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RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 1:28:30 AM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhohltjr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Thought you'd want to know where things stand. ...

(there's a lot there and a lot different from UV). ...

Thanks Joel, I know this has been asked before but,... I recall a while back after the UV 2.30 patch was released
you guys were hinting that any further updates to UV might be more along the lines of what is developed for Witp.
Is that still a possibility or has Witp evolved to such an extent that it is not possible?

There is no wrong answer Joel. Thanks to you and everyone for UV and Witp.

WiTP has move so far fowared from UV that it is no longer a case of simply "porting" an ungrade across from WiTP to UV.

_____________________________

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to rhohltjr)

Post #: 31

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 1:53:13 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

Who had the attitude?

Most certainly me!

Now get along or I'll report a bug and delay the game!!!

< Message edited by Mr.Frag -- 6/2/2004 6:53:48 PM >

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 32

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 2:22:19 AM

Becket

Posts: 1269
Joined: 3/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy
it really is a mute point.

Or maybe it really should have been?

Kidding! I couldn't help it!

I do hate those mute points, though, it's always so hard to understand to know what they are talking about.

I...I can't stop..!!!

_____________________________

"The very word Moscow meant a lot to all of us....it meant all we had ever fought for" -Rokossovsky

(in reply to freeboy)

Post #: 33

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 2:34:49 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

You are an evil man Frag.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Who had the attitude?

Most certainly me!

Now get along or I'll report a bug and delay the game!!!

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 34

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 2:35:55 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

quote:

You are an evil man Frag.

Funny that you are far from the first to make that statement.

(in reply to denisonh)

Post #: 35

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 3:28:53 AM

Xargun

Posts: 3690
Joined: 2/14/2004
From: Near Columbus, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

What I don't know is exactly how long Matrix's production cycle is going to be, or how long it will take to get the game ready for digital download. My hope (and David is certainly trying for this) is that Matrix will have games to sell at Origins on June 24 and the digital download will start around the same time. Wish us luck.

I, for one, am planning on going to Origins simply to buy WitP. I am assuming we will have more updates as we get closer to that date so those of us who are planning to buy at Origins will know if it will be there or not.

Xargun

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 36

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 7:23:22 AM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

quote:

Do you really think it would hurt the game to be released imperfectly?

Well, since the published reviewers tend to come down hard on those games which are released imperfectly, it can actually seriously hurt the game's sales to do so. Matrix did open beta testing to members of this forum who had shown that they had the time and willingness to help test the game. While we all know that games will have some mistakes and need patches, I think that you'll find yourself in the minority in preferring that the developers release an unfinished copy. The fewer patches, the better..

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to freeboy)

Post #: 37

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 8:42:38 AM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

Your point is well made regarding reviewers, but my point is simply for myself the game would be "better" now.... timing is the key.. Matrix has already stated that it MAY be available at Origins... so no worries on getting it before June23.

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 38

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 12:03:38 PM

rawink

Posts: 194
Joined: 4/30/2002
From: Tallahassee, FL
Status: offline

Excellent news!!!!

I wore out my first UV CD and had to purchase a second.. Digital download would be great because I can save the source and not worry about my horrible CD-ROM care and handling practices!

and to some fo you other guys.. this thread was started by Joel to inform us of what is going on with the game and to give us a possible release date.

the fight over releasing a playable beta, while a valid discussion, doesn't really belong HERE does it? start your own thread instead of detracting from the spirit of this one if you don't mind. Then you can argue it for 40 pages if you want.

_____________________________

Robert
Fly, die.. rinse and repeat

(in reply to freeboy)

Post #: 39

Congrats! - 6/3/2004 3:00:20 PM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Thought you'd want to know where things stand. For the past few days we've had our programming list down to 1 or 2 items, but something keeps coming up that is important enough to fix. As of this afternoon we sent a version to testers that looked good, but I can't say if something else will come up.

The scenarios have been finished and unless we come up with a major data error, they should be good to go. The artwork is all done now as well.

For the past week we've been editing the manual and this will probably take a few more days to finish (there's a lot there and a lot different from UV). Since the exe needs additional testing on the recent changes, this shouldn't be a big problem.

So in short, we are within days of going gold unless something major develops unexpectedly. My guess is by next Monday we will be completely done.

What I don't know is exactly how long Matrix's production cycle is going to be, or how long it will take to get the game ready for digital download. My hope (and David is certainly trying for this) is that Matrix will have games to sell at Origins on June 24 and the digital download will start around the same time. Wish us luck.

Congrats to all hardworking people at Matrix/2by3 and BETA testers!

Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 40

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 3:17:16 PM

rhohltjr

Posts: 536
Joined: 4/27/2000
From: When I play pacific wargames, I expect smarter AI.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

WiTP has move so far fowared from UV that it is no longer a case of simply "porting" an ungrade across from WiTP to UV.

Thanks Raverdave. While that doesn't sound as good for UV, Witp sounds better and better
with every passing hour.

No wrong answer.

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 41

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 6:24:42 PM

Toro

Posts: 578
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: 16 miles southeast of Hell (Michigan, i.e.), US
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Wonderful news! For those of us who, many years back, first anticipated this game (remember, everyone, when UV was originally introduced as a scenario pack for WitP?), we thank you! Who above said it: "July is shot." And August, and September...

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 42

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 8:19:59 PM

Scott_USN

Posts: 715
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Eagle River, Alaska USA
Status: offline

Will the price be $69.95 or something like that?

(in reply to Toro)

Post #: 43

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 8:40:32 PM

DougAngle

Posts: 37
Joined: 4/4/2000
From: Arvada, Co USA
Status: offline

I'd better hurry up and get the yard work and all of the other 'Honey DO' list taken care of. Credit card is out and ready! Like the rest of the folks said, just get it right. Thanks Joel for keeping us posted.!

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 44

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 8:53:55 PM

kaleun

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

Credit card has been out for a week!

_____________________________

Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to DougAngle)

Post #: 45

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/3/2004 9:46:45 PM

Cap Mandrake

Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Becket

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy
it really is a mute point.

Or maybe it really should have been?

Kidding! I couldn't help it!

I do hate those mute points, though, it's always so hard to understand to know what they are talking about.

I...I can't stop..!!!

Now, now...be nice

_____________________________

(in reply to Becket)

Post #: 46

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 1:41:52 AM

Arnir

Posts: 482
Joined: 10/12/2002
From: Alberta. In Texas.
Status: offline

I'm waiting with credit card primed as well. I would gladly pay for it now so that I won't fritter the money away on food, rent or gas.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 47

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 3:33:28 AM

Hornblower

Posts: 1361
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: New York'er relocated to Chicago
Status: offline

Am I the only one who will be hinting for witp for fathers day, rather then another hammer or tie?

(in reply to Arnir)

Post #: 48

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 3:49:04 AM

kaleun

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline

Some of us don't have children to get in the way of playing

_____________________________

Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to Hornblower)

Post #: 49

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 7:49:01 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Your attitude in this matter is refreshingly old fashioned..., pride in your product.

As I said in the Dev forum a long time back when the word "patch" came up ... "that is demoralizing, it means we failed as a team."

It is really a pleasure working with 2by3. Even when they say they can't get something fixed they go off and fix it anyways. Just in the last week when we were all set for gold, Mike came along and completely gutted the TF routines and redid them from scratch. It caused a couple of major bugs and shook things up, but the end result is the odds on anything going wrong in "your" game is greatly reduced because it was done.

I was scratching my head wondering how insane these guys were to make such a large change at this late state, but it just shows how committed they are to getting it right no matter what.

While you might not be super happy because your favorite "XYZ" is not in the database, you will not be screaming because the game crashes on you every 15 minutes of order entry. This game can take you working for 24 hours entering in orders. It is *that* stable. "XYZ" can be dealt with in the editor, crashes can not.

Wow. Talk about different worlds we live in! I guess in the gaming world, having a game that does not generate and access violation or divide by zero exception is the sign of a "stable" bug-free softwary system. In our industry, and our firm, we haven't had a half dozen hard "traps" in deliverable code in over 20 years. Bugs are almost always errors in processing logic or lack of conformaty to contracted external specification. A stable system is a system that performs a billion financial settlement transactions over six months without a single processing error and one microsecond of down time.

Just a difference in cultures, I suppose. But then again, when you code in straight 'C', pass old-style pointers around, "roll your own library code vs using mature, stable, external toolkits, and use fixed data arrays, access violations are par for the course, I guess.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)

Post #: 50

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 7:58:29 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2Stepper

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

As I said in the Dev forum a long time back when the word "patch" came up ... "that is demoralizing, it means we failed as a team."

Nah, I wouldn't take it that way Frag. Though I can understand how you might... The community of people that buy wargames and games in general are almost "pre-programmed" to expect that SOMETHING will be amiss at release time because those that developed it were under a tight schedule. Then patches would follow...

While that's a sad story of the industry it's equally sad that most of us out here have gotten used to it. It is VERY refreshing to know that Matrix took the time and effort to make a great product that we all could enjoy... I'm sure it'll be a gem out of the box... and with regards to patches? Heck I'd just look at them as "developmental improvements".

I mean really, who ever said you can't improve upon perfection?

Patches are unvoidable. NASA is STILL delivering software patches to the shuttle systems even today. And that is for 20 year old software systems. I'm currently working on our 30th patch to a pre-paid card system that is only six years old!!!

Just because a game doesn't fall over with a c0000005 access violation or some divide by zero trap doesn't mean it is "stable" or correct. There is nothing like putting software into the hands of thousands of users to expose all sorts of things. Humans, afterall, are about as unpredictable a group as can be imagined. They will expose things the developers have never thought of because they will attempt to do things in a way no one on the development team would ever consider even trying!

But it appears 2x3 has gone the extra mile to make this game unusually solid, as games go (the buggiest class of software in the entire computing universe by a wide margin). The idea that users will be extactic because the thing doesn't fall over with a hard trap during a 12 hour orders phase is a sign of just how poor quality control and development environments are in this industry sector, as a whole. But hats off to these guys, they are trying awfully hard, epsecially considering the size of the development staff and the lack of decent toolkits they are using....

(in reply to 2Stepper)

Post #: 51

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 8:03:00 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

In a nutshell you make your error,"settle for playable .." no person in this forum wants a playable beta as the final product. I would not expect to "settle " for anything associated with matrix or 2by3. Calling me a dolt or selfish is your liberty, yet in a game that one player stated took 12 hours to input his first turn I will probably play many first turns just trying to "get it right". So my month of waiting, or however long it takes, days or weeks? This time really could be spent learning the nuts and bolts of what we all expect to be a fine game. As for myself it�s about learning and having fun. Do you really think it would hurt the game to be released imperfectly? Maybe it should be tested another year or two then? Ludicrous I know but these issues are not black and white, and while you seemingly want a flawless product I know there is no such thing.. ever. This is not a selfish proposition as you stated, in no way does releasing the game in its current form hurt the game or gaming community, neither matrix nor 2by3 are planning this so it really is a mute point.

Well, in the commercial business software world, software often remains in beta for a year to 18 months or more before released into production. The idea that commercial software is released with only a month or so of beta is actually a bit scary to me.....

(in reply to freeboy)

Post #: 52

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 8:25:04 AM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

hey zoom80 this game has been in BETA for months, where did you get the one month from... I said in this last month several forum members have expressed..

so.. maybe we will see this game soon.. if no new bugs show up

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 53

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 8:29:39 AM

2ndACR

Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

In a nutshell you make your error,"settle for playable .." no person in this forum wants a playable beta as the final product. I would not expect to "settle " for anything associated with matrix or 2by3. Calling me a dolt or selfish is your liberty, yet in a game that one player stated took 12 hours to input his first turn I will probably play many first turns just trying to "get it right". So my month of waiting, or however long it takes, days or weeks? This time really could be spent learning the nuts and bolts of what we all expect to be a fine game. As for myself it�s about learning and having fun. Do you really think it would hurt the game to be released imperfectly? Maybe it should be tested another year or two then? Ludicrous I know but these issues are not black and white, and while you seemingly want a flawless product I know there is no such thing.. ever. This is not a selfish proposition as you stated, in no way does releasing the game in its current form hurt the game or gaming community, neither matrix nor 2by3 are planning this so it really is a mute point.

Well, in the commercial business software world, software often remains in beta for a year to 18 months or more before released into production. The idea that commercial software is released with only a month or so of beta is actually a bit scary to me.....

You just have to trust the gods of wargames Joel Billings and Gary Grigsby. I have owned and played just about every game these 2 have been involved in. They have my complete trust.

Freeboy,

WITP has only been in Beta testing for a little over a month. Alpha testing for months.
But it was very good Alpha testing.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 54

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 8:31:18 AM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

ally, I am way off then, I did indeed think this had been in BETA since mid feb or march my error

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 55

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 8:38:11 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

hey zoom80 this game has been in BETA for months, where did you get the one month from... I said in this last month several forum members have expressed..
so.. maybe we will see this game soon.. if no new bugs show up

Actually, that was Alpha. Beta is AFTER the feature freeze. And the beta is a handful of human players playing the game without the benifit of sophisticated automated testing systems designed to execute every line of code in the system many times over. Computer vs Computer doesn't come close to a real automated testing suite. And I doubt anyone in the gaming industry has a robust regression test suite. How many times have we seen patches break more things than they fix???

(in reply to freeboy)

Post #: 56

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 8:40:26 AM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

In a nutshell you make your error,"settle for playable .." no person in this forum wants a playable beta as the final product. I would not expect to "settle " for anything associated with matrix or 2by3. Calling me a dolt or selfish is your liberty, yet in a game that one player stated took 12 hours to input his first turn I will probably play many first turns just trying to "get it right". So my month of waiting, or however long it takes, days or weeks? This time really could be spent learning the nuts and bolts of what we all expect to be a fine game. As for myself it�s about learning and having fun. Do you really think it would hurt the game to be released imperfectly? Maybe it should be tested another year or two then? Ludicrous I know but these issues are not black and white, and while you seemingly want a flawless product I know there is no such thing.. ever. This is not a selfish proposition as you stated, in no way does releasing the game in its current form hurt the game or gaming community, neither matrix nor 2by3 are planning this so it really is a mute point.

Well, in the commercial business software world, software often remains in beta for a year to 18 months or more before released into production. The idea that commercial software is released with only a month or so of beta is actually a bit scary to me.....

You just have to trust the gods of wargames Joel Billings and Gary Grigsby. I have owned and played just about every game these 2 have been involved in. They have my complete trust.

Freeboy,

WITP has only been in Beta testing for a little over a month. Alpha testing for months.
But it was very good Alpha testing.

Well, I;ve rewritten almost every Grigsby game I've gotten the source code to over the years, including PACWAR to fix a litany of bugs and AI stupidity.....

(in reply to 2ndACR)

Post #: 57

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 10:38:23 AM

Adnan Meshuggi

Posts: 2220
Joined: 8/2/2001
Status: offline

Hm, is it possible that one of the needed fixes is the "in harbours only such ships could be hit by torpedos who are before other ships-bug" ?

just kidding....

honestly, i think this game will have a lot bugs even the betas couldn�t find.
Why ? because it is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo big... like TOR you have do play a lot games with a lot different kind of clicks...

so why not give it us now, so we all cold beta test a little more ? Compared to so many other games it will be perfect stable, i bet.
And i belive we all (beside this evil lucky betas) have to learn a lot about its mechanism... so give it us now, make a patch say in 2 months with the improvements we will send you to optimize and we all are happy.

we... because we could play it
you.... because you could spend a 3 years holliday at hawaii from all the money we send you

hehe... just a idea.

The thing about copy defence system... i too think it isn�t neccessary.... i have bought uv and gave it to my brother - but in that time i didn�t play it (even if i had made a copy! I dislike the idea of a damaged CD and that i have to pay a lot money for a new version (and more important the TIME i can�t play without the CD...)

UV�s only disadvantage was its Scenario-character.... for this we have now witp.... i will download the game AND buy it as an CD (if i could get it in europe)... one version for me, one for my brother as a present (so i could kick his ass in a pbem...)

Just my 2 cents...

oh last question, how many Gigabyte will the download have ? For me no problem (i have 1 Mbit/s but if something is broken and you have do do a 4 GB-Download again this is just frustraiting :) )

_____________________________

Don't tickle yourself with some moralist crap thinking we have some sort of obligation to help these people. We're there for our self-interest, and anything we do to be 'nice' should be considered a courtesy dweebespit

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 58

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 3:18:37 PM

GBirkn

Posts: 249
Joined: 5/6/2004
From: the briny deep
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Well, I;ve rewritten almost every Grigsby game I've gotten the source code to over the years, including PACWAR to fix a litany of bugs and AI stupidity.....

I didn't know they released the source code! What sort of a license is it under? Are there any plans to release the code to UV, so we can contribute some help that might eventually find its way into WITP?

_____________________________

"War is the remedy our enemies have chosen, and I say let's give them all they want." -- Gen. W. T. Sherman

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 59

RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/4/2004 8:47:48 PM

ZOOMIE1980

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GBirkn

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980
Well, I;ve rewritten almost every Grigsby game I've gotten the source code to over the years, including PACWAR to fix a litany of bugs and AI stupidity.....

I didn't know they released the source code! What sort of a license is it under? Are there any plans to release the code to UV, so we can contribute some help that might eventually find its way into WITP?

The old Apple II games were easy. The game disks contained the AppleSoft basic code right on them, all you had to do was boot to ProDos and extract it and go from there. I got the PACWAR code from one of guys that did some work on the Matrix reissue of the game. And for those who thought Grigsby was such a great programmer, all you have to do is read the "What's Changed" list to see just how bad the original PACWAR really was!

Gary is a TREMENDOUS game designer. Pure genius. But he's NOT much of a programmer, at least, he's not anymore. The way he used the same data array in the old Apple II game for different game entities was quite clever at the time when we had 128K of memory to play with and those tiny 360K floppy disks. But in this day and age of 1GB ram and 300GB hardrives, and myraiad of toolkits, an ever maturing C++ ISO standard and tremendous compilers, using the same general techniques now is not only not warranted, but not even desirable at all, because that type of coding is a bug waiting to happen, and it doesn't scale well at all.

(in reply to GBirkn)

Post #: 60

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