RE: What To Do With Russia

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: What To Do With Russia

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> WarPlan >> RE: What To Do With Russia

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/21/2021 8:08:42 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

What is funny is that there is exactly the same debate in WITE2:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5078571&mpage=1&key=�

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 31

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/21/2021 8:16:33 PM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline

In my eyes, and this is just my eyes...the Russians units are not too weak once they stop the Germans...they just need to slow the German advance so that they can get enough units to get there.

They have few issues once the Germans are stopped. Harry made that perfectly clear...the Germans will get wiped out due to numbers.
Numbers >>>>> than experience.
I just dont' want to see a Russian unit in every hex on the map.
I am pondering more weak units to start or more reserve units. Just finding the balance is the key.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 32

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/21/2021 8:21:43 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

the Russians units are not too weak once they stop the Germans...they just need to slow the German advance so that they can get enough units to get there.

I definitely agree with you on this point.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 33

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/21/2021 8:37:40 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

the Russians units are not too weak once they stop the Germans...they just need to slow the German advance so that they can get enough units to get there.

Perhaps increase the defense of Infantry Rifle Corps to 4 instead of 3 then.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 34

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/21/2021 8:46:26 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

But you know with the latest patch, my opponent has disbanded all Red Air Force planes and, so far, I have identified 13 armor corps in the Red Army.
It is difficult...

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 35

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 12:19:06 AM

*Lava*

Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline

Well, if you disband all Commie aircraft, cavalry and mech units on day 1, it will give you 3000 production points with 1939 tank corps running at a cost of 360 PPs. That will give you 8 tank corps that will show up March 19, 1940. Add in the 3 tank corps on the ground and you have 11 in total.

Disbanding only the Soviet Air Force results in a stockpile of 1445.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 36

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 2:41:49 AM

Harrybanana

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Okay but that is explaining the huge number of Axis Armour and Mechanized units. Now, you will not anymore garrison the entire Axis army just after France to build this amount.
You should take this into consideration before saying Russia is too weak.

By Garrisoning and then ungarrisoning the German Infantry Stjeand lost about 800 production. Had he not done so he would have had more armour in 1942, not less.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 37

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 2:46:15 AM

battlevonwar

Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline

HarryBanana,

He got a lot better between his earlier games and the rules are constantly changing. I watched how MagicMissile dealt with him and how you dealt with him in your AARs(we didn't make AARs apparently). He became so aggressive with the Allies to the point of insane. I had a hard time taking France and I gave him a run for his money nearly killing 2 Panzers in Belgium in our mirror game(he came up with a gamy little Belgian Blitz that was quite clever).

No matter what if the Manpower Rules hasn't changed it's not easy for Germans themselves or even the Italians to play the long game. If you can draw the game out.

Facing 10 Corps landing in France, Belgium-Holland, Italy, Norway, Denmark, etc... Again and again with the amount of Production and Manpower the Allies get you are hard pressed to win the game. If you're an adept Allied Player.
Now if the Amphibious Rules changed as we we're asking Alvaro that would of changed things 'some'... Still impossible for the Axis to be everywhere and conquer the USSR.

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 9/22/2021 2:48:49 AM >

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 38

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 2:51:23 AM

Harrybanana

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

I have taken it into account.
Keep in mind I was the Axis and I lost and I think they are too weak and the Allies are to strong.

You are correct, I will not garrison and will attack in 1941 NOT 1942 so I will have much less armor.

I think our current game is a bit of an anomaly. Because you got screwed by the Rule Change you didn't launch Barbarossa until 1942. You also got shafted near Leningrad when my units were not our of supply when they should have been. Actually I think the fact that even with these events you did better attacking in 42 (for example capturing Moscow) than the Germans historically did attacking in 41 shows just how strong the Axis is.

I am beginning to believe that the game favours the attacker too much. First the Germans in 41 and 42 and then the Allies from 43 to 44. Maybe a solution would be to decrease the OPs of all infantry by 1 and Armour/mech by 2. Just a thought.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 39

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 2:55:43 AM

battlevonwar

Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline

A good choice to game balance then. . . Stationing 8 or 9 German Corp in Italy was really a pain and lots of Italian Garrisons in early 1941.

The USSR was always tough to balance but again if you let Axis Armor tech up and XP up there really isn't much hope against that. You have to keep her modest and that takes sapping those Armor units down to nothing in France.

If the Entire Front Collapses in '41 the game is over. The Allies were misplayed. The Russians can defend against a moderately strong Axis but not a Monstrosity.

(in reply to Nirosi)

Post #: 40

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 3:00:09 AM

Harrybanana

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

In my eyes, and this is just my eyes...the Russians units are not too weak once they stop the Germans...they just need to slow the German advance so that they can get enough units to get there.

They have few issues once the Germans are stopped. Harry made that perfectly clear...the Germans will get wiped out due to numbers.
Numbers >>>>> than experience.
I just dont' want to see a Russian unit in every hex on the map.
I am pondering more weak units to start or more reserve units. Just finding the balance is the key.

The problem is that the Russians first have to stop the Germans. In most games they don't. Look at your game with Nirosi. Or my games with Sveint, where the Axis won both times in 1941. As for the Russians winning with numbers, well that is historically what they did. You played a very good game Stjeand (especially being handicapped as you were) but I think there are things you could have done as the Axis to slow down the Russians. You are used to attacking and I just think you need more experience defending.

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 9/22/2021 11:59:40 PM >

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 41

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 11:57:00 AM

Uxbridge

Posts: 1505
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline

Stjeand ... I'm considering a rise of the USSR initial experience from 30 to 35. I know how to do this, but I can't find the script/scripts that raises it further in the events file. Is the later rises source coded, or in fact hidden where I can't find them? I like the initial raise, but not that later additions should be based on that, so that the USSR eventually end up 5% higher than in the vanilla.

< Message edited by Uxbridge -- 9/22/2021 11:59:31 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 42

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 12:39:51 PM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge

Stjeand ... I'm considering a rise of the USSR initial experience from 30 to 35. I know how to do this, but I can't find the script/scripts that raises it further in the events file. Is the later rises source coded, or in fact hidden where I can't find them? I like the initial raise, but not that later additions should be based on that, so that the USSR eventually end up 5% higher than in the vanilla.

Well my understanding for Russia is...
They start at 30%...you can change that in the scenario under the country, or should be able too.
Then it grows slowly due to battle.

I am not sure that they need higher exp to start...but more units. The units are to slow / wear down the invaders. They do not need to "win" battles just eat up efficiency which is what will kill the German advance.

BUT to be honest the advance should be blunted due to that and supply.

I think changing the rail repair rate from 3 to 2...as a test...but suspect it will need to be changed to 1 and that will surely slow them down.

(in reply to Uxbridge)

Post #: 43

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 12:57:33 PM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana
The problem is that the Russians first have to stop the Germans. In most games they don't. Look at your game with Nirosi. Or my games with Sveint, where the Axis won both times in 1941. As for the Russians winning with numbers, well that is historically what they did. You played a very good game Stjeand (especially being handicapped as you were; but I think there are things you could have done as the Axis to slow down the Russians. You are used to attacking and I just think you need more experience defending.

Yes in my game with Nirosi I think he tried to hold the North too long and now the entire Russian army is cut off. That was a mistake...I have made it in the past myself.

My mistakes? OH they were a plenty.
I have a write up for that and what I need to correct.

I agree with you on all points...

1) I did get screwed with the rules change in the middle. That cost me a year, and not really sure how much in PP...
2) Leningrad was really where I feel I lost in Russia. It was out of supply...and done completely surrounded...then it was in supply through the winter and out again in the summer. That tied up 6 armor / mech corps that where most should have moved to the center and would have likely broken through the Russian li3) nes and ended the game. NOW this was ONLY possible due to a insanely good BOA which is unlikely to ever be repeated. Sadly knowing that Russia just has to hold 2 hexes to keep in supply, even if those 2 hexes our out of supply is the issue. Not sure how to address that. I have to see what you can do in the event file.
3) Attacking favors the numbers. Clearly once the Russians have numbers with decent units they are set...but I thought I had done an okay job defending until...your surgically precise attacks. If a Armor or Mech was on the front lines it was destroyed. In 1943 to 1944 you destroyed 20 armor / mech...maybe more I lost count. This was due to the numbers game. NOW I have a possible defense for it but it will require constant retreat which may be what the Germans have to do in Russia and that would make sense. I was foolishly under the impression that a full strength armor could hold a position being attacked by 2 units at half its strength and then 2 more units. I was wrong. That will come with experience. To be honest this was the first game I have ever played that went to 44 so with no experience defending as the Germans it is difficult to Assess.
4) My main point with the Allies being too strong is that even IF they are sending max PP to Russia they still end up with more than enough units to invade over and over. My mistake was in the Netherlands. One beach was all it took to take over one port there and when that happened France was lost. I will have to heavily defend that one beach with everything so that the invasion has to be further West. If that Allies start with Belgium and the Netherlands in their hands...Germany is lost.

NOW what can be done to fix this...some of my thoughts and I apologize due to lack of sleep for 3 days they will be completely scattered.

1) The issues Germany had attacking Russia was supply lines. I really thing the rail repair needs to be slowed down. Maybe to 1 hex per turm rather than 3. That might fix the whole issue. That same issue is supposed to exist for Russia. I was just watching a video as to how they kept running their supplies lines to the end. This is easy to test as it can be changed in the editor.
2) UK...Not to harp on the UK but they are FAR to large in the game. The issue I am seeing is that all their Pacific resources should be gone when Japan attacks. Why? They have to support the Pacific, and they do if you play WPP. What would this do? Well it would give the UK less production and more MS for the Atlantic. Perhaps 10/20 PP should be left there so that the UK would have to have MS in the South Atlantic since they should in order to supply the African campaign.
3) US should be powerful...so not sure I want to touch them in that regard.
4) Attacking does seem to be favored...especially in waves which you proved extremely effective. It did not matter as to loses...though it was really weird how losses in attacks against infantry seemed to be higher than losses against armor. That could just be luck. It was the constant attacks that just wore the units down. Armor in Russia after the first year never really gets above 80% efficiency...it is just not possible. I think there was a blizzard in April which was devastating. So with an armor sitting at say 85%...then attacked 4 times by 2 infantry the BEST they would hope for is to be down to 60%...but it is more likely to be 40% due to losses. EVEN when the defender wins with no losses they take losses to efficiency and that is the killer.
Perhaps a thought for a change to that...IF the defender wins by X they lose less efficiency based on experience.
For example...lets say a unit is attacked and the attacker loses 4 to 1. That is a 25% ratio. What is the defender loses 25% less efficiency times its experience? So if you had 50% experience, you would lose 5 efficiency rather than 6. While that does not seem like much...over 5 or 6 attacks it is. NOW change that to 10/1 in losses and a German 70% defender...the efficiency loss would be 1. Perhaps dug in helps a little...It is surely easier to defend then attack especially dug in units. They wear out much less than units running at them do they not?
German armor appears to never retreat and I am starting to gather why...when you attacked them with 2 infantry...It was impossible for them to ever retreat. Why? You made sure the odds were never above 2 to 1...and with their number of tanks and guns they always would hold. Once worn down you would switch to attack with a single unit to keep the odds below 4 to 1...then after 6 or 7 attacks...2 armor / mech would move in and have a 10 to 1 attack and overrun them.
I think that the guns and tanks that keep them from retreating at the issue. IF you take that number and multiply by the units efficiency the number would be much lower, and that makes more sense overall. Tanks are worn out, out of gas, damaged in need of repair, out of ammo and so on...MAYBE this happens but if not I think it needs too for the retreat roll. To add to this I did put in a request for Warplan 2 stating the need for a "Fighting Retreat" option rather than a hold or hold until you fail your retreat roll. Fighting Retreat would mean...the unit would retreat when it takes more losses in a battle against any attack.

And I continue to ramble...

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 44

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 2:25:11 PM

Uxbridge

Posts: 1505
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline

And there I was thinking it wasn't much more to learn about the game. The attack sequence you describe above is something I have never even considered. I will now. Another lesson is that the experience on a national basis actually go up as an overall battlefield effect. I thought it was scripted, and never paid much attention to the changing of the value, only were it was presently. With that knowledge in mind, and when we're playing an altered scenario where neither me, nor my opponent, have any idea what will happen�based on the sum of the above thread�I will change the experience to 35.

_____________________________

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 45

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 2:25:53 PM

Uxbridge

Posts: 1505
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline

Sorry. Double post.

< Message edited by Uxbridge -- 9/22/2021 2:27:12 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 46

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 3:23:56 PM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge
And there I was thinking it wasn't much more to learn about the game. The attack sequence you describe above is something I have never even considered. I will now. Another lesson is that the experience on a national basis actually go up as an overall battlefield effect. I thought it was scripted, and never paid much attention to the changing of the value, only were it was presently. With that knowledge in mind, and when we're playing an altered scenario where neither me, nor my opponent, have any idea what will happen�based on the sum of the above thread�I will change the experience to 35.

Please forget the attack sequence...it is too rough on the Axis forces.

I have to try it against the Russian forces in my next game with Axis small corps rather than large. That way you keep at 2 to 1 in attacks. Problem is...the Axis will take heavy losses...which is okay early since they get quite a few large manpower bumps. And to be honest you have to make use of them or you just lose that manpower which the Axis can ill afford.
In one game my manpower was maxed and the Axis was given 120 free...well that is all lost when it could have been used for 4 large corps or 120 repairs.

The exp up is not scripted it is built in from what I know.

Another possibility would be to drop the UK and US experience and let that go up over time...

I am not sure what effect that would have but it might delay early invasions and cause the UK to poke around more in Africa than they normally do.

Normally they just wait for the US to arrive and invade North Africa then move on Tobruk...
Maybe with less experience they would move on Tobruk to make attacks to get it to rise. Same in France.
Add to that the Americans had mostly disasterous attacks against the Axis in Africa. They won due to lack of supplies for the Axis and numbers.

< Message edited by stjeand -- 9/22/2021 6:11:24 PM >

(in reply to Uxbridge)

Post #: 47

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 5:30:16 PM

Uxbridge

Posts: 1505
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: Uppsala, Sweden
Status: offline

Well, I skip the ant before elephants-attacks then.

It's not really the vanilla I'm going to alter, but a modded version. Me and my opponent always end up with huge production in 1943-44, both being very defensive mannered, even when attacking. It leads to a WWI situation where we can no longer break the fronts. Therefore, I have lowered the production and manpower allotment dramatically�1/3 of normal in fluid allotment, and 1/3 of normal in time-scheduled reinforcement blocks�to see what happens. This will lead to the Germans maybe having an even bigger early advantage, why the rise from 30 to 35 for the USSR may seem a good balancing tool.

_____________________________

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 48

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 6:39:37 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Okay but that is explaining the huge number of Axis Armour and Mechanized units. Now, you will not anymore garrison the entire Axis army just after France to build this amount.
You should take this into consideration before saying Russia is too weak.

By Garrisoning and then ungarrisoning the German Infantry Stjeand lost about 800 production. Had he not done so he would have had more armour in 1942, not less.

Sorry but I have difficulties to follow. More armor, yes but because the game was started on an earlier version. I guess the best is to wait the result of this thread since I assume that this game was started with the latest patch:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5078169

I just would like to see the number of Axis armor and mechanized for Barbarossa in 1941 in this game. If 25, okay there is a problem.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 49

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 6:54:03 PM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline

NO you can not have that many armor for Barbarossa...well maybe but you would be desperately short on infantry.

The 25 armor was because I had another year to wait so attacked in 42...so was able to build another 10 armor for the attack in a years time of little or no battles.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 50

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 7:42:20 PM

battlevonwar

Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline

I am going to give you guys a template to work around and practice in hotseat at least for France. By May '40 the Germans have garrisoned the entire Force... They have mailed off the entire Navy/Sub fleet to raid endlessly(They can now build with what they get 9 to 10 Armor and Mechs). The Brits can build 3 to 4 Mech they come with 1 Armor. With the prebuilt Infantry Corps that come with the British Army you can muster around 8-10 Infantry Corps in France. You can strip England as most of the ports with the mines are useless to land on. Check directly which ports can even be invaded.

After France strips out every piece of real-estate and garrisons with Brits with truck supply and the Maginot Experienced Swapped French Corps can line up a defensive line where the Germans beat their heads against the wall. If the Kriegsmarine is unlucky early the Brits need less investment in ASW. French can build an Armor with Heavy Armor if they want but this is not always advantage they can't afford to reinforce it. Use CVs against German land units as well after you wear them out with the French Air and British Air. After the French air is tired disband it for Manpower and Production.

The Germans are limited on time and must break France before Rain '40. So now they must crack skulls head on, while the Mobile British Reserves sit back. You save your air power and use MASSIVE amounts of truck supply to wait... When the Axis leave 1 Armor or Mech in front to defend in a vulnerable position you smack it and this slows the Axis to a crawl. They have to individually remove 1 French Unit or at best 2 at a time till the front breaks.

(Generally with 7 or 8 units attacking you remove an Armor with your air softening it up and with your mobility can get behind the lines. Keep your great British Generals in Charge in the front too..with up to 10 Air attacks 12 or 13 land attacks or more it's hard to survive. Monty leading the assault)

If you properly replay this in hotseat 15-20 times if you do not outright kill 3-4 German Armor/Mechs/Infantry Corps. Wear down 200 Air Step and 300-400 Land Step you aren't doing it right. This will ripen them up for the next phase.

You now choose a location with amphibious buildup to hammer. It can be anywhere but you must do it and make a massive landing like behind the Afrika Corp or in France and just plant a Full strength Armor on a Port City like Cherbourg where it can't be really countered. Force the Axis to react here or later you can use this port to have an early D-Day.(the Germans have to use air and several Armor to counter this and they will lose step even if you lose units, it's hyper annoying and costly on them) If you properly conserve your Airpower use your Infantry Corps you can delay the Axis for their Russian Preparation. By little D-Days here and there. The supply lines are chokepoints in certain locations and you can blockade and entire supply line with a Para and a Infantry Div often... Look for places where this can be done and with conjunction with Partisans.

Now Face the Reds... The Reds just are poor outright, you disband nothing.(wearing German effectiveness is key as soon you will have Strong Units from dead ones) You use everything, you train your air on the Finnish. If the Axis have been strained as much as I've told you to do above there will be precious few resources in Finland and if there are they won't be doing much good. The Russians will lose a lot of ground but now you have a diminished German Panzer Force. It would of taken the Axis till about September(possibly late) to take France or they lost a lot to do it earlier. The Russians need to put up their speedbumps lose a lot of units. Use the swamps, the South is a good defensive line and pump in the LendLease. Hammer out tons of Rifle Corps, make moving annoying. Wear away German Effectiveness so they cannot take Moscow, or dig too deep past the Leningrad to Rostov line in '41...

In '42 is the real fight. . . The Germans may take Moscow and with a great Axis Player you will still see your units vaporize. With air drops/partisans and a few D-Days the Germans need a mobile reserve of at least 3-4 Armor, 8-12 Corp in the West. They can keep some in the East but they will need to rotate them out to face the West at any point. If you keep cutting lines with Partisans they may not a few turns to do this and you can take harass the Germans take the Low Countries or just threaten them. Even if the Germans kill off your D-Day, you can have another in a few turns cause of the Production/Manpower now ramping up ...

The Allies still shouldn't be able to lose they just can't obviously do the insane constant amphibious invasions.

P.S. Keep your Russian Cavalry Corps, they are superb for cutting supply everywhere. Constantly cut Germany Supply with Partisans and Cavalry Corps(unless this was fixed in a patch they are very hard to kill as well)

If you do not hurt the Germans in '40 the rule is by '41 you will be hurt in the East.

A Great German Player will have issues in '43! This is when the tables just got turned on all fronts and she goes defensive or loses a lot faster with no chance of a victory.

P.S.S. I've left out some points, finer points but against an ADEPT Axis Player you may have to toss your Brits and since by this point your Canadians and UK Forces are rebuilt to protect Africa you should be fine in doing so but delaying the Axis in taking France and having a new Armor or Mech you are in a great position. Don't reinforce damaged Naval Units at this Point. Wait.. You can wait on air as well as there will be no winter action.

Key is too keep up that effectiveness and force the Luftwaffe and Armor to get "hurt bad..." there is no reason to let them get away with freebie XP gains.

Time is the Friend of the Allies but people want to keep their pretty little units when all they need in the west is hurt the Axis even if they lose a lot. You can build it all back later and 10 Xs more. Armor isn't necessary for the Allies later. They have a Sea of Army Corps! Or Mechs which pump out faster. Just knock those puppies off the assembly line to the point you load 20 or 30 into France. Germany can never stand up to this. Even if she kills them all you can have 20 or 30 again soon.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Okay but that is explaining the huge number of Axis Armour and Mechanized units. Now, you will not anymore garrison the entire Axis army just after France to build this amount.
You should take this into consideration before saying Russia is too weak.

By Garrisoning and then ungarrisoning the German Infantry Stjeand lost about 800 production. Had he not done so he would have had more armour in 1942, not less.

Sorry but I have difficulties to follow. More armor, yes but because the game was started on an earlier version. I guess the best is to wait the result of this thread since I assume that this game was started with the latest patch:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5078169

I just would like to see the number of Axis armor and mechanized for Barbarossa in 1941 in this game. If 25, okay there is a problem.

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 9/22/2021 7:55:22 PM >

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 51

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 8:05:03 PM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

We have tested this in the past...and it goes very poorly for the Axis and makes for a boring game. If they lose even a single armor in France, I believe the war is pretty much over. Others say differently but losing a 400PP unit is not replaceable early.

If you go back in the forums look for the French all in.
You can play this way...it is a choice if you just want to play a boring game.

It would be like playing checkers and you get a free king on after your first move...yes the other player can win but it is can go badly.
AGAIN the issue is...the Axis knowing if this is happening. If they know...believe me the UK is falling.

BUT there are defenses to all things. And even though you have mines Axis invasions can turn them off. IF the Axis decide to land in the UK IF you have pulled it all to France...It could go badly.

For the Axis, just take out the Netherlands and Belgium...line up like you are ready to crack heads and drop your paratroopers in the UK and multiple corps...
Then if the Germans get an armor or two over there the UK is done for.

But it is not easy and the UK needs to not show their hand...As the Axis you have to be sure to have some LCs in your pocket for either case.

(in reply to battlevonwar)

Post #: 52

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 10:29:46 PM

sveint

Posts: 3556
Joined: 1/19/2001
From: Glorious Europe
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

You lecture too much and listen too little.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 53

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/22/2021 10:30:24 PM

sveint

Posts: 3556
Joined: 1/19/2001
From: Glorious Europe
Status: offline

We have an "Italian Option" scenario, what we need is a "Russian Option" scenario. That way everyone would be happy.

< Message edited by sveint -- 9/22/2021 10:31:35 PM >

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 54

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/23/2021 12:25:37 AM

Harrybanana

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

NOW what can be done to fix this...some of my thoughts and I apologize due to lack of sleep for 3 days they will be completely scattered.

1) The issues Germany had attacking Russia was supply lines. I really thing the rail repair needs to be slowed down. Maybe to 1 hex per turm rather than 3. That might fix the whole issue. That same issue is supposed to exist for Russia. I was just watching a video as to how they kept running their supplies lines to the end. This is easy to test as it can be changed in the editor.

I would suggest starting by reducing to 2. I will test this with you if you want.

Another option would be to reduce a units OPs based on its supply level. 7-9 Supply level = Full OPs. 4-6 Supply Level = minus 25% OPs, 1 -3 Supply level = minus 50% OPs. But this might really slow units down in Africa.

quote:

2) UK...Not to harp on the UK but they are FAR to large in the game. The issue I am seeing is that all their Pacific resources should be gone when Japan attacks. Why? They have to support the Pacific, and they do if you play WPP. What would this do? Well it would give the UK less production and more MS for the Atlantic. Perhaps 10/20 PP should be left there so that the UK would have to have MS in the South Atlantic since they should in order to supply the African campaign.

quote:

3) US should be powerful...so not sure I want to touch them in that regard.

I think they are a bit too strong.

quote:

4) Attacking does seem to be favored...especially in waves which you proved extremely effective. It did not matter as to loses...though it was really weird how losses in attacks against infantry seemed to be higher than losses against armor. That could just be luck. It was the constant attacks that just wore the units down. Armor in Russia after the first year never really gets above 80% efficiency...it is just not possible. I think there was a blizzard in April which was devastating. So with an armor sitting at say 85%...then attacked 4 times by 2 infantry the BEST they would hope for is to be down to 60%...but it is more likely to be 40% due to losses. EVEN when the defender wins with no losses they take losses to efficiency and that is the killer.
Perhaps a thought for a change to that...IF the defender wins by X they lose less efficiency based on experience.
For example...lets say a unit is attacked and the attacker loses 4 to 1. That is a 25% ratio. What is the defender loses 25% less efficiency times its experience? So if you had 50% experience, you would lose 5 efficiency rather than 6. While that does not seem like much...over 5 or 6 attacks it is. NOW change that to 10/1 in losses and a German 70% defender...the efficiency loss would be 1. Perhaps dug in helps a little...It is surely easier to defend then attack especially dug in units. They wear out much less than units running at them do they not?
German armor appears to never retreat and I am starting to gather why...when you attacked them with 2 infantry...It was impossible for them to ever retreat. Why? You made sure the odds were never above 2 to 1...and with their number of tanks and guns they always would hold. Once worn down you would switch to attack with a single unit to keep the odds below 4 to 1...then after 6 or 7 attacks...2 armor / mech would move in and have a 10 to 1 attack and overrun them.
I think that the guns and tanks that keep them from retreating at the issue. IF you take that number and multiply by the units efficiency the number would be much lower, and that makes more sense overall. Tanks are worn out, out of gas, damaged in need of repair, out of ammo and so on...MAYBE this happens but if not I think it needs too for the retreat roll. To add to this I did put in a request for Warplan 2 stating the need for a "Fighting Retreat" option rather than a hold or hold until you fail your retreat roll. Fighting Retreat would mean...the unit would retreat when it takes more losses in a battle against any attack.

I don't like your efficiency test because it favours the Germans and handicaps the Russians. The Russians need more help not the Germans.

I destroyed all your armour and mech because they failed their "saving throw" and were overrun rather than retreating. Perhaps a solution would be to incease the chances of a unit retreating rather than being overrun.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 55

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/23/2021 1:27:29 PM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline

quote:

I would suggest starting by reducing to 2. I will test this with you if you want.

Another option would be to reduce a units OPs based on its supply level. 7-9 Supply level = Full OPs. 4-6 Supply Level = minus 25% OPs, 1 -3 Supply level = minus 50% OPs. But this might really slow units down in Africa.

More than happy to test this with you.
My thoughts on the 1 / 2 stem from a board game I used to play in the past, Fire in the East by SSI. In that game, the scale are pretty close to this...actually lower scale and Germany had just 5 rail repair units...those units could repair only 1 hex per turn. This slowed the Germans down heavily...as did shorter supply lines in that game.

2 would be a fine test to run.

quote:

2) UK...Not to harp on the UK but they are FAR to large in the game. The issue I am seeing is that all their Pacific resources should be gone when Japan attacks. Why? They have to support the Pacific, and they do if you play WPP. What would this do? Well it would give the UK less production and more MS for the Atlantic. Perhaps 10/20 PP should be left there so that the UK would have to have MS in the South Atlantic since they should in order to supply the African campaign.

In our game it is late summer 44 and the British have a force size of about 700 for land and 200 (I think) for air for a total of 900. They only have 2 Armour and 2 Mechanized. The Canadians have a force size of only 30. I personally don't think this is too large at all.

While watching the Forces what I really noticed was that the Germans and Russians rarely went beyond 2200...yes plus or mins that from time to time...so I have not spent a lot of time looking into are those numbers correct or in correct.
BUT I did look into the UK numbers a while back..

Checking again...

The UK had a total of 85 divisions during the entirety of the war. 12 of those were AA divisions so those would be the AA guns. So remove them.
2 of those are Airborne...there were no airborne corps so that is a bit off but okay let that go.
11 were armor. So for what you have...You are a bit under that but I believe 1 or 2 were destroyed at some point. So you are a little above there but within reason.
10 "county" divisions, basically homeguard. You do have that for most of the game in the ports and such.
50 Infantry...NOW this includes all the units in the Pacfic also as well as locations that are not on the map, East Africa, South Africa and so on...7 were in the Pacific...which if you have played WPP that is close to what they have...
SO that leave about 66 division which should be 660 or so in strength.

BUT many of the divisions were destroyed during the war. My numbers could be off but 18 were disbanded or destroyed leaving less than 500 in strength...yes the UK has over 700, so about 50% more than historical.

I will have to dig into the air but believe you are at about 50%...so I guess that fits.

BUT a 50% force increase is pretty huge in my eyes.

NOW I did just find a bug where the UK are receiving too many PP after the Japanese attack. Honestly the UK should receive 0 PP from the Pacific when the Japanese attack. If you check both games they are actually double dipping the PP points. NONE are sent from the Pacific to the mainland since all the ones listed are in India and Australia which gets receive points, and send some to the UK which they use in the Pacific.
BUT that is a debate for a different time.

The UK though should be receiving 20 less PP per turn based on the bug...at the time the change occurs it is more like 30 PP per turn, due to the multiplier, as I am sure they are at 1.5 maybe even higher in 1942.
Another effect this has is it frees up 20 MS from the South Pacific route.

I say start with fixing the bug of the 20 PP then work from there. That will cause the UK to have a lot less points as this works out to more than 1500 points in 42 and 43 alone...now you add in 44 and you are will over 2000...
That is what 7 or 8 UK infantry corps?
That might bring them right in line.

quote:

I think they are a bit too strong.

Perhaps a simple possible fix for the US would be to change their experience to 40% rather than 45%...
Their units were pretty green. I have watched quite a few accounts and they believed they were far superior to the Germans and soon found out they were horribly wrong. Very early heavy losses occurred but over time they got better and smarter as the German experience declined. Which this seems to exactly fit this condition

quote:

I don't like your efficiency test because it favours the Germans and handicaps the Russians. The Russians need more help not the Germans.

I destroyed all your armour and mech because they failed their "saving throw" and were overrun rather than retreating. Perhaps a solution would be to incease the chances of a unit retreating rather than being overrun.

I agree here...with the retreat. IF they retreated more than this would not have been a conversation.

I think the issue with retreating is that...as their efficiency drops, their desire for retreat should rise. In fact if you think about is...say your unit had 9 tanks in strength...IF you efficiency is 50% that is really 4.5 tanks as some will be damaged requiring maintenance, out of fuel / ammo and so on...that would raise their chance for a retreat as the number of guns and tanks were lowered by efficiency changes.

I still do feel that dug in units should lose less efficiency than attacking units especially when they win a battle. NOT a ton less but some. BUT fix the retreat and this may not matter.

I had asked Al that in WPP perhaps there is a fighting retreat, like hold as an option for units. They will fight a battle and if they "lose", more losses taken than given, they will retreat, or perhaps even IF they get to a certain efficiency they will be more likely to retreat.

Keep in mind this will help the Russians too...as they would be able to pull units back early on...though not tons.

BUT my thoughts on this are due to not enough defensive battles.

I truly enjoyed out battles in Africa where you would smash a unit..and I would, back and forth we went...
That is how I thought Russia should play out at least to start and once outnumbered have to retreat at least 1 hex per turn else they will just get overrun.

What I do not know how to address is air units...

In our game Germany built none as you stated.
I am sure Russia built none.

In reality both built some...Russia appeared to nearly double their airfoce prior to the German invasion...

Germany built maybe 2 bombers and most of their fighters.

NOW the US and UK...well there is where the big issues happen.
Think of it this way...
Would you rather have 3 strat bombers...or 4 armor? Sorry but that is a no brainer. Especially since the strat bombers can attack for two turns...then their efficiency is so low they have to not attack for 3 to 4 months to build it back up, if not more.
Same for the UK...

In our game that would be 4 armor for the Germans to remove to cover their air...

But how many infantry and armor would the UK / US not have if they had to build air?

< Message edited by stjeand -- 9/23/2021 2:22:27 PM >

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 56

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/24/2021 2:49:56 AM

Harrybanana

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

BUT many of the divisions were destroyed during the war. My numbers could be off but 18 were disbanded or destroyed leaving less than 500 in strength...yes the UK has over 700, so about 50% more than historical.

I will have to dig into the air but believe you are at about 50%...so I guess that fits.

BUT a 50% force increase is pretty huge in my eyes.

You are forgetting some of the British Force size in the game comes from Australian, Anzac and Free French Corps. I think these total 3 large corps, so that is 90 Force strength. Also I used all my Canadian production to build escorts and MS and supply trucks. This freed up British production to build at least one further large corps. So really the difference is between the 730 I had in the game (British, Anzac, Free French and Canadian) and the 590 Historical force size. So the difference is really less than 20% and can be explained by the fact that my Airforce size was about 200 less than historical. When you add to this that the British lost 0 forces in 1941, I think the British land force size I have in the game is on the low side.

In any event, the question to me isn't what size land force the British did have historically, but what size land force they could have had. If the Germans can field a land force size of 2200, than the British could field one of at least a 1000.

Furthermore you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't argue that the game should not allow the British to build a larger army than historical, unless you also accept that it should not allow the Germans to build 25 Armour and Mechanized units. Historically it is far more plausible that the British could build a 1000 force size army, than it is that the Germans could build a 750 size panzer force. The Germans simply did not have the factories to do this even if they delayed Barbarossa until 1942. And even if they did, they would not have enough oil to fuel this size of a mobile force for more than a few months.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 57

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/24/2021 11:57:57 AM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline

I totally agree with that assessment regarding armor / mech...but the German army size was not above what they normally had. 2200 in size is what they have in the scenarios as well as about what I had overall...+ or - 15% or so...
The UK on the other hand had 80% to 100% increase in what they get in the scenarios.
The Russians though also had twice the number of armor / mech that they should have...that kept them in line with the Germans, so this sort of broke even.

What I am hoping to see in WP2 is one of two things...

1) Logistics for Land, Air and Sea separated.
That would limit the countries a bit...and if you wanted an armor division is 20 logistics say...mobile infantry 12 logistics, walking infantry 10 logistics...and so on.
OR
2) Limits around armor and air that are like Shipyards...perhaps air factories and armor factories, which I have seen Al talk about a little.
They should also be required for repairs...so as a country you are gaining armor / manpower / air units...and they are used to build and repair units, and they are able to have so much storage of said unit, though not sure this will matter.
Also allow strat bombers to target factories/storage...that could make them actually useful and someone may want to build them.

I think with the PP fix for the UK (The extra 20+ they have been getting after Japan enters) will lower their numbers to more in line since I assessed it is actually 30PP per turn that the lose after the multiplier...through 42, 43 and 44...that is a lot of units / repairs.

As for the German armored forces...they were about 60% armor 40% mech.
I believe Armor Corps have 2 Tanks Divisions where as the Mech Corps has 1...

That would work out to about 30 Tank Divisions in armor (15 corps) and 10 Tank Divisions in Mech (10 corps) for 40 total divisions.

During the war Germany had ~34 Tank Divisions...not necessarily all by 1942...but after 42 not sure what I added...It was small though...I think 1 armor and 2 mech.
Thought not all these were "good" tank divisions.
For Barbarossa 1941 Germany had 20...So in a year I was able to double that. IF I had attacked in 41...I was pretty close to that number...which seems to be the best Germany can do currently.

Russia...well I would have to do a bit of work there...but suffice to say they were way over armored / meched too.

< Message edited by stjeand -- 9/24/2021 1:27:54 PM >

(in reply to Harrybanana)

Post #: 58

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/25/2021 1:18:20 AM

battlevonwar

Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline

stjeand,(we all shared this with Alvaro over 10-15 Games over the Winter with AARs and games vs him) I played 3 games with this strategy and the Axis lost 2 out of 3. They won a technical victory in the 3rd. Tactics have changed favoring the Axis more now and would make your point on defending Russia more valid than ever. The Axis can lose tons of equipment in France/and elsewhere. That's how you get the balance to leave the base game alone. It's the skill which is the determining factor not the game at this point on whether Russia can defend itself. Skill dictates she can if the Axis are cut by 25%-35% in Manpower/Oil/Industry by 1941. Really I think it's safer to raid the hell out of England at the cost of your oil reserves as these are the prime years for it and only years but invading her I am not sure you will come out ahead with this. USA will take awhile with the new rules to retake England so I would have to see... Most of the players now don't really defend France though as they play it like they play all vanilla Hexagon Grand Strat WW2 Games. Russia is quite strong! But if you kill 100 MP 60 Air Steps in the Fall of France you really get Smooshed like a VW Beetle vs a King Tiger. The game is I'm afraid rewarding for the offensive Allies(they have more production manpower) any way you line up taking more German/Italian Manpower you end up better off.

(Sea Lion is a viable strategy I am not sure you can pull it off and kill France and prepare for the USA early entry and deal with Russia, perhaps in a prolonged strategy and delaying Barbarossa... haven't seen too many people succeed with this but maybe they will chime in) ??

quote:

ORIGINAL: stjeand

quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

We have tested this in the past...and it goes very poorly for the Axis and makes for a boring game. If they lose even a single armor in France, I believe the war is pretty much over. Others say differently but losing a 400PP unit is not replaceable early.

If you go back in the forums look for the French all in.
You can play this way...it is a choice if you just want to play a boring game.

It would be like playing checkers and you get a free king on after your first move...yes the other player can win but it is can go badly.
AGAIN the issue is...the Axis knowing if this is happening. If they know...believe me the UK is falling.

BUT there are defenses to all things. And even though you have mines Axis invasions can turn them off. IF the Axis decide to land in the UK IF you have pulled it all to France...It could go badly.

For the Axis, just take out the Netherlands and Belgium...line up like you are ready to crack heads and drop your paratroopers in the UK and multiple corps...
Then if the Germans get an armor or two over there the UK is done for.

But it is not easy and the UK needs to not show their hand...As the Axis you have to be sure to have some LCs in your pocket for either case.

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 9/25/2021 2:06:38 AM >

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 59

RE: What To Do With Russia - 9/25/2021 1:20:16 AM

battlevonwar

Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline

sveint, what lecture? People can defend Russia, the players all agree that the strategy I put out is a viable defense of Russia rather than altering this game for the 10th time. There you go... in plain terms(you used one like it yourself vs me)

Game has been out long enough now it's time to stop coveting the strategies and tactics that work and openly share. I have had people ragequit over not being able to defend Russia and they don't know why or how. Sad...

quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

You lecture too much and listen too little.

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 9/25/2021 1:26:56 AM >

(in reply to sveint)

Post #: 60

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> WarPlan >> RE: What To Do With Russia

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

2.328

Slitherine

RE: What To Do With Russia