RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early?

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RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/11/2004 10:29:00 PM

hithere

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on the other hand...there is no way to write a code that can make EVERYTHING possible. personnelly I think Matrix/2by3 has a good balance. In the words of one of my fav-o-rite actors, "you have to adapt, improvise, overcome"

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Post #: 31

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 6:58:45 AM

Raverdave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

.....so the "90" exp rating is a admitedly a bit on the "generous" side. (same problem exists with some of the Oz divisions too that returned from the Middle east....they also had a serious working up period before they became Jungle experts)

What ????? The Aussie Second AIF Divisons 7th and 9th are right where they should be inregards to experience............these guys had been in combat for nearly two years ! I'll concede that they were NOT experianced in Jungle fighting, but their combat experience far out weights the lack of jungle training.

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 32

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:43:24 AM

brisd

Posts: 614
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From: San Diego, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunnergoz

Well, they got it out "mostly" right, which is something. I'd guess that they wanted it to be 99% on the stability/playability side when it went out the door and left the "polishing and grinding" up to the post-release "play, pout, plead and patch" process that naturally occurs between game developers and customer fan base...especially one as vocal, knowledgeable and demanding as this crowd! I'm confident it will all be worked out and that the engine is fundamentally sound and up to the task.

I have no problem with OOB issues being corrected via patches, the game is very playable right now. And I agree the game needed to get out into the wargaming community so these things can be found before we all start playing each other. I just don't play games that require house rules to make up for errors. It would take alot of work to deploy the Marines as they were historically, by regiment vs division. I suppose someone could create each individual regiment and have them as 2nd Marine division/1, /2, etc. Then if the player combines them, he gets the whole division? And I agree having the 2nd Marine Division at 0 percent disorg and 90 experience on Dec 8, 1941 is generous. Make those grunts earn the experience in combat. Training will only take a unit so far, they got to 'see the elephant' to be elite troops. I look forward to tweaks of the game for years to come.

Edit: make that 90 Experience

< Message edited by brisd -- 7/12/2004 11:09:51 AM >

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Post #: 33

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 3:02:17 PM

Tophat

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Oh for pity's sake............click the divide unit button!!!!!!!!!!! You get 3 regiments of Marines...........click on each regiment and take a look at it.I am leaving the reg with the most "INFANTRY" as opposed to secondline troops in it in the states.This simulates to my mind the best combat unit going on deployment to Iceland! As for the 3rd NZ Div leave it in Wellington till December 42',possibly longer! The game is a jem! How can you not play it? This OB issue is a hiccup,certainly not worth derailing playing the game over!!!!!!

(in reply to brisd)

Post #: 34

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 4:08:37 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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The game uses a lot of game "mechanics" to abstract some the historical facts. Even though some strong combat units are available way too early, there is a distinct shortage of HQ support, Base force support, and the bases themselves (Nomeau, Efate/Luganville) are much too small to be used effectively for any sort of an offensive util well into second half of 1942. Add to that, very little carrier support will make offensive operations in the Solomons difficult well into 1943 no matter how strong your ground units may be (losing half the 2nd Marines enroute to Lunga kinda hurts your chances a bit....), if the Japanese player choses to keep heavy carrier deployments in the area. Lose your five early carriers in 1942 and you can practically forget any action in the Solomons in 1942 no matter how many powerful ground forces show up.

But, they do try to accurately simulate the OOB, so I suppose we are going to see some significant OOB patches. YOu also have an editor, don't forget....

(in reply to Tophat)

Post #: 35

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 6:43:25 PM

siRkid

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We have decided to attach the US 2nd Marine Division to SOPAC and damage a lot of the elements.

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(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 36

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 7:24:11 PM

Black Cat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

We have decided to attach the US 2nd Marine Division to SOPAC and damage a lot of the elements.

One again, with the Game out less then 2 weeks the US player gets screwed by the OOB Fanatics.

The 2nd. Marines are the only unit you get that is deployable early to the SOPAC to counter an early Japanese Dec.-Jan " Rush" with the Elite SBF`s to Noumea ( which starts witha large Airfield ) and worse, Suva. they get there, dig in to level 8 Forts, and put the Naval Betty`s and Nells, with Zero Fighter support in to cut your supply lines to Oz and good luck reinforcing Australia or even winning the Game.

It`s Island Hopping Japanese style, they forget about Buna and the Shortlands until later.

At least make it a Brigade or a strong, high rated Rgt, there is plenty of evidence above that it was that and was designed as a " Fire Brigade " to counter the Japanese Strategy I outlined above. I mean you ( Matrix ) have gone to the extreme to make the Pearl Army Divisions restricted to the Centeral Pacific, and the Oz and NZ and rest of the West Coast LCU`s are locked up as well.

It`s really F****** amazing

, as soon as a few Non Tester type guys who have clearly never even finished the Campaign, start complaning on the Forums about OB stuff like this, and the US ASW routines, you guys want to rush to change the original Grigsby design because these people are too dumb or lazy to use the editor to make the Game the way They Want It.

What`s up with that Kid, really ??????

(in reply to siRkid)

Post #: 37

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 8:08:13 PM

Oznoyng

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

We have decided to attach the US 2nd Marine Division to SOPAC and damage a lot of the elements.

One again, with the Game out less then 2 weeks the US player gets screwed by the OOB Fanatics.

The 2nd. Marines are the only unit you get that is deployable early to the SOPAC to counter an early Japanese Dec.-Jan " Rush" with the Elite SBF`s to Noumea ( which starts witha large Airfield ) and worse, Suva. they get there, dig in to level 8 Forts, and put the Naval Betty`s and Nells, with Zero Fighter support in to cut your supply lines to Oz and good luck reinforcing Australia or even winning the Game.

It`s Island Hopping Japanese style, they forget about Buna and the Shortlands until later.

At least make it a Brigade or a strong, high rated Rgt, there is plenty of evidence above that it was that and was designed as a " Fire Brigade " to counter the Japanese Strategy I outlined above. I mean you ( Matrix ) have gone to the extreme to make the Pearl Army Divisions restricted to the Centeral Pacific, and the Oz and NZ and rest of the West Coast LCU`s are locked up as well.

It`s really F****** amazing , as soon as a few Non Tester type guys who have clearly never even finished the Campaign, start complaning on the Forums about OB stuff like this, and the US ASW routines, you guys want to rush to change the original Grigsby design because these people are too dumb or lazy to use the editor to make the Game the way They Want It.

What`s up with that Kid, really ??????

(in reply to Black Cat)

Post #: 38

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 8:19:38 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

We have decided to attach the US 2nd Marine Division to SOPAC and damage a lot of the elements.

One again, with the Game out less then 2 weeks the US player gets screwed by the OOB Fanatics.

The 2nd. Marines are the only unit you get that is deployable early to the SOPAC to counter an early Japanese Dec.-Jan " Rush" with the Elite SBF`s to Noumea ( which starts witha large Airfield ) and worse, Suva. they get there, dig in to level 8 Forts, and put the Naval Betty`s and Nells, with Zero Fighter support in to cut your supply lines to Oz and good luck reinforcing Australia or even winning the Game.

It`s Island Hopping Japanese style, they forget about Buna and the Shortlands until later.

At least make it a Brigade or a strong, high rated Rgt, there is plenty of evidence above that it was that and was designed as a " Fire Brigade " to counter the Japanese Strategy I outlined above. I mean you ( Matrix ) have gone to the extreme to make the Pearl Army Divisions restricted to the Centeral Pacific, and the Oz and NZ and rest of the West Coast LCU`s are locked up as well.

It`s really F****** amazing , as soon as a few Non Tester type guys who have clearly never even finished the Campaign, start complaning on the Forums about OB stuff like this, and the US ASW routines, you guys want to rush to change the original Grigsby design because these people are too dumb or lazy to use the editor to make the Game the way They Want It.

What`s up with that Kid, really ??????

I know in PACWAR you got the Americal Division very early. It was not anything you could go on the offensive but it was enough to garrison SOPAC until the bigger Marine Divisions started showing up? Wonder why that division isn't even in the game?

And those early Central Pacific divisions are HUGE! Problem is, there's no HQ's to go with them....

(in reply to Black Cat)

Post #: 39

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 8:25:34 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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And I wonder what's the PP cost of transferring on of those enormous 330+ assualt value Aussie home defense divisions to SOPAC?

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Post #: 40

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 8:35:37 PM

Black Cat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

I am a relatively disinterested observer here, since I had no initial opinion either way. In UV, I played USN for the most part, so I can hardly be considered a Jap fanboy. However, from my reading of the thread, 2MD comes into the game too early and with too much capability compared to historical fact. Jap fanboys or not, requesting that the OOB adhere to historical fact as much as possible is reasonable. Matrix agreeing and fixing the OOB is not a capitulation to any "fanboys". As the US, the first six months of the war were grim. Suggesting that it makes life tough on the US not to have that unit early on strikes me as "allied fanboy propaganda" when facts support a reduced capability.

As for the ASW side of the game, Allied ASW seems too effective to me too. Reading of the boards and surfing the web for info on Jap sub ops, the accuracy of the USN ASW seems excessive. On the other hand, Jap subs are used differently in WitP than they were historically. Some of the losses can be attributed to that, but the numbers seem to be inflated anyway.

Dear Disinterested Observer

San Diego is a large Naval and Marine Base, units of the 2nd. Marines were there, as well as Marines off the damaged Pearl Harbor Ships.

In the event of the Japanese deployment I outlined above, historical or WITP Gameplay, which you managed to completely avoid discussing, ( preferring to attribute "Fanboyism" to my point.) they, or the West Coast Divisions, would have been used in SOPAC in some form. I also find it interesting you bring the words Fanboy to the debate.....perhaps my opening statement ?

You also don`t seem to grasp the implications of the " locked" US / Aussie LCU`s in the event of a AI move due South, which Garry may indeed have programmed into the Game, or a smart Japanese PBEM player would do.

My objection is also the RUSH to change things in the Program without any idea of how they affect the long AI Campaign, which most of the buyers of the Game will play, as well a sthe fact that people can choose to not use units or change them in the editor.

As for the US ASW effectiveness, as many find it realistic as do not, please note that I never attributed Japanese Fanboyism to those who do NOT.

< Message edited by Black Cat -- 7/12/2004 6:53:02 PM >

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Post #: 41

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 8:44:09 PM

Black Cat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

And I wonder what's the PP cost of transferring on of those enormous 330+ assualt value Aussie home defense divisions to SOPAC?

Exactly !!! You can`t come close to affording to pay the PP on those or the US west coast Divisions early, if ever..

.

The answer to the 2nd. Division issue is to decrease the PP cost of those to give the US " Fanboy`s "

some flexability, and release the 2nd. Marines to SOPac later. Or just leave it the way it is.

Nice to hear from someone who had played alot of Pac War and understands the underlying issues, which are huge for Gameplay.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 42

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 8:49:16 PM

Arnir

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I don't know when these divisions should come into play or not, but speaking for myself only, I want to be in the position of the US commander. If the division was there then let me use it, but if it wasn't really available for my use then I shouldn't be able to use it. World War II was never balanced for gameplay.

Look on the bright side (for both sides) if any changes aren't up to snuff, we can use the editor to change them back.

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Post #: 43

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 8:50:13 PM

Black Cat

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[/quote]

I know in PACWAR you got the Americal Division very early. It was not anything you could go on the offensive but it was enough to garrison SOPAC until the bigger Marine Divisions started showing up? Wonder why that division isn't even in the game?

And those early Central Pacific divisions are HUGE! Problem is, there's no HQ's to go with them....
[/quote]

The Americal isn`t in the Game

Your SURE about that ? Perhaps it`s listed as it`s number ???

That was your quick release Garrision units for SOPac.....and now they want to lose the 2nd. Marines ?WTF is up here ?

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 44

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 8:56:08 PM

Tophat

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Americal Div or the HQ atleast is in the game.......think its 55 days out from showingup for me!

Even the critic starter of the thread said that a Regiment of the second went to garrison Samoa! So it was used as the "Fire Brigade" that blackCat is talking about.
Kid,what level are you reducing the 2 avaliable rgts to?
Is the 3rd NZ Div being removed? Or is an HQ for that formation going to be made avaliable?

(in reply to Black Cat)

Post #: 45

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:00:08 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

Your SURE about that ? Perhaps it`s listed as it`s number ???

That was your quick release Garrision units for SOPac.....and now they want to lose the 2nd. Marines ?WTF is up here ?

I haven't noticed it at all yet? I'm sitting about 1/20/42 and no Amercial Division is on the map, as such. I do have the completely decked out 2nd Marines, though, available in SD on the very first turn. Maybe they mislabled it and THAT was SUPPOSED to be the Americal????? Which would make more sense, I guess.

Bottom line, the US had at least a division size force, if not a particularly powerful one, available to garrison the main SOPAC base pretty much from the get-go to prevent the AI or human Jap player from getting ridiculous too early.

< Message edited by ZOOMIE1980 -- 7/12/2004 7:00:28 PM >

(in reply to Black Cat)

Post #: 46

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:02:59 PM

Arnir

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I have to admit my ignorance for the game's programming, but why would it be such a big deal to have the 2nd USMC broken down into regiments at the start of the game? Have the proper regiment in San Diego and have the rest come in as reinforcements. This lets the regiment be used. What am I missing here?

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Post #: 47

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:10:22 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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Programmatically, it might be difficult to bring in the 2nd Marines peicemeal in that fashion, and then later combine them together. The units in the game get delivered in the final form. I.E you get the 27th Division delivered as the ENTIRE 27th division. You can divide it later, if you want to, but it gets delivered as a DIVISION, not a series of brigades. And that's likely the problem with the 2nd Marines. They probably have to be delivered as a complete division, albeit maybe a highly "damaged" one.

But the FIRST full US division available for SOPAC is supposed to be the Americal Division. Well before the 1st Marines and damned sure WAAAAYYYY before the 2nd Marines. And I don't know where the hell that one is??? Maybe has yet to arrive (1/20/42)? But again, the US MUST have at least one full division or it's equivalent in regiments or brigades to adequately garrison SOPAC early on for game ballance......

(in reply to Arnir)

Post #: 48

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:21:00 PM

brisd

Posts: 614
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From: San Diego, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arnir

I don't know when these divisions should come into play or not, but speaking for myself only, I want to be in the position of the US commander. If the division was there then let me use it, but if it wasn't really available for my use then I shouldn't be able to use it. World War II was never balanced for gameplay.

Look on the bright side (for both sides) if any changes aren't up to snuff, we can use the editor to change them back.

My point exactly. Problem is, some people won't play a modified scenario or use house rules. I have no problem with any available US units, except for home guard divisons, being available to deploy wherever the US player decides. My only gripe is having a full strength elite US Marine division available when it wasn't. Let's throw out history altogether and start with all the units (Taiho, Essex, Iowa, etc.) shall we? That way the US player can be in Tokyo by end of 43 eh?

The US should be able to take the Marines and move them WHEREEVER, that was their designed role. SO please send a few regiments to Noumea, those units are worth lots of VP's

. This discussion doesn't mean the game isn't playable, just that with any detailed wargame, OOB issues are bound to happen. The designers did a fantastic job IMHO.

_____________________________

"I propose to fight it out on this line if it takes all summer."-Note sent with Congressman Washburne from Spotsylvania, May 11, 1864, to General Halleck. - General Ulysses S. Grant

(in reply to Arnir)

Post #: 49

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:23:52 PM

Arnir

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

But the FIRST full US division available for SOPAC is supposed to be the Americal Division. Well before the 1st Marines and damned sure WAAAAYYYY before the 2nd Marines. And I don't know where the hell that one is??? Maybe has yet to arrive (1/20/42)? But again, the US MUST have at least one full division or it's equivalent in regiments or brigades to adequately garrison SOPAC early on for game ballance......

From the database editor it appears that the American Division (Location 2874) arrive 420207 (which I assume is Feb 7 1942). I haven't figured out where, however. It is attached to SOPAC, so would that mean it arrives wherever SOPAC HQ is then located?

< Message edited by Arnir -- 7/12/2004 1:25:24 PM >

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Post #: 50

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:30:20 PM

Nikademus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

What ????? The Aussie Second AIF Divisons 7th and 9th are right where they should be inregards to experience............these guys had been in combat for nearly two years ! I'll concede that they were NOT experianced in Jungle fighting, but their combat experience far out weights the lack of jungle training.

i disagree. Based on Eric Bergrud's book, the Oz troops first had to learn (the hard way) the lessons of jungle fighting courtasy of the Japanese during the march on PM. Jungle fighting is about as polar opposite from desert warfare as you can get and it showed during this stage.

after learning by doing....the Oz troops became the best jungle fighters of the war, but not before the school of hard knocks

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Post #: 51

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:30:23 PM

JohnK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Cat

I know in PACWAR you got the Americal Division very early. It was not anything you could go on the offensive but it was enough to garrison SOPAC until the bigger Marine Divisions started showing up? Wonder why that division isn't even in the game?

The Americal Division is in the game, it appears on the West Coast 60 days after Dec. 7........(bumped the EXP up from 70 in UV to 75 in WITP too.)

The first RCT of what later became the Americal Division sailed from New York on Jan. 23 and didn't arrive in Australia until Feb. 26......so the WITP arrival date on the West Coast (We don't have a NYC so it has to be abstracted) is ENTIRELY reasonable.

(in reply to Black Cat)

Post #: 52

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:32:12 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arnir

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

But the FIRST full US division available for SOPAC is supposed to be the Americal Division. Well before the 1st Marines and damned sure WAAAAYYYY before the 2nd Marines. And I don't know where the hell that one is??? Maybe has yet to arrive (1/20/42)? But again, the US MUST have at least one full division or it's equivalent in regiments or brigades to adequately garrison SOPAC early on for game ballance......

From the database editor it appears that the American Division (Location 2874) arrive 420207 (which I assume is Feb 7 1942). I haven't figured out where, however. It is attached to SOPAC, so would that mean it arrives wherever SOPAC HQ is then located?

OK, sounds about right, actually! I haven't really looked too much at the database. But a 7 Feb arrival is about right for the Americal. But no way in hell is the 2nd Marines supposed to be available before late 1942. Question is, for game balance, is doing away with the 2nd Marines until historically available in Oct/Nov 42, and depending on the Americal, which will not get to SOPAC bases until around the 20th of Feb, going to keep the more adventerous Japanese player from relatiscally taking Suvo and garrisonning it with 2 Div's and 4 squandrons of Nells, and such by Feb 20???

(in reply to Arnir)

Post #: 53

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:32:54 PM

JohnK

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The other issue as I noted on the OOB thread is I can find no evidence of 5th NZ Brigade ever being in the Pacific, or New Zealand, during the Pacific War.

Someone claimed it was brought home after North Africa, but I've found multiple references to it in the official NZ history fighting in Italy....Monte Cassino, etc.

(in reply to hithere)

Post #: 54

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:47:01 PM

JohnK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

OK, sounds about right, actually! I haven't really looked too much at the database. But a 7 Feb arrival is about right for the Americal. But no way in hell is the 2nd Marines supposed to be available before late 1942. Question is, for game balance, is doing away with the 2nd Marines until historically available in Oct/Nov 42, and depending on the Americal, which will not get to SOPAC bases until around the 20th of Feb, going to keep the more adventerous Japanese player from relatiscally taking Suvo and garrisonning it with 2 Div's and 4 squandrons of Nells, and such by Feb 20???

Eh, it's more complicated than that; ONE Regiment of the 2nd Mar Div DID ship out from San Diego on Jan 1 1942 and was sent to Suva.

The issues with the 2nd Mar Div in the OOB are less the sort of obvious error the 3rd NZ Division was, and more a very non-optimal solution to a complex situation.......

Realistically that one Regiment of the 2nd Marines is going to beat the Japanese to Suva even if the Japanese want Fiji, but it will be a near-run thing. (A Regiment of the 1st Marines shipped out for Suva as well on April 2 1942, btw...)

The Allies were just as paranoid about Fiji as you are :-) Frantically were tossing stuff there as soon as they could.

That 2nd Mar Div Regiment + the 8th NZ Bde is going to be a tough nut to crack for the Japanese.

Of course, the entire 2nd Mar Div + the 8th NZ Bde is a hopeless nut to crack for the Japanese.

It's pretty clear the optimal Japanese strategy after their initial conquests was perhaps to forget the Kido Butai excursion into the Indian Ocean, the half-assed Port Moresby attack with 2 carriers, and forget Midway, and make the earliest possible push for New Caledonia/Fiji/Tonga supported by the full 6 Carrier KB.

WITH an accurate land OOB for the Allies (allowing a regiment of the 2nd Mar Div to be sent Jan. 1, Changing 3rd NZ Inf Div to a Brigade that turns up in late 42, probably deleting 5th NZ Bde completely) the fight for SOPAC is a very tricky, very close, very terrifying, very interesting thing. As it should be.

Get it wrong either way, by not very much, and its either a Japanese cakewalk or a hopelessly impenetrable mass of Allied troops. The great thing about the historical OOB is it's the balanced one.

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 55

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:55:29 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnK

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZOOMIE1980

OK, sounds about right, actually! I haven't really looked too much at the database. But a 7 Feb arrival is about right for the Americal. But no way in hell is the 2nd Marines supposed to be available before late 1942. Question is, for game balance, is doing away with the 2nd Marines until historically available in Oct/Nov 42, and depending on the Americal, which will not get to SOPAC bases until around the 20th of Feb, going to keep the more adventerous Japanese player from relatiscally taking Suvo and garrisonning it with 2 Div's and 4 squandrons of Nells, and such by Feb 20???

Eh, it's more complicated than that; ONE Regiment of the 2nd Mar Div DID ship out from San Diego on Jan 1 1942 and was sent to Suva.

The issues with the 2nd Mar Div in the OOB are less the sort of obvious error the 3rd NZ Division was, and more a very non-optimal solution to a complex situation.......

Realistically that one Regiment of the 2nd Marines is going to beat the Japanese to Suva even if the Japanese want Fiji, but it will be a near-run thing. (A Regiment of the 1st Marines shipped out for Suva as well on April 2 1942, btw...)

The Allies were just as paranoid about Fiji as you are :-) Frantically were tossing stuff there as soon as they could.

That 2nd Mar Div Regiment + the 8th NZ Bde is going to be a tough nut to crack for the Japanese.

Of course, the entire 2nd Mar Div + the 8th NZ Bde is a hopeless nut to crack for the Japanese.

It's pretty clear the optimal Japanese strategy after their initial conquests was perhaps to forget the Kido Butai excursion into the Indian Ocean, the half-assed Port Moresby attack with 2 carriers, and forget Midway, and make the earliest possible push for New Caledonia/Fiji/Tonga supported by the full 6 Carrier KB.

WITH an accurate land OOB for the Allies (allowing a regiment of the 2nd Mar Div to be sent Jan. 1, Changing 3rd NZ Inf Div to a Brigade that turns up in late 42, probably deleting 5th NZ Bde completely) the fight for SOPAC is a very tricky, very close, very terrifying, very interesting thing. As it should be.

Get it wrong either way, by not very much, and its either a Japanese cakewalk or a hopelessly impenetrable mass of Allied troops. The great thing about the historical OOB is it's the balanced one.

And it is here where the realities of programming may be butting heads with precise historical OOB accuracy. They probably (I'm guessing here) cannot bring these divisions in piecemeal the way things actually happenned in history and have them "combinable" later on. So do they simply wait to give us the the 2nd Marines until the entire division was finally together, historically, or NEVER give us the actual "2nd Marine Inf Div" and instead give us a stretched out set of brigades that cannot ever be joined later because of the limitiations of the programming design or database design???

(in reply to JohnK)

Post #: 56

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:57:17 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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And it sounds to me like they are going to opt for a patch that brings the entire 2nd (and maybe the 1st) in in their entirety but bring them in in a highly degraded state, like most of the Base Support groups are in at the start....

(in reply to ZOOMIE1980)

Post #: 57

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 9:59:33 PM

hithere

Posts: 432
Joined: 4/13/2004
From: Atlanta
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the Americal Division is def in the game, i am at 5 FEB 42 and got at lease 1 element of it a turn or two ago. I am at work so i can not find out exactly what it was. I think that the solution matrix came up with is prob the best and most accurate one that the game will prob allow. it kinda replicates "building the div". ofcourse it will be much faster. I don't know much about the Oz and NZ forces. It does seem that even with the 3rd not there, the japanese player would still be hard pressed to invade fiji, even with the KB availible. at some point they would have to break off at least some of the carriers and that will invite a allied strike....also...do they have the gas to really get the shipping and fleets there? It seems that it would be a prime canidate to cut off the supplys by hitting right in the middle ala lunga...then just let the forces in Fiji die on the vine....prob, what? mid 43? Karchi could generate the supplies, at lease enough to keep them alive

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(in reply to JohnK)

Post #: 58

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 10:06:48 PM

JohnK

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I can't see Fiji being taken without a Japane base on Guadalcanal, and likely in the Hebrides and taking Noumea...and of course we're all aware of the Japanese base-building problems......

So they likely can't do it instantly.....

The problem is the whole 2nd Marines at the start of the game (or even on Jan. 1 42) makes SOPAC impenetrable for the Japanese, but if you don't have at least one Marine Regiment avaliable for SOPAC on Jan. 1, SOPAC really isn't defendable.

I don't know about the starting at reduced strength and build up thing...I'll have to see how it works in practice.....

(in reply to hithere)

Post #: 59

RE: 3rd NZ and 2nd Marine Divisions? WAY too early? - 7/12/2004 10:13:12 PM

ZOOMIE1980

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Joined: 4/9/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnK

I can't see Fiji being taken without a Japane base on Guadalcanal, and likely in the Hebrides and taking Noumea...and of course we're all aware of the Japanese base-building problems......

So they likely can't do it instantly.....

The problem is the whole 2nd Marines at the start of the game (or even on Jan. 1 42) makes SOPAC impenetrable for the Japanese, but if you don't have at least one Marine Regiment avaliable for SOPAC on Jan. 1, SOPAC really isn't defendable.

I don't know about the starting at reduced strength and build up thing...I'll have to see how it works in practice.....

It's working quite nice with the base forces. Most of these, like in Australia, start out with 12, 13, or 14 Aviation Support but grow over time to have 30. You click on the toggle button on the bottom of the screen to show current level or its "maximum strength on paper". And that reinforcement rate is highly dependent on the state of the base it is at. So if you got a very badly depleted 2nd Marines when the first historical Rgt appeared and placed it on a small, poorly supplied base, it probably stay depleted a long time. But put it on a big, well supplied base and in six months it could be at or near full strength. I think this system is pretty well modeled in the game.

(in reply to JohnK)

Post #: 60

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