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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 5:58:55 PM   
Kokubokan

 

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DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY PAMPHLET NO. 20-290, JULY 1951. TERRAIN FACTORS IN THE RUSSIAN CAMPAIGN.

http://dracobooks.com/Terrain-Factors-in-the-Russian-Campaign.html

< Message edited by Kokubokan -- 4/23/2021 6:01:27 PM >

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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 6:40:34 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kokubokan

I don't know a fighter pilot who has subsequently flown a transport/recon plane. Do you know any of them?



You asked this earlier.
All pilots were trained on Junkers to get their A pilot status, by C class and ready for first posting they were rated to fly Do17 He 11 Junkers 52, Arado 66, the Gotha 145 and the Arado 76, heavier aircraft like the Junkers W33 and W44 and the twin-engined Focke Wulf Fw 58, and obsolescent combat types such as the He 51, the Ar 65 and the Hs 123.



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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 6:49:38 PM   
Kokubokan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kokubokan

I don't know a fighter pilot who has subsequently flown a transport/recon plane. Do you know any of them?



You asked this earlier.
All pilots were trained on Junkers to get their A pilot status, by C class and ready for first posting they were rated to fly Do17 He 11 Junkers 52, Arado 66, the Gotha 145 and the Arado 76, heavier aircraft like the Junkers W33 and W44 and the twin-engined Focke Wulf Fw 58, and obsolescent combat types such as the He 51, the Ar 65 and the Hs 123.





That doesn't answer my question.

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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 6:52:51 PM   
malyhin1517


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kokubokan

I don't know a fighter pilot who has subsequently flown a transport/recon plane. Do you know any of them?

There were such cases when the pilots, after being wounded, could no longer fly in fighters and flew in transport or reconnaissance aircraft. But of course this was not a frequent occurrence!

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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 6:58:49 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kokubokan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kokubokan

I don't know a fighter pilot who has subsequently flown a transport/recon plane. Do you know any of them?



You asked this earlier.
All pilots were trained on Junkers to get their A pilot status, by C class and ready for first posting they were rated to fly Do17 He 11 Junkers 52, Arado 66, the Gotha 145 and the Arado 76, heavier aircraft like the Junkers W33 and W44 and the twin-engined Focke Wulf Fw 58, and obsolescent combat types such as the He 51, the Ar 65 and the Hs 123.





That doesn't answer my question.


Your question shows you dont understand how pilots were trained in the LW.

It point out you dont get to be a fighter pilot until after you are qualified on recon and bombers, what do you think those not passing C and becomming fighter pilots get to fly?.Kurt Wüsthoff is an example of the german system of being recon first, and then becoming a fighter pilot, so was Ernst Udet.


< Message edited by Hanny -- 4/23/2021 7:11:25 PM >

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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 7:18:31 PM   
Kokubokan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: malyhin1517

There were such cases when the pilots, after being wounded, could no longer fly in fighters and flew in transport or reconnaissance aircraft. But of course this was not a frequent occurrence!


Of course, but they were very rare cases.

That does answer my question. Thanks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
All pilots were trained on Junkers to get their A pilot status...


Hummm...






Source: Fledgling Eagles. Luftwaffe Training Aircraft 1933-1945. Barry Ketley. Classic Publications, 2009.



< Message edited by Kokubokan -- 4/23/2021 7:24:43 PM >

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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 7:28:50 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kokubokan



Source: Fledgling Eagles. Luftwaffe Training Aircraft 1933-1945. Barry Ketley. Classic Publications, 2009.




https://www.militaryissue.com/mobile/Luftwaffe-Training-Aircraft/productinfo/706825/

The often unseen and unrecognized element in aerial warfare, is that of training the pilots and crews, yet it its value is beyond calculation. In this fundamental role, a wide variety of aircraft were used by the Luftwaffe, with trainee pilots progressing from simpler, older machines, such as the Klemm 35, the Focke-Wulf Fw 44 and the Bücker 131, to the more sophisticated Arado Ar 66, the Gotha Go 145 and the Arado Ar 76, as well as heavier aircraft like the Junkers W33 and W44.

So thats two books with you become rated at recon and may end up as a fighter, ill add this as its interesting, only ftr pilots were trained to fly just by instruments, which helps explain the high loss rate of the LW.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 4/23/2021 7:41:23 PM >

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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 7:44:10 PM   
Kokubokan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny



So thats two books with you become rated at recon and may end up as a fighter.





But not the other way around, which was my first question.

malyhin1517 has understood my question. You don't seem to understand the question. No problem.


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Post #: 38
RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 8:07:18 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kokubokan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny



So thats two books with you become rated at recon and may end up as a fighter.





But not the other way around, which was my first question.

malyhin1517 has understood my question. You don't seem to understand the question. No problem.



I understood you asked a question that ought not be asked, and if you had read the book you used would have know the answer, including page 67 which references Junkers as the standard trainer in 1936.


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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 8:12:59 PM   
Kokubokan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

only ftr pilots were trained to fly just by instruments


Nope.




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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 8:21:10 PM   
Kokubokan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

if you had read the book you used would have know the answer, including page 67 which references Junkers as the standard trainer in 1936.




Nothing you say appears on page 67 of my book.


Repeat:



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Post #: 41
RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 9:06:06 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kokubokan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

if you had read the book you used would have know the answer, including page 67 which references Junkers as the standard trainer in 1936.




Nothing you say appears on page 67 of my book.


Repeat:



Odd, its in every one but yours, its also in other books, would a list of them help?.
Page 67 para 3.

Its even online https://www.ww2-weapons.com/pilot-training-of-the-luftwaffe/


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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 9:15:43 PM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kokubokan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

only ftr pilots were trained to fly just by instruments


Nope.





Correct, thats the Air warfare school course, none of that involved landing by instruments, thats the advanced course ( fighter conversion schools) for Ftr i mentioned, teh last 4 months of training before posting, its here that the LW typicaly lost 20 30 pilots from an intake of 120 to accidents.

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Post #: 43
RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 9:42:53 PM   
Kokubokan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


Odd, its in every one but yours, its also in other books, would a list of them help?.



More than a list I want proof. ¿Screenshot? ¿Photo? ¿ANY?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Its even online https://www.ww2-weapons.com/pilot-training-of-the-luftwaffe/




Only Junkers aircraft references on that link:




quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

All pilots were trained on Junkers to get their A pilot status

Junkers as the standard trainer in 1936.




< Message edited by Kokubokan -- 4/24/2021 6:14:07 AM >

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RE: Trucks... - 4/23/2021 9:49:39 PM   
Kokubokan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


Correct, thats the Air warfare school course,


Nope. Thats is the Blindflugschule, only instrumental flight course.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

none of that involved landing by instruments


¿Source?


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RE: Trucks... - 4/24/2021 7:33:39 AM   
Hanny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kokubokan


More than a list I want proof.


Ok, proof it is then, next time try treading your own source, and refrain from asking question like how many kings subsequently go on to become Princes?.


https://www.pdfdrive.com/fledgling-eagles-luftwaffe-training-aircraft-1933-1945-classic-colours-e156919505.html
Free download of the book.


Page 67 para 3, snipped to show junkers as standard training airframe in 1940.

in early 1940 the front commanders began requisitioning the junkers 52, which had already become the standard training machine in C schools

Page 11
In most cases training schools were forced to function with a bewildering variety of machines, including captured enemey.An indication of the diversity of machines used in primary and basic training in the early war years is given below is given below, hence the chart you posted. It then goes on, it is not possible to list every aircraft type used in training schools.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 4/24/2021 8:12:43 AM >

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Post #: 46
RE: Trucks... - 4/24/2021 9:08:00 AM   
Kokubokan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Ok, proof it is then, next time try treading your own source, and refrain from asking question like how many kings subsequently go on to become Princes?.


https://www.pdfdrive.com/fledgling-eagles-luftwaffe-training-aircraft-1933-1945-classic-colours-e156919505.html
Free download of the book.


Page 67 para 3, snipped to show junkers as standard training airframe in 1940.

in early 1940 the front commanders began requisitioning the junkers 52, which had already become the standard training machine in C schools

Page 11
In most cases training schools were forced to function with a bewildering variety of machines, including captured enemey.An indication of the diversity of machines used in primary and basic training in the early war years is given below is given below, hence the chart you posted. It then goes on, it is not possible to list every aircraft type used in training schools.



But let's see ... that's the book I have!!! If I'm putting screenshots of that book from minute one!!!



Source: Fledgling Eagles. Luftwaffe Training Aircraft 1933-1945. Barry Ketley. Classic Publications, 2009.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Page 67 para 3, snipped to show junkers as standard training airframe in 1940.

in early 1940 the front commanders began requisitioning the junkers 52, which had already become the standard training machine in C schools


That doesn't justify your wrong claim:

All pilots were trained on Junkers to get their A pilot status.
Junkers as the standard trainer in 1936


Sorry, your claim doesn't hold up. Take it on. Perhaps you dont understand how pilots were trained in the LW.


Here I leave it. We have already made this thread too dirty.

< Message edited by Kokubokan -- 4/24/2021 9:51:23 AM >

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RE: Trucks... - 4/24/2021 4:30:04 PM   
Hanny


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No claim was wrong. There is nothing in the book i linked to contradict the claim, thats just you not knowing what airframes were used for what and when.

https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/w34/tech.html
Junker w33
and up to the end of World War II was the German Air Force's standard instrument and navigation trainer.

Heres a pilots first hand explanation of the same on slide3. The Life of a German Luftwaffe Pilot
https://prezi.com/sepuqy6pqelh/the-life-of-a-german-luftwaffe-pilot/

20024 used as trainers, 1100 still in service in 44, junkers won the contract to provide the LW standard trainer at the same time it won a LW contract for 1200 JU52 for front line bombers pre SCW.

Agreed, moving on.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 4/24/2021 4:35:09 PM >

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RE: Trucks... - 4/25/2021 10:25:55 AM   
Kryger68

 

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Status: offline 		Sorry ... but what is the difference between pool and depot?

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RE: Trucks... - 4/25/2021 10:43:59 AM   
Jeff_Ahl

 

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Status: offline 		How the hell did this thread go from trucks to Luftwaffe training programs? Suggestion, start a mew thread about thr subject instead.

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RE: Trucks... - 7/20/2021 5:10:52 PM   
squatter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

as before, there is a huge amount influencing what is shown in the pool in any one turn and the system looks to keep some reserve simply to make it work. The tables below all key off the active truck numbers.

As you can see its all over the place as I advance, create new depots, alter my depot system and also the interaction between truck losses and what I capture.

Given this is T11, I'm using 45,000 of my 323,000 unit trucks in the supply system. Not exactly a surprise given where some of my units are deployed.








Resurrecting this thread as I attempt to get my head around the truck system properly for the first time.

1 - I heartily agree that truck status feedback could really do with improvement given its importance to the long game!

2 - I'm quoting you here Loki as I'd like to know where the numbers in your screen shot are hidden in the UI?
EDIT: I see these are replicated in the turn summary, but from where are you posting these grabs?

3 - What would be amazing would be a brief guide on how to track the status of your truck system, what are the red flags to look out for, how to spot problems coming down the road with your truck numbers, what is an excessive number of trucks to be taken from units to be used in the supply system, etc. I realise this might be asking a lot.





< Message edited by squatter -- 7/20/2021 5:17:03 PM >

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RE: Trucks... - 7/20/2021 5:53:06 PM   
carlkay58

 

Posts: 8650
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Status: offline 		The top items come from the Production screen - right hand side.

The second T11 is from the event log near the end of the section dealing with Freight.

I am not sure on the third T11 posting.

My general aim as the Axis is to maintain a Vehicle pool of 10K+. It is difficult to do deliberately as much of the truck situation is out of the Axis player's hands. The main tool the Axis has is to shorten the supply lines shown with the '8' key on the map. I monitor this every turn and try to eliminate the lengthy red lines as much as possible. I do this through depot creation and manipulating the depot priorities. Make sure you check your rear areas for the supply lines - many Axis players forget about the supply situation deailing with the Rumanian and Hungarian frozen units. This is also where your air units may be using trucks too.


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RE: Trucks... - 7/20/2021 6:00:22 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

...



Resurrecting this thread as I attempt to get my head around the truck system properly for the first time.

1 - I heartily agree that truck status feedback could really do with improvement given its importance to the long game!

2 - I'm quoting you here Loki as I'd like to know where the numbers in your screen shot are hidden in the UI?
EDIT: I see these are replicated in the turn summary, but from where are you posting these grabs?

3 - What would be amazing would be a brief guide on how to track the status of your truck system, what are the red flags to look out for, how to spot problems coming down the road with your truck numbers, what is an excessive number of trucks to be taken from units to be used in the supply system, etc. I realise this might be asking a lot.



1/2 - the tables come from 3 places. You can see the veh/unit etc data either in the turn summary charts or the production screen (on the rhs). The trucks used/captured lurks in the logistics report (36.9.1 - its at the end of the freight section), you can losses (both sides) in the losses chart (but those are just outright destroyed).

3 - I think its too early to say to be honest. Incl AARs in the beta forum we have a grand total of 3 reported from 1941-45 (all Soviet vs AI), we had a handful of axis games to mid-42 (HtH and vs AI), we now have a few outright axis wins in 1942 or 1943 (vs AI).

There are some unavoidable issues. The Soviet player will face increasing problems from late 42 to early 44. LL production is too low, this is not just for the Tank/Mech Corps, you'll find that rocket brigades/divisions are a way around the enduring artillery shortage. Great - but they then want trucks. This bottleneck eases by mid-44.

I think a German player will face a 20% shortage vs unit need by the end of April 42, simply the impact of the winter supply effort. Oddly the better they did in 1941, the worse this will be (this feeds into the discussions of how to handle the winter, how far east can you retain even a vestige of supply etc).

So the leap from say the T11 data there to T44 is too multi-varial to say what I reported is good or bad. Not least German players are very unwilling to demotorise their Pzr/Mot divisions so that is one possible tool that is just not exploited.

The other interpretation problem is that trucks are a means to a purpose. Lots of trucks and a stalled front along the Dnepr in 1941 is not a good situation, a real shortage and the vestiges of the Red Army heading back to Gorki is a pretty good trade off.

If you aren't, then read the post game discussion in Glorious Ruse's AAR, I think it points to the real challenge of globally interpreting these numbers at the moment (& that is before you get into the various asset management tools).


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RE: Trucks... - 7/20/2021 7:50:55 PM   
squatter

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Loki, appreciate the thoughts.

I have to agree strongly with earlier posters that in order for us all to better monitor and track what's happening with trucks it would be excellent that there was a one-stop solution screen where all the relevant info was collated. Would also be great to have truck tracking in the metrics (total trucks/unit trucks being used by supply/captured trucks etc)

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