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Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/19/2022 9:18:49 PM

JohnSiv

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I have been playing war games for 60 years. I first encountered a 100+ page rule book somewhere around 1977 and have never had a problem with digging deep and working hard to understand all the rules. Complexity in war games has never troubled me but I have noted quite a number of times in my experience when the game developer simply got carried away and, quite literally, did not realize that he had managed to take all the fun out of the game.

I have just pushed the delete button on my Shadow Empire "saved games" at the 12th unsuccessful try at playing the game to conclusion...after probably 150 total hours or more of play.

I have read the rule book and I have read numerous pieces of advice on this forum as well as on the Steam forum.

Simply stated, my opinion is that the logistics rules, as currently implemented, kill all the fun in the game. I know that numerous posters have suggested this is the "greatest part" of the game. It is not.

I understand that the game can be played under circumstances in which the logistics function is disabled but the problem with that is that the game clearly needs a logistics function. It is a game which holds out tremendous promise, but the developer went too far and created a monster. I have come to a point where all the gyrations of the logistics system - with "pulls" and "refocus" and "do I put the railway station outside the city and, if so, for God's sake why" - have me asking why I am putting up with all of this.

Funny, Decisive Campaigns Barbarossa is the greatest war game I have ever played. It may look complicated but at heart it is really pretty simple. Notably, I think that that there is no element of the game which is not absolutely clear - if you have a question or concern you will find the answer with examples in the rule book. Absolutely not the case with Shadow Empire.

Sad. As I said, in my opinion this is one of those situations where the developer simply went too far and managed to take the fun out of the game.

Post #: 1

RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/20/2022 12:18:07 AM

solops

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Well said. But, I still love the game. The supply system makes no sense sometimes, even after going through all of the tutorials and the manual. Just when it seems clear, something happens that makes no sense at all. We need a better explanation and a report that explains what is going on. I should not have to go through multiple screens to start getting a hint of what is wrong. SE is still my favorite game, but I am weary of fighting the logistics system instead of the enemy, spending dozens of turns building stuff just to figure out what effect it has on my supply situation. The regular to high speed rail transition is still messed up. Supply is just frustrating. And no, going to the "simplified supply" option is not the answer. Right now, I figure that there are about a dozen gamers in the world that really, REALLY understand the system. And no one can really explain it, not Das Tactic or anyone else who has tried. We need a convention with a big Q&A session in an auditorium, because a lot of answers cause more questions. And all of these odd cases pop up that make no sense. Anyway, back to the game. I still love it. I have a cephalopod to kill.

_____________________________

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/20/2022 12:30:04 AM

solops

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And JohnSiv, you beat me. I have been playing war games for only 57 years. Started with Avalon Hill's Gettysburg.

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/20/2022 12:43:24 AM

Twotribes

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Only 50 years here started with Afrika Korps found the map in the trash in 72 and went looking for war games

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/20/2022 3:12:29 AM

John S

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Yeah. I started with Gettysburg in 1961 at the age of eleven. Tactics II, D-Day and, and amazingly underrated game - Niechess - followed. Lots of fun games with only the occasional disappointment.

I have to say, I just really love it when people talk about how one way to beat the problems with the logistics is to locate the railway station or the railhead in the hex immediately outside your second or third city.

Good lord, think about it. Given the stated scale of the game, the size of the hex as I recall is 200 km (roughly 120 miles). Who on God�s green earth would ever in your wildest dreams design a game where it made sense to locate the railway station 120 miles outside of the city!!!! Why in anything like a real world or even an imaginary world (let alone a relatively unpopulated planet) would this ever be the solution to your logistics problem.

Let�s see, we want to get supplies efficiently to Atlanta GA so let�s locate the rail station not in Atlanta but instead in Macon GA, yep, that will do the trick.

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/20/2022 3:00:20 PM

ShadowVillage

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I'm a relative spring chicken here, having started wargaming with Midway and then Flattop back in '75.

The complexity of the logistics system hasn't turned me off the game yet - my solution is to overbuild capacity. That said, I see two basic issues.

1 - the supply assets produce far too few logistics points. I have three level 3 train stations at/around my capital and have to bring in population to get the city to level 4 so I can upgrade the assets. That just seems like the wrong solution.

2 - the whole basis of the supply system is that everything flows through the capital (unless you have multiple SHQ's which adds a penalty and makes the game even more complicated). Why can't supplies go from the source to where they're needed rather than going through the capital? I understand going via the capital may be an easier mechanic to program, but it's a significant contributor to bottlenecks.

As stated, I still like the game and even after a year of playing, I'm still getting into new facets of it. There are so many layers to play on.

(in reply to John S)

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/20/2022 9:38:53 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

I have to say, I just really love it when people talk about how one way to beat the problems with the logistics is to locate the railway station or the railhead in the hex immediately outside your second or third city.

I have honestly no clear idea why people keep saying that "one hex outside the city" part.
All it does is make truck logistics work hard, to get stuff too and from the railway. You are actively negating the very purpose of a rail connection. Which is to stop using Truck logistics for intercity transfers.

This might be about a later highspeed rail upgrade, but why worry about that if you have issues even getting Rail to work at all?

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 1/20/2022 9:40:09 PM >

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/21/2022 2:14:08 AM

John S

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Zgrssd - Thanks for that insight. I have read a lot of your posts and they are always helpful. You have a great ability to explain things.

What�s odd for me is that there is so much mystery and oddness in this logistics system. Decades ago, I spent eight years working closely with and advising a food distribution division with 23 locations across the USA and about $100 MM in business and I can tell you from experience that logistics back then was complicated but it wasn�t that complicated and all of my experience was prior to the widespread introduction and use of barcodes and computerization. In the real world logistics is complicated but not brain surgery. Why is it so hard to figure out and handle in a relatively barren world with four or five cities and a population under 1MM spread out over a fairly limited amount of space?

Solops, in his comment above, makes the point that no one seems to be able to really explain the logistics system in a manner in which the highly intelligent people playing this game can feel comfortable that they know exactly what they are doing. Having spent a lot of time reading, watching videos and then playing the game, I agree with him completely. Simply stated, the logistics system is over designed and the saddest part of an otherwise great game.

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/21/2022 5:27:54 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

What�s odd for me is that there is so much mystery and oddness in this logistics system.

If you have a question - and can post images - ask away.

The system is realy rather simple. Honestly, dumb. The kind that a computer could simulate without a issue. A fraction as complex or smart or deep then you seem to think.

quote:

Solops, in his comment above, makes the point that no one seems to be able to really explain the logistics system in a manner in which the highly intelligent people playing this game can feel comfortable that they know exactly what they are doing.

1. Logistic Points are produce in the hex, and then are split over all directions based on traffic sign and pull points
2. Running out of AP reduces the capacity of a supplyrunner
3. Hitting another Logistics Producer refocusses the supplyrunner, resetting AP at cost of some capacity
4. Something travelling on the logistics network consumes Logistisc Points on every Single hex it travels

What parts - that aren't details of the above points - am I missing?

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 1/21/2022 5:28:42 AM >

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/21/2022 6:28:01 AM

mattpilot

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I guess i'll be the odd ball here ... I do think i understand it and i like it. I've read a lot on these forums and in the game manual and it isn't that difficult. It is probably the #1 reason why i do play this game so much - finally a war game that has a real logistics system.

On the other hand, i dont understand a few of the 'logistics tips' often found on the forum, like zgrssd mentioned above like building a truck/railway station outside the city. To me that never made sense so i never do it (as explained by zgrssd).. but it seems to be a 'pro-tip' on here.

The one thing i don't like is, as also mentioned here, is that everything has to go back to the SHQ and then resent, instead of going point2point. But i suppose that might be abstracted in the 'high' logistics points an asset gives.

Things that helped me with logistics, in no particular order:

- co-locate truck and rail transport - dont build them 1 off
- make sure you eliminate ALL unneccessary road junctions; literally destroy the road connection. A traffic sign does not help (there is a penalty for each junction where in the end even 1000 supply points can stop dead) (I dont like this, but i suppose its a computational limitation abstracted into a gameplay thing? :-)
- sometimes i build supply bases, but they dont stack - better to have 1 upgraded base at a junction where multiple sources run together and get the boost
- regularily check the supply usage map and use traffic signs to cut off supply where it will never go anyway (important as your empire expands - you'll find some roads never ever get used again).
- build logistic points in advance before you need it... this will always be the big issue. Every new town i start with a truckhub.

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/21/2022 8:13:01 AM

Soar_Slitherine

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The reason people build rail stations outside a city hex is to avoid the refocusing penalty - if a city has no rail station, then multiple rail stations can contribute logistics to both the city and the rest of the rail network without penalty, while a rail station in the city hex (or in any other hex that rail points have to pass through) will penalize LP from any other rail stations by at least 25% after it passes through (the same applies between truck stations). I do think that refocusing is a bad mechanic, because it leads to a bunch of tedious fiddling with the minute details of logistics station and road positioning, and it's completely unintuitive and so has to be constantly explained in order for new players to understand what's going on with the logistics system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mattpilot
- make sure you eliminate ALL unneccessary road junctions; literally destroy the road connection. A traffic sign does not help (there is a penalty for each junction where in the end even 1000 supply points can stop dead) (I dont like this, but i suppose its a computational limitation abstracted into a gameplay thing? :-)

The Traffic Signs window logistics branch count does not count up in my savegames when passing junctions with roads blocked by traffic signs. However, if pull points aren't blocked and are still getting sent through, I would obviously expect that to still contribute to branching.

It would also be better for branching penalties to not be a thing, because it likewise adds a bunch of fiddling and another arcane mechanic capable of destroying the logistics systems of players that haven't studied up on it.

< Message edited by Soar_Slitherine -- 1/21/2022 8:24:14 AM >

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/21/2022 8:46:17 AM

mattpilot

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quote:

The Traffic Signs window logistics branch count does not count up in my savegames when passing junctions with roads blocked by traffic signs. However, if pull points aren't blocked and are still getting sent through, I would obviously expect that to still contribute to branching.

I couldn't find any branching penalty info in my last game, but i conquered enemy territory, and after every tile they added another layer of road. So after i conquered it all, i was left with about 10 extra junctions on my main supply road, and i just couldn't figure out why about 1000 LP stopped dead in its track. I had all the traffic signs set and 0 LP were being let through (not even pull). Only after i deleted the actual road connection did the roughly 1000 LP continue to travel. So maybe there is a bug, but my logistic network drastically improved in my game after deleting lots of unneeded road connection - despite traffic signs.

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/21/2022 3:19:28 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

The reason people build rail stations outside a city hex is to avoid the refocusing penalty - if a city has no rail station, then multiple rail stations can contribute logistics to both the city and the rest of the rail network without penalty, while a rail station in the city hex (or in any other hex that rail points have to pass through) will penalize LP from any other rail stations by at least 25% after it passes through (the same applies between truck stations). I do think that refocusing is a bad mechanic, because it leads to a bunch of tedious fiddling with the minute details of logistics station and road positioning, and it's completely unintuitive and so has to be constantly explained in order for new players to understand what's going on with the logistics system.

The mechanic itself does not lead to that fiddling. You trying to get 120% ouf of it, does.

You do not find the fiddling worth it, then do not do it.
Think big picture. Upgrade the important Rail stations. Then that small penalty does not mater.

A 25% loss for a AP reset does not mater in the grand sheme of things. You are trying to run a system with simply too few assets and seem to think fiddling with it will solve anything.
Even if you could get a extra 20% out, in a few turns you will have 20% more consumption and need that extra asset anyway. So a lot of time spend on something that does not actually help in teh long run.

quote:

The Traffic Signs window logistics branch count does not count up in my savegames when passing junctions with roads blocked by traffic signs. However, if pull points aren't blocked and are still getting sent through, I would obviously expect that to still contribute to branching.

I wish the game had a "dead end detection", where it automatically puts a "block all but pull points" on all crossings leading to dead ends.

With the definition of "dead end" being "any road that does not have cities on both ends".

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/21/2022 3:52:54 PM

JohnSiv

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zgrssd - just a word to say thanks for your efforts to clarify and clean things up including your most recent post. I may have fallen victim to reading way too many posts and letting their complications (and, possibly, their inaccuracies) lead me into a few dead ends. You have encouraged me to go back and give it a few more tries and to focus on the relatively simple points that you have outlined. Hope I have not come across as a stubborn old guy (though that may well be the case!). Again, many thanks for your effort.

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/21/2022 4:46:17 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSiv

zgrssd - just a word to say thanks for your efforts to clarify and clean things up including your most recent post. I may have fallen victim to reading way too many posts and letting their complications (and, possibly, their inaccuracies) lead me into a few dead ends. You have encouraged me to go back and give it a few more tries and to focus on the relatively simple points that you have outlined. Hope I have not come across as a stubborn old guy (though that may well be the case!). Again, many thanks for your effort.

Looking at the numbers again, there is definitely some issues in the values Vic put out. But they seem to get better at higher Tiers. And much less of an issue with Trucks.

And personally I am willing to just take those inefficiencies, if that means I do not have to worry about all that micro-management.

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/21/2022 5:25:49 PM

Twotribes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSiv

zgrssd - just a word to say thanks for your efforts to clarify and clean things up including your most recent post. I may have fallen victim to reading way too many posts and letting their complications (and, possibly, their inaccuracies) lead me into a few dead ends. You have encouraged me to go back and give it a few more tries and to focus on the relatively simple points that you have outlined. Hope I have not come across as a stubborn old guy (though that may well be the case!). Again, many thanks for your effort.

I am a stubborn old guy nothing wrong with being one.

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/21/2022 6:35:36 PM

ruzen

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I think people are too focused on the logistics side of the game.
Yes, it is a big part of the game but not the biggest thing that, this game offers.

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/22/2022 11:29:54 AM

bvoid

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The logistics do not bother me in this game, my annoyances are with the AI.

* Bad strategic AI (but good tactical ai)
* AI doesn't follow airbase rules
* AI spams free roads across mountain ranges

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/23/2022 12:37:01 AM

GazBot

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mmmm....I think your trying to attain 100% understanding when only 70 to 80% is actually required to effectively play the game.

Could the supply system be more transparent and better articulated - yes....

Does that make the game unplayable?? in my opinion no.

With say an 80% understanding of how the supply system works can you play the game well?? I think yes....

working 10yrs in an engineering consultancy Ive meet many professional engineers who simply cant function without 100% reliable data - however that really exists out side of a university setting.

Just try and let go of the need for 100% conceptual understanding and go with the flow....youd enjoy the experience much more.....

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/23/2022 7:19:36 AM

eddieballgame

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GazBot

mmmm....I think your trying to attain 100% understanding when only 70 to 80% is actually required to effectively play the game.

Could the supply system be more transparent and better articulated - yes....

Does that make the game unplayable?? in my opinion no.

With say an 80% understanding of how the supply system works can you play the game well?? I think yes....

working 10yrs in an engineering consultancy Ive meet many professional engineers who simply cant function without 100% reliable data - however that really exists out side of a university setting.

Just try and let go of the need for 100% conceptual understanding and go with the flow....youd enjoy the experience much more.....

This...

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/23/2022 1:30:19 PM

mroyer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieballgame

quote:

ORIGINAL: GazBot

mmmm....I think your trying to attain 100% understanding when only 70 to 80% is actually required to effectively play the game.

Could the supply system be more transparent and better articulated - yes....

Does that make the game unplayable?? in my opinion no.

With say an 80% understanding of how the supply system works can you play the game well?? I think yes....

working 10yrs in an engineering consultancy Ive meet many professional engineers who simply cant function without 100% reliable data - however that really exists out side of a university setting.

Just try and let go of the need for 100% conceptual understanding and go with the flow....youd enjoy the experience much more.....

This...

This...

As an engineer

, I tried VERY hard early on to fully understand the logistical system and know in detail the requirements of each branch of the net. It was very frustrating. Then, I just let go and started playing by intuition and it became MUCH more enjoyable. Sometimes I get into a bit of logistic trouble, but for the vast majority of situations, after gaining a lot of experience, you can run the system by gut-feel. I've been playing since day-one of the original release, and I'm still hazy on some of the underlying systems of this game.

"Let go Luke... Use the force."

-Mark R

< Message edited by mroyer -- 1/23/2022 1:31:54 PM >

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/23/2022 1:53:26 PM

solops

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Hey! I am an engineer, too. There seems to be a trend...
Total understanding is not necessary, but when the supply system cripples you and you cannot figure out why, that bothers me. Often it is lack of people or a resource that creates a cascade of failures throughout the economy, but sometimes I have had a surplus of all assets only to see things fall apart. Sometimes you get too many troops dependent on one railhead or truck point for it to handle. But sometimes nothing makes sense.

< Message edited by solops -- 1/23/2022 1:54:23 PM >

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/23/2022 2:41:57 PM

mroyer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: solops

Hey! I am an engineer, too. There seems to be a trend...
Total understanding is not necessary, but when the supply system cripples you and you cannot figure out why, that bothers me. Often it is lack of people or a resource that creates a cascade of failures throughout the economy, but sometimes I have had a surplus of all assets only to see things fall apart. Sometimes you get too many troops dependent on one railhead or truck point for it to handle. But sometimes nothing makes sense.

Agreed - all of that does happen from time to time, and it is usually difficult to predict or diagnose. For me, however, catastrophic logistic events seem to happen less often than they use to. Maybe that because I'm getting better at intuiting logistic needs, or maybe I've just been lucky walking blindfolded along the cliff-edge. I hope it's the former; it's probably the latter

.

-Mark R.

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/23/2022 4:19:54 PM

DasTactic

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I think GazBot's post about only needing 80% knowledge of how the Logistics system works to get enjoyment from the game is spot-on. I think that is about where my knowledge is with the game and that is enough to do a basic analysis when things go wrong and if something doesn't make sense have a bit of a guess as to what to do.

Much of the early advice about how to min-max the logistics in the game is no longer relevant - things like building truck stations one-hex outside for example. That used to be viable but not for a long time now. I tend to play with the Current Points (L key) turned on for much of the time and that is usually enough to see when things are getting tight. I make sure I'm building way more logistics than I need as well. And if things go wrong that I can't analyse I just pull back the gas-guzzlers close to the logistic flow and expect to sit and wait for a few turns.

If it helps, I'm currently streaming Shadow Empire live on my twitch channel most days (probably for the next few days) at about the time this post is going up. Much of the time is answering questions and it is great having so many of the community in there as well to also help explain things. A very collegial atmosphere. :) twitch.tv/dastactic The game in there is currently getting to a stage where the logistics will start to become a potential issue.

I haven't been war-gaming for as long as most of you it seems. I started with Afrika Corps (and fell in love with its logistics system) about 40 years ago.

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/23/2022 6:09:54 PM

arvcran2

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Hey Das! Am really looking forward to seeing some of the new content you will be churning out in the forthcoming months ... say around March or so ;).

I have had an interest in Shadow empire as well ... to be honest I think the logistics is very over complicated and buggy to be honest. There have been so many changes to address issues; it is a design nightmare lol. I did produce a problem with logistics not making sense in a very controlled early game situation with truck station's cargo hubs (can't remember the proper name) ... in particular this thread (though my pics seem to have been edited out ? Or maybe I have the wrong thread lol)

Edit: Here it is -> https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5053039

Supply Base is what I was trying to remember the name of.

< Message edited by arvcran2 -- 1/23/2022 6:13:27 PM >

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 1/23/2022 6:21:18 PM

arvcran2

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quote:

Sad. As I said, in my opinion this is one of those situations where the developer simply went too far and managed to take the fun out of the game.

I agree the logistics is a problem but, and it does border the frustration flipping point. But to say the game is no fun because of it just tells me you are fighting the urge to play the fun game because of that one frustration. But I do concure with the sentiment - I really wish that one thing would be more explainable ;).

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RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 2/14/2022 11:32:01 PM

finrodfelagund

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

I have to say, I just really love it when people talk about how one way to beat the problems with the logistics is to locate the railway station or the railhead in the hex immediately outside your second or third city.

I have honestly no clear idea why people keep saying that "one hex outside the city" part.
All it does is make truck logistics work hard, to get stuff too and from the railway. You are actively negating the very purpose of a rail connection. Which is to stop using Truck logistics for intercity transfers.

This might be about a later highspeed rail upgrade, but why worry about that if you have issues even getting Rail to work at all?

Hmm, without building outside of city, how can we upgrade rail to high speed then ? Disband and rebuild would take too much time and lost logistics I assume.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 27

RE: Sadly - Enough is Enough! - 2/19/2022 3:38:16 PM

solops

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That is the problem. I have thought that the solution for existing stations would be to make high speed a regular station upgrade that takes effect only on rail sections that have had new, high speed rail laid over the old rail.For new stations, just start with high speed and lay high speed track. Yeah, my idea requires a new level of track, kind of like dirt road to sealed road.

< Message edited by solops -- 2/19/2022 6:42:25 PM >

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