want to carry on poking around, look at the ground combat tab, this shows what German elements inflicted losses on me and at what range (and vice-versa). But here, lets stick to the air war.

As is clear, my fighters paid a price and they were pretty much the most modern machines in the VVS. But no match for the Fw-190s.

The final screen, if you are interested, breaks that down even more. The key variable is pilot skill � there is just no way at this stage of the war that I can match that.

As my losses start to come down (but not till 1944), I do start to have some very high skill formations as better planes, more wins and less LW interference allow me to build on my successes � at the moment a Soviet fighter pilot who wins an A2A interaction is probably only delaying their demise by a few weeks.

Also note the Soviet fighters are either in a close escort role to the Sturmoviks (escort) or have been called in as a form of CAP to engage directly with the German fighters (patrol). The patrol formations fly to the battle zone at a higher altitude which gives them a small advantage.

So, to go back to the question. That is how I know that GS is worth it, but equally that I am paying a high price. Those Soviet fighter formations will now have low morale and may even fill out with poor quality pilots � if they do that then they need to return to the reserve to train (the AI-assist routines will do this for you automatically). Fortunately I have their replacements already flying into the local airbases for next turn.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 2/10/2021 11:25:26 AM >

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Post #: 107

RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/10/2021 4:36:13 PM

John B.

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Loki,

Thanks for the detailed explanation of the air war. One question, are these resources that the Soviets/Germans could direct elsewhere as in produce more tanks or trucks etc... or is it a matter of the game gives you so many planes/pilots so you might as well use them even if they all get shot down because there is nothing else you can do with them?

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RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/10/2021 4:55:06 PM

loki100

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yes, all things being equal production is pretty much fixed. The industrial model is, as far as I recall, simpler than WiTE1 in that there is less player agency. The factory evacuation system is historical, so all that part of WiTE1 game lore drops out, you can't place your U2 factories where they will be captured etc.

Equally, in the main arms pts are less of an issue. So for named tanks/planes you have a fairly fixed chassis production and then a (not very) variable per turn production of the actual planes/tanks you use. Most of the rest is done to demand but with production caps (and most often the production caps are lower than likely demand).

So you have a few choices. One of the other testers is very organised and sets budgets for losses/turn and tries to work within that envelope. I tend to see these as assets to use for particular goals (which is also my mindset in WiTW). To be fair, his method works as well, so its different routes to much the same end point.

But yes, my pilots can't become infantry men (or the other way around), if I'm not watching my T34s blow up I don't get more Yak 1Bs in reward.

Even with my mindset, its notable I ended this game with much lower air losses than the VVS suffered historically.

At the moment my logic is that crudely I have modern planes for about 60% of the air groups, I'm losing 500+ pilots a turn and train 220 a turn. So the other 40% of the VVS becomes a huge training programme, take in untrained pilots, give them older planes, let the group hit 50+ experience and bring it to get slaughtered. If I can keep that flow more or less in balance, then that is my budget (so I will stop air operations for a given air army if I realise its losses are running much too bigh).

Its not till fairly late into 1944 that my front formations settle down as a stable set of air groups

edit - the other constraint comes from the fixed air bases and their relative location. With the exception of the LL P40s/P39s and Soviet Yak-9 D/DD, Soviet fighters are very short ranged. So on some sectors I built up the airbase capacity to bring in more but elsewhere its hard to get them into action in any case. As I push west, this becomes a bit of a larger issue, so for eg Eastern Poland is stuffed with airbases (thank you Hermann, they were for the German build up in 1941), Western Poland is bereft of the damn things

< Message edited by loki100 -- 2/10/2021 4:58:54 PM >

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Post #: 109

RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/10/2021 4:55:12 PM

MAS

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Thanks so much for your detailed AAR's and system explanations, Loki! I have some questions on the Turn Summary screenshot please:

1) In the OB Changes section, for afv's it shows Map -171, TBs 10. Does this mean that for the turn, after all replacements, reinforcements and losses, that your On Map forces lost (net) 171 afv's, while your Theater Box forces gained (net) 10 afv's?

2) For manpower, the Theater Box(es) is -7,607 men. Does this indicate a moderate or high intensity level of combat in the Northern or Finnish Theater Box, or is this just normal attrition up there?

3) The Logistics section of the same Turn Summary shows trucks in units as 260k / (273k). Does this mean your units contain 260k trucks but need 273k to operate at full supply and movement efficiency? If so, wouldn't that be 5% under TOE (260/273 = .95) instead of "My units on average are 10% short of trucks"? I'm not trying to quibble, just want to make sure I understand.

4) To the right of the trucks it shows Tons Rec 43512 (33539). Does this mean your combat units needed 33,539 tons of supply for the turn but actually received 43,512 tons? Why are there not similar #'s in parentheses for ammunition?

5) Fuel Tons Dif. I assume this means Tons differential received by units. Since it's a positive number, they received 71.8 tons more than required?

Thankyou,

Mark

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RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/10/2021 5:06:56 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAS

Thanks so much for your detailed AAR's and system explanations, Loki! I have some questions on the Turn Summary screenshot please:

1) In the OB Changes section, for afv's it shows Map -171, TBs 10. Does this mean that for the turn, after all replacements, reinforcements and losses, that your On Map forces lost (net) 171 afv's, while your Theater Box forces gained (net) 10 afv's?

2) For manpower, the Theater Box(es) is -7,607 men. Does this indicate a moderate or high intensity level of combat in the Northern or Finnish Theater Box, or is this just normal attrition up there?

3) The Logistics section of the same Turn Summary shows trucks in units as 260k / (273k). Does this mean your units contain 260k trucks but need 273k to operate at full supply and movement efficiency? If so, wouldn't that be 5% under TOE (260/273 = .95) instead of "My units on average are 10% short of trucks"? I'm not trying to quibble, just want to make sure I understand.

4) To the right of the trucks it shows Tons Rec 43512 (33539). Does this mean your combat units needed 33,539 tons of supply for the turn but actually received 43,512 tons? Why are there not similar #'s in parentheses for ammunition?

5) Fuel Tons Dif. I assume this means Tons differential received by units. Since it's a positive number, they received 71.8 tons more than required?

Thankyou,

Mark

Hi Mark

1) yes, exact, I am running down my tank stocks as losses>replacements (& that will get worse)

2) at this stage, the TB losses are just routine attrition, if I recall the combat intensity in Finland is low

3) yep, I'm sometimes a bit sloppy in my figures. You can get your trucks in unit>need and that is a safety net, so my 10% is a mental adjustment to that

4) again yes, not sure why that is not shown for the next 2 lines (you can see it in the full detailed production screen)

5) again yes.

Key is units set to supply priority 4 and with 100 CPP can receive and store > 100% of their notional need for supply/fuel/ammo.

So SW Front is sat there and its not just passive, each turn I stock up a bit more in the key formations. So when they are committed I have maybe another turn of in-unit resources than otherwise so just that bit less reliant on the depot system - so its an insurance against being cut off. Thats one reason why in the first turns, while its always a good idea to cut off the Pzrs, it makes little difference till they have expended their pre-war stocks.

Roger

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Post #: 111

RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/10/2021 6:23:24 PM

keitherson

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quote:

The process of gaining Gds air formations is completely different to WiTE1.

Oh come on now you can't just say things like that without elaborating

Also are there any new aircraft in WITE2? I see a few new ground elements and the new patrol and torpedo bomber categories for aircraft.

quote:

the Soviets have an enduring lack of heavy artillery up to early 1944

I'm not getting how exactly Armaments work in WITE2 I guess. Is there some hard coded limit on heavy artillery production like cav squads in WITE1 or is there another cause for this?

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Post #: 112

RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/10/2021 8:07:26 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: keitherson

quote:

The process of gaining Gds air formations is completely different to WiTE1.

Oh come on now you can't just say things like that without elaborating
Also are there any new aircraft in WITE2? I see a few new ground elements and the new patrol and torpedo bomber categories for aircraft.

quote:

the Soviets have an enduring lack of heavy artillery up to early 1944

I'm not getting how exactly Armaments work in WITE2 I guess. Is there some hard coded limit on heavy artillery production like cav squads in WITE1 or is there another cause for this?

ahem ...

what happens is that the AOG commands flip to Gds status on their historical dates (similar to the process for creating Gds armies), when that happens 3 air groups convert. If the AOG is in use then first choice is 3 air groups under its command (each can control 1-5 air groups), otherwise there is a bit of a random element as to which are chosen

quite a few new plane types, I think. Given I haven't had WiTE1 on my PC for at least 4 years this might be a bit wrong but you get Soviet naval patrol and torpedo formations and a new group of short/mid-range recon assets (one a variant of the Yak-7b, the other based on the Il-2 and originally used mainly as an artillery observer). I don't think there is much change to the main combat list, I think the late war LL stuff like a few P-47s and P-63s were in WiTE1? The Germans get some patrol planes and there maybe a few more exotic bits and pieces in their allied airforces.

In theory the production model is much the same but most of the artillery is produced up to a capped limit that reflects historical production allocations. The Soviets pretty much stopped heavy gun production in late 41 and only started again in 1943. In practice those hard wired limits are of far more importance than how much HI you have or how many arms pts you are producing.

The other cap is the production of new units. You can only have 14 cavalry corps and unless you manage near catastrophic loss of cavalry divisions, you won't be able to build any more than your start OOB + scripted reinforcements - combat lost. So, I think, cavalry squads are produced to need, but you can't generate that much demand for them.

From a play point of view, you can pretty much ignore the entire production system, it does its thing out of sight and produces equipment for the army. So I guess its a step back from some of the odder aspects of WiTE1 where you had more agency than really fitted your role? There are a lot of useful in-game screens and map modes and, to be honest, I rarely look at them.

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Post #: 113

RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/10/2021 8:48:54 PM

John B.

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From: Virginia
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Thanks! This is all very helpful and I may take the plunge and buy the game when it's released. I fear a very long newbie learning curve. :) Lol, I should apply to be a newbie beta tester to see how hard it is to learn the game to at least play against the AI!

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Post #: 114

RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/10/2021 8:56:30 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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we've put a fair bit of effort in the documentation to trying to ease getting into the game. There are sections where the 'why' and intent rather than the how are the focus and there is a section that simplifies the rules to the key issues. Add on a fair bit of AI-assistance, Red Lancer's next post will cover this but you hand over most of the air war and the logistics systems to the AI (& it does a decent enough job).

Given (I think) a much better UI, that a lot of systems are tucked out of sight (like the production model) its a bit easier to navigate.

The big challenge will be not to play it as if its WiTE1 with a new map and few bells and whistles. The temptation exists as clearly some the game architecture is immediately recognisable to previous GG games.

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Post #: 115

RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/11/2021 2:42:23 AM

DekeFentle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAS

4) To the right of the trucks it shows Tons Rec 43512 (33539). Does this mean your combat units needed 33,539 tons of supply for the turn but actually received 43,512 tons? Why are there not similar #'s in parentheses for ammunition?

No, this means you received 33539 tons and needed 43512. Any insertion of a comma into supply numbers, logistic pools and or OB changes is strictly verboten!

Also altitude, no commas allowed there either.

< Message edited by DekeFentle -- 2/11/2021 2:51:09 AM >

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Post #: 116

RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/11/2021 6:04:03 AM

ErickRepie

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Our developer who art in Matrix
Hallowed be thy name
give us today, date and month this title be released
and lead us not into temptation ...

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RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/11/2021 11:59:28 AM

MAS

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Loki indicated the opposite (43512 received, 33539 needed). He went on to say that his HQ was building up excess supply so it had insurance against being temporarily cut off from supply. Final Arbitration please?

Look mom, no commas in my numbers! But couldn't we at least have some commas in the 6 and 7 figures?

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RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/11/2021 12:38:43 PM

loki100

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well I have access to a secret document (aka the manual) and for the main production screen, the explanation is below. Now I can map those numbers between the production screen and the turn summary screen so I stand by my interpretation.

No idea if the comma issue can be solved, it may be trivial depending on where the data is stored and how to convert it for display or it maybe a significant programming effort to achieve.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by loki100 -- 2/11/2021 12:40:27 PM >

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RE: Digressing to the air war - 2/11/2021 3:53:47 PM

DekeFentle

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I sit corrected. My intent was to again point out the need/desire to present data in a more friendly/readable format. (136900 versus 136,900)

quote:

No idea if the comma issue can be solved, it may be trivial depending on where the data is stored and how to convert it for display or it maybe a significant programming effort to achieve.

Thank you and it would perhaps be wise for someone to definitively ascertain the triviality or significant effort involved to present number data in a more familiar format. I would certainly vote "Hell No" if the effort is significant to the extent it would add to the timeline. "Hell Yes" on the other hand, if trivial more accurately delineates the effort. I greatly appreciate the team's work and empathize with the astounding complexity of the task, thank you again.

< Message edited by DekeFentle -- 2/12/2021 9:36:08 AM >

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