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Core army buying method - any drawback?

 
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Core army buying method - any drawback? - 1/29/2002 5:20:00 PM   
Nextor

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 1/28/2002
Status: offline 		Hello All! I tried the following to increase the size of the core army during the campaigns: Before the first mission, I bought only some engineer platoons and 5-6 cheap tanks (PZ II, if I remember well). This conserved me a lot of resource points - I spent this on cheap units like mules and trucks. After the first battle (where I kept the mules far behind the combatarea), I could improve these "trash" units to real army units, because I received a good amount of resource points to fix my army. Do you know any drawback related to this "trick"? For example: Does this upgrade affects the combat values of the upgraded units? I can imagine, that a mule "driver" can't fight well in a PZ III... Does the computer buys more units to the enemy because I have more platoons? Can these units receive the experince without any restriction? ps: maybe it can be a cheat, but it can be hard at the first missions, because I don't have very good units.

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- 1/29/2002 7:29:00 PM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		All's fair in love and war.

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Post #: 2
- 1/29/2002 8:04:00 PM   
chpo

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Dalby, Sweden
Status: offline 		This was more or less my standard trick in the old Steel Panthers campaigns.
Now though, I guess it would depend on which campign you are playing. I tried to start a long war campaign as German from Jan 39 and got 3800 points to spend!! I backed out as something must be wrong there...

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Post #: 3
- 1/29/2002 8:57:00 PM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline 		SPWaW is a game as much as a simulation. If you are playing yourself and enjoying it there is no such thing as cheating. Before you could set your battle points purchasing placeholder units was the standard work around to allow a larger core but conserve limited initial buy points. Now you can set the battle points to max in the preferences before you start your campaign so this is not needed. However, you can still do this but there is no drawback to doing it.

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Post #: 4
- 1/29/2002 11:08:00 PM   
lnp4668

 

Posts: 517
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Arlington, TX, USA
Status: offline 		In the long campaign the computer adjust its purchased based on the values of your units. So the more you have, the more the computer have.

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Post #: 5
- 1/29/2002 11:31:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Hmmmmm there is ooone drawback to all this stuff. When I start a camapign I purchase what they would have used in real life eh (or as close to what would have been used, within the confines of my own specific knowledge). Then I start the game and hope the computer has selected something that closely approximates a logical opposition force mix (something that is challenging but not stupid). And I fight the first battle assuming the game will get more difficult as time prgresses. And following battle one I use points to repair units that got damaged, and if lucky upgrade a few units as they were upgraded logically in real life too. For instance the next mark version of my support Panzer IVs maybe if playing a German side. Now to start off with junk units, solely cause they waste space, and allow you freedom to scam the game.......why the heck are you playing Steel Panthers in the first place? Shouldnt you be out in the back yard with some plastic army men?
This silliness only confirms you are not seeeeeeriously interested in seriously gaming out history. Or at least you dont consider yourself good enough to challenge yourself honestly. Yes I said honestly. Scamming the game, sheeeesh. When I win its because I bested the game at its own game. Not because I found a way to scam it. I suppose you save the game too after each turn so you can reload it after each turn to ensure your turn always resolves in your favour. Can any of you guys reeeeeeeally look yourself in the mirror and say you have any real skill? I like Steel Panthers because I get to defacto play ASL without having to deal with a lack of opponents. But with this sort of strategy, man you guys would be sheep against me in ASL where you have to fight a logical battle with logical limits and no capacity to scam the situation. Or have I misread the reason for using junk units in your opening core unit?

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Post #: 6
- 1/30/2002 12:26:00 AM   
achappelle

 

Posts: 150
Joined: 5/11/2001
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline 		The reason I used this "cheat" was so I could play larger battles, ie instead of battalion sized, brigade sized. Because the AI purchased a proportionate amount of equipment to your force's value, the challenge level would remain relatively the same. It seems a little condescending to say "how can you look in the mirror", remember, SPWAW for all it's technical and historical merit is a war-"game" game being just as key a component. And, the purpose of a game is to bring enjoyment.

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Post #: 7
- 1/30/2002 12:41:00 AM   
lnp4668

 

Posts: 517
Joined: 11/10/2000
From: Arlington, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Aleksandr Morozov:
The reason I used this "cheat" was so I could play larger battles, ie instead of battalion sized, brigade sized. Because the AI purchased a proportionate amount of equipment to your force's value, the challenge level would remain relatively the same. It seems a little condescending to say "how can you look in the mirror", remember, SPWAW for all it's technical and historical merit is a war-"game" game being just as key a component. And, the purpose of a game is to bring enjoyment.
Before you sets up the long campaign, you could go to the preference screen and sets the amount of points available for your force. This maybe better because then you would have a good fighting force on hand since the beginning.

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"My friends, remember this, that there are no bad herbs, and no bad men; there are only bad cultivators." Les Miserables

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Post #: 8
- 1/30/2002 1:23:00 AM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Hmmmmm there is ooone drawback to all this stuff. Now to start off with junk units, solely cause they waste space, and allow you freedom to scam the game.......why the heck are you playing Steel Panthers in the first place? Shouldnt you be out in the back yard with some plastic army men?
This silliness only confirms you are not seeeeeeriously interested in seriously gaming out history. Or at least you dont consider yourself good enough to challenge yourself honestly. Yes I said honestly. [snip] Or have I misread the reason for using junk units in your opening core unit?
Les, I must say that this post does not seem to be in the spirit of the SPWaW/Matrix community. We all have our own reasons for doing things (whether its wanting a OOB spec changed or padding our unit lists) and generally we respect others reasons and views even when we disagree. There are numerous reasons for padding the list beyond the orginal work around described. For example I might want to grow my core to reflect changing TO&E structure over time. For example, in the beginning of WWII the GE do not have assault guns so I buy a place holder unit then when the STUGs are available I add them to reflect the fact that the GE historically did change their TOE to add them into existing units. Thank you and have a nice day.

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Never take counsel of your fears.

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Post #: 9
- 1/30/2002 3:23:00 AM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		To increase the number of points available just hit the max points button on the buy screen, or go to the preference page and crank it. Simple. I don't need place holders. If I want to have assault guns when available (and I love assault guns) I just replace the infantry howitzers I purchased as my battalion artillery, and the ones that came with the infantry company with them. If I want SP morters or artillery, I replace the on-board 81s I got at the start. Some of those extra recon platoon I bought will make lovely TD platoons, don't you think? While I don't disparage the practice as I did when I started playing the game only a few months ago, I figure if you're going to think that far ahead, you sould at least get some use out of the units you get now. What's the point of bying a rather worthless wagon group when upgrading the Btln or Co motor pool vehicles is just as easy.

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Challenge

War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.

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Post #: 10
- 1/30/2002 7:33:00 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		"Not in the spirit of the Matrix community" heheh you have to be joking me heheh But all my comments were honestly stated for reasonable reasons. Now I like the comment, to the effect, purchasing with adequate points, things that will one day evolve into what you wanted in a realistic way. This shows a passion for gaming out the event in a way worthy of the term "simulation". But buying donkeys intentionally to trade for Tiger tanks later, that is reeeeeally lame. So what if its an available game mechanic.
Last time I encountered that sort of logic was when I saw a young lad using aaall the pieces of his war game all at once (Battle of the Bulge game I think). He didnt see anything wrong with just playing one set of counters versus the others (every single counter regardless of whether it was used at the start or not). Never occurred to him that he was in no way recreating anything. But to each there own. A game is pointless if it isnt fun to the user in some manner.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 11
- 1/30/2002 3:55:00 PM   
Nextor

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 1/28/2002
Status: offline 		Let me write my comment about this trick... I don't want to play the game easier - if I want to play an easy game, then I create a scenario called German Tigers VS Russian Mules... My main reason to use this method, that I can't increase the number of my core forces during the campaign. I don't blame the game mechaninc about it - but I like to improve my army during the campaign (quality and quantity). I could imagine an option in v 8.0 at the preferences to switch on/off the core army expanding. I think it's not unrealistic (I don't want to initiate a flame war , and I like to see when my army evolves and will be stonger and larger if I win battles after battles - because I could conserve my troops and the industry keep pumping out the brand new armies. That is my only reason - I don't like to cheat any game. Except an FPS after a hard day

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Post #: 12
- 1/30/2002 8:18:00 PM   
Jackk

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 6/2/2000
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
But to each there own. A game is pointless if it isnt fun to the user in some manner.
And that is the best point of all

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Post #: 13
- 1/30/2002 10:10:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I suppose one point of confusion potentially stems from interpreting the term "Core Units". Its used specifically because, no matter the battle and no matter how many battles later, your core is after your "core". Otherwise the game would call it your "basis" or "starting point" or almost any manner of vague terminology. When playing a board game you start with a set sum of forces and you gain some lose sum based off the situation being modelled. Now admittedly playing a "Core Unit" implies you are creating a personal force (something that never really existed historically either). So the above comment loses some of its impact. But I have played several (well actually a great many) scenarios where I was a bit frantic over how to achieve a mission, only to find several forces already there. And these forces were not part of my Core Units". I think this is the games way of augmenting your "Core Unit"; and it does a particularly good job of it. It lets you see whether your planning had any merits, when fighting through the various battles. Your score isnt going to do well if you begin a long drawn out process with junk units. Me I personally stake my entire campaign on doing well the first battle. If you blow it on the first battle, you spend the whole campaign picking up the pieces. Kinda like getting a job and then showing your employer how you suck during the first week eh. I have no problem with being alotted "additional" forces (who would have a problem with more eh). But "more units" is a basic and fundemental departure from what "Core Units" is all about. Wise choices reward you, poor choices punish you. If given a choice of "more units" or bonus "improvement points", I am taking the points every single time. I love using those points to fully repair damage after a battle. I also like getting a key upgrade to the next mark in a vehicle when the next version of a tank makes it worth it. Its a problem when veteran status gets temporarily lost when changing over, but converting from one version to the newer is sometimes worth it (sure I will take Panther G when I am able to replace my D models). If I was to be rewarded for a sterling combat record, I would like to have the same benefit they used in real life eh. The real world armies rewarded elan by status upgrades not making them bigger necessarily.
Personalities might get larger forces to control based on rank upgrades, but Steel Panthers is about small force tactics. I certainly dont want to run aaaaaall the units that fought, in an increasingly scope of action. Ike Started with a desk job. He ran North Africa, and eventually ended up second only to heads of state. Anyone up for running every tank in service of the Weastern Allies in Europe (god think of the turn length eh).
Yes I know that was extreme, but it shows a point brutally well. "Core Units" is about taking a force and making the best of it. A good beginning leads to a good ending with a bit of luck.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 14
- 1/30/2002 10:41:00 PM   
A_B

 

Posts: 296
Joined: 4/11/2001
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline 		A good trick, if you don't want a lot of mules hanging around, is to create 'placeholder units'. Make them the right type of unit, with no weapons and one guy (or vehicle), costing one point. You can even go so far as to make placeholder formations. Why do all this? well, you can start a campaign with one company. THen, after 6 or 7 battles, upgrade two 'placeholder' companies, to simulate being promoted. These companies will have better moral/exp. than newly purchased formations - gaining some sitting on the sidelines of previous battles, but should't have as much as your fighting core force. You can have additional placeholder formation representing assault gun companies and other attachments. THe reason to give them all a cost of 1 point is so they don't unbalance the AI's purchase too much. Why anyone would call this cheating is beyond me. It is merely adding a layer to the campaign. When you upgrade your units, the enemy AI automatically responds by being allowed more points (in a long campaign). This does strike me as a bit much in a prebuilt campiagn. Here i'll often buy some recce units, which can be used effectivly, or upgraded if the points become available. How can any of this be compared to saving between turns, in case you get pounded?

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Post #: 15
- 1/31/2002 12:06:00 AM   
challenge

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		I understand the idea of starting with fewer units to do the increased rank concept -- actually that's what I did with SL. I don't see anyway to actually lower the rank of "me" -- the GHQ Commander. I tried the directions Wild Bill gives in the Scenario Design course, but that only seems to work when you start the design from scratch and not with the existing campaigns. How do you lower the Col's ability to command his troops, (Inf, Arm, Art ratings), and the number of C&C points carried or generated between turns? These are important since the Company Commander is often a Lt., or Capt. Sometimes you may get a major as a Co Commander, but if you reach Lt. Col, and still command just a company, I'd start wondering who you ticked off -- and suggest an alternate line of work. The problem isn't play philosphy, it's game design. Since the game was built around the Battallion level, it doesn't easily lend itself to Company or Brigade level organization. It's the main reason I quit thinking of the practice discussed here as a real cheating issue, I just think of all those points and units I can't use to make life easier for me and more miserable for "them". In addition, on most military history or organization sites I've been to, the Btln is considered to be the smallest, self-sustaining tactical combat unit. Anything smaller, while tactical, is not considered self-sufficient. [ January 30, 2002: Message edited by: Challenge ]



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Challenge

War is unhealthy for die-stamped cardboard and other paper products.

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Post #: 16
- 1/31/2002 1:14:00 AM   
Charles2222


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Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

But buying donkeys intentionally to trade for Tiger tanks later, that is reeeeeally lame.
IMO, this is one of the major drawbacks of SPWAW in comparison to SPWW2. I've been playing SPWW2 for about the past month, and from what I've seen it doesn't look like I can ever get over 200pts. to upgrade with. What's more, you can add to your core at anytime. That's right, ADD to it. Being able to add isn't that terribly signifigant if you don't get all that many points to upgrade in the first place. I'll tell you, I've had a ball playing as the USSR and taking quite a few losses, to where I cannot replace everything (Well I might've been able to, only I decided I had to get one KV1 in the 2nd battle). I think it's likely that as your core grows in points, so will your upgrade points, so there's certainly something to be said for actually trying to make units more expensive as opposed to primarily fixing things all the time (and yes, I have gone into battles with a number of tanks out of action. It does make it fascinating when not ALL of my units, no matter how poor they are, cannot be relied upon to always be there if I take quite a few losses). Personally I think their starting replacement points should be between 75-125pts. higher and although SPWAW's pricing is quite different, it's nothing like the lavish amount given in SPWAW, where your only problem upgarding, MIGHT be the first and second battles. I just love getting a more modest amount, where EVERY SINGLE POINT is very important, so maybe you don't repair the one man loss on some units, or skip an entire upgrade on a platoon because the tank you're really waiting for is three monthes after that upgrade. You will pay for foolish spending in SPWW2. I think the SPWAW '39 German replacement rate, for example, should be cut down to maybe 500. I think in V6.1 it's hovering around 1200. Also, I don't think the outcome of your last battle has anything to do with your replacement points in SPWAW, but in SPWW2 it does. Get the snot beat out of you in SPWW2 (meaning losing a lot of units in this case), and it may be a while before you field your full complement again.

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Post #: 17
- 1/31/2002 1:19:00 AM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
"Not in the spirit of the Matrix community" heheh you have to be joking me heheh But all my comments were honestly stated for reasonable reasons.
[snip]

No I was not. While your comments may have been honest in your eyes they were an ad homin (sp?) attack on the poster (can you look in the mirror...) and not focused on the merits of the technique discussed.

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Never take counsel of your fears.

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Post #: 18
- 1/31/2002 10:10:00 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Normally I detest specifically replying to comments by singling out specific people, because I have yet to encounter a person that was unable to consider it anything but a personal attack.
Thats why I put the smiley in my comment. I dont normally use the things, but I wanted to go the additional distance to hopefully not give offense (guess it didnt help). But as Larry wrote here... No I was not [joking]. While your comments may have been honest in your eyes they were an ad homin (sp?) attack on the poster (can you look in the mirror...) and not focused on the merits of the technique discussed. I suspect Larry was annoyed at least. Sorry Larry But that is as far as I am going. I like myself fine (even if the reflection in the mirror wont make the ladies swoon heheh). It wasnt a personal attack, heck I didnt intend it as one. I made the post as relevant as why my capacity allows. But I certainly lose no sleep over those that cant fathom my purposes. Now if anyone reeeeeeeally wants to see what a personal attack looks like, ask me to send a private email and I will be most happy to illustrate the depths of my linguistic skills to them, for demonstrative purposes only of course Has been my occasion to note though, that people are way to sensitive to people making comments with regards to their comments. Its sad that the only place the term SPWAW appears in my post here, is here in this sentence. But while this will be seen as a defense post at best (not my intent), I only wrote it because, well, I dont want anyone thinking I have ill feelings, but additionally, I dont wish to have anyone thinking I harbour ill feelings.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 19
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