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RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 9:15:20 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		I'll never understand how anyone can complain about $70. I paid $80 for War in Russia (that is, the 8-bit version for the Atari) in the mid 80's

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Post #: 151
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 9:16:41 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

On the other hand Frag will pay any price.. or will he be rewarded for his faithful service with a free copy?


I joined the beta program to cure some of those *I hate UV* bugs that always cost me CV's coupled with some bugs with fast transports that drove both Leo & I nuts.

The reality is that 80% of the folks in this forum will buy WitP, 20% probably will not and wait until a pirate copy surfaces. Matrix may sell another couple of thousand copies outside the forum, but thats about it.

The average sales for wargames is generally less then 10,000 copies. This being in the super grog catagory will probably halve that number.

At $70 x 5,000 we have $350,000. 4-5 people working for 2 years = 35,000 to 43,750 a year.

I don't know about you, but thats not exactly in the high catagory. Thats just paying the guys to do the work. Show me where the profit comes from?

As far as me getting a free copy, not going to happen, i'll be buying a couple copies to keep these guys in business.

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Post #: 152
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 9:23:35 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		I believe Matrix has stated that they dont expect to make a profit.....but there's always hope.

Its a very specialized market and not overly large.

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Post #: 153
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 9:24:30 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		maybe we should start a fund.. save the baby programers

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Post #: 154
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 9:25:48 PM   
ioticus

 

Posts: 187
Joined: 6/13/2004
Status: offline 		I'll pay almost any price for a good wargame. If the reviews are good from people I trust and there are few bugs, I'll gladly lay down my $70. But the quality has to be there. Most importantly (for me) the AI has to be good.

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Post #: 155
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 9:38:59 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy
If I sell witp for 10.00 and sell 2000000 copies the total would be 200,000,000. in gross sales.

Hey, come be my banker!

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Post #: 156
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 9:44:11 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Becket

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy
If I sell witp for 10.00 and sell 2000000 copies the total would be 200,000,000. in gross sales.


You also would be eclipsing the sales of mass market titles like Warcraft, the Sims, etc. Do you really think that's a reasonable example? You set up a horrible straw man with your numbers, which have no basis in reality. After all, your "5000 at 70" example sets forth that slightly less than one-half of the number of forum members will buy the game. If the best selling Matrix game only has the same number of purchasers as Matrix has forum members, then 5000 sales would be a success, no?

One would think that Matrix/2by3 used Uncommon Valor as a yardstick for the number of likely customers.

Without data, all you guys are doing are complaining about a high price. If you feel you are being gouged, then vote with your wallet. If you feel the price is reasonable for the product (I do...board wargames of comparable scale cost more!), then buy.


What are the units sold to date for UV? I'm sure that is the basis for the pricing of this one. This is the single most important and difficult issue on the business side of commercial "off-the-shelf" software, gaming or otherwise. At what exact pricing point do you maximize your profit potential? No one really knows; they just try and get reasonably close. And bigger firms spend millions trying find just where that price point should be.

Those who claim that $70 is robbery are probably basing that on prices for much more mainstream titles that sell in the 100,000+ unit range. Those who claim they'd be willing to spen $100+ are equally absurd, letting their fanaticism cloud their reasoning. I'd live without it at that price, no matter how "good" it was. But $70, seems, to me, to "feel" about right for this. And as stated is the going rate for a similar type board game.

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Post #: 157
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 9:47:06 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		"robbery" is what the buffoons who stole the source code for Half Life 2 did

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Post #: 158
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 9:52:59 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		I will buy whatever the price is. I've spend hundred and hundred hours playing UV, that is easily ten times more any game I never played before.. so basically I can pay up to ten times the normal price for a mainsytream game. But I will be happy to pay 70 dollars to Matrix, except that with digital loading only (that means no box to be bought in a French shop, as I did for UV) that will be an international buying for me and my French bank will charge me abusebily (as always) for it...

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Post #: 159
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 9:56:42 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Admiral DadMan ,
That was a test.. you win the prize
I am not worried about paying the price at 70.00 and I do remember those costly games in the 80's that with inflation would probably be even higher than 69.99. I am concerned that a game only available for dd,thus no shelf space could seem overpriced to any newbie.. but I do not personnaly find the price too high, just thinking about those future games.. each happy customer today buys your product tomorrow.. I would by any gg game, wouldn't you? Is this a super grog game.. probably..
Another point is that there is vertually 0 cost post production / number of sold copies.. just a thought.. Zommiethinks 70.00 is a good pp(price point) I think 50 or 60 is better in these regards, but please do not missinterpret my motives thinking I want these folk not to make money as The very oposite is true...

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Post #: 160
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 9:58:51 PM   
brisd


Posts: 614
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: San Diego, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I'll never understand how anyone can complain about $70. I paid $80 for War in Russia (that is, the 8-bit version for the Atari) in the mid 80's


Same here. But some people are spoiled by piracy and cheap games. I am curious what World At War will be priced at? It will be more mass-market. I agree with Mr Frag, I'd pay $100 for this game, maybe not pre-order it without some independant reviews but still buy it.

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Post #: 161
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 10:03:31 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I agree this looks like a timeless classic... piracy really is a sore point, my favorite anti pirate rant is the China market.. where all kinds of things are copied and very lax enforcment. mext is the file sharers.. music etc... code breaking and stealing games or others' works should be punished, but not as sevearly as those who profit by illigal selling of illigal things... just an fyi watching TORO TORO TORO last night gave me an idea, could the US fleat and airplanes on a random start be set to be alerted at pearl? Would I need the to us the editor?

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Post #: 162
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 10:11:48 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		Perhaps they should just go the online game route. You pay $20 for the game, then $10 a month for the right to run the game. Throw in the first month free, but after that you need to keep coming back and paying more forever!

Lets see, that would bring the price up to (12 months x 5 years x $10) - $10 (free month) + initial $20.

Hey it's cheap! only $610!

Other saving grace ... no piracy at all. You swipe a copy, it busts whoever donated it and dies after 30 days.

< Message edited by Mr.Frag -- 6/14/2004 3:13:30 PM >

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Post #: 163
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 10:14:34 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		online gaming that is a pay as you go, as opposed to a forum based free service like matrix sponsered bhq are not my thing, very pricy in the long run..
Frag, are you by any chance being sarcastic?

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Post #: 164
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 10:20:20 PM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		Ok, Bill Parcells time:

"I apologize in advance if I offend somebody..."

QUIT BITCHING ABOUT THE PRICE FOR GOODNESS SAKE. ALL THESE REPLIES ARE FILLING UP MY EMAIL. LET'S GET BACK TO TALKING ABOUT THE GAME.

I buy maybe 2 or 3 games in a YEAR and play the hell out of them. UV caused many a bleary-eyed morinings. Think I paid 60 or 70 bucks for that puppy, and I got my money's worth, just ask my wife .

Consider this: In addition to the game, you also get a full-featured editor. How many of us bought Carriers at War for $40 USD, and then bought the editor ($30 USD) on top of that? And then CaWII? I loved that game so much I ended up hating it in the end because I wanted more.

So, think of WitP costing you $45 and the editor costing $25. It takes you right to $70.

I'm going to stop reading posts in this thread because... well just because, damn it.

It's a fair court. (and no talking to the audience.)

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Post #: 165
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 10:24:26 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Frag, are you by any chance being sarcastic?


who me?

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Post #: 166
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 10:26:11 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brisd

Same here. But some people are spoiled by piracy and cheap games.


Then i have the web site for them

http://www.cheapass.com/

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Post #: 167
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 10:27:26 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

, could the US fleat and airplanes on a random start be set to be alerted at pearl? Would I need the to us the editor?


already done....select the "variable start" toggle.....one of the options is an alerted Pearl harbor.....

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Post #: 168
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 10:29:29 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

one of the options is an alerted Pearl harbor.....


And behind door number two is the "OMG!!!! I lost both Allied CV's!!!!"

No free rides here, sorry.

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Post #: 169
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 10:54:23 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Losing both cv's sounds about right, alerted pearl might save some of those beloved bb's
does the ijn have 3cvl at game start and 6 cv.. could some of thesee be used to attack sanfransisco, or is that too far for the first turn rule?

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Post #: 170
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 10:55:55 PM   
denisonh


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline 		TORO TORO TORO sounds like a bunch of bull to me......

quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I agree this looks like a timeless classic... piracy really is a sore point, my favorite anti pirate rant is the China market.. where all kinds of things are copied and very lax enforcment. mext is the file sharers.. music etc... code breaking and stealing games or others' works should be punished, but not as sevearly as those who profit by illigal selling of illigal things... just an fyi watching TORO TORO TORO last night gave me an idea, could the US fleat and airplanes on a random start be set to be alerted at pearl? Would I need the to us the editor?


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Post #: 171
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:04:00 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		lol.. is it TORA TORA TORA? oops

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Post #: 172
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:04:23 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		The new spanish armada.. toro toro toro

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Post #: 173
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:05:34 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		why do i suddenly have an image of mass squadrons of lawn mowers appearing over the skies of Pearl Harbor....?

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Post #: 174
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:11:00 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Losing both cv's sounds about right, alerted pearl might save some of those beloved bb's


Oh no, don't get that idea, you *still* loose some BB's ... The CV's go down during the afternoon phase. The morning phase *still* hits the BB's

You can't make the west coast with the speed boost on turn 1. You also can't make Efate, Noumea, PM, or any of the other places you might think of trying.

It is to simulate ships are were already loaded and on their way. You can't even make the back side of Borneo.

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Post #: 175
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:11:24 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

On the other hand Frag will pay any price.. or will he be rewarded for his faithful service with a free copy?


I joined the beta program to cure some of those *I hate UV* bugs that always cost me CV's coupled with some bugs with fast transports that drove both Leo & I nuts.

The reality is that 80% of the folks in this forum will buy WitP, 20% probably will not and wait until a pirate copy surfaces. Matrix may sell another couple of thousand copies outside the forum, but thats about it.

The average sales for wargames is generally less then 10,000 copies. This being in the super grog catagory will probably halve that number.

At $70 x 5,000 we have $350,000. 4-5 people working for 2 years = 35,000 to 43,750 a year.

I don't know about you, but thats not exactly in the high catagory. Thats just paying the guys to do the work. Show me where the profit comes from?

As far as me getting a free copy, not going to happen, i'll be buying a couple copies to keep these guys in business.


Yes, at those comp rates, doing these games is a labor of love.... a lot like teaching school or being career military....

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Post #: 176
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:26:27 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

Perhaps they should just go the online game route. You pay $20 for the game, then $10 a month for the right to run the game. Throw in the first month free, but after that you need to keep coming back and paying more forever!

Lets see, that would bring the price up to (12 months x 5 years x $10) - $10 (free month) + initial $20.

Hey it's cheap! only $610!

Other saving grace ... no piracy at all. You swipe a copy, it busts whoever donated it and dies after 30 days.



This server idea, is a pretty good one, actually. Some of you may remember a massive-multiplayer, turn based war/conquest game game that a group named WolfPack did a while back called "Empire". Pretty cheesy little game but the model was a nice one, kind of takeoff from the EverQuest thing. They used a series of servers and had lots of downloadable "clients". It was an open source game. At first it was a text only game, but eventually one could get GUI clients for Windows.

Of course, for a game like this it would have to have a completely rewritten data handling system, probably an SQL based one, and a pretty sophisticated comm layer coded with modern compression techniques. But it would be vastly superior to PBEM games and you could have 30 day freebie logons with limited, free, downloadable GUI clients or hell, just make the whole Client side a HTML/Javascript or a Java app so it runs anywhere someone has access to a browser/JVM.... Then have a nominal $7-10 per month subscription rate.....

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Post #: 177
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:29:39 PM   
ZOOMIE1980

 

Posts: 1284
Joined: 4/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh

TORO TORO TORO sounds like a bunch of bull to me......



Sound like an attack of the lawn mowers to me....

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Post #: 178
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:40:15 PM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
Joined: 5/29/2002
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Considering the length of the turns, the length of the game, I would not buy thisd game if it was one of those pay as you go kind of games. I would be concerned about the site that runs it going under.
On the other hand, I would pay $100 for the game. Probably $110... well may be even $150 but I would want a map with it

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Post #: 179
RE: Quick update on development progress. - 6/14/2004 11:40:49 PM   
GameTester


Posts: 156
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		$70 is very reasonable for a game with this depth. The serious wargamer will get many hundreds of hours of play out of the thing. Really, it's a bargain.

For the non-serious, it is probably best if you saved your money and bought something else. Remember, it will take a few weeks just to figure out how to start playing.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)
Post #: 180
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