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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 3/31/2021 9:34:15 PM   
Jajusha


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I'm not sold yet on moving the bombers forward.

Lost a full squad of bombers on a ground support run due to them flying with no cover (lost 40 bombers to 0 soviets). It's my own fault for not checking the fighter coverage sure, but it will be easier on both my trucks and my attention span if i leave them behind and just at the limit of their own coverage

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 3/31/2021 9:39:22 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jajusha

I'm not sold yet on moving the bombers forward.

Lost a full squad of bombers on a ground support run due to them flying with no cover (lost 40 bombers to 0 soviets). It's my own fault for not checking the fighter coverage sure, but it will be easier on both my trucks and my attention span if i leave them behind and just at the limit of their own coverage


OUCH!

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Post #: 62
RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 3/31/2021 10:15:46 PM   
Nix77

 

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The truck issue is a sneaky one, really hard to keep track if your motor pool is healthy or not.

I guess forward bombers wouldn't really eat trucks if they are sitting on a depot, but I think you may not want them to be hogging any extra freight from your forward depots?

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/1/2021 5:13:24 AM   
Firewire9452

 

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After a few days of practice, I was able to move from 2400 kills w/ 300 casualties to 4000 kills and 140 casualties. I suspect this could be improved by harvesting a few more bomber air bases in the marsh. After 5-10 tests of the same ADs, the outcomes have varied from 200 casualties/3700 kills to 130 casualties/4050 kills.

Without going into all the details, it's really important to kill close fighter bases in the first phase of air execution (very high priority); mid range fighter bases in the second phase (high priority); and then harvest bomber/recon bases in the third phase (normal priority). In AGN, that means the fighter bases running from Kaunas to Kedainiai to Siaulia to Liepaja in tier 1, Riga and Daugavpils in tier 2, and then bomber bases in T3. Riga and Daugavpils sometimes launch their fighters and destroy unescorted bombers, and might not be worth it. In AGC, this means all the fighter bases W of the line running through Brest, Orany, and Kaunas in the first tier of runs, fighter bases E of that line and Berezino in the second tier, and then harvesting the bomber/recon bases in tier 3. In AGS, this means tier 1 covers all fighter bases W of the line connecting Kovel, Lutsk, Dubno, Brody, Kurovichi, Stanislav, Kolomiya, Chernovtsy, Beltsy, Kishinev, and Bolgrad; tier 2 covers all fighters bases east of that line connecting where the Yuzhny Bug canal hits the Black Sea to Zhitomir, and tier 3 harvests all the recon/bomber bases W of that line. In AGS, this means grouping a few bases in a single AD SW of Lvov, near Brody, and near Ivangorod (not optimal since it's fighters and recon; there might be a better grouping) because you'll hit 30 ADs. Also, I've found that moving Alytus to AGN and moving Kovel to AGC helps free resources in AGS, where there are more planes to harvest.

Loadout matters a lot. Non-fighters should have the maximum number of bombs. This has a substantial impact on planes destroyed. I haven't experimented with equipping fighters with 50kg bombs, which might help free bomber mileage for further runs or by reducing operational losses.

Altitude matters some. I experimented in the RTL scenario rerunning air execution at different altitudes. It looked like 6000 was marginally better than 5000 or 7000 (but that might be random dice rolls). The manual says that below 5000 feet heavily increases operational losses, but avoids flak. Since operational losses are 12 times flak losses on T1, I avoided flying below 5000. I also checked 10,000 and 15,000. I noticed a significant decline (10-20%) in kills, but didn't notice a significant chance in friendly casualties. If anything, operational losses might have been a bit higher. The manual says that bomb accuracy decreases with altitude, so I'd avoid these higher altitudes on T1.

I bombed only on D1, and twice for Bialystok, Alytus and Odessa. I might remove the double bomb on Alytus.

I haven't attempted to bomb near Kiev or the line from the Lepel-Ulla-Orsha triangle through Mogilev-Bykhov. There appear to be approximately 310 and 450 planes, respectively, in those areas. Similarly, Kacha (adjacent to Sevastopol) has 120 planes on a single hex. I'm worried that the operational losses, the risk of additional air combat without escorts, and extra fatigue on the LW will not be worth it for T2.

I believe that I can optimize this more by looking at the supplies and capacity of air bases closest to the front and moving bombers up, if there is spare capacity and supplies/ammo/fuel and frontline bases. This would reduce mileage flown by the bombers, which seems to be the main driver behind operational losses. But I haven't tried this. I haven't found anything in the manual about whether rebasing on a turn reduces combat effectiveness (like movement for ground units or changing leaders).

PS: The main X-factor in results is Odessa. Sometimes Odessa's planes activate and destroy another 40-50 bombers and reduce your kills by another 120. Those dead bombers can't bomb other fields later, which reduces later kills in lower priority runs. I've tried to address this by making Odessa very high priority instead of high priority. I'm not sure whether this helps, or I just got 3 random dice rolls that were favorable. I'm working on a solution, but haven't found one yet. I use Sculeni (205, 201) as the staging base, which means Odessa is just outside fighter range, even with drop tanks. I've tried rebasing IV. Fliegerkorps, JG 77 to bases closer to Sculeni, but they lack supply. I suspect there's a way to move fighters, add drop tanks, and put Odessa first on the h priority list to guarantee fighter escorts, but I haven't found it yet. It would probably improve the consistent of these numbers quite a bit.

< Message edited by Firewire9452 -- 4/1/2021 5:49:45 AM >

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/1/2021 6:12:23 AM   
Nix77

 

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Nice opening post FireWire!

You can actually reach Riga with escorts if they have drop tanks and stage at Rautenberg (or get moved to a close enough airfield).

I'd call Daugavapils, Minsk, Ovruch, Zhitomir, Pervomaysk and Odessa out of bounds if you want to be safe with your bombers. You get really bad trade-offs there if you're unlucky. Vinnitsa and Ivangorod can be covered with escorts with drops tanks so that gap is safe.

I'm sure you can get good results with moving bombers closer to bombing targets, they just accumulate air miles when they transfer to my knowledge?

I haven't experimented with partial escorts, but I guess you could reduce the risk of bomber losses by having partial escorts on longer sorties? I've seen many unescorted bombers getting hit on their way home, I'm not sure if partial escorts would help on those air combats if they happen in escort range?

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 4/1/2021 6:15:25 AM >

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/1/2021 7:56:36 AM   
loki100


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here's a question.

These optimised strategies burn off your airmiles so your GS is much less. Now so is the Soviet response (& you are not using GS on T1 as a battle winning multiplier).

But there is a huge difference, Soviet planes hit on the ground = most pilots escape, Soviet planes shot down during GS = pilot losses.

Or in other words, while in WiTE1 clearly an endlessly optimised T1 airbase bombing was deemed essential, I'm not so sure in #2.

With that in mind - 2 tables ... air losses in the air phase (off some pretty broad brush AD) and in the ground phase:





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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/1/2021 8:40:30 AM   
Speedysteve

 

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My poor airforce! What have you done to them? Uncle Joe is very very unhappy with you

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/1/2021 9:01:03 AM   
Nix77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

here's a question.

These optimised strategies burn off your airmiles so your GS is much less. Now so is the Soviet response (& you are not using GS on T1 as a battle winning multiplier).

But there is a huge difference, Soviet planes hit on the ground = most pilots escape, Soviet planes shot down during GS = pilot losses.

Or in other words, while in WiTE1 clearly an endlessly optimised T1 airbase bombing was deemed essential, I'm not so sure in #2.

With that in mind - 2 tables ... air losses in the air phase (off some pretty broad brush AD) and in the ground phase:



I included my fighters airmiles at the start of the ground turn in the picture, they don't look that bad. I think the squadrons with drop tanks might have had 20+, while surprisingly many were at 0 miles? Need to do turn 1 ground support optimization next!

Also a note that since the Luftwaffe is really strong on Turn 1 Day 1, you can actually reduce the amount of escorts needed on sorties. I experimented with 10 fighters at one point and they seemed to do OK. This would reduce the airmiles even more to save some for GS.

EDIT: playing around with logistics at the moment, automated air assist is doing a good job with advancing the Luftflottes! Luftflotte 1 fighters got transferred between Riga and Pskov for T4, and transports loaded their airfields with freight, very nice!

EDIT2: you have to be careful with the air assist though! It moved StG 2 just beside an enemy hex near Pripyat, with no friendly units in 50 mile radius :P


< Message edited by Nix77 -- 4/1/2021 9:07:39 AM >

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/1/2021 9:51:46 AM   
mrblonde1


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How can I reduce the amount of escorts needed on sorties?

< Message edited by mrblonde1 -- 4/1/2021 9:54:29 AM >

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/1/2021 11:43:20 AM   
Nix77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrblonde1


How can I reduce the amount of escorts needed on sorties?


Change the "Req AC (xx/yy)" on a directive, first number is mission aircraft (bombers), second is escorts.

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/1/2021 3:13:05 PM   
mrblonde1


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Thanks!

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/1/2021 5:22:48 PM   
TheFerret

 

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Or you could change escort percentage in the air doctrine screen for all ground attack directives and leave it on "auto" in the individual directives. For example, I've had OK results setting it to 25% for the T1 air campaign.

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/2/2021 4:11:49 PM   
hmota

 

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I was trying how to best hit Soviet airfields in T1 in Road to Leningrad scenario.
Best result up to now looks like this, I set up 10 Ground attack at the airfields Alytus, Orany, Vilnius, Liepaja, Ventspils, Panevezys, AF Gruzdziai, Siauliai, Kaunas, Kedainiai

I sended one LB group to each attack, with fighter from JG54 to all of them, adjusted altitude 6000, high priority for fighter bases, moderate for LB bases, one attack per AF, only on D1...
I was trying also to lower the amount of GA by increasing the area for hit Alytus + Orany, and Siauliai + AF Grzdziai at once, but never ger better result than this one...





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< Message edited by hmota -- 4/2/2021 4:17:50 PM >

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/4/2021 10:59:47 AM   
Jango32

 

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I have a few questions for the Axis side as a complete beginner to the manual air war.

1. Is it best to use area size 0 when ground attacking an airfield hex?

2. In order to escort the bombers, should the JGs conduct ground support missions on turn 1 or should they be part of the ground attack box forces? If the former, what HQ should they follow?

3. How many KGs should participate in the same air directive - is it okay to mix and match multiple AOGs in the directive or should each directive consist of only one AOG?

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/4/2021 11:35:54 AM   
loki100


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1 - it really depends, I tend to give each major sector a single AD and let the routines sort it out, so my boxes are 4*4 or similar and capture the airbases I want to hit, others would argue for an AD for each air base

2 - add the fighter AOGs to the airbase missions (or, probably better, leave it to the auto allocation rules)

3 - as above it depends a bit on how obsessive your AD structure is. For mine, I can just let it all happen (& it works pretty well), if you have a lot of individual missions then you are going to have to allocate very precisely.

now I personally think its best to use the auto-assign routine to the airbase bombing as you can then re-use those fighters & bombers for the GS missions in the ground phase - where you can come near to doubling the Soviet losses and this time actually kill off their pilots too - or in other words the airbase bombing is merely the opening gambit, its not like in WiTE1.

If you are using the AI-assist, then ignore all that, the set ADs will do you fine, maybe tweak a little.

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/4/2021 5:09:46 PM   
Jango32

 

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I've managed to destroy a little over 2000 Soviet aircraft for 61 Axis planes lost, though I am looking for constructive criticism and ideas to improve these air directives in the attached save file.

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/7/2021 7:16:28 AM   
Hardradi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

I have a few questions for the Axis side as a complete beginner to the manual air war.

1. Is it best to use area size 0 when ground attacking an airfield hex?

2. In order to escort the bombers, should the JGs conduct ground support missions on turn 1 or should they be part of the ground attack box forces? If the former, what HQ should they follow?

3. How many KGs should participate in the same air directive - is it okay to mix and match multiple AOGs in the directive or should each directive consist of only one AOG?


Made over 1000 kills with 61 losses on my side. This includes two broad recon directives and a naval patrol directive.

The question is, are my additional 34 Ju-88 bomber losses worth ~300 enemy kills.

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RE: Not bad turn 1 air - 4/8/2021 10:48:34 AM   
Mehring

 

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I can't find this in the manual. If it's not there, it should be.
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

...
3. But the Air Directives are executed in the order in which you define them.
...




with the very important proviso, that this is weighted by priority. So the missions execute in priority order first and then in the order you created them:




< Message edited by Mehring -- 4/8/2021 10:50:59 AM >


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